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SGHarker wrote:
How do you interpret the swift strike stratagem - can it be used in your opponents fight phase? This will of course open up for a lot of tricks !?

It absolutely says in "the" Fight Phase, not "your" Fight Phase so yes. This makes the Warlord Trait much better since he can fight second without paying 2CPs to interrupt, then break off using the strategem.

 bullyboy wrote:

SGHarker wrote:
How do you interpret the swift strike stratagem - can it be used in your opponents fight phase? This will of course open up for a lot of tricks !?

It absolutely says in "the" Fight Phase, not "your" Fight Phase so yes. This makes the Warlord Trait much better since he can fight second without paying 2CPs to interrupt, then break off using the strategem.

you mean first, right?

 Vector Strike wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

SGHarker wrote:
How do you interpret the swift strike stratagem - can it be used in your opponents fight phase? This will of course open up for a lot of tricks !?

It absolutely says in "the" Fight Phase, not "your" Fight Phase so yes. This makes the Warlord Trait much better since he can fight second without paying 2CPs to interrupt, then break off using the strategem.

you mean first, right?

nah, second because you have to assume you get charged somewhere, so it would be opponent chooses charger, then your Warlord goes (without having to pay 2CP), then pay 2CP and break off.

So it only comes in to play if your opponent has charged you with several units. Surely he will pick who ever charged your warlord as his first combat.

SGHarker wrote:
So it only comes in to play if your opponent has charged you with several units. Surely he will pick who ever charged your warlord as his first combat.

it's situational, sure, but you may be willing to pay 2CP elsewhere to interrupt so he has to pick the right target. I could have Black Knights in combat, pay 2CP, interrupt, then 2CP to get out of dodge. That's a lot of CP mind you. I just need to play around with it a little to see how it pans out. he may also have several units in with your warlord, but will only get to use one.

In CA2018 assault cannons and twins have only pts changes in the Space Marine and Grey Knight sections so does that mean we go back to using the Codex costs for our assault cannons as they arent in our section of CA? The same issue is with Blood Angels and Space Wolves they no longer have the CA pts cost for assault cannons. I assume this is because standard Codex Marines have access to Guilliman where as we dont?

Which is kind of unfair to non ultramarine players.

IGNORE THAT, OUR CODEXES HAVE THE SAME PTS COST AS THE CA MOMENT! Brainfart haha!!!!

OK, so drop pod is still pants right, but what about some plasma vets? A vet with plasmagun or combi-plasma and stormshield is now 27pts compared to 34pts it was previously. Not sure what else I'd put in the pod (probably a 5 man tac sqd actually, not because they are good, but just because the new CA missions wants Troop units on the ground). It's always good to have some units that can cover the board to increase mobility (although our Ravenwing bikes have improved for this too)

Anyone else notice the Dark Talon went up 40 pts to 180?

Konate wrote:
Anyone else notice the Dark Talon went up 40 pts to 180?

It was 160 in the codex. Raised to 200 by a FAQ and went down to 180 by another one, IIRC. Its total price is 20p more (because of hurricane bolters)

First post on Dakka - DA has always been my first army - I've long (and slowly) collected and theory hammered

Are we able to use the Indomitus Crusaders/Veteran intercessors stratagems with a DA army? Do we have the keywords necessary?

Sorry if this has been previously addressed

eascottie wrote:
First post on Dakka - DA has always been my first army - I've long (and slowly) collected and theory hammered

Are we able to use the Indomitus Crusaders/Veteran intercessors stratagems with a DA army? Do we have the keywords necessary?

Sorry if this has been previously addressed

don't think so. Ask your Tournament Organizer or your opponent.

Per the rules of the specialist detachment, there is no reason you couldn't.
The only condition to use it is for your army to be battle forged.
Then you select a detachment and every primaris from this detachment listed in the stratagem gains <indomitus crusaders>, no keyword needed.

The Stratagem that allows that specialist detachment says you ahve to pick a Space Marines detachment. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves or Grey Knights don't have Space Marines Detachments. Thus, they can't use that new one

 Vector Strike wrote:
The Stratagem that allows that specialist detachment says you ahve to pick a Space Marines detachment. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves or Grey Knights don't have Space Marines Detachments. Thus, they can't use that new one

Ah yeah, you're right, I missed that.

