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<purgation complete; thread reopened>

Stay on topic.

Janthkin wrote:<purgation complete; thread reopened>

Stay on topic.

Yay exterminatus complete let new life begin.

daedalus wrote:I haven't touched C:SM for a long time, and I never really did well with it even when I did, but how about this:

Pedro

Sternguard x5, 4 combimeltas, 1 powerfist, drop pod
Sternguard x5, 4 combimeltas, 1 powerfist, drop pod

Tac Squad, plasma gun, missile launcher, combi-melta/powerfist, rhino
Tac Squad, plasma gun, missile launcher, combi-melta/powerfist, rhino

Devastator Squad, 4 missile launchers
Devastator Squad, 4 missile launchers

Vindicator

Back to the main point here. Yes the above list might work against paladins but how you plan on winning an objective mission? In addition the above list has: 12 kill points while draigowing averages between 5-8.

Tomb King wrote:

daedalus wrote:I haven't touched C:SM for a long time, and I never really did well with it even when I did, but how about this:

Pedro

Sternguard x5, 4 combimeltas, 1 powerfist, drop pod
Sternguard x5, 4 combimeltas, 1 powerfist, drop pod

Tac Squad, plasma gun, missile launcher, combi-melta/powerfist, rhino
Tac Squad, plasma gun, missile launcher, combi-melta/powerfist, rhino

Devastator Squad, 4 missile launchers
Devastator Squad, 4 missile launchers

Vindicator

Back to the main point here. Yes the above list might work against paladins but how you plan on winning an objective mission? In addition the above list has: 12 kill points while draigowing averages between 5-8.

Between Combat Squadding and Pedro, he has 6 scoring units.

Pedro makes the Sternguard scoring as well.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

daedalus wrote:I haven't touched C:SM for a long time, and I never really did well with it even when I did, but how about this:

Pedro

Sternguard x5, 4 combimeltas, 1 powerfist, drop pod
Sternguard x5, 4 combimeltas, 1 powerfist, drop pod

Tac Squad, plasma gun, missile launcher, combi-melta/powerfist, rhino
Tac Squad, plasma gun, missile launcher, combi-melta/powerfist, rhino

Devastator Squad, 4 missile launchers
Devastator Squad, 4 missile launchers

Vindicator

Back to the main point here. Yes the above list might work against paladins but how you plan on winning an objective mission? In addition the above list has: 12 kill points while draigowing averages between 5-8.

Between Combat Squadding and Pedro, he has 6 scoring units.

I wouldnt count drop podding combi melta as scoring as they will only be scoring for the 1 to 2 turns that they are alive

pretre wrote:Pedro makes the Sternguard scoring as well.

Neat trick.

I have 4-6 scoring units, 2 of which will be drop podded, and 2 more in metal bawkses, against a hypothetical list that will have 2-3 somewhat more resilient scoring units? I think I will manage.

And yes, it's KP heavy, but so is just about any list compared with Draigo/Deathwing

Eidolon wrote:

targetawg wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit. And then, suddenly, you only have to do 5 bolter wounds before they start removing guys, instead of 10.

AKA "All I play with and against are space wolves, GKs, and IG". Not every army has longfangs or good mechspam. Not every army in power armor is a space wolf one.

Yeah that was my point.. I think he's concentrating on everything that isn't vanilla SM.

How can Vanilla marines spam missles and such? Is it even possible for us to get more than about ten shots over s8 in a turn at 1500pts?

I'm well aware that its a piece of piss for the SW, they can get ten missiles in at a 1000 points, where as I've got to pay 230pts for 4 missile launchers.

So the metric for whether a codex is OP/broken is if it is significantly hard just for your codex to deal with? Sounds more like the problem is with vanilla SM.

thank you. As someone who runs paladins from time to time, what im afraid of in the nilla marine book are. Typhoons, vindicators, lascannons, missiles, melta guns, dreadnoughts in close combat, and hammernators. But most importantly, the fact that a giant brick of paladins can only kill 1 thing a turn, assuming you dont clump up and let me multi charge. So really, you can beat them by laying down suppression fire and out maneuvering.

