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Yup - and after the weapon packs too. Those long range heavy weapons should make a difference for Escher.

Some of the weapon costs are a bit of a head scratcher straight away.

Got caught up in the hype and pre-ordered the 'starter'.. After watching the MWG review I cancelled my order. Quote from Josh "Literally, one of the most boring games I've played". I'm not paying full price for a 'starter' with half the game and day 1 DLC to play the real Necromunda. Necromunda does not work in 2D, and without advancement it's just pushing generic models around a board. GW should have done something useful with that card and used it for 3D terrain, and included the full rules off the bat.

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
lol over reaction or what, why are you on a discussion forum if you only want people to agree with you. I agree 1 set of games is not an accurate sample. I'm happy to just try for my self for the most part, if there are imbalances then they can be addressed.

Then we agree to disagree. Five scenarios is enough imo to evaluate a game. I also play Freebooter´s Fate which is a skirmish game with selective activation. In this game you can use the Overwatch mechanic and it does not hinder the game in any way. Perhaps it is wise to try this out in Necromunda Underhive to deter Goliaths from using one-dimensional play.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Got caught up in the hype and pre-ordered the 'starter'.. After watching the MWG review I cancelled my order. Quote from Josh "Literally, one of the most boring games I've played". I'm not paying full price for a 'starter' with half the game and day 1 DLC to play the real Necromunda. Necromunda does not work in 2D, and without advancement it's just pushing generic models around a board. GW should have done something useful with that card and used it for 3D terrain, and included the full rules off the bat.

I'm thinking the opposite. What you saw was a 2d demo.

What we will have is advancements, injuries and all that jazz. The stuff we love from Necromunda, the backbone of specialist games like gorkamorka and mordheim. I have no worries this will be an awesome game, just not at start and especially not on 2d.

A couple of points about the Miniwargaming review. The review was based off a series of gameplay videos they did. They guy playing Escher had terrible luck with the dice throughout all the videos. It also seems they were not playing the charging rules right. (this is according to other people who watched the video.)
Also on warhammer live we have seen 4 games of Necromunda so far, two each of underhive and gang war. In both modes each side won once. Ironically the two gang war games were played against the owners of Miniwargaming.

Chikout wrote:
A couple of points about the Miniwargaming review. The review was based off a series of gameplay videos they did. They guy playing Escher had terrible luck with the dice throughout all the videos. It also seems they were not playing the charging rules right. (this is according to other people who watched the video.)
Also on warhammer live we have seen 4 games of Necromunda so far, two each of underhive and gang war. In both modes each side won once. Ironically the two gang war games were played against the owners of Miniwargaming.

Afaik charging is M + D3 instead of simply doubling move allowance. This could be a serious mistake indeed.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Afaik charging is M + D3 instead of simply doubling move allowance. This could be a serious mistake indeed.

They were getting the distance right but apparently you cannot charge a model you cannot see (no charging round corners) . The goliath player did this a few times.

Chikout wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Afaik charging is M + D3 instead of simply doubling move allowance. This could be a serious mistake indeed.

They were getting the distance right but apparently you cannot charge a model you cannot see (no charging round corners) . The goliath player did this a few times.

And I always thought it is possible to smell an Escher´s perfume a mile away. Apparently not. Thanks for the info.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Chikout wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Afaik charging is M + D3 instead of simply doubling move allowance. This could be a serious mistake indeed.

They were getting the distance right but apparently you cannot charge a model you cannot see (no charging round corners) . The goliath player did this a few times.

And I always thought it is possible to smell an Escher´s perfume a mile away. Apparently not. Thanks for the info.

Oh, no, if you're close enough to smell her perfume, it’s probably already killed you; all that’s left now is to find out which of six interesting ways it’s going to do so:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Chikout wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Afaik charging is M + D3 instead of simply doubling move allowance. This could be a serious mistake indeed.

They were getting the distance right but apparently you cannot charge a model you cannot see (no charging round corners) . The goliath player did this a few times.

And I always thought it is possible to smell an Escher´s perfume a mile away. Apparently not. Thanks for the info.

Oh, no, if you're close enough to smell her perfume, it’s probably already killed you; all that’s left now is to find out which of six interesting ways it’s going to do so:

Hmm, that close? I didn´t know that Sly Marbo changed gender and joined House Escher.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Chikout wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Afaik charging is M + D3 instead of simply doubling move allowance. This could be a serious mistake indeed.

They were getting the distance right but apparently you cannot charge a model you cannot see (no charging round corners) . The goliath player did this a few times.

And I always thought it is possible to smell an Escher´s perfume a mile away. Apparently not. Thanks for the info.

Oh, no, if you're close enough to smell her perfume, it’s probably already killed you; all that’s left now is to find out which of six interesting ways it’s going to do so:

Hmm, that close? I didn´t know that Sly Marbo changed gender and joined House Escher.