I've been tooling with my Ravenwing list a bit since CA and Vigilus and hoping to get some thoughts. I used to run 10 CP (1 Battalion, 1 Airwing, and 1 Outrider) across 12 drops. This basically worked out to:
3 dark talons
Talonmaster, Sammael on Sableclaw
3 squads of scouts, 2 heavy bolters
Librarian on a bike
12 black knights (two squads of 6)
1 Dark shroud

It was a decent list but CP got chewed up pretty fast and the lack of troops really hurt for getting to objectives and gaining points. The librarian is awesome for casting Aversion/Mind Wipe to almost act like another Dark Shroud. I would attempt to get one or both of those off on big targets I know I won't be able to kill that turn, and then focus the rest of my army on taking out something else in the mean time. Plus smite is nice and the ability to deny psychic tests is awesome.

What i've been thinking is something like 2 Battalions and 1 Airwing for 14 CP but around 15 drops. Roughly worked out to:
3 dark talons
2 librarians on jump packs
30 scouts, 2 heavy bolters
Talonmaster, Sammael on Sableclaw
7 black knights (one big-ish blob)
1 Dark shroud

A little more CP and twice as many troops. The downside is that I lose 5 black knights (and a lot of heavy fire power) in the process.

Long story short: I've yet to try this out, but would it be absolute madness to ditch the Dark Shroud in this second list so I can add more Black Knights?

In my head having the two librarians running around casting aversion/mind wipe almost act like a poor man's dark shroud (almost) and I think this list just lacks a bit of heavy punch. Plus having one giant blob of black knights is a bit of a target and once they're gone i'm kind of stuck.

Of course...I could pop in an IG battalion, rework some things and end up keeping a Dark Shroud and most of this list. Just prefer to keep it mono build :/

Hi guys/Gals

I have a tournament coming up next year and was wondering if you guys could help out.

its 1k doubles, I am taking the dankest of all angels and my buddy is taking blood angels.

Each datasheet can only be taken twice per army unless its a troop choice.

So any advice tips etc. would be much appreciated

 Formosa wrote:
Hi guys/Gals

I have a tournament coming up next year and was wondering if you guys could help out.

its 1k doubles, I am taking the dankest of all angels and my buddy is taking blood angels.

Each datasheet can only be taken twice per army unless its a troop choice.

So any advice tips etc. would be much appreciated

It's a good pairing - your Dark Angels can be the anvil while his Blood Angels are the hammer.

At 1K you could have an Azrael-led Battalion with a decent Hellblaster squad and maybe some Aggressors. A Lieutenant and three Scout Scouts would round you out, and you could even squeeze in a Devastator Squad.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Hi guys/Gals

I have a tournament coming up next year and was wondering if you guys could help out.

its 1k doubles, I am taking the dankest of all angels and my buddy is taking blood angels.

Each datasheet can only be taken twice per army unless its a troop choice.

So any advice tips etc. would be much appreciated

It's a good pairing - your Dark Angels can be the anvil while his Blood Angels are the hammer.

At 1K you could have an Azrael-led Battalion with a decent Hellblaster squad and maybe some Aggressors. A Lieutenant and three Scout Scouts would round you out, and you could even squeeze in a Devastator Squad.

Im going to test this out

Ezekiel: mind word, aversion, mind wipe
Primaris LT: Heavenfall blade, master stratigest

Tac squad: lascannon
Tac Squad: lascannon
Tac Squad: lascannon

Mortis Dread: dual heavy plasma cannon
Mortis Dread: dual Heavy plasma cannon
Mortis Contemptor: Dual Heavy plasma cannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher

Darkshroud

What do you guys think. I am going for as much firepower as I can get in there.

 Vector Strike wrote:
The Stratagem that allows that specialist detachment says you ahve to pick a Space Marines detachment. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves or Grey Knights don't have Space Marines Detachments. Thus, they can't use that new one

Detachment faction is determined by the most specific shared faction keyword, and since space marine is not a valid faction keyword (the keyword is adeptus astartes), your logic says no one could use it. I think it's pretty obvious they meant it for it to be used by adeptus astartes detachments, in which case would apply to all of the chapters you mentioned. It could be that the intention was to only include chapters using chapter tactics from the Space marines codex, in which case they would specify detachments with the adeptus astartes keyword using chapter tactics found in the codex space marines. However since nearly every loyalist founding chapter or one of its successors participated in the Indomitus crusade, there is no canonical reason to exclude them.

