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trinhm03 wrote:
What is your Tau play style? sit back and shoot or more aggressive movements
I'm leaning toward for a more aggressive Tau tactic that's up in the front ranks moving and shooting? Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, Crisis, devil fish+ Breach team ect.. Don't really know what else to field but I feel this tactic is weak to Dreadknots and obv close combat. Any Advise on this way of Tau?

How do you all feel about the Piranha in this type of strategy?

In my opinion Aggressive Mobility is the style of the Eldar, not the Tau.

Eldar dance dangerously, and gamble for great rewards.

Tau, are about Defensive Maneuvering. Constantly attempting to entrap and focus down key sections of the opponent's forces.
I prefer to keep half my army mobile, and half my army static.

The static part often acts as a sort of bait. Providing the opponent with a simple and clear tactical objective.

trinhm03 wrote:
What is your Tau play style? sit back and shoot or more aggressive movements
I'm leaning toward for a more aggressive Tau tactic that's up in the front ranks moving and shooting? Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, Crisis, devil fish+ Breach team ect.. Don't really know what else to field but I feel this tactic is weak to Dreadknots and obv close combat. Any Advise on this way of Tau?

How do you all feel about the Piranha in this type of strategy?

I have a mobile gunline. So i tend to move forward witha good portion of the force with a firebase anchored behind me.

 Talamare wrote:


In my opinion Aggressive Mobility is the style of the Eldar, not the Tau.

Eldar dance dangerously, and gamble for great rewards.

Tau, are about Defensive Maneuvering. Constantly attempting to entrap and focus down key sections of the opponent's forces.
I prefer to keep half my army mobile, and half my army static.

The static part often acts as a sort of bait. Providing the opponent with a simple and clear tactical objective.

What would you consider mobile? Flyers, crisis, Ghostkeel, Drones?

I'm assuming the static units are strike teams, broadsides, tanks ect..

I understand movements are all situational, but are you using mobile units to bait the opponent to come out more so they become vulnerable to your static heavy hitters?

 Talamare wrote:

trinhm03 wrote:
What is your Tau play style? sit back and shoot or more aggressive movements
I'm leaning toward for a more aggressive Tau tactic that's up in the front ranks moving and shooting? Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, Crisis, devil fish+ Breach team ect.. Don't really know what else to field but I feel this tactic is weak to Dreadknots and obv close combat. Any Advise on this way of Tau?

How do you all feel about the Piranha in this type of strategy?

In my opinion Aggressive Mobility is the style of the Eldar, not the Tau.

Eldar dance dangerously, and gamble for great rewards.

Tau, are about Defensive Maneuvering. Constantly attempting to entrap and focus down key sections of the opponent's forces.
I prefer to keep half my army mobile, and half my army static.

The static part often acts as a sort of bait. Providing the opponent with a simple and clear tactical objective.

We found the Kau'yon player

I prefer the Mont'ka style of hitting hard and fast, with overwhelming force, at the opponents weakest point to pierce their line like a lance

Turtlesoup wrote:
Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.

Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)

As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

trinhm03 wrote:
What is your Tau play style? sit back and shoot or more aggressive movements
I'm leaning toward for a more aggressive Tau tactic that's up in the front ranks moving and shooting? Ghostkeel, Stealth suits, Crisis, devil fish+ Breach team ect.. Don't really know what else to field but I feel this tactic is weak to Dreadknots and obv close combat. Any Advise on this way of Tau?

How do you all feel about the Piranha in this type of strategy?

In my opinion Aggressive Mobility is the style of the Eldar, not the Tau.

Eldar dance dangerously, and gamble for great rewards.

Tau, are about Defensive Maneuvering. Constantly attempting to entrap and focus down key sections of the opponent's forces.
I prefer to keep half my army mobile, and half my army static.

The static part often acts as a sort of bait. Providing the opponent with a simple and clear tactical objective.

