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Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Dendarien wrote:
Grots at the same cost of a guardsmen or termagant is hilariously bad.

Previous posts already covered it, but I echo the sentiment of just how bad the system of printed errata is. CA19 will hammer factions and units that performed well months ago and now may struggle or even be completely rolled over by the new power level of the marine books.

I wonder if they will be compelled into an emergency errata to CA19 like with the iron hands book.


you know what ca is? A bad balance patch witha paywall from a team that only looks at it about 2-4 days at most and is mostly concerned when the next bunch of marine rules need to get out.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




There is absolutely no way a grot is worth 4 points. If GW wants to stop grot farms/180 grot lists, then they need to make other options more viable.
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Cary, NC

Rather than altering points in CA each year, why not reserve it for actual rules, and just make a pdf available on the resource page with NOTHING but units/gear and points values. Precisely useless without a book of some sort, so it preserves sales, but also easy to reference (or print out and carry around) to keep up to date. Plus, it would let you update EVERYTHING easily, and whenever it needed it, not just once a year.

 
   
Made in ca
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





British Columbia

Domandi wrote:
There is absolutely no way a grot is worth 4 points. If GW wants to stop grot farms/180 grot lists, then they need to make other options more viable.

That's not how they operate. Note the repeated bludgeoning the Cultists have taken that "improved" Chaos Marines.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Regarding grots - it seems like a bad idea, but then there is the conundrum of using survivoship bias in point changes. Either you increase grots, because you see them a lot or you drop everything else, because they don't get used enough.

Unit X hasn't been seen for a year - drop it's points. But unit X was already good - people didn't choose it, because of the perceived meta. And then they drop it again later, because we're still not seeing it, but the end result is the unit becomes so cheap that it becomes meta-defining itself and then you start another wave of issues.

Sometimes it is better to increase the cost of over-performing units than to reduce the cost of under-performers. That way you get to unveil the units hiding at the line between used and unused. This only gets more complex with things like grots, because they're serving a defined purpose that other units do not accomplish.

And the marine meta doesn't help...


You know your white knighting has reached epic proportions when you're trying to convince people that a T2, S2, W1, 6+ save model is worth 4ppm and the same as an Infantryman.

Grots are taken for one reason - Grot Shields. Apart from that they are the cheapest unit wound for wound.

GW have lost their minds and Orks will cease to exist in a competitive setting if this is true.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Regarding grots - it seems like a bad idea, but then there is the conundrum of using survivoship bias in point changes. Either you increase grots, because you see them a lot or you drop everything else, because they don't get used enough.

Unit X hasn't been seen for a year - drop it's points. But unit X was already good - people didn't choose it, because of the perceived meta. And then they drop it again later, because we're still not seeing it, but the end result is the unit becomes so cheap that it becomes meta-defining itself and then you start another wave of issues.

Sometimes it is better to increase the cost of over-performing units than to reduce the cost of under-performers. That way you get to unveil the units hiding at the line between used and unused. This only gets more complex with things like grots, because they're serving a defined purpose that other units do not accomplish.

And the marine meta doesn't help...


You know your white knighting has reached epic proportions when you're trying to convince people that a T2, S2, W1, 6+ save model is worth 4ppm and the same as an Infantryman.

Grots are taken for one reason - Grot Shields. Apart from that they are the cheapest unit wound for wound.

GW have lost their minds and Orks will cease to exist in a competitive setting if this is true.


I'm 100% on board with not making grots 4ppm. That is very stupid doubly so if orks are not buffed in other areas. However I don't think it would kill orks competitively. I think you are over reacting, but let me be clear I really, really don't want them nerfed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 20:32:48


 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




San Jose, CA

Not Online!!! wrote:
Spoiler:
 xttz wrote:
Rinion wrote:
Curious and nervous about the FW points changes!

Most of it is garbage with the exception of a few things and some of the new Marine stuff making the Leviathan super strong. But if they increase it any more its just going to be a 14W knight for the same points.

Lets hope they dont mess up, theyve not had a good track record with FW points the last few years!


Back in August they said there was a 'big announcement' coming regarding FW. I was really hoping that would mean revamped rules for all the FW index units, possilbly made available for free online alongside the upcoming 'Legends' rules.

With Chapter Approved pre-order and a WHW studio preview on the same weekend I have my fingers crossed for the end of the month...


