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Draigo wrote:Well the deal with strike and some of the less popular is you get to hear about filling your list with warp quake, take purifiers then listen to how broken they are, etc. Plus gm are very good though you can take them for lower pt games that Draigo is just too much. But then you hear about peoples dislike of rad grenades and the wargear they can take. You really can't make anyone that happy right now. So no I have thought about them but I do get tired of the "gk is op" talks at the club.

See you missing the whole point of strikes, because marine and space wolf players will moan about how broken they are because they are only a few points more than a GH or TM yet have power weapons and stormbolters, you know what you can say "well I could always just use purifiers", its the same with a GM vs Draigo "if you like, I could use Draigo instead", trust me, it reduces the moaning about your army by half people do moan alot about my outflanking strike squads and venerable dreadnought, bleh, just a whole lot of moaning, mind you one of those people had never heard of the combat tactics rule and plays space marines

itsonlyme wrote:

Draigo wrote:Well the deal with strike and some of the less popular is you get to hear about filling your list with warp quake, take purifiers then listen to how broken they are, etc. Plus gm are very good though you can take them for lower pt games that Draigo is just too much. But then you hear about peoples dislike of rad grenades and the wargear they can take. You really can't make anyone that happy right now. So no I have thought about them but I do get tired of the "gk is op" talks at the club.

See you missing the whole point of strikes, because marine and space wolf players will moan about how broken they are because they are only a few points more than a GH or TM yet have power weapons and stormbolters, you know what you can say "well I could always just use purifiers", its the same with a GM vs Draigo "if you like, I could use Draigo instead", trust me, it reduces the moaning about your army by half people do moan alot about my outflanking strike squads and venerable dreadnought, bleh, just a whole lot of moaning, mind you one of those people had never heard of the combat tactics rule and plays space marines

Typically in non competitive games I run a mordrak/dk list. I don't play henchman at all while saving draigo and crowe for tourneys. Ive been messing around with hybrid lists as well after I tried out a gm list tonite vs a leafblower ig.

pretre wrote:

Draigo wrote:

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:I believe dark angels psychic hood is unlimited range.

DIP! Yeah, you passed the test TK. I intentionally left that one out to see if anyone was paying attention.

Um tk was a smidge late. It was already brought up.

Awww, sunova... Sorry Dok, my bad. TK, your test passing is removed. Dok, has passed the test instead.

Woo hoo!

Draigo wrote:

itsonlyme wrote:

Draigo wrote:Well the deal with strike and some of the less popular is you get to hear about filling your list with warp quake, take purifiers then listen to how broken they are, etc. Plus gm are very good though you can take them for lower pt games that Draigo is just too much. But then you hear about peoples dislike of rad grenades and the wargear they can take. You really can't make anyone that happy right now. So no I have thought about them but I do get tired of the "gk is op" talks at the club.

See you missing the whole point of strikes, because marine and space wolf players will moan about how broken they are because they are only a few points more than a GH or TM yet have power weapons and stormbolters, you know what you can say "well I could always just use purifiers", its the same with a GM vs Draigo "if you like, I could use Draigo instead", trust me, it reduces the moaning about your army by half people do moan alot about my outflanking strike squads and venerable dreadnought, bleh, just a whole lot of moaning, mind you one of those people had never heard of the combat tactics rule and plays space marines

Typically in non competitive games I run a mordrak/dk list. I don't play henchman at all while saving draigo and crowe for tourneys. Ive been messing around with hybrid lists as well after I tried out a gm list tonite vs a leafblower ig.

Well been playing with alot of lists myself, I have been thinking about taking a Draigo Paladin + strikes list to a local tournament or a more mixed list, can't really decided myself, I refuse to take the purifier filth list

itsonlyme wrote:

Draigo wrote:

itsonlyme wrote:

Draigo wrote:Well the deal with strike and some of the less popular is you get to hear about filling your list with warp quake, take purifiers then listen to how broken they are, etc. Plus gm are very good though you can take them for lower pt games that Draigo is just too much. But then you hear about peoples dislike of rad grenades and the wargear they can take. You really can't make anyone that happy right now. So no I have thought about them but I do get tired of the "gk is op" talks at the club.

See you missing the whole point of strikes, because marine and space wolf players will moan about how broken they are because they are only a few points more than a GH or TM yet have power weapons and stormbolters, you know what you can say "well I could always just use purifiers", its the same with a GM vs Draigo "if you like, I could use Draigo instead", trust me, it reduces the moaning about your army by half people do moan alot about my outflanking strike squads and venerable dreadnought, bleh, just a whole lot of moaning, mind you one of those people had never heard of the combat tactics rule and plays space marines

Typically in non competitive games I run a mordrak/dk list. I don't play henchman at all while saving draigo and crowe for tourneys. Ive been messing around with hybrid lists as well after I tried out a gm list tonite vs a leafblower ig.

