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pretre wrote:You might want to research what exists a bit before making declarative statements.

SotW is 12" and roll 3d6 for all psychic. Perils on double 1 or 6s, fail as normal.
Eldar have the only remaining unlimited range psychic defense with Runes of Warding. All opponent psykers roll 3d6 and peril on any roll above 12 (in addition to normal).
Gloom Prism is for any unit within 3", not model. All it takes is one model in the unit to be in range for the entire unit to have the gloom prism effect.
DE have Malys (who is immune to psychic powers) and CoM (every psyker within 3d6" takes a leadership test or is removed from play, no save).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Nids have Deathleaper as well. A less popular choice, but he can lower the leadership of an enemy psyker. Makes it a pain to try to make your psychic test on a 7.

Dark Angels have an unlimited range psychic hood as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:And you stubbornly refuse to understand just how derpy a 10 man warp quake cabale squad is. Combat squads gives you double the coverage, typically on a unit that's used to hold objectives or on a squad that can move to almost anywhere at will.
By using the max 2" coherency, you effectively lock-off an area of about 30"+ that's now an auto-mishap! With just 5 guys... Sure, that's not OTT in any way. Now double that, and Daemons are fethed by just 10 models and have 0 ways to counter. Plus it seems you fail to take into account that the quake bubble forces the daemon player to try and land 7" back from the quakezone to avoid scattering into it!
Yep, that's brilliant games design right there!

Powers like Fortune, Shrouding, Catalyst, Null Zone can be delt with and don't radically alter the entire mechanics of the game. Fortitude & Warp Quake especially are absolute b ds to deal with, to the point of being broken against armies with little to no way of shutting them down.

If you combat squad then you are testing on an 8. And that's not always feasible given a KP mission. Ok, you are putting forward a list of stuff that could shut down daemons. Here's another list:
What if the daemons go first? Then there is no time for warp quake.
What if you fail your psychic test? Then you are exposing an entire flank and giving up that five man squad for dead.
What if they plant their first unit and then bring in everyone else around the icon? Then your power did nothing but delay the assault for a turn.

Everyone seems to be looking at only the negatives here, but there's a 50% chance that warp quake won't even be usable against daemons.

Well be fair now gk dont really have a lot of templates outside of henchman for spiders and theyre mc who wont get doubled out.. template at best is A wound. SitW is very good vs gk since theyre powers are mostly cc. The range on it is 12 or 18 for swarmlord. Eldars covers the entire board. You know whats works real good too for de anti psyker? A dl to the face or 118 plus splinter shots.

I was actually referring to IG then. Weaken resolve, I find, is a stupidly powerful ability.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I was actually referring to IG then. Weaken resolve, I find, is a stupidly powerful ability.

Only if you run huge 500+ point deathstar units that aren't fearless. Otherwise, it is good but not overpowered.

pretre wrote:

SotW is 12" and roll 3d6 for all psychic. Perils on double 1 or 6s, fail as normal. Good against GK force weapons, not so good at anything outside that. Like that SW spell.

Eldar have the only remaining unlimited range psychic defense with Runes of Warding. All opponent psykers roll 3d6 and peril on any roll above 12 (in addition to normal). Ok, that's really good

Gloom Prism is for any unit within 3", not model. All it takes is one model in the unit to be in range for the entire unit to have the gloom prism effect. Still doesn't change the fact that you have to be close to the spyder to use it, meaning that if you want to block, say, weaken resolve, the spyders and the squad within the bubble are going to take template hits

DE have Malys (who is immune to psychic powers) and CoM (every psyker within 3d6" takes a leadership test or is removed from play, no save). Not really reliable is it though? Not only do you have to hope that it goes far enough, you then have to hope that the psykers fail their test on a 2d6. Still, it would be absolutely hilarious to use against GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Nids have Deathleaper as well. A less popular choice, but he can lower the leadership of an enemy psyker. Makes it a pain to try to make your psychic test on a 7. Yeah, I miss that back when I could use pariahs. Oh well.