We found the Kau'yon player

I prefer the Mont'ka style of hitting hard and fast, with overwhelming force, at the opponents weakest point to pierce their line like a lance

Preach it. I always loved being up and in the front lines dancing around hitting hard. Now I can't. All Tau can do now is gunline and sort of soft reposition. I don't want to buy 4 commanders for spam list either since it's so unfluffy.

Pottsey wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:
Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.

Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)

As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.

Bodyguards cost too much to protect him.

 Fueli wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:
Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.

Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)

As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.

Bodyguards cost too much to protect him.

Perhaps but I am not so sure on that. That shear amount of damage he can absorb like that seems worthwhile to me. Stick him near the front and absorb all those smites for example with little end damage. Its a great mortal wound soak. Even so you can still take the Ethereal or more likely Aun’Va and the possible warlord trait and try and go for x2 FNP without the bodyguard. Or x3 FNP on a commander suit.

Pottsey wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:
Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.

Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)

As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.

getting 6+ feel no pain = to adding slightly more than two wounds on him....not nearly enough considering that many list out there can destroy a 20 wound stormsurge in a turn of shooting. The ethereals power do not work on vehicle. Making a warlord is just giving your opponent free slay the warlord victory point as he can be easily targeted by any units. 14 wound 3+ armor save is very very fragile for a unit that cannot hide behind drones and cost over 200 pts. As for damage the marker light does not boost his to wound roll which generate the d3 mortal wounds. its always on a 5+ for monster and vehicles and 6+ on everything else. So only a possible 9 wounds at long range....quite disappointing in all my games that i brought him. It is not possible to one shot a predator at long range where else the predator has a good chance to one shot him in one turn of shooting. Longstrike is a tank ace on a lousy over-priced tank.....too bad he is the closest viable long range unit for tau army.

how does everyone feel about the xv-9 suits? Seems like a strong elite choice with 5 wounds and the extra ability to reduce models charging it.

Packing them with shield generators with 2 fusion cascades seems like they are right up in your face.

Pottsey wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:
Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.

Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)

As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.

BS doesn't affect Mortal Wound chance

Tho, I suppose it is possible to give him 3x 6+FNP as you illustrated
It would require Bodyguards with Stimulant and an Ethereal running along

Using Lascannons aimed at Longstrike
His basic survivability is 13 / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 10.02 Lascannons
As a Warlord he goes from (13 / (5/6)) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 12.03 Lascannons

Bodyguards can increase this to technically be...
((13 / (5/6)) / (1/6)) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 72.20 Lascannon Shots... but you would need a TON of Bodyguards...
Since 72 Lascannons are what would kill you from essentially rolling 1s on the Bodyguard transfers
72.20 Lascannon Shots equals 72.20 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 3.5 = 77.99 Wounds that wound need to go onto Bodyguards, this is assuming Warlord otherwise it would be like ~93 Wounds.

Each Bodyguard is 3 mortal wounds base
With Stims it becomes (3 / (5/6)) = 3.6
With Stims AND Ethereal it becomes ((3 / (5/6)) / (5/6)) = 4.32 Mortal Wounds

77.99 / 4.32 = 18 Bodyguards surrounding Longstrike minimal!
Okay, that was just silly~
What about a single squad of 3 Bodyguards with Ethereal, roughly how much extra survivability to expect?
3 * 4.32 = 12.96 additional wounds
((13 / (5/6)) + 12.96) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 22.03 Lascannon Shots

Bodyguard are exactly 50 points with Stims, no guns... so 150
Ethereal is 45 points. So 195 points total

Overall, I think the idea is decent. However there are a lot of foundation issues with it.
1 - Longstrike is strong, but he isn't 400 points worth of defenses
2 - Hell, Longstrike is about 2/3rds the power/potential of a basic trash Las-Pred... So, it's arguable Longstrike is barely worth it even without protection...
3 - Crisis Suits are already overcosted, and Bodyguards are even more expensive
4 - The ideal weapon for Bodyguards would probably be something with a bit of range so that they can hang out with Longstrike. There are no good weapons currently with decent range, and the one that exist needs ATS.