Well been playing with alot of lists myself, I have been thinking about taking a Draigo Paladin + strikes list to a local tournament or a more mixed list, can't really decided myself, I refuse to take the purifier filth list

Draigowing reeeaaaallllly isn't any less shameful .

ShumaGorath wrote:

itsonlyme wrote:
Well been playing with alot of lists myself, I have been thinking about taking a Draigo Paladin + strikes list to a local tournament or a more mixed list, can't really decided myself, I refuse to take the purifier filth list

Draigowing reeeaaaallllly isn't any less shameful .

Pure 100% pallies with only the (it seems) mandetory psyflemen isn't as OTT as say a draigowing that's being supported by psyflemen, strikes/intercepters and adding in the filthy grenades.

Draigo and Crowe lists are pretty bad, just throwing that one out there. They are gimmicks that rely on your opponent not knowing what to do/not having a good army in order to win.

All the tears over these 2 characters really bother me, because it shows just how many people dont actually understand 40k. 30 pt tac marines, and 70 pt terminators are not effective armies. If you want to see what the top end of the grey knight build is, look at coteaz lists.

Eidolon wrote:Draigo and Crowe lists are pretty bad, just throwing that one out there. They are gimmicks that rely on your opponent not knowing what to do/not having a good army in order to win.

All the tears over these 2 characters really bother me, because it shows just how many people dont actually understand 40k. 30 pt tac marines, and 70 pt terminators are not effective armies. If you want to see what the top end of the grey knight build is, look at coteaz lists.

agreed

that and i have yet to meet a single grey knights list i couldn't beat with 3 Vindicators

Eidolon wrote:Draigo and Crowe lists are pretty bad, just throwing that one out there. They are gimmicks that rely on your opponent not knowing what to do/not having a good army in order to win.

All the tears over these 2 characters really bother me, because it shows just how many people dont actually understand 40k. 30 pt tac marines, and 70 pt terminators are not effective armies. If you want to see what the top end of the grey knight build is, look at coteaz lists.

Draigowing is unbeatable for a fair few army builds, the tears are fairly legitimate. Next time you manage to dent it with DOA BAs, tyranid big bugs, Berzerker rhino rush, any codex marine list that doesn't feature vulkan, footdar, or any number of other lists please do share. There are plenty of rock paper scissors scenarios in this game, but draigowing is cheap and mindless. It either wins flawlessly or the opponant has enough mechanized ap2 with good range to tear it down quickly. Understanding 40k is meaningless when it takes over 350 bolter shots to kill a single paladin (good golly wound allocation!) and most infantry models are equipped with bolter equivalents. With understanding comes the tacit realization that sometimes 40k is unbalanced and stupid.

Whether or not those lists are optimal doesn't change the fact that people will run them. I think one of the things that people have an issue with is that a GK list can run any one of the three "main" GK lists, and other armies have to be able to deal with that.

While it's true that any all-comers army should be aware of the possibility of facing other lists from many other armies that will be similar in nature to dais GK lists, the fact that GK have all three (effectively, the very rough equivalent of Death Wing, Razor Spam, and IG gunline) makes many people feel that they are overpowered.

I'd certainly say that they have a powerful codex, in fact it's probably second only to IG, but they are not necessarily overpowered. I think 40k over the course of 5th ed is a lot more balanced than it has ever been.

marmaduke wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Draigo and Crowe lists are pretty bad, just throwing that one out there. They are gimmicks that rely on your opponent not knowing what to do/not having a good army in order to win.

All the tears over these 2 characters really bother me, because it shows just how many people dont actually understand 40k. 30 pt tac marines, and 70 pt terminators are not effective armies. If you want to see what the top end of the grey knight build is, look at coteaz lists.

agreed

that and i have yet to meet a single grey knights list i couldn't beat with 3 Vindicators

I have yet to see one that I believe could lose to that.

marmaduke wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Draigo and Crowe lists are pretty bad, just throwing that one out there. They are gimmicks that rely on your opponent not knowing what to do/not having a good army in order to win.

All the tears over these 2 characters really bother me, because it shows just how many people dont actually understand 40k. 30 pt tac marines, and 70 pt terminators are not effective armies. If you want to see what the top end of the grey knight build is, look at coteaz lists.

agreed

that and i have yet to meet a single grey knights list i couldn't beat with 3 Vindicators

Ya but how will 3 vindicators do against other armies like guard, or vulcan marines, blood angels, dark eldar, or even eldar.