You still didn't list any psychic defenses for demons and chaos, which is a pretty big deal, considering how psi powers come from chaos!
Now, you have to understand my argument. Its not that GK are OP, its that Psi powers in general are OP, due to the fact that it takes fairly little to have some pretty devasting results (weaken resolve, maw of the wolf thingy), and that there are few (non IoM) armies that can counter it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I was actually referring to IG then. Weaken resolve, I find, is a stupidly powerful ability.

Only if you run huge 500+ point deathstar units that aren't fearless. Otherwise, it is good but not overpowered.

You fire WR at an enemy squad, reduce them past 50% casualties and they run off the board, unable to regroup. A bit of a cheap shot, don't you think?

Cthulu makes a good point about Psychic Powers. The problem is they are absurdly good against some armies (CSM, Orks, Daemons, Sisters, D Eldard) who have no psychic defenses at all (I am excluding Kharn/Malys as they are not actually psychic defense)

Necrons have limited psychic defense from their Spyders. Sadly all the armies I play have no access to psychic defense (Sisters and Daemons) which makes that matchup EXTREMLY difficult. Even a single Dreadknight in a non-optimized list with a jump pack can wreck havoc with Dark Excommunication and a Heavy Incinerator. The fact that the only AP 1 shooting to take it down is the same shooting I need to use to open up vehicles at range is just the icing on the cake!

I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

pretre wrote:I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

Yeah, ok, I was a bit wrong that IoM were the only ones that had psi-defense...they are the ones with decent psi defence
With the exception of Eldar and Nids, which are both fairly effective, of course.

There are only two races that I could think of that have regroup shenanigans - SM and nids. Beyond that I have no idea.

pretre wrote:I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

I disagree with the presumption that all races should be forced to utilize psychic defense to be competitive. I shouldn't be forced into an offensive librarian in every marine build just to counter something like backfield fortitude. That creates a situation wherein a significant investment of points is pressed into a mandatory component. If every marine army has to spend ~300 points on a librarian and supporting elements to counter the direct threat of GK (and GK only) psychic spam then it's a poor situation in the meta. It increases the prevalence of modular segmentation in army creation (you can already see it happen due to the metal box meta) and it makes for a less diverse playing field.

What makes it terrible is that players are essentially forced into the concept of modular in built psychic defense blocs in all lists specifically because of a single overprevalent and metabreaking army. That implies something beyond simple "preparedness". It implies that the meta for the game had/has to change specifically to counter a type of threat that didn't previously exist and which seems to trump most others.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

I disagree with the presumption that all races should be forced to utilize psychic defense to be competitive. I shouldn't be forced into an offensive librarian in every marine build just to counter something like backfield fortitude. That creates a situation wherein a significant investment of points is pressed into a mandatory component. If every marine army has to spend ~300 points on a librarian and supporting elements to counter the direct threat of GK (and GK only) psychic spam then it's a poor situation in the meta. It increases the prevalence of modular segmentation in army creation (you can already see it happen due to the metal box meta) and it makes for a less diverse playing field.

What makes it terrible is that players are essentially forced into the concept of modular in built psychic defense blocs in all lists specifically because of a single overprevalent and metabreaking army. That implies something beyond simple "preparedness". It implies that the meta for the game had/has to change specifically to counter a type of threat that didn't previously exist and which seems to trump most others.

Thats like saying I shouldnt be forced to take psyfleman because an IG player sits in a corner and shoots.

Actually your not forced into taking anything, I guess it depends if you see the value of other abilities and units.

itsonlyme wrote:Actually your not forced into taking anything, I guess it depends if you see the value of other abilities and units.

Exactly, I think that all armies should have some form of access to those things. Just as all armies should have some sort of access to anti-vehicle, anti-infantry, blahdeblah. The quality, cost and desire to take it will change depending on the list.

Tomb King wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:

Also, as I state repeatedly to anyone that will listen: "OP" is a sore loser's way of saying "I don't have the skill or the drive to make an army that can take this one".

Sigh... you should really read the thread before posting garbage like this because your basically calling over 50% of the people that voted in the thread sore losers. A lot of good players(skill) hate grey knights(drive) with a passion and regardless of what they do sometimes victory is just unachievable. Say you run against a draigowing and you have the tools to beat and you manage to pull off the win. The next round you run into Purifier spam and get smashed or even if you pull it off the following round could see henchman spam. If you can find me an army that can deal with all 3 of those builds while still be an all comer list against other armies let me know. As of right now such an army does not exist. That is why the general consensus agree they are over-powered because they have so many options available to them that if you build to handle them you have to cover such a wide variety of strong list that you could still hit a mismatch.