As it is, it's another editing fail, kind of like the orks super heavy detachment, which requires almost 3000 points to use. I'd expect an errata in the coming days to settle this and other questions raised by poor editing.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
The Stratagem that allows that specialist detachment says you ahve to pick a Space Marines detachment. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves or Grey Knights don't have Space Marines Detachments. Thus, they can't use that new one

Detachment faction is determined by the most specific shared faction keyword, and since space marine is not a valid faction keyword (the keyword is adeptus astartes), your logic says no one could use it. I think it's pretty obvious they meant it for it to be used by adeptus astartes detachments, in which case would apply to all of the chapters you mentioned. It could be that the intention was to only include chapters using chapter tactics from the Space marines codex, in which case they would specify detachments with the adeptus astartes keyword using chapter tactics found in the codex space marines. However since nearly every loyalist founding chapter or one of its successors participated in the Indomitus crusade, there is no canonical reason to exclude them.

As it is, it's another editing fail, kind of like the orks super heavy detachment, which requires almost 3000 points to use. I'd expect an errata in the coming days to settle this and other questions raised by poor editing.

I really hope your interpretation is the same of GW's, because right now I have no reason whatsoever to use Intercessors... but most people I've seen discussing this say that it applies only for SM detachs. I'd like a better clarification from GW to put an end on this matter

To be fair, I don't think we are missing out on much even if they don't let us take it. All three of the bolter stratagems are a minimum 3 CP investment, and the returns vary pretty wildly. I wanted to like the stalker bolt rifle one, but it ends up being only 2.7 wounds against a target with a 4++, and 3.24 against targets without an invul, assuming toughness 4 and a 3+ save. The bolt rifle one seems the best of the bunch, rapid fire 2 is a straight doubling of their damage done, but intercessors aren't exactly a unit we lean on for damage. The assault bolter one is flat inferior to the bolt rifle one since 4 shots hitting 2/3 of the time is better in almost every case than 2 shots that auto hit, especially since the bolt rifle one will have extra range and AP.

 turmoil wrote:
I've been tooling with my Ravenwing list a bit since CA and Vigilus and hoping to get some thoughts. I used to run 10 CP (1 Battalion, 1 Airwing, and 1 Outrider) across 12 drops. This basically worked out to:
3 dark talons
Talonmaster, Sammael on Sableclaw
3 squads of scouts, 2 heavy bolters
Librarian on a bike
12 black knights (two squads of 6)
1 Dark shroud

It was a decent list but CP got chewed up pretty fast and the lack of troops really hurt for getting to objectives and gaining points. The librarian is awesome for casting Aversion/Mind Wipe to almost act like another Dark Shroud. I would attempt to get one or both of those off on big targets I know I won't be able to kill that turn, and then focus the rest of my army on taking out something else in the mean time. Plus smite is nice and the ability to deny psychic tests is awesome.

What i've been thinking is something like 2 Battalions and 1 Airwing for 14 CP but around 15 drops. Roughly worked out to:
3 dark talons
2 librarians on jump packs
30 scouts, 2 heavy bolters
Talonmaster, Sammael on Sableclaw
7 black knights (one big-ish blob)
1 Dark shroud

A little more CP and twice as many troops. The downside is that I lose 5 black knights (and a lot of heavy fire power) in the process.

Long story short: I've yet to try this out, but would it be absolute madness to ditch the Dark Shroud in this second list so I can add more Black Knights?

In my head having the two librarians running around casting aversion/mind wipe almost act like a poor man's dark shroud (almost) and I think this list just lacks a bit of heavy punch. Plus having one giant blob of black knights is a bit of a target and once they're gone i'm kind of stuck.

Of course...I could pop in an IG battalion, rework some things and end up keeping a Dark Shroud and most of this list. Just prefer to keep it mono build :/

Do you usually play ITC or standard? If you don't play ITC then the number of drops is now no longer a parameter. In the new missions the armies are deployed all at once.

Spoletta wrote:
Do you usually play ITC or standard? If you don't play ITC then the number of drops is now no longer a parameter. In the new missions the armies are deployed all at once.

At the moment, mostly standard missions. I haven't played the new ones in CA though, but that does sound pretty nice. I am looking into playing some events/ITC missions soon though.

Vector Strike wrote:I really hope your interpretation is the same of GW's, because right now I have no reason whatsoever to use Intercessors... but most people I've seen discussing this say that it applies only for SM detachs. I'd like a better clarification from GW to put an end on this matter

Well, Dark Angels don't have any Space Marine stratagems - only Dark Angels stratagems. I think it's pretty clear that this is unusable on anything but Codex Marines at this time.