Kitzz wrote:Whether or not those lists are optimal doesn't change the fact that people will run them. I think one of the things that people have an issue with is that a GK list can run any one of the three "main" GK lists, and other armies have to be able to deal with that.

While it's true that any all-comers army should be aware of the possibility of facing other lists from many other armies that will be similar in nature to dais GK lists, the fact that GK have all three (effectively, the very rough equivalent of Death Wing, Razor Spam, and IG gunline) makes many people feel that they are overpowered.

I'd certainly say that they have a powerful codex, in fact it's probably second only to IG, but they are not necessarily overpowered. I think 40k over the course of 5th ed is a lot more balanced than it has ever been.

I guess opinions may very but have you faced razor spam space wolves? SW > IG < GK. IG is in the running but still lacks those things that put it up there with the others.

Most notably:
Lack of effective combat support
Lack of Psychic Hood
LD 9 psykers for there psychic powers

Dont get me wrong IG are competitive and definitely top tier but by no means are they still the top dog.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Draigowing is unbeatable for a fair few army builds, the tears are fairly legitimate. Next time you manage to dent it with DOA BAs, tyranid big bugs, Berzerker rhino rush, any codex marine list that doesn't feature vulkan, footdar, or any number of other lists please do share. There are plenty of rock paper scissors scenarios in this game, but draigowing is cheap and mindless. It either wins flawlessly or the opponant has enough mechanized ap2 with good range to tear it down quickly. Understanding 40k is meaningless when it takes over 350 bolter shots to kill a single paladin (good golly wound allocation!) and most infantry models are equipped with bolter equivalents. With understanding comes the tacit realization that sometimes 40k is unbalanced and stupid.

next time you manage to dent it with DOA BAs, tyranid big bugs, Berzerker rhino rush, any codex marine list that doesn't feature vulkan, footdar, or any number of other lists please do share

All of those except codex marine lists taht dont feature vulkan are really, really bad. And have been for some time. Nids were bad against wolves and ig from the start, and dark eldar put the nail in their coffin. Berzerker rhino rush has been defunct since what, 4th came out? DOA angels are a gimmick army, and were never good. Footdar is garbage and has been since the release of codex space wolves at the latest.

Heres my list of army archetypes that reliably crush footdar

mech wolves
footwolves
loganwing msu missile wolves
drop wolves
guard of any variety
dark eldar flying circus
dark footdar probably win too
deathwing
90% of vanilla marine lists
DOA blood angels
mech blood angels
hybrid doa/mech blood angels
nid zilla
gaunt carpet nids
stealer shock nids
lash/oblit/plague marine chaos
scarab farm necrons
av13 everywhere necrons
foot immortals everywhere necrons

Clearly, the fact that draigo beats footdar is a valid argument about draigo being broken, and not footdar sucking.

Next time any of those lists you gave me reliably beat 12+vehicle dark eldar, mech ig, mech wolves, mech blood angels, let me know. A pinto cant beat my pontiac in a race, that doesnt mean my pontiac is a racecar.

There are plenty of rock paper scissors scenarios in this game, but draigowing is cheap and mindless.

So like, its a spam army that only beats up on bad lists. This is not the first time this has happened in 40k. Ever heard of green tide?

It either wins flawlessly or the opponant has enough mechanized ap2 with good range to tear it down quickly

You need to be able to put out a lot of S8+ firepower to tear it down. Forcing instant death at first makes torrenting them down a lot faster. Fortunately, most any good army features a lot of ranged S8+ shots. So this shouldnt be an issue, except for bad armies, which lose hard to good lists anyways, so the point is moot.

Understanding 40k is meaningless when it takes over 350 bolter shots to kill a single paladin (good golly wound allocation!) and most infantry models are equipped with bolter equivalents.

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit. And then, suddenly, you only have to do 5 bolter wounds before they start removing guys, instead of 10. This also relies on the false assumption that every paladin will take a single wound before any start dying. If you have a 5 man squad, and 2 are wounded, 3 arent, you put 5 wounds on it with bolter fire, are the guys who are already wounded immune to failing the save? Is it more likely the unwounded guys will roll a 1?

With understanding comes the tacit realization that sometimes 40k is unbalanced and stupid.

Yeah so? This has been going on since the beginning of the game. How many of ye olden neckbeards remember the broken lists that existed in 2nd? What about rhino rush blood angels and chaos in 3rd. What about chaos 3.5? In 4th you had assault cannon spam marines, nidzilla, lash chaos, and mechdar. Does anyone remember the nightmare that were clown cars? Or the green tide list at the end of 4th? And how good that was?