You probably shouldn't to too afraid of most of those. Typhoons are eminently easy to snipe with psyfledreads, lascanons have no cost effective platform in the army, ditto with missiles and they're not particularly spammable without devoting massive amounts of points to it, meltaguns aren't massable on cheap platforms and the only high concentration is on sterns which can be mitigated easily. If you're having problems with dreads in CC then you're doing something wrong, MoT makes mincemeat of them.

As for only killing one thing a turn, that's both true and false. If they're utilizing meltas and plasmas then they've probably used a transport to get there. Thats two killpoints. Since marine firepower comes in concentrated high cost bricks it's not particularly hard to just focus fire the dangerous portions. A palladin squad has a charge threat range that's about 42 inches wide at maximum. If you're having trouble with being "ourmanuvered" you're probably deploying them wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:I haven't touched C:SM for a long time, and I never really did well with it even when I did, but how about this:

Pedro

Sternguard x5, 4 combimeltas, 1 powerfist, drop pod
Sternguard x5, 4 combimeltas, 1 powerfist, drop pod

Tac Squad, plasma gun, missile launcher, combi-melta/powerfist, rhino
Tac Squad, plasma gun, missile launcher, combi-melta/powerfist, rhino

Devastator Squad, 4 missile launchers
Devastator Squad, 4 missile launchers

Vindicator

If the GK player is smart they'll note the drop coming and always keep at least half their squad in area terrain. Their threat range is longer than the rhino meltas so they get first choice of target priority. A shrouded paladin squad is getting 3+ cover, so those meltas are likely to kill about 1 and a third paladins in total and thats ignoring the wound sink that draigo is. For the attempt you're losing both squads fully and likely their transports as well. Point for point and in the maneuver war that's a pretty bad trade.

The Tac squads have the same issues. The devs could be useful but they're killing less than a single palladin per turn (if they're smart and throw things onto draigo even less than that) and that pally squad isn't the only thing in their army.

The vindicator is your real and looming threat. If you're good with it you'll get a shot before they can return fire. It'll likely get silenced in the return fire from the 3 psycanons, but it could have a good chance of causing some damage.

The list would have to alpha strike with every squad simultaneously (thus giving the vind more turns to shoot). I don't give it good odds against a midlevel draigowing army. The math and logical target priority would seem to be in the grey dudes favor.

daedalus wrote:I have 4-6 scoring units, 2 of which will be drop podded, and 2 more in metal bawkses, against a hypothetical list that will have 2-3 somewhat more resilient scoring units? I think I will manage.

And yes, it's KP heavy, but so is just about any list compared with Draigo/Deathwing

KP heavy?!

Its MEGA heavy. 5 man SM squads die so easily, on a KP fight you will get utterly annihilated by any list a GK throws at you. They literally have no chance of winning.

Even if everything else lives, both DP squads will die, and both DP's will die, and your pretty much done in already against the GKs with a much smaller model and thus KP count.

That aside, cheers mate Its a decent list! Ill play it against my mates Orks!

To be fair, I cut my teeth on IG. My concept of KP heavy tends to be 25-30.

On topic I wanted to put out my 2cp. All codeices are invetably equal. This may sound craZy but it does make scence. All codeices use the same point system so (in theory) 1000pts of anything is equal in power to 1000pts of GK. Each GK squad may have more power but it costs a ton more points.

Seanaust wrote:On topic I wanted to put out my 2cp. All codeices are invetably equal. This may sound craZy but it does make scence. All codeices use the same point system so (in theory) 1000pts of anything is equal in power to 1000pts of GK. Each GK squad may have more power but it costs a ton more points.

IN THEORY. I may not think that GK are the most OP book GW has put out in a decade, but saying every single book is equal in power is a little crazy.

Also, the thought that you can take 1000 points of anything and be equal in power to 1000 points of anything else is just wrong. 1000 points of a poorly conceived all grot army does not equal the power of 1000 points of well built Space Wolves.

I just played GK dragowing on vassal...now I know why everyone hates GK.
No army build should be able to table the enemy so quickly.