And I maintain what I said. If someone wants to make excuses for their inability to play well, and they blame how everything is stacked against them, or such and such combo is cheap, or such and such is OP, I will not play with TFG. Most players in my area are good players that take accountability for their wins and losses.

Personally, if I come up against something my army can't beat in a game, I want to play that person again because it's a challenge. Yeah, I might need to alter my list, but I'm not going to go cry about it.

pretre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Oh right, shadow of the warp. I forgot about that . what was the range though? 12" or 24"?
And what do eldar get?

Yes, the gloom prism. A glorious 3" bubble that invites pie plates if you try to use it. Very effective.

And DE...what do they have? Crucible of malediction isn't it? What does that do?

You might want to research what exists a bit before making declarative statements.

SotW is 12" and roll 3d6 for all psychic. Perils on double 1 or 6s, fail as normal.
Eldar have the only remaining unlimited range psychic defense with Runes of Warding. All opponent psykers roll 3d6 and peril on any roll above 12 (in addition to normal).
Gloom Prism is for any unit within 3", not model. All it takes is one model in the unit to be in range for the entire unit to have the gloom prism effect.
DE have Malys (who is immune to psychic powers) and CoM (every psyker within 3d6" takes a leadership test or is removed from play, no save).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Nids have Deathleaper as well. A less popular choice, but he can lower the leadership of an enemy psyker. Makes it a pain to try to make your psychic test on a 7.

I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

TheHarleqwin wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:

Also, as I state repeatedly to anyone that will listen: "OP" is a sore loser's way of saying "I don't have the skill or the drive to make an army that can take this one".

Sigh... you should really read the thread before posting garbage like this because your basically calling over 50% of the people that voted in the thread sore losers. A lot of good players(skill) hate grey knights(drive) with a passion and regardless of what they do sometimes victory is just unachievable. Say you run against a draigowing and you have the tools to beat and you manage to pull off the win. The next round you run into Purifier spam and get smashed or even if you pull it off the following round could see henchman spam. If you can find me an army that can deal with all 3 of those builds while still be an all comer list against other armies let me know. As of right now such an army does not exist. That is why the general consensus agree they are over-powered because they have so many options available to them that if you build to handle them you have to cover such a wide variety of strong list that you could still hit a mismatch.

And I maintain what I said. If someone wants to make excuses for their inability to play well, and they blame how everything is stacked against them, or such and such combo is cheap, or such and such is OP, I will not play with TFG. Most players in my area are good players that take accountability for their wins and losses.

Personally, if I come up against something my army can't beat in a game, I want to play that person again because it's a challenge. Yeah, I might need to alter my list, but I'm not going to go cry about it.

No real response is needed here but I will throw you a bone. Read your post and then walk over and look in the mirror. If you dont get it repeat the process until you do. It is based on perception and how you look at a situation and how a certain outcome or opinion of something is garnished. Your post is rude and makes you look like a... and really makes you look exactly like that which you claim others are.

Tomb King wrote:I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

DIP! Yeah, you passed the test TK. I intentionally left that one out to see if anyone was paying attention.

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

DIP! Yeah, you passed the test TK. I intentionally left that one out to see if anyone was paying attention.

Um tk was a smidge late. It was already brought up.

Draigo wrote:

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

DIP! Yeah, you passed the test TK. I intentionally left that one out to see if anyone was paying attention.

Um tk was a smidge late. It was already brought up.

Awww, sunova... Sorry Dok, my bad. TK, your test passing is removed. Dok, has passed the test instead.

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

DIP! Yeah, you passed the test TK. I intentionally left that one out to see if anyone was paying attention.

Um tk was a smidge late. It was already brought up.

Awww, sunova... Sorry Dok, my bad. TK, your test passing is removed. Dok, has passed the test instead.

Ya i totally got . A shame I like passing test. ... I even have a dark angels army.