If FW ends in legends, which will be coming, then that meanst that these units there will be marked as a suggestion like RO3, meaning that you might not be able to field them anymore.


Oh no....the mark of suggestion. The most powerful and incorporial of the Chaos marks. Who gives a flying feth if that happens? I know that some think that a suggestion (like the suggestion of 3)is a set in stone type thing, but you can always choose not to follow it.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Racerguy180 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Spoiler:
 xttz wrote:
Rinion wrote:
Curious and nervous about the FW points changes!

Most of it is garbage with the exception of a few things and some of the new Marine stuff making the Leviathan super strong. But if they increase it any more its just going to be a 14W knight for the same points.

Lets hope they dont mess up, theyve not had a good track record with FW points the last few years!


Back in August they said there was a 'big announcement' coming regarding FW. I was really hoping that would mean revamped rules for all the FW index units, possilbly made available for free online alongside the upcoming 'Legends' rules.

With Chapter Approved pre-order and a WHW studio preview on the same weekend I have my fingers crossed for the end of the month...


If FW ends in legends, which will be coming, then that meanst that these units there will be marked as a suggestion like RO3, meaning that you might not be able to field them anymore.


Oh no....the mark of suggestion. The most powerful and incorporial of the Chaos marks. Who gives a flying feth if that happens? I know that some think that a suggestion (like the suggestion of 3)is a set in stone type thing, but you can always choose not to follow it.


You need the group for that.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Cheap troop infantry is poison for the game. They make CPs too easy to acquire, they make skew lists better, and encourage slow play.

The fact that these armies don't have a better option than to fill out detachments with grots, cultists, etc sucks and should definitely be addressed, it doesn't change the fact that allowing horde lists to also function as cheap CP farms is bad.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Or they can just remove CP farming altogether and make it a set amount.
There are too many stratagems, imo. The game could use a lot of trimming and moving strats back to being unit-abilities and datasheets.
CP generation, imo, should be rare and more conditional rather than something you build into. Like, one army could generate CP whenever they kill an enemy unit, another can get a point of CP whenever they successfully cast psychic powers. Hell, why not base command points on objectives, so for every turn you hold an objective, you generate CP?

The current system just doesn't work that well, as it affects army lists way too much and forces players to take a certain combination and quantity of units, and some armies at worse at farming CP than others. Its just a clunky, restrictive system that isn't really fun to deal with.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/11/11 20:47:50


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




San Jose, CA

Not Online!!! wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Spoiler:
 xttz wrote:
Rinion wrote:
Curious and nervous about the FW points changes!

Most of it is garbage with the exception of a few things and some of the new Marine stuff making the Leviathan super strong. But if they increase it any more its just going to be a 14W knight for the same points.

Lets hope they dont mess up, theyve not had a good track record with FW points the last few years!


Back in August they said there was a 'big announcement' coming regarding FW. I was really hoping that would mean revamped rules for all the FW index units, possilbly made available for free online alongside the upcoming 'Legends' rules.

With Chapter Approved pre-order and a WHW studio preview on the same weekend I have my fingers crossed for the end of the month...


If FW ends in legends, which will be coming, then that meanst that these units there will be marked as a suggestion like RO3, meaning that you might not be able to field them anymore.


Oh no....the mark of suggestion. The most powerful and incorporial of the Chaos marks. Who gives a flying feth if that happens? I know that some think that a suggestion (like the suggestion of 3)is a set in stone type thing, but you can always choose not to follow it.


You need the group for that.

no, you just need people who understand the difference between a suggestion and a rule.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator





Sign of a good compromise is when nobody's happy. It's interesting to me the amount of salt surround CA given that just a few years ago you basically had your codex and those were your points come hell or high water for at the very least 2 years.

Not saying the current format is perfect, but multiple mass FAQ's and points updates every year seem to me like a nice enough boon to be passable.

Then again I'm garage-hammer through and through so their changes aren't affecting my ability to win a local heat or whatever it is competitive players do.

The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh 
   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept




UK

Before anyone totally loses their gak over this, these rumours seemingly have no source. I’d be amazed if GW make grots 4 ppm unless they’re making changes to infantry across the board, which in turn seems unlikely.

Imperial Soup
2200pts/1750 painted
2800pts/1200 painted
2200pts/650 painted
217pts/151 painted 
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User




phillv85 wrote:
Before anyone totally loses their gak over this, these rumours seemingly have no source. I’d be amazed if GW make grots 4 ppm unless they’re making changes to infantry across the board, which in turn seems unlikely.