I agree that not all armies are the same. Secondly, Game balance has almost always been breached someway or another in most linear type games. Just too broad of a game with too many special rules for there not to be a problem or two. For the most part, I think the Gk are pretty tough to beat, yet not impossible. I also think and agree, that as more new codex come out, we will see that this army is in tune with the new rules and powers of other things. Patience is key

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I just played GK dragowing on vassal...now I know why everyone hates GK.
No army build should be able to table the enemy so quickly.

Like venoms spam, IG leaf blower, etc? You need to be more specific as to your version of Draigowing. A 10 man walking squad cannot table anyone that quickly since at most that means a 5 man pally squad and 3 psyfleman dreads. So unless hes rolling hot dice I doubt he could table anyone fast.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I just played GK dragowing on vassal...now I know why everyone hates GK.
No army build should be able to table the enemy so quickly.

Aha. One game of Vassal and you have solved our dilemma of whether GK are OP or not. Wow, why didn't we think of that before?

I haven't had to say this for a while, but Vassal =/= 40k.

pretre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I just played GK dragowing on vassal...now I know why everyone hates GK.
No army build should be able to table the enemy so quickly.

Aha. One game of Vassal and you have solved our dilemma of whether GK are OP or not. Wow, why didn't we think of that before?

I see what you did there.

Draigo wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I just played GK dragowing on vassal...now I know why everyone hates GK.
No army build should be able to table the enemy so quickly.

Like venoms spam, IG leaf blower, etc? You need to be more specific as to your version of Draigowing. A 10 man walking squad cannot table anyone that quickly since at most that means a 5 man pally squad and 3 psyfleman dreads. So unless hes rolling hot dice I doubt he could table anyone fast.

10 man pally squad with 10 man termy squad.
And he did have ridiculously good luck...kept passing his MSS rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:I haven't had to say this for a while, but Vassal =/= 40k.

How so? The mechanic seems to work fine.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I haven't had to say this for a while, but Vassal =/= 40k.

How so? The mechanic seems to work fine.

In the sense that buying prepainted D&D miniatures is the same thing as painting metal ones from scratch, maybe.

Monster Rain wrote:I haven't had to say this for a while, but Vassal =/= 40k.

I wasn't even going to get into that part. As much as one game of 40k is largely meaningless in proving anything; one game of vassal isn't even the same game so it is even more meaningless in proving anything.

In order to get empirical data for something like this, you need tons of data points from the actual game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I haven't had to say this for a while, but Vassal =/= 40k.

How so? The mechanic seems to work fine.

How'd you achieve TLOS?

pretre wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I haven't had to say this for a while, but Vassal =/= 40k.

I wasn't even going to get into that part. As much as one game of 40k is largely meaningless in proving anything; one game of vassal isn't even the same game so it is even more meaningless in proving anything.

In order to get empirical data for something like this, you need tons of data points from the actual game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I haven't had to say this for a while, but Vassal =/= 40k.

How so? The mechanic seems to work fine.

How'd you achieve TLOS?

Common sense? But you do have a point.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

pretre wrote:How'd you achieve TLOS?

Common sense? But you do have a point.

lol. You can't use common sense for something that requires you to actually look through the 3D space that models occupy. You can use your imagination, but that's not quite the same as common sense.

Anyways, lets head back on topic.

mattyrm wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes, because the only way to kill paladins is through bolters. Not, you know, spamming loads of high strength shots to murder half the unit. And then, suddenly, you only have to do 5 bolter wounds before they start removing guys, instead of 10.

AKA "All I play with and against are space wolves, GKs, and IG". Not every army has longfangs or good mechspam. Not every army in power armor is a space wolf one.

Yeah that was my point.. I think he's concentrating on everything that isn't vanilla SM.

How can Vanilla marines spam missles and such? Is it even possible for us to get more than about ten shots over s8 in a turn at 1500pts?

I'm well aware that its a piece of piss for the SW, they can get ten missiles in at a 1000 points, where as I've got to pay 230pts for 4 missile launchers.

