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Janthkin wrote:I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

I've never seen a 5-man TH/SS squad not bring any fire support either. I'm hoping that before they roll in the rest of the army has done some damage with S8/AP2 shooting. With the cost of a 10-man Pally squad with Libby and Draigo, you CAN afford to shoot your whole army into it for a turn or two.

Don't forget banner, stave and swords which stack the combat in their favor. I've been on both the giving and receiving end of 10 pallies vs 10 TH/SS terminators. Both times, the hamminators lost. As a matter of fact, in one battle, I lost 2 paladins and wiped out 20 FNP TH/SS termies!

I see 5 man pally squads a whole lot. But pallies aren't all there is to GK. I have had a lot of fun with henchmen and purifiers.

Janthkin wrote:I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

The math for a 5-on-5 matchup is irrelevant.

That's the most common squad I've seen actually, so I'd disagree on the irrelevance

And Draigo + 10 + Libby is 1200 points. Of course 200 points of TH/SS termies aren't going to do much. But then again, a 1200 point unit waddling around killing 1 thing per turn...meh?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

jy2 wrote:Don't forget banner, stave and swords which stack the combat in their favor. I've been on both the giving and receiving end of 10 pallies vs 10 TH/SS terminators. Both times, the hamminators lost. As a matter of fact, in one battle, I lost 2 paladins and wiped out 20 FNP TH/SS termies!

Your saves must have been epic, or his horrific. The FNP is a bit moot considering everyones swinging power weapons in this example..

jy2 wrote:Don't forget banner, stave and swords which stack the combat in their favor. I've been on both the giving and receiving end of 10 pallies vs 10 TH/SS terminators. Both times, the hamminators lost. As a matter of fact, in one battle, I lost 2 paladins and wiped out 20 FNP TH/SS termies!

But you use loaded dice/curse your opponent's dice to win....

In all seriousness, the more bling you put on the Pally Star, the fewer supporting units you can have for it. That can limit your tactical options and should allow your opponent to focus on the squisher bits. If I don't feel confident in shooting down a fully blinged out Pally star, I am going to go after the 5-man squad without Libby and Draigo. Don't get me wrong... I'm not arguing that Pallies are terrible. I just think that a competitive list and general should have a solid chance to either directly counter a Pally star or win the mission objectives by killing its support and using tactics such as screening and speed bumps to limit the damage it can do.

I want to play my draigowing vs someone using thunderfire canons. I'm curious how thatd affect the game. I've played master of the forge lists, sternguard and all that but yet to face something that would affect moving.

I don't see TFC having much effect on Paladins. Does it cause a pinning test?

-666- wrote:I don't see TFC having much effect on Paladins. Does it cause a pinning test?

It causes them to be counted as moving through difficult terrain if they were hit by it in the previous shooting phase. It's one of three shot types that it has. Thats the subterranean one i believe.

Thunderfire Cannons can force targets to be in difficult terrain (dangerous terrain in Pancake edition), so they can be a big pain for foot assault units, especially ones without Fleet. The same effect can of course be a big pain against faster units, especially bikes (who take Dangerous Terrain tests and can't turbo-boost for a turn after being hit), but limiting yourself to 2d6 pick highest each turn can really delay a charge.

Gornall wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

I've never seen a 5-man TH/SS squad not bring any fire support either. I'm hoping that before they roll in the rest of the army has done some damage with S8/AP2 shooting. With the cost of a 10-man Pally squad with Libby and Draigo, you CAN afford to shoot your whole army into it for a turn or two.

no, stop, the logic and sense making, it burns.

I still havent had an answer as to why draigo gets all the hate, and nobody seems to care about what a coteaz list can do. I have never seen or heard of a draigo army shooting a well built mech list off the board quickly. I have seen coteaz do it regularly. Its basically imperial guard, with really good combat support.