Why are the arguments youve given so bad? Why is it that, any army with the ability to deal with the standard meta of 'tankstankstankstanks' also able to handle crowe and draigo lists easily? Why is 40k stupid? Do you have good arguments to back up your claims here, cause I havent really seen any.

Kitzz wrote:Whether or not those lists are optimal doesn't change the fact that people will run them. I think one of the things that people have an issue with is that a GK list can run any one of the three "main" GK lists, and other armies have to be able to deal with that.

While it's true that any all-comers army should be aware of the possibility of facing other lists from many other armies that will be similar in nature to dais GK lists, the fact that GK have all three (effectively, the very rough equivalent of Death Wing, Razor Spam, and IG gunline) makes many people feel that they are overpowered.

I'd certainly say that they have a powerful codex, in fact it's probably second only to IG, but they are not necessarily overpowered. I think 40k over the course of 5th ed is a lot more balanced than it has ever been.

Purifiers is basically coteaz with less tanks, so if you can handle coteaz you can handle purifiers. If you handle tanks, you need lots of high strength firepower, which also destroys paladins. So basically, if you can beat coteaz you can beat the other 2. Fortunately, coteaz is a list based around loads of transports, so, uh, its kinda like ig, wolves, dark eldar, mech blood angels. Lists that have been doing well for years now. So, if you cant handle lots of av rolling around, you cant handle grey knights. But this is ok, because you cant handle a lot of the other big tournament lists.

Eidolon wrote:

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit.

I play a non cheesy Vanilla list not Space Wolves, I'm forced to take loads of bolters for my puny tactical marines! Where am I supposed to get "loads" of high strength shots from? Vindis fire once, devastators are crazy over priced and I still only get 4 shots for 230-260 points, Preds/Dreds hardly fire loads either!

Seriously I agree with Shuma, show me a vanilla list that's not uber cheese that could put out loads of high strength shots.

You need Space Wolves for that right?

mattyrm wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit.

I play a non cheesy Vanilla list not Space Wolves, I'm forced to take loads of bolters for my puny tactical marines! Where am I supposed to get "loads" of high strength shots from? Vindis fire once, devastators are crazy over priced and I still only get 4 shots for 230-260 points, Preds/Dreds hardly fire loads either!

Seriously I agree with Shuma, show me a vanilla list that's not uber cheese that could put out loads of high strength shots.

You need Space Wolves for that right?

If your vanilla marines arent putting out a lot of high strength shots, they arent very competitive then are they? And whats a cheesy list? Do you mean competitive army designed to win against anything? If you dont run one of these kinds of lists, than why care? If you just show up to push around the models you think are pretty and have fun, then winning and losing shouldnt be an issue. If it is, then you should be playing competitively, in which case concepts like cheese need to be accepted and embraced in order for you to do well.

Honestly, I feel like the hard counter to Paladins is to (of all the things) get them into melee with hammernators. Granted, I realize that with rad grenades ad nauseum, that's not always a good idea, but probably how I would do it.

And lascannons. Also lascannons.

Eidolon wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Draigowing is unbeatable for a fair few army builds, the tears are fairly legitimate. Next time you manage to dent it with DOA BAs, tyranid big bugs, Berzerker rhino rush, any codex marine list that doesn't feature vulkan, footdar, or any number of other lists please do share. There are plenty of rock paper scissors scenarios in this game, but draigowing is cheap and mindless. It either wins flawlessly or the opponant has enough mechanized ap2 with good range to tear it down quickly. Understanding 40k is meaningless when it takes over 350 bolter shots to kill a single paladin (good golly wound allocation!) and most infantry models are equipped with bolter equivalents. With understanding comes the tacit realization that sometimes 40k is unbalanced and stupid.

next time you manage to dent it with DOA BAs, tyranid big bugs, Berzerker rhino rush, any codex marine list that doesn't feature vulkan, footdar, or any number of other lists please do share

All of those except codex marine lists taht dont feature vulkan are really, really bad. And have been for some time. Nids were bad against wolves and ig from the start, and dark eldar put the nail in their coffin. Berzerker rhino rush has been defunct since what, 4th came out? DOA angels are a gimmick army, and were never good. Footdar is garbage and has been since the release of codex space wolves at the latest.