L2SMFastAttack....

MMABs and Typhoons are extremely effective cost-effective sources of firepower. Autocannon/Lascannon Preds are also great in Heavy Support. You can take Meltas, Multimeltas, and Combi-Meltas on your Tacticals and back them up with TH/SS Terminators. Just to make sure your shots hit home, you can take Vulcan and/or a Null Zone Libby. Space Marines have plenty of tools to survive in the current meta. They aren't as stacked as SW, but they ain't bad.

EDIT: I say this as someone who still plays SM for competitive games... I actually pull out my hero-hammer GKs when I really don't care if I win or there are painting/theme scores involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:If you're having problems with dreads in CC then you're doing something wrong, MoT makes mincemeat of them.

If the GK player is smart they'll note the drop coming and always keep at least half their squad in area terrain. Their threat range is longer than the rhino meltas so they get first choice of target priority. A shrouded paladin squad is getting 3+ cover

Bring a Libby and these become much less of an issue. A GK player has to think long and hard about how confident he is about whether he can get MoT off before charging a Dread. That or just charge the Pallies with your Dread instead (Sanctuary sucks, but still not likely to be an issue) and smash them on your opponents turn.

Also, you are right in that Codex SMs cannot spam missiles/razors as effectively as SW. What they can spam though include:

FAST MULTIMELTAS
Meltas/Combi-meltas
TH/SS Termies
Combi-Preds
Rifleman Dreads (not as nice as Pysflemen, but still destroy light stuff just fine)
etc

Bring a Libby and these become much less of an issue. A GK player has to think long and hard about how confident he is about whether he can get MoT off before charging a Dread.

Or he'll just tear it apart with 4 psycanons. Or draigo will kill it. Or the hammers. But hey, averagely that dread will hit and then kill about two thirds of one paladin while costing 2-3 times as much.

FAST MULTIMELTAS

Which will die in a cost innefective manner the turn they attempt to use them. That or they'll be used as target practice for the psyfledreads. MM speeders are great, but they're not particularly effective against GKs. They're unlikely to manage to pay for themselves before dying and the GKs aren't hard up for sources of mobile ranged anti light tank.

Meltas/Combi-meltas

Sternguard are pricey and aren't a cost effective hard counter to draigowing. They're good against purifier spam though.

TH/SS Termies

Those are a great counter to pallys as long as they lack grenades and DCAs.

Combi-Preds

These are effective compared to other things in the same book but they aren't particularly great externally. They cost like 30 more then a psyfledread and are significantly worse in most scenarios. Most codexes have a unit analogue that is better/cheaper. Vendettas are cheaper and better at everything.

Rifleman Dreads (not as nice as Pysflemen, but still destroy light stuff just fine)

Aint nuthin wrong with rifles.

The C:SM unit choices are almost universally sub optimal compared to what other codexes can field.

Shuma pallys always have grenades. I would imagine that pt should be focued to DCA.

As far as dreads I dont think regular dreads are all that intimidating. Maybe iron clads or furiosos but not AV 12 ones.

Speeders arent all that scary unless you have something else thats applying pressure and can be a worse threat like sw use long fangs to give speeders a bit more of a less imposing threat.

Preds arent all that scary since the limited shots espeacially vs draigowing or the cheap numbers of henchman.

Never had an issue with sternguard since my guys are in vehicles. Even if I use a 10 man Im sticking to cover with shrouding. So 2+3++ against any shooting.

ShumaGorath wrote:The C:SM unit choices are almost universally sub optimal compared to what other codexes can field.

Agreed! But that doesn't make them terrible... and it doesn't mean that GKs are OP. It just means SM are old.

A few minor quibbles:

TH/SS Termies will slaughter Pallies point-for-point. Nullzone or Vulkan just makes it obscene.
Dreads are cheap as heck... so if they kill 2 Pallies then they are doing great. You're right... a Dread alone isn't scary to a group of Pallies. However, throw some TH/SS into to support (and eat the hammer attacks) and you can tie them up for a turn or two and probably kill a couple.
I agree that MM Landspeeders are not all that great... but Multimelta Attack Bikes are all that and a bag of chips, though.
Combi Preds are about 15 points cheaper than a Pysfleman. I wish they were as good as the BA version, but they're still solid.
You don't have to take Sternguard for Meltas/Combi-Meltas... you can take them on regular Tactical Squads that you have to take anyway.