I would say if the combo gets roughly 100 points cheaper, it might be worth using.

trinhm03 wrote:
how does everyone feel about the xv-9 suits? Seems like a strong elite choice with 5 wounds and the extra ability to reduce models charging it.

Packing them with shield generators with 2 fusion cascades seems like they are right up in your face.

XV9s are much more interesting ins this edition - but only with TBBC or FC. The other 2 options are too weak.

 Talamare wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

Turtlesoup wrote:
Longstrike - a very mediocre unit that dies rather quickly there is no good way to protect it. In the game that it survives, it does insignificant amount of damage. I rather use it as fire magnets for first turn opponent shooting since most of my opponent happily shoots a character tanks without any extra drone protection. I am really considering its usage in my list.

Unless I misread a rule he is easy to protect and could be one off the hardest Tau targets in game to kill. Make him a warlord and get FNP from the war trait, put a bodyguard with stim injectors, and an Ethereal to invocate Stone near him. That’s T7, 13 wounds and if I am not mistaken 6 saves per wound. He can even tank mortal wounds like this. (EDIT was thinking commander, no stims on longstrike so 5 saves per wound?)

As for damage with the railgun he causes D3 mortal wounds on top of normal damage on a 5+ against vehicles or monsters. 4+ if you have +1BS from markers.

BS doesn't affect Mortal Wound chance

Tho, I suppose it is possible to give him 3x 6+FNP as you illustrated
It would require Bodyguards with Stimulant and an Ethereal running along

Using Lascannons aimed at Longstrike
His basic survivability is 13 / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 10.02 Lascannons
As a Warlord he goes from (13 / (5/6)) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 12.03 Lascannons

Bodyguards can increase this to technically be...
((13 / (5/6)) / (1/6)) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 72.20 Lascannon Shots... but you would need a TON of Bodyguards...
Since 72 Lascannons are what would kill you from essentially rolling 1s on the Bodyguard transfers
72.20 Lascannon Shots equals 72.20 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 * 3.5 = 77.99 Wounds that wound need to go onto Bodyguards, this is assuming Warlord otherwise it would be like ~93 Wounds.

Each Bodyguard is 3 mortal wounds base
With Stims it becomes (3 / (5/6)) = 3.6
With Stims AND Ethereal it becomes ((3 / (5/6)) / (5/6)) = 4.32 Mortal Wounds

77.99 / 4.32 = 18 Bodyguards surrounding Longstrike minimal!
Okay, that was just silly~
What about a single squad of 3 Bodyguards with Ethereal, roughly how much extra survivability to expect?
3 * 4.32 = 12.96 additional wounds
((13 / (5/6)) + 12.96) / (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5) = 22.03 Lascannon Shots

Bodyguard are exactly 50 points with Stims, no guns... so 150
Ethereal is 45 points. So 195 points total

Overall, I think the idea is decent. However there are a lot of foundation issues with it.
1 - Longstrike is strong, but he isn't 400 points worth of defenses
2 - Hell, Longstrike is about 2/3rds the power/potential of a basic trash Las-Pred... So, it's arguable Longstrike is barely worth it even without protection...
3 - Crisis Suits are already overcosted, and Bodyguards are even more expensive
4 - The ideal weapon for Bodyguards would probably be something with a bit of range so that they can hang out with Longstrike. There are no good weapons currently with decent range, and the one that exist needs ATS.

I would say if the combo gets roughly 100 points cheaper, it might be worth using.

It could get pricy and thanks for the corrections on BS. The way I see it is you already have a squad of Crisis it’s worthwhile to think about upgrading them to bodyguards with stims for Long strike. Personally I would take Aun’Va over a basic Ethereal and the idea would most likely work better on a 3 crisis, 1 commander build with an extra stim pack on the commander. As I understand it you can roll the armor save & stim for a total of x3 FNP on the commander. Then pass the wound to the bodyguards and use another x2 FNP so up to 6 saves per wound. Aun’Va can cast two powers; he can do the same power twice on different targets?