Heres my list of army archetypes that reliably crush footdar

mech wolves
footwolves
loganwing msu missile wolves
drop wolves
guard of any variety
dark eldar flying circus
dark footdar probably win too
deathwing
90% of vanilla marine lists
DOA blood angels
mech blood angels
hybrid doa/mech blood angels
nid zilla
gaunt carpet nids
stealer shock nids
lash/oblit/plague marine chaos
scarab farm necrons
av13 everywhere necrons
foot immortals everywhere necrons

Clearly, the fact that draigo beats footdar is a valid argument about draigo being broken, and not footdar sucking.

Next time any of those lists you gave me reliably beat 12+vehicle dark eldar, mech ig, mech wolves, mech blood angels, let me know. A pinto cant beat my pontiac in a race, that doesnt mean my pontiac is a racecar.

There are plenty of rock paper scissors scenarios in this game, but draigowing is cheap and mindless.

So like, its a spam army that only beats up on bad lists. This is not the first time this has happened in 40k. Ever heard of green tide?

It either wins flawlessly or the opponant has enough mechanized ap2 with good range to tear it down quickly

You need to be able to put out a lot of S8+ firepower to tear it down. Forcing instant death at first makes torrenting them down a lot faster. Fortunately, most any good army features a lot of ranged S8+ shots. So this shouldnt be an issue, except for bad armies, which lose hard to good lists anyways, so the point is moot.

Understanding 40k is meaningless when it takes over 350 bolter shots to kill a single paladin (good golly wound allocation!) and most infantry models are equipped with bolter equivalents.

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit. And then, suddenly, you only have to do 5 bolter wounds before they start removing guys, instead of 10. This also relies on the false assumption that every paladin will take a single wound before any start dying. If you have a 5 man squad, and 2 are wounded, 3 arent, you put 5 wounds on it with bolter fire, are the guys who are already wounded immune to failing the save? Is it more likely the unwounded guys will roll a 1?

With understanding comes the tacit realization that sometimes 40k is unbalanced and stupid.

Yeah so? This has been going on since the beginning of the game. How many of ye olden neckbeards remember the broken lists that existed in 2nd? What about rhino rush blood angels and chaos in 3rd. What about chaos 3.5? In 4th you had assault cannon spam marines, nidzilla, lash chaos, and mechdar. Does anyone remember the nightmare that were clown cars? Or the green tide list at the end of 4th? And how good that was?

Why are the arguments youve given so bad? Why is it that, any army with the ability to deal with the standard meta of 'tankstankstankstanks' also able to handle crowe and draigo lists easily? Why is 40k stupid? Do you have good arguments to back up your claims here, cause I havent really seen any.

Kitzz wrote:Whether or not those lists are optimal doesn't change the fact that people will run them. I think one of the things that people have an issue with is that a GK list can run any one of the three "main" GK lists, and other armies have to be able to deal with that.

While it's true that any all-comers army should be aware of the possibility of facing other lists from many other armies that will be similar in nature to dais GK lists, the fact that GK have all three (effectively, the very rough equivalent of Death Wing, Razor Spam, and IG gunline) makes many people feel that they are overpowered.

I'd certainly say that they have a powerful codex, in fact it's probably second only to IG, but they are not necessarily overpowered. I think 40k over the course of 5th ed is a lot more balanced than it has ever been.

Purifiers is basically coteaz with less tanks, so if you can handle coteaz you can handle purifiers. If you handle tanks, you need lots of high strength firepower, which also destroys paladins. So basically, if you can beat coteaz you can beat the other 2. Fortunately, coteaz is a list based around loads of transports, so, uh, its kinda like ig, wolves, dark eldar, mech blood angels. Lists that have been doing well for years now. So, if you cant handle lots of av rolling around, you cant handle grey knights. But this is ok, because you cant handle a lot of the other big tournament lists.

For the record rhino rush berezerkers were still viable all the way up until grey knights hit. Now the khorne marines gets laughed at by I6 halberds. I actually put away my CSM because they were too easy to win with. Now that grey knights are here I guess I could bring them out more often. At 2500 points I have only ever lost 1 game with my CSM and that was to a judge's buddy if you catch the drift there(its a game of inch's).

daedalus wrote:Honestly, I feel like the hard counter to Paladins is to (of all the things) get them into melee with hammernators. Granted, I realize that with rad grenades ad nauseum, that's not always a good idea, but probably how I would do it.

And lascannons. Also lascannons.

That is exactly why I have 3 lascannons on my inf squads and was thinking about a 4th. Also I am digging the hat for the llama

I guess opinions may very but have you faced razor spam space wolves? SW > IG < GK. IG is in the running but still lacks those things that put it up there with the others.