Eidolon wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

I've never seen a 5-man TH/SS squad not bring any fire support either. I'm hoping that before they roll in the rest of the army has done some damage with S8/AP2 shooting. With the cost of a 10-man Pally squad with Libby and Draigo, you CAN afford to shoot your whole army into it for a turn or two.

no, stop, the logic and sense making, it burns.

I still havent had an answer as to why draigo gets all the hate, and nobody seems to care about what a coteaz list can do. I have never seen or heard of a draigo army shooting a well built mech list off the board quickly. I have seen coteaz do it regularly. Its basically imperial guard, with really good combat support.

You really wanna know why I hate draigo? It isnt making paladins troops or the 4 wounds that you have to deal on him or the psychic bs. ITS THAT HE TAKES A DAMN DAEMONIC INCURSION JUST TO BE FIELDED. He lives the in the warp and cant come out and play but managed to make it to the field to fight my guardsman or my space marines...

And there's, you know, the whole "I bitch slapped a daemon primarch" thing

Eidolon wrote:I still havent had an answer as to why draigo gets all the hate, and nobody seems to care about what a coteaz list can do. I have never seen or heard of a draigo army shooting a well built mech list off the board quickly. I have seen coteaz do it regularly. Its basically imperial guard, with really good combat support.

You say "Imperial Guard with really good combat support;" I say "Imperial Guard with really inferior shooting support."

Tomb King wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

I've never seen a 5-man TH/SS squad not bring any fire support either. I'm hoping that before they roll in the rest of the army has done some damage with S8/AP2 shooting. With the cost of a 10-man Pally squad with Libby and Draigo, you CAN afford to shoot your whole army into it for a turn or two.

no, stop, the logic and sense making, it burns.

I still havent had an answer as to why draigo gets all the hate, and nobody seems to care about what a coteaz list can do. I have never seen or heard of a draigo army shooting a well built mech list off the board quickly. I have seen coteaz do it regularly. Its basically imperial guard, with really good combat support.

You really wanna know why I hate draigo? It isnt making paladins troops or the 4 wounds that you have to deal on him or the psychic bs. ITS THAT HE TAKES A DAMN DAEMONIC INCURSION JUST TO BE FIELDED. He lives the in the warp and cant come out and play but managed to make it to the field to fight my guardsman or my space marines...

Eh you really cant hate on that aspect of the fluff that much. I mean Sanguinor, Stormlord, Swarmlord and the like are always popping up. The primarch thing I think is worse. I happen to like him in my army but his fluff along with purifiers fluff, paladin fluff are as every bit out there as any other fluff. I mean Celestine, Yarrik and Thawn playing necron is weird too.

Janthkin wrote:I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

So why are you letting it kill you? They're on foot, move away.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

So why are you letting it kill you? They're on foot, move away.

Sometimes you have to, you know, take objectives? Ever tried dislodging 10 paladins, a techmarine, librarian and Draigo out of reinforced ruins with sanctuary up....with TYRANIDS?

Not happening, ever. Before you spin a yarn using Mawlocs to knock stuff out of cover or something equally outlandish, try doing it with a TAC tourny list.

@Eidolon; Draigo hate reasons;

1. Fluff butcher. Defeating a demon primarch is just blasphemy. Primarchs are the pinnacle of near-mortal power. It would be like the next chaos codex coming out and some new chaos character "beat the Emporer in single combat, and only failed to kill him because he sneezed". It's just silly.
2. Makes Paladins a troop choice. Nothing like W2 terminators for troops.
3. Wound allocation. Draigo + 5 terminators is the most irritating thing to kill ever. First S8 shot from every volley gets allocated to Draigo, so you still have a 2+ or 3++ to absorb it and if you get unlucky...OH NO! -1 wound instead of a dead Paladin....repeat for every volley that hits the squad. He pretty much doubles the paladins survivabilty against S8+ AP2 or better fire. Optimal wound absorption for Draigo means he will ablate ~9 S8+ AP2 wounds that would have killed 6 paladins before he's reduced to 1 wound, so instead of 6 dead paladins, you have a severely wounded character and 5 untouched paladins. Grats on those (possibly) 16-17 lascannons/lances doing 3 wounds instead of dumping an entire squad.
4. T5, W4, 2+/3++ with EW. Named a harder to kill character.
5. On top of all of that, he's still close to, if not the best single character in the game in terms of combat prowess.