Never wondered who his mother was

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Chikout wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

Afaik charging is M + D3 instead of simply doubling move allowance. This could be a serious mistake indeed.

They were getting the distance right but apparently you cannot charge a model you cannot see (no charging round corners) . The goliath player did this a few times.

And I always thought it is possible to smell an Escher´s perfume a mile away. Apparently not. Thanks for the info.

Oh, no, if you're close enough to smell her perfume, it’s probably already killed you; all that’s left now is to find out which of six interesting ways it’s going to do so:

Hmm, that close? I didn´t know that Sly Marbo changed gender and joined House Escher.

Never wondered who his mother was

That´s a good one.
I wonder how she looks like? Definitely an amazonian beauty with camo paint for make-up. I heard she is still daydreaming once in a while of her immaculate conception. Sly´s experience is measured by the length of his catachan knife. Well, his mother must surely wield a "browdsowd" by now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx8sl2uC46A
(5:34 min)

Can't say that the MWG review was very interesting imo. Guys seems dissapointed that they changed the mechanics of the game, while I think it would have been very dissapointing if they had only done a re-release of the old rules. It remains to be seen if these changes were for the better, but I'm still fairly optimistic

You guys seem surprised tha MWG got the rules wrong

MWG are to fething up the rules what BOLS is to Click-bait.

Anyone not buying cos of josh saying its boring lol. Its not the games fault he's tactically clueless

 Motograter wrote:
Anyone not buying cos of josh saying its boring lol. Its not the games fault he's tactically clueless

Plus he was kinda consistently losing/bad dice rolls I think it left a bad taste in his mouth. I am glad they updated the rules as I felt the old rules seemed a tad clunky and dated. It seems like he was reaching for something to complain about. I'm certainly still getting the game. Its definitely a light version of Necromunda but the contents are great imo. When I feel like scaling things up I can simply do so when I'm ready and have the money for proper terrain.

 notprop wrote:
You guys seem surprised tha MWG got the rules wrong

MWG are to fething up the rules what BOLS is to Click-bait.

Watching Quirk play alpha legion...

I've never seen a game implode before

Either way from the various reviews and local demos I have seen I should be able to sit tight and get a buyers remorse copy cheap in a week or so.

It strikes me as a schizophrenic release the core box to get new blood in is a slightly poor incomplete version of the game likely to put people off.

But for veterans and more experienced gamers you have to buy the core box of stuff you may not want or need to get the 1st half of the rulebook. Then you have to buy the 2nd half of the rule book so you can play the fullish game.

I am not sure whom the target graphic for this was beyond the person who's hobby is buying which GW was supposed to have moved beyond.

Josh came off as a total douche.

Also I cannot see how alternate activation would be worse than igoyougo if one gang is cc-oriented and the other is tooled for long range.

Will be interesting to see if Underhive is unbalanced - or if Escher just requires more skill and cunning.

SeanDrake wrote:
Either way from the various reviews and local demos I have seen I should be able to sit tight and get a buyers remorse copy cheap in a week or so.

It strikes me as a schizophrenic release the core box to get new blood in is a slightly poor incomplete version of the game likely to put people off.

But for veterans and more experienced gamers you have to buy the core box of stuff you may not want or need to get the 1st half of the rulebook. Then you have to buy the 2nd half of the rule book so you can play the fullish game.

I am not sure whom the target graphic for this was beyond the person who's hobby is buying which GW was supposed to have moved beyond.

It's a core box for the rules - which they made playable out of the box

Now every subsequent release will be building on to the proper 3D, full scale Necromunda.

I don't really see what's so odd about it, it's exactly the same as they have done with blood bowl.

It's pretty obvious that to enjoy necro you'll have to buy the gang war supplement. It's deplorable that they have separated the rules like this, but I don't think we can judge the game without it

I was originally going to pre order Necro, now I'm going to wait until my Delaque get some models.

I'm kinda pissed that you have to buy a supplement to get the feel of the original in 3d.

But all things considered....I don't really want to wait like a year before I buy it, so I'm kinda torn. I'll just take the $ I was going to use for Necro and just buy more 40k models.

Vorian wrote:

I don't really see what's so odd about it, it's exactly the same as they have done with blood bowl.

Yes, it is exactly what they did in blood bowl. The so called "advanced" rules is really just the core rules in 99% of the games. The difference is that the two blood bowl teams in the starter is still incomplete 1 year after release. I hope they don't do the same with Necromunda.