Anyway it’s not a must have tactic, just something to keep in mind.

Pottsey wrote:

It could get pricy and thanks for the corrections on BS. The way I see it is you already have a squad of Crisis it’s worthwhile to think about upgrading them to bodyguards with stims for Long strike. Personally I would take Aun’Va over a basic Ethereal and the idea would most likely work better on a 3 crisis, 1 commander build with an extra stim pack on the commander. As I understand it you can roll the armor save & stim for a total of x3 FNP on the commander. Then pass the wound to the bodyguards and use another x2 FNP so up to 6 saves per wound. Aun’Va can cast two powers; he can do the same power twice on different targets?

Anyway it’s not a must have tactic, just something to keep in mind.

Aun'va can't call the same ability twice, even if he could. They wouldn't stack.

You would need the Commander infront of the army for this to work
If Stims went back to being 5+++ saves this would be a pretty great tactic.

Let's see
((((6 / (5/6)) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6)) = 14.92 effective mortal wounds
((((6 / (5/6)) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (1/2)) = 29.85 wounds if you take shield for 4++
((((6 / (5/6)) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (1/3)) = 44.78 wounds if you're allowed normal armor saves
((((6 / (5/6)) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (1/3)) = 37.32 wounds if you drop the stims on the commander


((((6 / (4/6)) / (4/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (5/6) / (1/3)) = 69.98 effective wounds if you're allowed normal armor saves and they buff stims back to 5+++

Seems like it might be a decent distraction carnifax?

The weak point of this list tho is probably still the Crisis Bodyguards, tho a swarm of Drones would help that
potential Deathstar?

Listening to the latest frontline and Reece has implied GW has heard the Riptide complaints at least and he will be adjusted. Even he admits the Riptide "couldn't get any more useless."

This brings me hope they take a look at the rest of the book and rebalance commanders so they don't need to be spammed (but we still need good anti-tank).

I'd say points decrease for Crisis suits and increase Crisis Bodyguards to BS3+. Also a points drop for Broadsides.

I don't get why Crisis Bodyguards are the same BS as regular Crisis teams. Fluffwise being in the bodyguard of the commander is the final combat service step before becoming a Commander yourself, they're the cream of Fire Caste infantry with the most experience, except for commander units. Increasing them to BS3+ would serve to highlight that, providing a unit which actually falls between regular crisis teams and commanders in terms of shooting effectiveness.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I'd say points decrease for Crisis suits and increase Crisis Bodyguards to BS3+. Also a points drop for Broadsides.

I don't get why Crisis Bodyguards are the same BS as regular Crisis teams. Fluffwise being in the bodyguard of the commander is the final combat service step before becoming a Commander yourself, they're the cream of Fire Caste infantry with the most experience, except for commander units. Increasing them to BS3+ would serve to highlight that, providing a unit which actually falls between regular crisis teams and commanders in terms of shooting effectiveness.

I think if they did buff Bodyguards to BS3+ no one would take regular old Crisis suits anymore. They would have to either significantly decrease the cost of regular Crisis suits (please GW please?) or increase the cost of bodyguards. I'm not sure what the right answer is, although fluffwise you're definitely onto something and I could see it making sense from that viewpoint.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I'd say points decrease for Crisis suits and increase Crisis Bodyguards to BS3+. Also a points drop for Broadsides.

I don't get why Crisis Bodyguards are the same BS as regular Crisis teams. Fluffwise being in the bodyguard of the commander is the final combat service step before becoming a Commander yourself, they're the cream of Fire Caste infantry with the most experience, except for commander units. Increasing them to BS3+ would serve to highlight that, providing a unit which actually falls between regular crisis teams and commanders in terms of shooting effectiveness.