Most notably:
Lack of effective combat support
Lack of Psychic Hood
LD 9 psykers for there psychic powers

Dont get me wrong IG are competitive and definitely top tier but by no means are they still the top dog.

Yes, they are the top dog. IG should have no problem beating space wolves and should have a slight uphill advantage against henchmen GK. Play against some experienced IG players that don't care about army cost and I think you'll very quickly realize that they are still the best.

Also, consider the amount of LoS blocking terrain on an average board when you do so.

Space wolves most certainly are not the best. I think that GK probably have the best codex, but in this meta, IG is king. Look at the entire meta, and you realize that mechspam defines it. Look to where that definition comes from, and you find IG. I'm not saying they're far and away the best, but they are the best.

Tomb King wrote:

For the record rhino rush berezerkers were still viable all the way up until grey knights hit. Now the khorne marines gets laughed at by I6 halberds. I actually put away my CSM because they were too easy to win with. Now that grey knights are here I guess I could bring them out more often. At 2500 points I have only ever lost 1 game with my CSM and that was to a judge's buddy if you catch the drift there(its a game of inch's).

So uh, nobody ever shot your rhinos open as they tried to cross the board and gunned down your berzerkers? This is how people were winning against other mech marine armies. This sounds like some serious n00bslaying to me.

All of those except codex marine lists taht dont feature vulkan are really, really bad.

DOA BAs isn't bad, it just dies in the meta because grey knights exist. That also wasn't the point of my post. The point of my post was to list armies that literally have no viable path to either win or tie.

Nids were bad against wolves and ig from the start, and dark eldar put the nail in their coffin.

GKs put the nail in that coffin, they have a significantly higher tournament entry rate.

Berzerker rhino rush has been defunct since what, 4th came out?

Not particularly, it's actually pretty good against some fairly popular wolf and IG builds. It's not super high tier, but again, that wasn't the point of my post.

DOA angels are a gimmick army, and were never good.

Because GKs exist. Not because it's bad. It's a good list against many popular IG and wolf lists and it does well in games against the rest of the non GK field.

Footdar is garbage and has been since the release of codex space wolves at the latest.

Footdars resurgence came after that and has won major events, so I don't know what to tell you beyond the fact that I think you're getting your info wrong.

Clearly, the fact that draigo beats footdar is a valid argument about draigo being broken, and not footdar sucking.

I know it's already been pretty well shown so far in this thread but you're really really bad at forming well thought out arguments. Stop it with the strawmen dorothy.

So like, its a spam army that only beats up on bad lists. This is not the first time this has happened in 40k. Ever heard of green tide?

You didn't read what I posted correctly. Go back and try again.

You need to be able to put out a lot of S8+ firepower to tear it down. Forcing instant death at first makes torrenting them down a lot faster. Fortunately, most any good army features a lot of ranged S8+ shots.

You need a lot of str8 ap2, not just str8. A smart GK player will just walk forward and obliterate your guns if you lack ap2 and they'll stand in a shrouded ruin that their techmarine bolstered for 2+ cover while killing your plasma squads with psyfledreads if required otherwise.

Unless you can make them regret walking across the board then you're losing. Not a lot of armies can actually do that. Most that can are extremely KP heavy and those armies auto lose in one third of missions against draigowing.

So this shouldnt be an issue, except for bad armies, which lose hard to good lists anyways, so the point is moot.

AKA "Space wolves and IG feature a lot of str8 shots so draigowing is lame and easy to beat". Thanks. You're clearly very helpful here. Great understanding of the metagame.

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit. And then, suddenly, you only have to do 5 bolter wounds before they start removing guys, instead of 10.

AKA "All I play with and against are space wolves, GKs, and IG". Not every army has longfangs or good mechspam. Not every army in power armor is a space wolf one.

This also relies on the false assumption that every paladin will take a single wound before any start dying. If you have a 5 man squad, and 2 are wounded, 3 arent, you put 5 wounds on it with bolter fire, are the guys who are already wounded immune to failing the save? Is it more likely the unwounded guys will roll a 1?

FNP means that they have to roll a 1 followed by a 1-3. Thats a one in 12 chance. That requires 2 bolter shots for that wound meaning 24 hitting shots. That requires 36 shots. Congrats, you just fired two full tactical squads. Maybe you'll get an already wounded guy once. Or maybe, just maybe, you did 4 wounds to the same guy and none to the others thus losing half your wounds to wound allocation.

Clearly thats not still idiotic.

But hey, it's ok, my blood angel, dark angel, black templar, eldar, dark eldar, necron, chaos, and demon long fangs can still shoot their missiles from far away and rely on volume. Clearly those armies have those.