Gornall wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The C:SM unit choices are almost universally sub optimal compared to what other codexes can field.

Agreed! But that doesn't make them terrible... and it doesn't mean that GKs are OP. It just means SM are old.

A few minor quibbles:

TH/SS Termies will slaughter Pallies point-for-point. Nullzone or Vulkan just makes it obscene.
Dreads are cheap as heck... so if they kill 2 Pallies then they are doing great. You're right... a Dread alone isn't scary to a group of Pallies. However, throw some TH/SS into to support (and eat the hammer attacks) and you can tie them up for a turn or two and probably kill a couple.
I agree that MM Landspeeders are not all that great... but Multimelta Attack Bikes are all that and a bag of chips, though.
Combi Preds are about 15 points cheaper than a Pysfleman. I wish they were as good as the BA version, but they're still solid.
You don't have to take Sternguard for Meltas/Combi-Meltas... you can take them on regular Tactical Squads that you have to take anyway.

Assault termies are the be all end all. They might work if you throw a crap ton of them at the paladins but that is a significant point sink for the rest of your army. Good luck against gun lines. There are things that can beat this army the question is are they things that can be taken that still allow other match-ups to be fruitful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I just played GK dragowing on vassal...now I know why everyone hates GK.
No army build should be able to table the enemy so quickly.

Aha. One game of Vassal and you have solved our dilemma of whether GK are OP or not. Wow, why didn't we think of that before?

lol'ed Sure was a fun game though. It was more or so to drive the final nail into the coffin that is the Nid codex

Tomb King wrote:Assault termies are the be all end all. They might work if you throw a crap ton of them at the paladins but that is a significant point sink for the rest of your army. Good luck against gun lines. There are things that can beat this army the question is are they things that can be taken that still allow other match-ups to be fruitful.

There are very few armies against which 5 TH/SS Termies are not going to be at least somewhat useful. There are very few armies against which meltas, multi-meltas, and S8+/AP2 shooting aren't effective. If people are worried about taking things that can beat GKs... maybe they should just take the same things that are effective against other competitive armies. Draigowing is just Nob Bikers 2.0....

Gornall wrote:

Tomb King wrote:Assault termies are the be all end all. They might work if you throw a crap ton of them at the paladins but that is a significant point sink for the rest of your army. Good luck against gun lines. There are things that can beat this army the question is are they things that can be taken that still allow other match-ups to be fruitful.

There are very few armies against which 5 TH/SS Termies are not going to be at least somewhat useful. There are very few armies against which meltas, multi-meltas, and S8+/AP2 shooting aren't effective. If people are worried about taking things that can beat GKs... maybe they should just take the same things that are effective against other competitive armies. Draigowing is just Nob Bikers 2.0....

And much worse than nob biker, which was king of the hill for a while, primarily due to how fast it was, unlike good ole 'waddlewing which will get there when it gets there.

I'll agree, TH/SS termies are gross versus paladins.

5 Paladins, 1 will have a hammer, lets say the rest have normal swords/halberds

TH/SS are probably getting the charge since they're usually taken with a transport, and draigowing doesn't have room for it, but, lets give neither the charge (I like math, sue me)

4 Pallies swing, 8 attacks, 5.328 hits, (give em hammerhand), 3.55 saves, hammers fail 1.2 ish.
4 hammers swing back, 8 attacks, 4 hits, 3.4 ish wounds, ~2 dead paladins
And thats 5 termies (200 points) versus 5 paladins (315 for 5 with 2 psycannons, how they're usually equipped).

And that example gave the paladins every advantage, there was no hood, no null zone, they didnt get charged (th/ss are almost always in a raider, paladins in a draigo wing are always on foot)....

I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

The math for a 5-on-5 matchup is irrelevant.