I think if they did buff Bodyguards to BS3+ no one would take regular old Crisis suits anymore. They would have to either significantly decrease the cost of regular Crisis suits (please GW please?) or increase the cost of bodyguards. I'm not sure what the right answer is, although fluffwise you're definitely onto something and I could see it making sense from that viewpoint.

Oh yeah, it would definitely warrant a bigger points difference between regular and bodyguard XV8's than we have now. Would also like to see a buff and corresponding points increase to Plasma Rifles, either with extra range or more strength. I mean, the Imperiums new plasma guns for their Primaris have 30" range and the Crisis plasma rifles have longer barrels which imply greater accuracy, not to mention that we no longer have the "Doesn't get hot" advantage as the Imperium plasma weapons now no longer get hot unless they fire an even more powerful attack. So whereas before we sacrificed a point of strength to not get hot we now effectively sacrifice 2 points of strength and a point of damage.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I'd say points decrease for Crisis suits and increase Crisis Bodyguards to BS3+. Also a points drop for Broadsides.

I don't get why Crisis Bodyguards are the same BS as regular Crisis teams. Fluffwise being in the bodyguard of the commander is the final combat service step before becoming a Commander yourself, they're the cream of Fire Caste infantry with the most experience, except for commander units. Increasing them to BS3+ would serve to highlight that, providing a unit which actually falls between regular crisis teams and commanders in terms of shooting effectiveness.

I think if they did buff Bodyguards to BS3+ no one would take regular old Crisis suits anymore. They would have to either significantly decrease the cost of regular Crisis suits (please GW please?) or increase the cost of bodyguards. I'm not sure what the right answer is, although fluffwise you're definitely onto something and I could see it making sense from that viewpoint.

Crisis Bodyguards are there for the special ability to protect the Commander. Giving them 3+ BS would create more problems than it would solve, namely, what would the point of markerlights be? Give them +2 BS with re roll 1's? Do you have any idea how much hate we would get if we hit on a 2+ with re roll 1's on units other than a commander? Do you have any idea how much points cost would increase on the bodyguards? As much as I like the idea no thanks. I like them cheap so my Commander is protected when all my drones are gone.

I do think we may see changes to Plasma Rifles in our new codex. All the rules changed across the board for Marines, Primaris Marines, and Chaos Marines Plasma Technology. They need to update Tau and Eldar because these 2 races are supposed to have the most advanced plasma tech in the galaxy according to fluff. Also, we may see changes to other weapons, and hopefully we can equip a brand new weapon on our crisis suits, that I wish for more than anything ATM.

 Gamgee wrote:
Listening to the latest frontline and Reece has implied GW has heard the Riptide complaints at least and he will be adjusted. Even he admits the Riptide "couldn't get any more useless."

This brings me hope they take a look at the rest of the book and rebalance commanders so they don't need to be spammed (but we still need good anti-tank).

Oh yeah. After seeing point and rules changes in SM, CSM and GK codexes, I'm assured things will change for us too. And for the better!

 Crusaderobr wrote:

I do think we may see changes to Plasma Rifles in our new codex. All the rules changed across the board for Marines, Primaris Marines, and Chaos Marines Plasma Technology. They need to update Tau and Eldar because these 2 races are supposed to have the most advanced plasma tech in the galaxy according to fluff. Also, we may see changes to other weapons, and hopefully we can equip a brand new weapon on our crisis suits, that I wish for more than anything ATM.

Tau plasma has explicitly NOT been more advanced than the Imperium's. Merely more reliable. Imperial plasma guns were hotter (higher STR) and they had bigger plasma weapons (plamsa cannons, etc), but were unstable because most of the guns were either thousands of years old or assembled by people working by rote, not people who understood the technology.