Grimgold wrote:To be fair, I don't think we are missing out on much even if they don't let us take it. All three of the bolter stratagems are a minimum 3 CP investment, and the returns vary pretty wildly. I wanted to like the stalker bolt rifle one, but it ends up being only 2.7 wounds against a target with a 4++, and 3.24 against targets without an invul, assuming toughness 4 and a 3+ save. The bolt rifle one seems the best of the bunch, rapid fire 2 is a straight doubling of their damage done, but intercessors aren't exactly a unit we lean on for damage. The assault bolter one is flat inferior to the bolt rifle one since 4 shots hitting 2/3 of the time is better in almost every case than 2 shots that auto hit, especially since the bolt rifle one will have extra range and AP.

There's situational uses for all 3, and the unlock is done pregame based on the opponent, not in the list building phase, so it's smart not to lean too heavily on them early anyway. It also gives codex marines something other than hellfire, flakk, command rerolls, and situational uses of WotA to spend CP on. As for DA, BA, DW, SW...all the special marines have strats usually worth spending points on.

 turmoil wrote:

What i've been thinking is something like 2 Battalions and 1 Airwing for 14 CP but around 15 drops. Roughly worked out to:
3 dark talons
2 librarians on jump packs
30 scouts, 2 heavy bolters
Talonmaster, Sammael on Sableclaw
7 black knights (one big-ish blob)
1 Dark shroud

A little more CP and twice as many troops. The downside is that I lose 5 black knights (and a lot of heavy fire power) in the process.

Long story short: I've yet to try this out, but would it be absolute madness to ditch the Dark Shroud in this second list so I can add more Black Knights?

In my head having the two librarians running around casting aversion/mind wipe almost act like a poor man's dark shroud (almost) and I think this list just lacks a bit of heavy punch. Plus having one giant blob of black knights is a bit of a target and once they're gone i'm kind of stuck.

I can't speak for the Dark Talons because I have none, but when I look at this list, I see one unit (black knights) which will vaporize on turn 1. I played in a tournament in November with 10 black knights. Even with the protection of Azrael (or jink) and a Dark Shroud, they vanished on turn 1 almost every game. When they didn't vanish completely they were already severely depleted. As a result, when I look at your list, I see no anti tank that will be present from turns 2-7. Again, I can't speak for the dark talons, I know they have the rift cannon but I'm just not familiar enough with its output.
I also don't have much faith in scouts surviving, though I guess with 30 of them, at least some will survive due to being such low priority kills (from a purely threat perspective).

Zustiur wrote:
I played in a tournament in November with 10 black knights. Even with the protection of Azrael (or jink) and a Dark Shroud, they vanished on turn 1 almost every game. When they didn't vanish completely they were already severely depleted.

This is my experience as well. They're now so cheap maybe they're still workable in large numbers? If they survive to turn 2 they can win you the game by themselves, but that's a big IF.

I don't know how to make Black Knights work, but my plasma Inceptors work for me more consistently.

Same experience with me for the Black Knights. I think I'd rather run 2x5 or 2x6 just to have one unit possibly survive. You pretty much have to find something tastier to put in the front window.

So I tested out my list and it seems to lack a bit of oomf, it was fairly ok at supporting my Blood angels mate but eventually he got overwhemed at i simply could not put enough damage on the enemy leman russ tanks.

Any suggestions on changes would be great, its a doubles tournament and I am trying to make a strong supporting force.

 Formosa wrote:
So I tested out my list and it seems to lack a bit of oomf, it was fairly ok at supporting my Blood angels mate but eventually he got overwhemed at i simply could not put enough damage on the enemy leman russ tanks.

Any suggestions on changes would be great, its a doubles tournament and I am trying to make a strong supporting force.

I whipped up something on the quick which is close to what I generally run as the mobile-ish shooting platform of my list. You seem to want to run a battalion, so here you go:

999 pts
Azrael
Lt (regular)

9x Intercessors
5x Bolter scouts
5x Bolter scouts

3x Aggressor w/boltstorm
Apothecary
Company Ancient

8x Hellblasters (plas Incinerator)

You can pull the Aggressors in favor of some other upgrades like sniper rifles and some power fists for the LT and Int Sgt, and some more Hellblasters, but I like having them for counter assault threat. Hellblasters plus strat are going to do work, and if they focus fire on them, you have an Apothecary and Standard to keep them coming back and shooting more, plus Azrael's force field.

Thank you frightnight.

A battalion is not completely needed but it seemed the most logical to start with, I have never used aggressors or intercessors so why do you suggest them, what makes them suitible for dark angels in particular?

again appreciated for the help