Personal anecdotal; One of my 5-6 regular gaming friends plays a Draigo-wing, and in the 10ish games I've seen Draigo has not died once. He's lost games, some to the point of nearly being tabled, but Draigo has never lost his last wound. Last game I threw a Blood talon dread at him and he stood there like a champ and tanked it for 7 combat phases without taking a wound.

Imagine for a moment if Mephiston were an IC, made TH/SS terminators troops and the fluff stated he punched Khorne in the face on a bet from Dante. That would be the BA parallel.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

So why are you letting it kill you? They're on foot, move away.

Not every army has the ability to move and still do damage, and others don't want to move back at all (like every assault army ever). Either way, if their units are pushing your units around, then they control the field

targetawg wrote:

jy2 wrote:Don't forget banner, stave and swords which stack the combat in their favor. I've been on both the giving and receiving end of 10 pallies vs 10 TH/SS terminators. Both times, the hamminators lost. As a matter of fact, in one battle, I lost 2 paladins and wiped out 20 FNP TH/SS termies!

Your saves must have been epic, or his horrific. The FNP is a bit moot considering everyones swinging power weapons in this example.

It helped against my shooting. 4 psycannons and a bunch of stormbolters failed to kill a single terminator no thanks to FNP. Then he barely got the charge off of me (and I forgot to cast Sanctuary to make it difficult/dangerous).

Actually, the assault was quite average. I had 1 MC-hammer, 1 stave, 3 swords, 4 halberds and a banner. Le'ts just say 27 power weapon attacks, 18 hits, 15 wounds (wounding on 2's thanks to 2 hammerhands), 5 hamminators die.

Oh, I forgot, Draigo. 5 attacks, 3.5 hits, 3 wounds, 1 more hamminator die.

Then 4 hamminators hit back (on paladins). 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds. I allocate 1 on stave (saves), 3 on swords (1.5 dies) and 1 on halberd (.66 dies). Thus 2 paladins die.

Then next turn I route them.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

So why are you letting it kill you? They're on foot, move away.

They have a 30 inch threat range with their weapons. If they walk up the middle of the board that gives exactly six inches on either side that I can hide an entire army. (less considering how much space the squad takes up and their base sizes) I'll only have that six inches for a single turn. Their shooting may not be on par with their close combat, but it's still pretty damn powerful and it's effectively impossible to avoid.

jy2 wrote:

targetawg wrote:

jy2 wrote:Don't forget banner, stave and swords which stack the combat in their favor. I've been on both the giving and receiving end of 10 pallies vs 10 TH/SS terminators. Both times, the hamminators lost. As a matter of fact, in one battle, I lost 2 paladins and wiped out 20 FNP TH/SS termies!

Your saves must have been epic, or his horrific. The FNP is a bit moot considering everyones swinging power weapons in this example.

It helped against my shooting. 4 psycannons and a bunch of stormbolters failed to kill a single terminator no thanks to FNP. Then he barely got the charge off of me (and I forgot to cast Sanctuary to make it difficult/dangerous).

Actually, the assault was quite average. I had 1 MC-hammer, 1 stave, 3 swords, 4 halberds and a banner. Le'ts just say 27 power weapon attacks, 18 hits, 15 wounds (wounding on 2's thanks to 2 hammerhands), 5 hamminators die.

Oh, I forgot, Draigo. 5 attacks, 3.5 hits, 3 wounds, 1 more hamminator die.

Then 4 hamminators hit back (on paladins). 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds. I allocate 1 on stave (saves), 3 on swords (1.5 dies) and 1 on halberd (.66 dies). Thus 2 paladins die.