In 8th, imperial plasma (including Chaos, really) became more reliable, but it now can be dialed up to unstable levels. I think this is a great rules option, and the Tau have something similar in Ion weaponry. I wouldn't be surprised if Tau plasma jumped to S7, but was unable to overcharge (keeping with the reliable theme), but then I'd expect its points cost to jump.

I don't see Crisis suits getting new guns, as GW is very much headed in the direction of "If it's not in the box, it's not an option".

As for the Eldar, the Starcannon doesn't need upgrading. 36" Heavy2 S6 AP-3 D3 is pretty good compared to a Plasma Cannon (the 3 damage is fantastic).

 John Prins wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

I do think we may see changes to Plasma Rifles in our new codex. All the rules changed across the board for Marines, Primaris Marines, and Chaos Marines Plasma Technology. They need to update Tau and Eldar because these 2 races are supposed to have the most advanced plasma tech in the galaxy according to fluff. Also, we may see changes to other weapons, and hopefully we can equip a brand new weapon on our crisis suits, that I wish for more than anything ATM.

Tau plasma has explicitly NOT been more advanced than the Imperium's. Merely more reliable. Imperial plasma guns were hotter (higher STR) and they had bigger plasma weapons (plamsa cannons, etc), but were unstable because most of the guns were either thousands of years old or assembled by people working by rote, not people who understood the technology.

In 8th, imperial plasma (including Chaos, really) became more reliable, but it now can be dialed up to unstable levels. I think this is a great rules option, and the Tau have something similar in Ion weaponry. I wouldn't be surprised if Tau plasma jumped to S7, but was unable to overcharge (keeping with the reliable theme), but then I'd expect its points cost to jump.

I don't see Crisis suits getting new guns, as GW is very much headed in the direction of "If it's not in the box, it's not an option".

As for the Eldar, the Starcannon doesn't need upgrading. 36" Heavy2 S6 AP-3 D3 is pretty good compared to a Plasma Cannon (the 3 damage is fantastic).

To be more accurate...
Tau had Ion that had a unique mechanic
It allowed you to shoot it normally or overcharge which caused to get hot for an additional strength

In contrast to Plasma Weaponry, Ion was balanced by the fact it had poor AP

In 8e, they basically said "That's a cool mechanic, let's just make that standard on all Plasma Weapons for a different army."

With the new reduced point costs, the classic Plasma profile would be considered good. Now they are just overpowered.
The new Plasma Rules for Imperium is one of the broken changes in 8e, they should have just reverted them all back with the Codex releases.

Edit
As far as Fluff is concerned, Tau has shown to develop a more advanced version of the Plasma Weapon compared to that of the Imperium.
The main difference is that Tau prefer using EM Weaponry instead of Plasma. As they have decided they can get more power from it, much more safely.

Tau does spam the crud out of Plasma Weaponry, their most common gun is a blend of Plasma and EM Technology...
Every gun called "Pulse" is using Plasma.

 John Prins wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Tau plasma jumped to S7, but was unable to overcharge (keeping with the reliable theme), but then I'd expect its points cost to jump.

An Imperial plasmagun is only 2p more expensive than our plasma rifle for lots more efficiency. I don't see the point of increasing the cost of ours (if they jack up their S to 7) if theirs will still be more cost-effective, but at least ours will make sense as 'safer without overcharging'.
Or even keep the S6, but give it D2.

So I got a couple of games in with suit spam tau, I'll write a short batrep below and draw my conclusion, wonder what everyone thinks.

List
2x quad fusion
2x coldstar
3x3 stealth with homer and drone controller
1x4 flamer crisis
1x3 CiB crisis
1x3 plasma crisis
Couple of gundrone squadrons
everything but the stealth/commanders had max gun drones.

Game 1, the relic vs:
2x daemon prince
6x10 tzaangors in double storm bolter rhinos
3 maulerfiends.
big blob of flamers

Early game, he goes first, jump everything on the relic. I deployed stealth out of maulerfiend/DP charge range, but not too far back warptimed prince.couls make it.

