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Sunny Side Up wrote:

Though Archons went down 15,

Sigh.

And this is why I hate GW trying to fix everything with point changes.


Archons aren't garbage because of their cost. Archons are garbage because they have:
- Abysmal melee.
- Abysmal shooting outside of a single option that's index-only (and even then it doesn't even come close to making Archons tolerable).
- Crap defence.
- Zero mobility options.
- An aura that can only affect a tiny fraction of their army.
- An aura that - in a subfaction built around open-topped transports - doesn't work inside, into, or out of open-topped transports (and do remember that open-topped transports are literally the only mobility option available not just to the Archon but to the entirety of the Kabal subfaction).
- An aura that doesn't work on the unit that is purpose-built to accompany the Archon.
etc.

Put simply, a 15pt drop does nothing to make the Archon any more appealing because he's still a complete waste of space.


By the same measure, a 15pt increase isn't going to make Ravagers any less appealing because for all intents and purposes Dark Eldar have no other options for that role. Hell, Kabal don't even have any other options in the entire HQ slot because some GW employee with a pickaxe lodged in his skull decided that an already-anaemic army needed to be split into 3 subfactions with 0 synergy between them.

/rant

 Sersi wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Noise Marines 13pts, blaster master 12 pts, doom siren 8, sonic blaster 4pts.

Not that I'm surprised, but GW is still way over valuing ignore cover. A storm-bolter or combi-bolter are only 2 pts, and with bolter discipline better options. While an Auto Bolt Rifle with the same profile as a Sonic Blaster costs only 1 pt.

Sonic Blaster I felt should have been 2 points, perhaps they kept it at 4pts due to the stratagem.

But if you compare sonic blaster armed noise marines to auto bolt rifle armed primeris, the noise marines cost more but have 1 less wound in exchange for music of the apocalypse, i'm not sure it is worth it. But the squads i was using got a 36pts discount so I can't really complain about that now it makes them substantially better than they where before.

 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Noise Marines 13pts, blaster master 12pts, doom siren 8, sonic blaster 4pts.

Now they just need to get off their asses and release a new Noise Marine kit

Definitely the upgrade sprue doesn't even fit on the current generation of models, let alone how out of date those upgrade kits even are


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh wow not only did Slaanesh get back Chariot heralds, it also gained herald on Hellflayer that is awesome.

the_scotsman wrote:
My ravager has dark lances, so no harm done here. Given that you can take disintegrators on less OP platforms, Im glad they chose that way to nerf dissie ravagers.

Ding ding! We have a winner! For as odd as some of the points changes seem, loads of them seem to have this kind of logic in mind and I approve.

-

Should a plague marine be 5 more points than a CSM for T5 ,-1 movement, and DR? Nope, now you will never see them on the table.

 Galef wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
My ravager has dark lances, so no harm done here. Given that you can take disintegrators on less OP platforms, Im glad they chose that way to nerf dissie ravagers.

Ding ding! We have a winner! For as odd as some of the points changes seem, loads of them seem to have this kind of logic in mind and I approve.

-

I think you mean loser. As good as the tripple Dissie Ravager was for 125pts, it needs to be remembered that it's only S5 and in an army with almost zero force multipliers in an edition where force multipliers are the name of the game, being cheap is a must. It, has to be remembered that people weren't taking Dissintegrators because they were cheaper, they were taking them because they were flat out better against anything in the game that didn't have a very specific stat line (T6 or 7 with mutliple wounds and a 3+sv with no invuln is the only type of unit the Dark Lance is better against), making them the same cost wont get people to switch to Dark Lances, as much as I'd love to but I'm long since done with the dissapointment. On top of that, as Vipoid said, we have no other options to take in it's place either, sure the Razorwing is good, but it's also more expensive and has less firepower, it does not fill the heavy fire support role anywhere near as well whilst Scourge are a suicide unit.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 Galas wrote:
In the point changes regard, TBH, barring the poor Genestealer Aberrants and... ogryns? This has been a pretty good Chapter Approved.

I mean. I'm not a great fan of making everything cheaper. I prefer for everything to become more expensive and make the very powerfull things even more expensive. But as is know for every developer, be it boardgames, roleplaying games, or videogames, people loves "Buffs" and hates nerfs. And lowering point costs makes people buy more models and be able to play with more of their toys so is a win win for everybody. I assume.

Ravagers went up 15pts each, as the only long range fire support available in the Drukhari codex, that bloody hurts.

Though Archons went down 15, Dark Lances went down 5 and lots of other stuff went down as well. Drazar down another 20.

It hurts the souped 3-Diss-Ravagers-plus-one-Archon, but if you run mainly Drukhari, I think it comes out a wash, mostly. You'll probably make those 45 points for 3 Dissy-Ravagers on the new savings on your HQs alone.

It's not ideal, especially with "down" being a general trend, but it's no Aberrant-style annihilation of the army, I think.

I am honestly trying to figure out why Venoms went down even more and Raiders are the same...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I am honestly trying to figure out why Venoms went down even more and Raiders are the same...