Then next turn I route them.

So he charged 400 points into a 1200 point combat deathstar and lost? Not sure how that was unexpected or a knock against GK's as OP...

ShumaGorath wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

So why are you letting it kill you? They're on foot, move away.

They have a 30 inch threat range with their weapons. If they walk up the middle of the board that gives exactly six inches on either side that I can hide an entire army. (less considering how much space the squad takes up and their base sizes) I'll only have that six inches for a single turn. Their shooting may not be on par with their close combat, but it's still pretty damn powerful and it's effectively impossible to avoid.

Their shooting is good, but it's not enough to justify their price tag on its own. Every turn you avoid combat with a Pally Star is a turn its not earning its points back. Yeah, it can move into good field position while you try to avoid it, but hopefully you are killing everything else and taking the other objectives besides the 1-2 it is sitting on. KP games are going to stink, no doubt, but that is not something unique to Draigowing.

So he charged 400 points into a 1200 point combat deathstar and lost? Not sure how that was unexpected or a knock against GK's as OP...

This.

Ohhh, its just fluff bunny moaning coupled with excuses for bad playing, I get it now. I thought this was the stuff reserved for warseer, but they seem to have figured out grey knights faster than you have, dakka. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?333218-Grey-Knights-in-the-MEQ-Meta

Grey Knights are a power book only due to a couple of things; Coteaz combined with minimum sized henchman allowing you to have a heinous vehicle count and melta options, rifleman dreads taking on anything in the game for 5 or 10 points more than regular dreads. and that's about it. people should be packing enough melta these days to blow paladins off the table,

Tomb King wrote:

You really wanna know why I hate draigo? It isnt making paladins troops or the 4 wounds that you have to deal on him or the psychic bs. ITS THAT HE TAKES A DAMN DAEMONIC INCURSION JUST TO BE FIELDED. He lives the in the warp and cant come out and play but managed to make it to the field to fight my guardsman or my space marines...

Hes a grey knight grand master. You know, he probably did some fighting before being sucked into the warp, and was still a serious badass then. So maybe youre fighting pre warp days supreme grand master draigo. Maybe your guardsmen or space marines are traitors and summoning warp stuff, I dunno.

Luke_Prowler wrote:And there's, you know, the whole "I bitch slapped a daemon primarch" thing

Thats uh, not quite how it worked. The primarch had already fought and killed 1 grand master, so doubtless there were lots more grey knights on the field. Grey knights, the demon fighting specialists, probably have the tools to handle even a primarch after some serious fighting. Same way they banished angron.

Fetterkey wrote:

Eidolon wrote:I still havent had an answer as to why draigo gets all the hate, and nobody seems to care about what a coteaz list can do. I have never seen or heard of a draigo army shooting a well built mech list off the board quickly. I have seen coteaz do it regularly. Its basically imperial guard, with really good combat support.

You say "Imperial Guard with really good combat support;" I say "Imperial Guard with really inferior shooting support."

Fair enough sir, fair enough. I dont really 'want' to fight either though, as it makes for a very rough game.

Carnage43 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Janthkin wrote:I've never seen a 5-man Pally squad standiing around to be charged; it's always 10 plus Draigo and a librarian.

So why are you letting it kill you? They're on foot, move away.

Sometimes you have to, you know, take objectives? Ever tried dislodging 10 paladins, a techmarine, librarian and Draigo out of reinforced ruins with sanctuary up....with TYRANIDS?

Not happening, ever. Before you spin a yarn using Mawlocs to knock stuff out of cover or something equally outlandish, try doing it with a TAC tourny list.