He piles all the rhinos on the relic and charges 1 stealth team, With warp timing daemon prince (took the bait) between him rolling a lot of 2s to hit and me making some saves I end up with 1 surviving stealth member.

In my turn I deepstrike everything besides the plasma suits(more.on this later) and I have 2 drop zones, hoping to split his forces a bit.


My flamer suits light up his flamers, killing most, my fusion commander sticks 4 wounds on his daemon princes and he makes 4/4 5+ saves....
my other fusion commander sticks 4 wounds on his maulerfiend and he makes 3/4 5+ saves!! argh. I end up shooting most of my firebase (bunch of gun drones, 2 cold stars, stealth teams, at his daemon prince, taking it to 1 wound, the CiB team shot up the maulerfiend and ended up doing around doing a couple of wounds, down to about 7.

I charge a coldstar and the fusion commander into the 1 wound DP, flamers suits gundrones charge 2 rhinos, and a stealth team charge 2 more.

in combat the coldstar kills the Deal on prince, rest does nothing really.

His turn, rhinos reverse and a bunch of tZaangors have gotten out. his other daemon prince, 1 unit of ghors and a fiend go for the commanders who just killed the prince, the wounded maulerfiend and 1 Unit of ghors goes for my other fusion commanders. last fiend and 2 units of ghost go for the drones that just charged the rhino and the final unit of ghors go for my stealth team which is fighting a rhino.

So I'm clenching my buttocks.

ghors tank almost all my overwatch, his deamon prince attacks my (warlord) coldstar but I role hot on saves (shield gen !) and he takes 3 wounds.

The fusion commander next to him takes a bunch of damage from the ghors and fiend, surviving with 2 wounds.

My drones and other quad fusion commander die miserably. All in all really not as bad as I was expecting !

In my turn everything retreats, plasma crisis join the party and the daemon prince passes 3 5++ from my fusion guns again. (10/11 for those keeping score)

I end up killing a fiend and the prince (and a lot of ghors as well as just last flamers)


The rest of the battle involves me kiting, declaring a devastating kouyun turn 3, wiping out all the infantry and starting to kill the rhinos really fast. he concedes.

Crisis and stealth team in this game were really really good at taking damage and tanking through it. But their damage output is really mediocre.


Game 2 was vs blood.angels, 4 objectives

Priest
azablabla
mephiston.
raven
3x devs (2x4 missle, 1x4.hbolters)
2 twin.assault razorbacks
2x double plasma assault squads
3 death company teams.
dreadnought.

I have turn 1, deploy and deep strike aggressively, kill or charge all the devs and stick 11 wounds oan the raven.

In his turn he has real trouble placing his deep striking units as I have sealed off a large portion of the table.

His charges are long range and take a lot of overwatch. Mephiston charges a fusion suit, take a hit/wound in.overwatch and dies horrible. some death company make it into my quad commander but can't kill it, he kills 2!

we play a second turn but after I delete 90% of his army, kill the raven, a razorback and astorath(ha remembered the name) he conceded.

The good
Fusion commanders&gun drones
stealth, -1 and 2+ in cover is good. But the deployment is sooo awesome and the homing beacons allow for some crazy turn 1 attacks.

the decent:
Coldstars, but mostly because I didn't need their mobility in these games, I.think they're good/great
Crisis. Flamer crisis are amazing but rolling their stuff is tedious
CiB... okay, not really pulling.their weight

The rubbish

plasma crisis.

No idea what they're good against. First game I kept them jb reserve because everyhing was still in rhinos, but even sfter they got out they suck vs ghors. They're bad againdt rhinos. They're not very.good vs marines. Only bright glimmer was them in rapid fire range under kouyon...Their best use was brining drones up the field.

I think for crisis suits, the tanking power is awesome! T5 3W really shines. Damage output is pathetic (except for the flamers) for points spend.

I'll try out xv9s next as I really just want to deepstrike gundrones and xv9s can bring 4 each!