Venoms didn't go down. The initial leaks only claimed that they did because somebody apparently forgot that they come equipped with a 10 point Splinter Cannon by default.

 vipoid wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Though Archons went down 15,

Sigh.

And this is why I hate GW trying to fix everything with point changes.


Archons aren't garbage because of their cost. Archons are garbage because they have:
- Abysmal melee.
- Abysmal shooting outside of a single option that's index-only (and even then it doesn't even come close to making Archons tolerable).
- Crap defence.
- Zero mobility options.
- An aura that can only affect a tiny fraction of their army.
- An aura that - in a subfaction built around open-topped transports - doesn't work inside, into, or out of open-topped transports (and do remember that open-topped transports are literally the only mobility option available not just to the Archon but to the entirety of the Kabal subfaction).
- An aura that doesn't work on the unit that is purpose-built to accompany the Archon.
etc.

Put simply, a 15pt drop does nothing to make the Archon any more appealing because he's still a complete waste of space.


By the same measure, a 15pt increase isn't going to make Ravagers any less appealing because for all intents and purposes Dark Eldar have no other options for that role. Hell, Kabal don't even have any other options in the entire HQ slot because some GW employee with a pickaxe lodged in his skull decided that an already-anaemic army needed to be split into 3 subfactions with 0 synergy between them.

/rant

At least it's 15 less of a tax!

That said you're correct that they need a whole redesign, and I agree 99% with you. I don't think their melee is terrible but since you gotta use Relics and Warlord traits yeah I'm not a fan.

Twilight Pathways wrote:
Custodes:

Allarus -5
SC -10
Allarus SC -10
LR -12
Traj -5
Axe -3
Spear -3
Misericordia -1
Stormshield -5
Vexilla Imperius -30

Not sure about FW except for:
Caladius -10


Drukhari:

In the d6 evolution video they state that Talos have NOT gone up?!


Harlequins:

Neuro disruptors not dropped TO 5, they dropped BY 5. Finally!

Is`t Neuro disruptors 10 pts now, so what is the difference between dropping by 5 and they are 5 ?

I thought they were 8. I don't remember to be honest because who remembers them?

Warhound Titan is still completely unusable at 2000pts :/

 Rydria wrote:
Warhound Titan is still completely unusable at 2000pts :/

Makes sense. Some things are simply too large for the 40k system.

Marin wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
Custodes:

Allarus -5
SC -10
Allarus SC -10
LR -12
Traj -5
Axe -3
Spear -3
Misericordia -1
Stormshield -5
Vexilla Imperius -30

Not sure about FW except for:
Caladius -10


Drukhari:

In the d6 evolution video they state that Talos have NOT gone up?!


Harlequins:

Neuro disruptors not dropped TO 5, they dropped BY 5. Finally!

Is`t Neuro disruptors 10 pts now, so what is the difference between dropping by 5 and they are 5 ?

Yeah they were 10. It was my favorite thing in the game. For 1 point more than fusion you could get -4str, -1ap, -d3 damage and no melta rule.

the_scotsman wrote:

Marin wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
Custodes:

Allarus -5
SC -10
Allarus SC -10
LR -12
Traj -5
Axe -3
Spear -3
Misericordia -1
Stormshield -5
Vexilla Imperius -30

Not sure about FW except for:
Caladius -10


Drukhari:

In the d6 evolution video they state that Talos have NOT gone up?!


Harlequins:

Neuro disruptors not dropped TO 5, they dropped BY 5. Finally!

Is`t Neuro disruptors 10 pts now, so what is the difference between dropping by 5 and they are 5 ?

Yeah they were 10. It was my favorite thing in the game. For 1 point more than fusion you could get -4str, -1ap, -d3 damage and no melta rule.

GW probably thought the 12" range made them super good compared to the Fusion Pistols even though Harlequins can somehow deliver said Fusion Pistols.

sieGermans wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Warhound Titan is still completely unusable at 2000pts :/

Makes sense. Some things are simply too large for the 40k system.

Thy increased points on titans to make them non-feasible for normal 40K games, but didn't adjust their rules to make them actually worth those changed points, much less their original costs. Compared to a Castellan Knight, It has +7 wounds, +2 S, +1 T, +1 Inv save base (but degrades), a much better plasma cannon, and slightly better turbolaser. Macro weapon is an odd patch which makes it far superior vs Titanic targets than normal ones. But the Warhound can only target 2 units, while the Castellan has 5 more weapon systems. And for the same points costs, you can take a second castellan, and a crusader, with some points to spare.

2000 points games are already ridiculous enough with the addition of Knights and LoW that were once restricted to Apocalypse-size games.

I don't want to see those things (Titans) anywhere near my tables, whetever their rules are.

Selfcontrol wrote:
2000 points games are already ridiculous enough with the addition of Knights and LoW that were once restricted to Apocalypse-size games.

I don't want to see those things (Titans) anywhere near my tables, whetever their rules are.

Yeah because Titans are sooooooooo broken.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:
2000 points games are already ridiculous enough with the addition of Knights and LoW that were once restricted to Apocalypse-size games.

I don't want to see those things (Titans) anywhere near my tables, whetever their rules are.