@Eidolon; Draigo hate reasons;

1. Fluff butcher. Defeating a demon primarch is just blasphemy. Primarchs are the pinnacle of near-mortal power. It would be like the next chaos codex coming out and some new chaos character "beat the Emporer in single combat, and only failed to kill him because he sneezed". It's just silly.
2. Makes Paladins a troop choice. Nothing like W2 terminators for troops.
3. Wound allocation. Draigo + 5 terminators is the most irritating thing to kill ever. First S8 shot from every volley gets allocated to Draigo, so you still have a 2+ or 3++ to absorb it and if you get unlucky...OH NO! -1 wound instead of a dead Paladin....repeat for every volley that hits the squad. He pretty much doubles the paladins survivabilty against S8+ AP2 or better fire. Optimal wound absorption for Draigo means he will ablate ~9 S8+ AP2 wounds that would have killed 6 paladins before he's reduced to 1 wound, so instead of 6 dead paladins, you have a severely wounded character and 5 untouched paladins. Grats on those (possibly) 16-17 lascannons/lances doing 3 wounds instead of dumping an entire squad.
4. T5, W4, 2+/3++ with EW. Named a harder to kill character.
5. On top of all of that, he's still close to, if not the best single character in the game in terms of combat prowess.


Personal anecdotal; One of my 5-6 regular gaming friends plays a Draigo-wing, and in the 10ish games I've seen Draigo has not died once. He's lost games, some to the point of nearly being tabled, but Draigo has never lost his last wound. Last game I threw a Blood talon dread at him and he stood there like a champ and tanked it for 7 combat phases without taking a wound.

Imagine for a moment if Mephiston were an IC, made TH/SS terminators troops and the fluff stated he punched Khorne in the face on a bet from Dante. That would be the BA parallel.

Tyranids suck anyways, so your logic is invalid about that.
1-your primarch example is dumb, quit using /tg/ logic. traitor primarchs arent the pinnacle of near mortal power, considering they are now demons. And its not specific as to who else was there/what else had happened. It wasnt like draigo strolled into the eye, shanked mortarion, and walked out.
2-paladins arent a great unit anyways, and I think its awesome theres nothing like it in the game. You know, something new and exciting so gw can keep selling models to make revenue to stay in business, and us who like gaming can have new things to play around with.
3-I fight a 5 man paladin+draigo squad in a larger gk army regularly, its by far the smallest threat. I ignore it until it has to die, and then it does. You can torrent away the paladdins and then charge a dreadnought into draigo and watch him go nowhere.
4-I cant name a harder to kill character, other than mephiston in certain match ups, but whats your point? He should be tough, hes 275 points and the grey knight grand master. Being the boss pimp of the bossest chapter around means you should be tough. His little 'unlock' is in no way competitive, so you basically pay 100+ points on a normal gm for his wargear and statline, yay!
5-yeah, see above. He is also, as you forgot to mention, very, very slow, unless you buy him a transport that costs nearly what he does.

You've never seen draigo die? Why dont you get a better play group. I have had games where my draigo+10 paladin star never leaves its deployment zone due to firepower coming my way. Also, I dont see why the dreadthing is a problem. you held a 275 pt combat beast up with something half his points for 3.5 turns. Congrats, thats called success and good tactics. I would be happy about draigo not molesting my troops. But hey, if you think this is a bad thing, thats fine, it just shines a new light on your previous posts, and understanding of the game.

No it wouldnt be. Mephiston is much, much faster than draigo. TH/SS are superior to paladins, especially considering blood angels get fnp. And punching a demon god != stabbing a primarch in the middle of a larger battle.

Come on, theres no reason to hate draigo on the table top far as competitiveness is concerned. And the fluff hate is blown out of proportion. These kind of negative attitudes are what drag the hobby down.

Eidolon wrote:

Come on, theres no reason to hate draigo on the table top far as competitiveness is concerned.

lol at your first sentence here when people just named several reasons why they hate him for competitive reasons.

Eidolon wrote:
And the fluff hate is blown out of proportion.

The fluff thing is three tiered 3 strikes and your out. One he killed a primarch, two he lives in the warp, three he needs a daemonic incursion just to continue his tenure as grand master. Ide hate to be his second in command. What there is a daemonic incursion??? Alright lads im not longer in charge and we need to get this to do list to the grand master... lets go.