It's just like buying an old style sports car

the basic model works, but it's got a leaky soft top, underpowered engine and boring paint

but for the majority of buyers that's not a problem it will do just fine, give them a bit of fun to drive it now and then, most of the time it will be in the garage

but the enthusiast will want to get an uprated engine, then maybe that improved soft top that doesn't leak,

or even the really expensive hard top that is a nightmare to store when you're not using it,

and after all that maybe a custom paint job

yes the car will be better after all that but for most people the money it costs won't equal the extra fun it brings

New Necromunda is very similar the box they're selling is fine, and most new players will never miss what they've never seen, all of us old timers who fondly remember the old game are the car enthusiasts who are pre-disposed to want all the bells and whistles (and the old timers who didn't like it first time round aren't going to be wanting it now either)

sure it would please us to get that giant all in box (well maybe not the £300+ price tag and the fact that it still wouldn't have enough terrain) but it would be a really, really hard sell to anybody else and without new people coming in it becomes one more one and done release which so many here seem to hate

 kendoka wrote:
Josh came off as a total douche.

Also I cannot see how alternate activation would be worse than igoyougo if one gang is cc-oriented and the other is tooled for long range.

Will be interesting to see if Underhive is unbalanced - or if Escher just requires more skill and cunning.

Its not that they are unbalanced its the pre made load out that doesnt work in the 2d game. 3D version the escher would school the goliath pre mades. The escher pre designed gang is designed for the 3d version where as the goliath pre made gang is better for the 2d version.
Changing the escher load out would fix the issues but then fixing their kit for 2d likely means their 3d games go the other way. Likely why youll want to get an extra gang box so you can set gangs up for both

And, if push comes to shove, Newcromunda will at least provide miniatures that folks can use in Oldcromunda.

I reserve to gripe about the lack of terrain in the box, though.

The Auld Grump

 streetsamurai wrote:
It's pretty obvious that to enjoy necro you'll have to buy the gang war supplement. It's deplorable that they have separated the rules like this, but I don't think we can judge the game without it

It's not deplorable in any way. Classic Necromunda fans are not the target demographic of the box game, and that is why they released Gang Wars and the models separately. If you had to buy the gakky box game to get the models and the rules for classic Necromunda, you would be bitching about that instead, because it still wouldn't be any cheaper, they LOVE to charge $150 for those boxed games.

So here's the solution: Wait a week for Dakka dakka does not condone piracy, thanks the actual PDF. It's not hard. GW rulebooks and codexes usually aren't worth paying for anyways, they're either half assed or so poorly edited that they have to FAQ the gak out of them.

 Motograter wrote:

Its not that they are unbalanced its the pre made load out that doesnt work in the 2d game. 3D version the escher would school the goliath pre mades. The escher pre designed gang is designed for the 3d version where as the goliath pre made gang is better for the 2d version.
Changing the escher load out would fix the issues but then fixing their kit for 2d likely means their 3d games go the other way. Likely why youll want to get an extra gang box so you can set gangs up for both

I've notice noticed a lot of discrepancies too after hearing everyone talk about how much the one miniwargaming guy hated it. An average Escher ganger is considerably cheaper than a Goliath one (due to their different stats), and because of that the premade warbands just tack on a bunch of extras to fill out the extra points the Eschers have, while in a lot of missions an Escher gang would outnumber the Goliaths. Not to mention the Eschers are stuck in a 2D environment where they can't make good use of their high initiative to climb, or even really take full advantage of their additional movement point. I really don't think it's surprising that the big hulking gang with deadly short ranged firearms and reinforced frontal armor works better in confined quarters than a lightly armored gang that can hardly make use of their mobility. I imagine different gangs will excel in different types of games I think Goliaths and Cawdor (lots of flame weapons) will be very strong in tunnel fights, where Escher, Van Saar, and Delaque will excel in 3D battles where they can make more use of their longer ranged weapons and better shooting/mobility. I'm guessing Orlocks will be the all rounder who will be the middle ground in both types of play.

 zend wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
It's pretty obvious that to enjoy necro you'll have to buy the gang war supplement. It's deplorable that they have separated the rules like this, but I don't think we can judge the game without it

It's not deplorable in any way. Classic Necromunda fans are not the target demographic of the box game, and that is why they released Gang Wars and the models separately. If you had to buy the gakky box game to get the models and the rules for classic Necromunda, you would be bitching about that instead, because it still wouldn't be any cheaper, they LOVE to charge $150 for those boxed games.

So here's the solution: Wait a week for the main rulebook to be distributed via scans or the actual PDF. It's not hard. GW rulebooks and codexes usually aren't worth paying for anyways, they're either half assed or so poorly edited that they have to FAQ the gak out of them.

First of all, old necro fans, or more precisely, old GW fans, are clearly one of the target demographic of this game. Hell the first hired guns they release is a redesign from a model from rogue trader. And even if it wasn't the case, not putting the campaign rules in the main rb is bad for attracting new players, since necro is not much of a game without them. Secondly unless I missed something, there's no indication that GW will release the main rules for free, or even separately from the main game (AFAIK, they haven't done so for BB), so the secnd half of your argument doesn't really make senses.

As a long time Escher player those MWG campaign videos were heartbreaking, to see them treated so poorly by the oaf playing them. He didn't have a clue about their strengths, their weaknesses or more importantly the rules