Tomb King wrote:Ya i totally got . A shame I like passing test. ... I even have a dark angels army.

Makes sense... I think that the Interwebs says DA are bad too.

Draigo wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

I disagree with the presumption that all races should be forced to utilize psychic defense to be competitive. I shouldn't be forced into an offensive librarian in every marine build just to counter something like backfield fortitude. That creates a situation wherein a significant investment of points is pressed into a mandatory component. If every marine army has to spend ~300 points on a librarian and supporting elements to counter the direct threat of GK (and GK only) psychic spam then it's a poor situation in the meta. It increases the prevalence of modular segmentation in army creation (you can already see it happen due to the metal box meta) and it makes for a less diverse playing field.

What makes it terrible is that players are essentially forced into the concept of modular in built psychic defense blocs in all lists specifically because of a single overprevalent and metabreaking army. That implies something beyond simple "preparedness". It implies that the meta for the game had/has to change specifically to counter a type of threat that didn't previously exist and which seems to trump most others.

Thats like saying I shouldnt be forced to take psyfleman because an IG player sits in a corner and shoots.

Thats correct. It is. Because guard mech is also metabreaking and kind of stupid. If guard mech and GK pally spam lists weren't universally viable and plainly superior to standard all comers lists tournaments would be a lot more varied and a lot more enjoyable. Blood angels and necrons would be all over the place. Tyranids wouldn't have to hide in an abandoned Guatemala prison hoping sixth comes soon. Daemons wouldn't feel like their tournament results are purely based on the number of gray knight players that they face.

A good metagame has a lot of variety. One that is damaged has universal trends (mech spam) and tends to distill to a few monobuilds. This is a visible effect in almost any game system and it's easy to see in this one.

Nevermind.,..

itsonlyme wrote:Actually your not forced into taking anything, I guess it depends if you see the value of other abilities and units.

Thats correct, no one is forcing you to attempt to make an army that is viable in competitive play. Such an attempt does in fact force a few things by it's nature though.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Draigo wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:I don't disagree that psychic powers are powerful and that all races should have two of the following three things: psychic defense, offense and counters.

I disagree with your earlier, untrue, assertions that no one but IoM has defense, etc so on.

Re: WR, you have to use that unit plus however other units in your army to get them under 50% and hope they are near a board edge since it only lasts for that player turn. And hope they don't have some regroup shenanigans. It isn't foolproof or overpowered. Good, yes.

I disagree with the presumption that all races should be forced to utilize psychic defense to be competitive. I shouldn't be forced into an offensive librarian in every marine build just to counter something like backfield fortitude. That creates a situation wherein a significant investment of points is pressed into a mandatory component. If every marine army has to spend ~300 points on a librarian and supporting elements to counter the direct threat of GK (and GK only) psychic spam then it's a poor situation in the meta. It increases the prevalence of modular segmentation in army creation (you can already see it happen due to the metal box meta) and it makes for a less diverse playing field.

What makes it terrible is that players are essentially forced into the concept of modular in built psychic defense blocs in all lists specifically because of a single overprevalent and metabreaking army. That implies something beyond simple "preparedness". It implies that the meta for the game had/has to change specifically to counter a type of threat that didn't previously exist and which seems to trump most others.

Thats like saying I shouldnt be forced to take psyfleman because an IG player sits in a corner and shoots.

Thats correct. It is. Because guard mech is also metabreaking and kind of stupid. If guard mech and GK pally spam lists weren't universally viable and plainly superior to standard all comers lists tournaments would be a lot more varied and a lot more enjoyable. Blood angels and necrons would be all over the place. Tyranids wouldn't have to hide in an abandoned Guatemala prison hoping sixth comes soon. Daemons wouldn't feel like their tournament results are purely based on the number of gray knight players that they face.

A good metagame has a lot of variety. One that is damaged has universal trends and tends to distill to a few monobuilds. This is a visible effect in almost any game system and it's easy to see in this one.

The difference between GK and IG are the following:
Cost aka more easily obtained (IG cost you easilly 500+ to get competitive the higher up builds might even close in on 1000)
Psychic Defense in GK (This is the one real drawback for IG... especially foot list)
Fortitude giving vehicles the ability to ignore shaken/stunned results
Chimera's which people argue are OP are available to both armies
Guard have more template weapons but GK can send out more high strength shooting while still having competitive builds.