Eidolon wrote:

These kind of negative attitudes are what drag the hobby down.

A lot of people have argued that GK are actually doing that but it is being mitigated some as more people step away from the codex or run more optimal list for the greater good ...

Grey knights are to 40k = Warriors of Chaos are to Fantasy.

Tomb King wrote:The fluff thing is three tiered 3 strikes and your out. One he killed a primarch, two he lives in the warp, three he needs a daemonic incursion just to continue his tenure as grand master. Ide hate to be his second in command. What there is a daemonic incursion??? Alright lads im not longer in charge and we need to get this to do list to the grand master... lets go.

Let's keep the fluff-hate to another thread and talk about the competitive aspects, please.

Tomb King wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

These kind of negative attitudes are what drag the hobby down.

A lot of people have argued that GK are actually doing that but it is being mitigated some as more people step away from the codex or run more optimal list for the greater good ...

Grey knights are to 40k = Warriors of Chaos are to Fantasy.

I'm with Eidolon, these kind of negative attitudes are one of the primary downers for the hobby. A lot of players start armies because they like the models, they played them previously when they WEREN'T good, or they like the story/feel behind them. Those players now have to listen to incessant crapping on their army, people whining about playing them, people refusing to play them, and more. That's pretty discouraging once you've put hundreds of dollars into an army, and isn't the community that 40k should have.

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:The fluff thing is three tiered 3 strikes and your out. One he killed a primarch, two he lives in the warp, three he needs a daemonic incursion just to continue his tenure as grand master. Ide hate to be his second in command. What there is a daemonic incursion??? Alright lads im not longer in charge and we need to get this to do list to the grand master... lets go.

Let's keep the fluff-hate to another thread and talk about the competitive aspects, please.

There isnt a reason to hate draigo from a competitive stand point, so you have to fall back on the fluff, which is 100% opinion and useless in a discussion about how overpowered grey knights are/arent.

Regular old grey knights, especially crowe and draigo arent really a problem, and nothing to be afraid of.* Its the inquisition coteaz armies that should worry you. I would much rather fight the 12 man draigo star than a 10 tank coteaz army.

*disclaimer; if you are a scrubatron, then you should be afraid of these 2, as well as 80% of the other armies you could possibly face out there.

Eidolon wrote:Tyranids suck anyways, so your logic is invalid about that.

And in a sentence, a single sentence you have invalidated any points you have made in this discussion sir.

'Army X sucks so your points are invalid' is not the way to go. And the fact that such a statement can be made with regards to the balance of any one army compared to any other is a bad sign indeed.

targetawg wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

These kind of negative attitudes are what drag the hobby down.

A lot of people have argued that GK are actually doing that but it is being mitigated some as more people step away from the codex or run more optimal list for the greater good ...

Grey knights are to 40k = Warriors of Chaos are to Fantasy.

I'm with Eidolon, these kind of negative attitudes are one of the primary downers for the hobby. A lot of players start armies because they like the models, they played them previously when they WEREN'T good, or they like the story/feel behind them. Those players now have to listen to incessant crapping on their army, people whining about playing them, people refusing to play them, and more. That's pretty discouraging once you've put hundreds of dollars into an army, and isn't the community that 40k should have.

This. every single competitive tournament player I know starts up his army because of the models and fluff. Now, the list is often optimized, but I dont know a single competitive player who will pick a list based strictly off on table performance. So, how much more true is that for the fluffy players, or the new guys, or the guy who just wants to push models and doesnt really care? Its frustrating when youre taking a break from school/work to play a draigowing v razorwolf game with your friend, and some neckbeard waddles over to your table to complain about how draigo stabbed mortarion, and lives in the warp, and is killing the fluff.