Yeah because Titans are sooooooooo broken.

You literally quoted the part where he explicitly said it's a preferences whatever their rules are, broken, not broken

.... whatever their rules are.

.... but they are not broken.

.... whatever their rules are.

.... but they are not broken.


The counter-argument just doesn't fit. Lol .

 Rydria wrote:
Warhound Titan is still completely unusable at 2000pts :/

Did anyone ever expect it to be?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:
2000 points games are already ridiculous enough with the addition of Knights and LoW that were once restricted to Apocalypse-size games.

I don't want to see those things (Titans) anywhere near my tables, whetever their rules are.

Yeah because Titans are sooooooooo broken.

You literally quoted the part where he explicitly said it's a preferences whatever their rules are, broken, not broken

.... whatever their rules are.

.... but they are not broken.

.... whatever their rules are.

.... but they are not broken.


The counter-argument just doesn't fit. Lol .

I didn't miss it. With the rules being fine, there's nothing rational about it. It really just boils down to "I haven't moved on from the game in 3rd edition".

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

sieGermans wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Warhound Titan is still completely unusable at 2000pts :/

Makes sense. Some things are simply too large for the 40k system.

Thy increased points on titans to make them non-feasible for normal 40K games, but didn't adjust their rules to make them actually worth those changed points, much less their original costs. Compared to a Castellan Knight, It has +7 wounds, +2 S, +1 T, +1 Inv save base (but degrades), a much better plasma cannon, and slightly better turbolaser. Macro weapon is an odd patch which makes it far superior vs Titanic targets than normal ones. But the Warhound can only target 2 units, while the Castellan has 5 more weapon systems. And for the same points costs, you can take a second castellan, and a crusader, with some points to spare.

This is my problem, if it could feasibly be useful at 2000pts in a apoc game I wouldn't mind but it is like 50%-70% better than a Castellan for over twice the cost.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Did anyone ever expect it to be?

No one expected the Baneblade and its variantes to be in regular 40k after it was added to first version of Apocalypse

It is more of a surprise that the Warhound is not already part of regular 40k, but I guess this will have to wait until GW is doing a plastic kit

the_scotsman wrote:

Marin wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
Custodes:

Allarus -5
SC -10
Allarus SC -10
LR -12
Traj -5
Axe -3
Spear -3
Misericordia -1
Stormshield -5
Vexilla Imperius -30

Not sure about FW except for:
Caladius -10


Drukhari:

In the d6 evolution video they state that Talos have NOT gone up?!


Harlequins:

Neuro disruptors not dropped TO 5, they dropped BY 5. Finally!

Is`t Neuro disruptors 10 pts now, so what is the difference between dropping by 5 and they are 5 ?

Yeah they were 10. It was my favorite thing in the game. For 1 point more than fusion you could get -4str, -1ap, -d3 damage and no melta rule.

Yeah they are still crap, I did the match for them again recently. They should be about 2-3 points for one. I think they really need a rules rewrite, even just bumping up the range to 16" would do wonders for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing they missed the ball on for the harlequins points update is the kiss melee weapon. You know the one that they give you enough to kit the whole squad out with in the box but is still never used. It's the same price as a caress but almost equal to it in terms of damage done to multiwound MEQ. And then it is much worse against single wound infantry then both the caress and embrace.

They should have dropped it to like 4 points honestly, would have opened a lot of options for our lists, but I'm kinda glad I don't have to go and magnetize and paint up a bunch of new weapons. Other than these I think they did an amazing job with the harlequins points update.

Silly question but does chapter approved change any terrain rules? One of the books at least reviews those... and god forbid they make terrain great again that may darn well have a greater impact on the meta than these points changes...

Some people have made the contention that the ITC-style magic boxes are ruled out by the new terrain rules. It remains to be seen whether the ITC team agrees or not.

bmsattler wrote:
Some people have made the contention that the ITC-style magic boxes are ruled out by the new terrain rules. It remains to be seen whether the ITC team agrees or not.

99% sure they would rule to allow it since Magic boxes exist because FLG sells whole buildings, and not just ruins.

Has there been any reviews about the contents of the actual Chapter Approved book? Everyone only seems to be foaming about the points.

 Crimson wrote:
Has there been any reviews about the contents of the actual Chapter Approved book? Everyone only seems to be foaming about the points.

Haven’t you heard, nothing outside of 2K WAAC ITC matters????

Joking and salt apart, I’m looking forward to the missions and what they come up with for Tank Battles etc. We often play different game modes so new ideas are always welcome.

Okay, I find this review which goes through the book swiftly and concisely. (Why more Youtube reviews aren't like this? This guy did an excellent summary of the book in ten minutes.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8E-oNoe44k

Anyway, the new missions look good. Challenge missions look fun, and the matched missions seem promising too. Maelstrom missions in particular seem now more tactical and less random. I was previously opposed to using Maelstrom in tournaments as luck plays way too big role, but with this new setup it is no longer a problem.

 Rydria wrote:
Warhound Titan is still completely unusable at 2000pts :/

Fellblade says hi.