Okay, let me know.what you think!

Fruzzle

 Talamare wrote:


In 8e, they basically said "That's a cool mechanic, let's just make that standard on all Plasma Weapons for a different army."

It would have been a great rule if imperial plasma had dropped to S6 'safe' and S7 'gets hot'. Now we end up with OP plasma troops because there are many, many ways to get re-rolls on 1's.

The Tidewall Gunrig is starting to become a main unit in my army it can be really good backed up with marker lights. With +1BS and reroll’s 1’s those 2 shots can do high damage. Last night it won man of the match when it did 15 wounds on turn 1 killing a 13 wound target. It massively out damaged Longstrike. With marker support broadsides and Gunrigs have so much more damage potential then Longstrike and hammerheads.

The droneport as well makes a really nice markerplatforms. 1 Fireblade, 9 pathfinders and 4 marker drones. That’s 5 markers that hit on 2+ so what I do is put 2 on one enemy unit, then 3 on another. Then split fire the pathfinders to try and get 1`+ BS on two enemy units. It also helps the Rail rifles to stay alive.

Pottsey wrote:
The Tidewall Gunrig is starting to become a main unit in my army it can be really good backed up with marker lights. With +1BS and reroll’s 1’s those 2 shots can do high damage. Last night it won man of the match when it did 15 wounds on turn 1 killing a 13 wound target. It massively out damaged Longstrike. With marker support broadsides and Gunrigs have so much more damage potential then Longstrike and hammerheads.

I wonder...
Base 139 / ((2 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (2 * 1/3 * 1/6 * 2)) = 78.18
ML1 139 / ((2 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (2 * 14/36 * 1/6 * 2)) = 67.01
ML5 139 / ((2 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (2 * 21/36 * 1/6 * 2)) = 44.67

LongRails
Base 175 / ((1 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (1 * 5/6 * 1/3 * 2)) = 70
ML1 175 / ((1 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (1 * 35/36 * 1/3 * 2)) = 60

HHRails
Base 155 / ((1 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (1 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 2)) = 87.18
LR 155 / ((1 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (1 * 5/6 * 1/6 * 2)) = 69.75
ML5 155 / ((1 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 3.5) + (1 * 35/36 * 1/6 * 2)) = 59.78


Story checks out, but there are some minor issues with using the Gunrig, but overall Nice.

Crisis flamers 3 or 2 with ATS?

 Haechi wrote:
Crisis flamers 3 or 2 with ATS?

Unless you are expecting to come up against a lot of 2+ saves, then 3 Flamers is the better option. Against MEQs 3 flamers is equal to 2+ATS. Against GEQs, the triple flamer has higher damage output. The only scenario it is better to have 2 flamers and an ATS is against models with 2+ saves.

3 Flamer suits also have a higher damage potential if you roll hot on your hits and wounds and/or your opponent rolls cold on their saves. You can theoretically get up to 18 wounds out of a triple flamer suit vs 12 for a dual flamer suit.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Haechi wrote:
Crisis flamers 3 or 2 with ATS?

Unless you are expecting to come up against a lot of 2+ saves, then 3 Flamers is the better option. Against MEQs 3 flamers is equal to 2+ATS. Against GEQs, the triple flamer has higher damage output. The only scenario it is better to have 2 flamers and an ATS is against models with 2+ saves.

3 Flamer suits also have a higher damage potential if you roll hot on your hits and wounds and/or your opponent rolls cold on their saves. You can theoretically get up to 18 wounds out of a triple flamer suit vs 12 for a dual flamer suit.

There is technically 1 more scenario in which 2+ATS is advantageous...

It's not often spoken of, but it's still true...

Close Combat XD
ATS works in Melee too
2~3x S5 AP-1 Attacks? Not bad
Just need to ignore that painful 5+ to hit...

They really should make Farsight's Way of the Short Blade be a +1 WS for Suits within 6"