I hate orks, I think they are the stupidest race in 40k. They arent funny, they arent exciting, I feel the same way about them a lot of people feel about Draigo. But I dont go around complaining about them, as its my opinion. I know it will both create a negative atmosphere, and that nobody cares.

So seriously guys, if you want to whine about draigo fluff and matt ward hate with typical /tg/ neckbeard logic, please do so. But not in a thread titled "Grey Knights are the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade. "

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Tyranids suck anyways, so your logic is invalid about that.

And in a sentence, a single sentence you have invalidated any points you have made in this discussion sir.

'Army X sucks so your points are invalid' is not the way to go. And the fact that such a statement can be made with regards to the balance of any one army compared to any other is a bad sign indeed.

I was posting in reply to this.

Sometimes you have to, you know, take objectives? Ever tried dislodging 10 paladins, a techmarine, librarian and Draigo out of reinforced ruins with sanctuary up....with TYRANIDS?

Not happening, ever. Before you spin a yarn using Mawlocs to knock stuff out of cover or something equally outlandish, try doing it with a TAC tourny list.

I kind of figured the structure of my reply made that obvious. Please try harder, notice how I go through and attempt to refute all of his points, as you should in an actual discussion and debate. Try that next time.

targetawg wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

These kind of negative attitudes are what drag the hobby down.

A lot of people have argued that GK are actually doing that but it is being mitigated some as more people step away from the codex or run more optimal list for the greater good ...

Grey knights are to 40k = Warriors of Chaos are to Fantasy.

I'm with Eidolon, these kind of negative attitudes are one of the primary downers for the hobby. A lot of players start armies because they like the models, they played them previously when they WEREN'T good, or they like the story/feel behind them. Those players now have to listen to incessant crapping on their army, people whining about playing them, people refusing to play them, and more. That's pretty discouraging once you've put hundreds of dollars into an army, and isn't the community that 40k should have.

That road goes two ways, imagine the tyranid player who has sunk 4-5 hundred dollars into his army and gets to put it in a box in the attic because a 200 dollar flavor of the month super army with blatantly over the top rules makes it thoroughly unplayable (moreso than even wolves or IG had done). Ditto for daemons. Ditty for Dark eldar (a new codex) Ditto for blood angels (a new codex). Ditto for Dark angels. Ditto for Chaos. Ditto for Orks. Hell, necrons sit on that list too (also a new codex).

So yeah, an unfun over the top army with bad fluff thats ludicrously popular because its cheap easy and powerful ruins the game for just about half the games other armies. The hate is unfortunate and in most cases it's not the fault of the GK player, but the hate is justified. It's an army that is bad for the game at large, and it is that in a highly visible way.

Eidolon wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Tyranids suck anyways, so your logic is invalid about that.

And in a sentence, a single sentence you have invalidated any points you have made in this discussion sir.

'Army X sucks so your points are invalid' is not the way to go. And the fact that such a statement can be made with regards to the balance of any one army compared to any other is a bad sign indeed.

I was posting in reply to this.

Sometimes you have to, you know, take objectives? Ever tried dislodging 10 paladins, a techmarine, librarian and Draigo out of reinforced ruins with sanctuary up....with TYRANIDS?

Not happening, ever. Before you spin a yarn using Mawlocs to knock stuff out of cover or something equally outlandish, try doing it with a TAC tourny list.

I kind of figured the structure of my reply made that obvious. Please try harder, notice how I go through and attempt to refute all of his points, as you should in an actual discussion and debate. Try that next time.

Yet you still made that statement. I'm sorry, making that statement in response to something else does not validate it in any way, shape or form or make it acceptable. It's still displaying the same sort of attitude, regardless of what you were responding to. He presents a valid point. You refute said point with 'Army X sucks so your point is invalid'.

You may want to try a bit harder and you may want to try to be a bit less condescending. Your statement was made. It shows the same attitude that you complain of. And yet for you it's a valid approach? Nah, sorry mate. Pull the other one. It's got Nemesis Bells on it.