Guard can be broken as well. I know this, I have played games where my opponents could not win if I played my army correctly. ie... nids loosing all of the MC's so I can sit in my vehicles all game etc... However, the GK>IG is still apparent when compared to what can be done with and against the army.

@TK: You missed the range advantage. It was a good quick summary though.

Odds of psychic power working against a psychic hood:

LD 10
21 possibilities out of 36: 58.3%

LD 9
15 out of 36: 41.7%

LD 8
10 out of 36: 27.8%

@Tomb King

One thing to also remember. IG has been doing it since their latest book dropped and continue to heavy influence tournaments as much as any gk list.

Also shot saturation ig can put into a target is obscene. I don't care if you have shrouding or not thats a dead storm raider or land raider. Chimera is a tough call because those dont really play a factor in most lists aside from coteaz.

The only army who can shoot with IG is de and they cause a whole new kinda wth.

DE, IG and long fang spam cause everyone shift things in their list because you cant just sit and let them shoot you.

pretre wrote:@TK: You missed the range advantage. It was a good quick summary though.

Yes I suppose IG can bring up to 240" range.... like that would ever be needed... or even unlimited range with the deathstrike.
IG player: Ide like to shoot table three...
Players on table 3: JUDGE!

Draigo wrote:@Tomb King

One thing to also remember. IG has been doing it since their latest book dropped and continue to heavy influence tournaments as much as any gk list.

Also shot saturation ig can put into a target is obscene. I don't care if you have shrouding or not thats a dead storm raider or land raider. Chimera is a tough call because those dont really play a factor in most lists aside from coteaz.

The only army who can shoot with IG is de and they cause a whole new kinda wth.

DE, IG and long fang spam cause everyone shift things in their list because you cant just sit and let them shoot you.

Dark eldar can really put the hurt on someone but they are just as bad as any alpha strike army. If things go bad well then they go bad. Dark eldar have no psychic defense and have no armor value above 11. That means a heavy bolter is worth its weight in gold vs them or even worse dirt cheap pysback with TL HB.

The three powerhouse armies are SW, IG, and GW.

At the very least, they are all top tier.

SW: Due to low points costs on units, powerful psyker ability (JOTWW), good anti psyker

IG: Lots of high powered, cheap mech, powerful psyker Ability (Weaken resolve)

GK: Lots of high powered, cheap S8 shots from psyfilemen, good powers, main reason for power being FOC shenanigans with purifiers.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:The three powerhouse armies are SW, IG, and GW.

Totally lol'ed!

pretre wrote:

itsonlyme wrote:Actually your not forced into taking anything, I guess it depends if you see the value of other abilities and units.

Exactly, I think that all armies should have some form of access to those things. Just as all armies should have some sort of access to anti-vehicle, anti-infantry, blahdeblah. The quality, cost and desire to take it will change depending on the list.

Well I think all armies could use some sort of commander like the GM who opens up new tactical options, Its something I really think the chapter master is really missing out on :( I do think a lot of grey knight players dismiss to much of the book without giving said units much thought, just look at Draigo's comments

itsonlyme wrote:

pretre wrote:

itsonlyme wrote:Actually your not forced into taking anything, I guess it depends if you see the value of other abilities and units.

Exactly, I think that all armies should have some form of access to those things. Just as all armies should have some sort of access to anti-vehicle, anti-infantry, blahdeblah. The quality, cost and desire to take it will change depending on the list.

Well I think all armies could use some sort of commander like the GM who opens up new tactical options, Its something I really think the chapter master is really missing out on :( I do think a lot of grey knight players dismiss to much of the book without giving said units much thought, just look at Draigo's comments

Well the deal with strike and some of the less popular is you get to hear about filling your list with warp quake, take purifiers then listen to how broken they are, etc. Plus gm are very good though you can take them for lower pt games that Draigo is just too much. But then you hear about peoples dislike of rad grenades and the wargear they can take. You really can't make anyone that happy right now. So no I have thought about them but I do get tired of the "gk is op" talks at the club.