Yeah so? This has been going on since the beginning of the game. How many of ye olden neckbeards remember the broken lists that existed in 2nd? What about rhino rush blood angels and chaos in 3rd. What about chaos 3.5? In 4th you had assault cannon spam marines, nidzilla, lash chaos, and mechdar. Does anyone remember the nightmare that were clown cars? Or the green tide list at the end of 4th? And how good that was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Why are the arguments youve given so bad? Why is it that, any army with the ability to deal with the standard meta of 'tankstankstankstanks' also able to handle crowe and draigo lists easily?

They're bad because you seem at a basic level to be unable to comprehend them. You've been assembling poorly thought out strawmen for many pages now. You practically have an army of them. My argument was that people hate draigowing because it automatically wins with no recourse against many lists. It's not even close to fun to play against. It's boring looking, thematically stupid, and utterly unbeatable by any marine army that relies on close combat or short range fire support (which is most of them, but I guess you live on fenris).

My point wasn't that it was unbeatable or that it conquered the top tables. Just that it was a fething chore to see accross the table and very demoralizing for anyone not powergaming the power3.

Eidolon wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

For the record rhino rush berezerkers were still viable all the way up until grey knights hit. Now the khorne marines gets laughed at by I6 halberds. I actually put away my CSM because they were too easy to win with. Now that grey knights are here I guess I could bring them out more often. At 2500 points I have only ever lost 1 game with my CSM and that was to a judge's buddy if you catch the drift there(its a game of inch's).

So uh, nobody ever shot your rhinos open as they tried to cross the board and gunned down your berzerkers? This is how people were winning against other mech marine armies. This sounds like some serious n00bslaying to me.

At the second round of ard boyz last year I was shot out of 3 of my transports on turn 1. I foot slogged my way to a massacre. Its how you play them. I could still rofl curb stomp just about any army with my csm except grey knights. I went 25-0 with csm at 2500 before finally losing to a wedding .

ALSO NOTE: IG have the most KP out of just about every army. For my argument listed above why they are not number 1. Play a DoW, annihilation mission then come talk to me.

ShumaGorath wrote:

They're bad because you seem at a basic level to be unable to comprehend them. You've been assembling poorly thought out strawmen for many pages now. You practically have an army of them. My argument was that people hate draigowing because it automatically wins with no recourse against many lists. It's not even close to fun to play against. It's boring looking, thematically stupid, and utterly unbeatable by any marine army that relies on close combat or short range fire support (which is most of them, but I guess you live on fenris).

My point wasn't that it was unbeatable or that it conquered the top tables. Just that it was a fething chore to see accross the table and very demoralizing for anyone not powergaming the power3.

So uh, im stupid, and have been assembling a lot of strawmen arguments for what, 1 page, which somehow is now many pages? How many times have I posted in this thread? 5? Yes, draigowing autowins against certain armies. But so do a lot of other lists. Boring looking, thematically stupid, are invalid arguments. I thinks that every ork army, is boring and stupid, I honestly do. I have no issue playing against orks however, and dont make threads to moan about them.

My point wasn't that it was unbeatable or that it conquered the top tables. Just that it was a fething chore to see accross the table and very demoralizing for anyone not powergaming the power3.

Oh ok, so it was just a thread created to moan about an army of toy soldiers, but has nothing to do with actual competitive gaming. Guess ill quit wasting my time here then, and put you on ignore

Tomb King wrote:

Eidolon wrote:
At the second round of ard boyz last year I was shot out of 3 of my transports on turn 1. I foot slogged my way to a massacre. Its how you play them. I could still rofl curb stomp just about any army with my csm except grey knights. I went 25-0 with csm at 2500 before finally losing to a wedding .

ALSO NOTE: IG have the most KP out of just about every army. For my argument listed above why they are not number 1. Play a DoW, annihilation mission then come talk to me.

What were you playing round 2 that only shot 3 transports down, and didnt bother stunning/immobilizing the rest of them? And that also let zerkers footslog well against it? I am still confused by this. How does zerker spam beat nidzilla, flying deldar, or mech ig? I am seriously intrigued, not trying to troll.

So uh, im stupid, and have been assembling a lot of strawmen arguments for what, 1 page, which somehow is now many pages? How many times have I posted in this thread? 5?

Sorry, I thought you were "draigo". Your posting method was very similar to his and you both have similar avatar pictures. My bad.

Yes, draigowing autowins against certain armies. But so do a lot of other lists. Boring looking, thematically stupid, are invalid arguments.

Arguments for what? I was making a statement about the reception which draigowing has on tournament tables. The reception is poor. I wasn't making an argument, I was making an observation.

I thinks that every ork army, is boring and stupid, I honestly do. I have no issue playing against orks however, and dont make threads to moan about them.

Thats probably because you can beat them. If you couldn't you would. Also, I didn't make this thread and here you are.

Oh ok, so it was just a thread created to moan about an army of toy soldiers, but has nothing to do with actual competitive gaming. Guess ill quit wasting my time here then, and put you on ignore

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/417456.page

Who started this thread exactly? 44 pages ago? I mean, if this is how you act then please, ignore me. This thread is well beyond its initial topic. At this point it's pretty roaming and stupid. If you're unable to interface with the current topic of conversation (as asinine as it is) then you're probably not going to be a particularly meaningful conversation buddy as is.

Tomb King wrote:
ALSO NOTE: IG have the most KP out of just about every army. For my argument listed above why they are not number 1. Play a DoW, annihilation mission then come talk to me.

Oh, so I only have to think my way to a win one ninth of the time? Sign me up.

In all seriousness, every army has at least one mission that is their worst mission. Guard find it difficult to lose on C&C and especially Seize Ground. Even in kill point missions, it's not exactly difficult to table most opponents (read: marines).

Experiment 626 wrote:
Pure 100% pallies with only the (it seems) mandetory psyflemen isn't as OTT as say a draigowing that's being supported by psyflemen, strikes/intercepters and adding in the filthy grenades.

Do you frequently play one million point games?

I think Grey Knights are OP. And, they're really popular.

However, that doesn't make them the most OP book GW has put out in a decade. Are you all forgetting about Fantasy Daemons?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit. And then, suddenly, you only have to do 5 bolter wounds before they start removing guys, instead of 10.

AKA "All I play with and against are space wolves, GKs, and IG". Not every army has longfangs or good mechspam. Not every army in power armor is a space wolf one.

Yeah that was my point.. I think he's concentrating on everything that isn't vanilla SM.

How can Vanilla marines spam missles and such? Is it even possible for us to get more than about ten shots over s8 in a turn at 1500pts?

I'm well aware that its a piece of piss for the SW, they can get ten missiles in at a 1000 points, where as I've got to pay 230pts for 4 missile launchers.

I haven't touched C:SM for a long time, and I never really did well with it even when I did, but how about this:

Pedro

Sternguard x5, 4 combimeltas, 1 powerfist, drop pod
Sternguard x5, 4 combimeltas, 1 powerfist, drop pod

Tac Squad, plasma gun, missile launcher, combi-melta/powerfist, rhino
Tac Squad, plasma gun, missile launcher, combi-melta/powerfist, rhino

Devastator Squad, 4 missile launchers
Devastator Squad, 4 missile launchers

Vindicator

mattyrm wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit. And then, suddenly, you only have to do 5 bolter wounds before they start removing guys, instead of 10.

AKA "All I play with and against are space wolves, GKs, and IG". Not every army has longfangs or good mechspam. Not every army in power armor is a space wolf one.

Yeah that was my point.. I think he's concentrating on everything that isn't vanilla SM.

How can Vanilla marines spam missles and such? Is it even possible for us to get more than about ten shots over s8 in a turn at 1500pts?

I'm well aware that its a piece of piss for the SW, they can get ten missiles in at a 1000 points, where as I've got to pay 230pts for 4 missile launchers.

So the metric for whether a codex is OP/broken is if it is significantly hard just for your codex to deal with? Sounds more like the problem is with vanilla SM.

targetawg wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit. And then, suddenly, you only have to do 5 bolter wounds before they start removing guys, instead of 10.

AKA "All I play with and against are space wolves, GKs, and IG". Not every army has longfangs or good mechspam. Not every army in power armor is a space wolf one.

Yeah that was my point.. I think he's concentrating on everything that isn't vanilla SM.

How can Vanilla marines spam missles and such? Is it even possible for us to get more than about ten shots over s8 in a turn at 1500pts?

I'm well aware that its a piece of piss for the SW, they can get ten missiles in at a 1000 points, where as I've got to pay 230pts for 4 missile launchers.

So the metric for whether a codex is OP/broken is if it is significantly hard just for your codex to deal with? Sounds more like the problem is with vanilla SM.

thank you. As someone who runs paladins from time to time, what im afraid of in the nilla marine book are. Typhoons, vindicators, lascannons, missiles, melta guns, dreadnoughts in close combat, and hammernators. But most importantly, the fact that a giant brick of paladins can only kill 1 thing a turn, assuming you dont clump up and let me multi charge. So really, you can beat them by laying down suppression fire and out maneuvering.