We are talking about Dakkadakka. The average member wants to yell for the hell of it. There is no credible source at all for 99% of these rumours but people still want to argue. This is what the "internet culture & behaviour" look like nowadays (= a trashbin)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/11 21:41:57


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





When is this supposed to come out? 30th of this month?

 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Chapter Approved releases on December 14th. The new supplement releases November 30th.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Selfcontrol wrote:
phillv85 wrote:
Before anyone totally loses their gak over this, these rumours seemingly have no source. I’d be amazed if GW make grots 4 ppm unless they’re making changes to infantry across the board, which in turn seems unlikely.


We are talking about Dakkadakka. The average member wants to yell for the hell of it. There is no credible source at all for 99% of these rumours but people still want to argue. This is what the "internet culture & behaviour" look like nowadays (= a trashbin)



You left out people complaining about other people's discussions, dismissing it as mere 'yelling...'

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






So rather than changing the way CP, battalions or brigades work, or the insanely overpowered strategem stacking combos that have promulgated like weeds the last two years and continue to get worse let's nerf grots. Makes total sense and will clearly fix the balance.

Toughness 2. 6+ armor save. 12" range pistol 1.

That people are literally only getting them to fill mandatory battalion slots should tell you everything about the state of the game.


Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator





Voss wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
phillv85 wrote:
Before anyone totally loses their gak over this, these rumours seemingly have no source. I’d be amazed if GW make grots 4 ppm unless they’re making changes to infantry across the board, which in turn seems unlikely.


We are talking about Dakkadakka. The average member wants to yell for the hell of it. There is no credible source at all for 99% of these rumours but people still want to argue. This is what the "internet culture & behaviour" look like nowadays (= a trashbin)



You left out people complaining about other people's discussions, dismissing it as mere 'yelling...'


To be fair someone complaining about the rumor literally stated that anyone that disagreed with them was a clown.

If pre-preemptively asserting anyone that disagrees is a moron isn't picture perfect internet toxicity I don't know what is.

The 1st Legion
Interrogator-Chaplain Beremiah's Strike Force
The Tearers of Flesh 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 TedNugent wrote:
So rather than changing the way CP, battalions or brigades work, or the insanely overpowered strategem stacking combos that have promulgated like weeds the last two years and continue to get worse let's nerf grots. Makes total sense and will clearly fix the balance.

Toughness 2. 6+ armor save. 12" range pistol 1.

That people are literally only getting them to fill mandatory battalion slots should tell you everything about the state of the game.



I think you are underestimating the value of 3 ppm infantry that has a (short) ranged attack, can used to push out deep strikes, screen against assaults, and benefits from strong Ork morale negation and can benefits from big mek shield. Plus of course the insanely strong grot screen strat. I could see grots going up to 4 ppm. I agree that termagaunts or some other models may seem better pound for pound but orks overall are doing extremely well compared to some of those other factions.

Of course, guardsmen are also grossly undercosted at 4 ppm regardless what happens to grots.

   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune




 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Rumours re CA19 as follows;

Spoiler:
Drop in point for mortarion and magnus

Back to 4 pts cultists

The grot goes to 4 pts

The marine smc elites of each god pass to 2pv (*)

The discordant lord increases in point

The plaguebearers go to 8 pts.

Some ik imperial coast will see their costs in points change

A lot of tau weapons will drop in points. (*)

A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.

Rumors about the increase of the talos of 18pts. (*)

The drone shield goes to 12pts. (*)

So far. All is not confirmed yet ... some are still just rumors. (*)


If this is true I think I stand for all Orks everywhere when I say; what the actual feth are GW thinking making Grots 4ppm?! If this turns out to be true I'm done. This edition is over for me.

Good
Mortarion and magnus points down, Yeah they are way too expensive, however Magnus is better than Morty, Morty is way too overpriced
Grots, Blame the peeps who where running 80 grots
2 Wound God Marines woot that's great, if it does not include any points increases.
Disco Spam - won't effect me never used as my narrative meta is No Vehicles.
Tau need BS rated weapons, e.g. current prices for Commanders, an decrease suit weapons costs for everything else.

Bad
Plaguebearers aren't even good any more (space marine meta), The new style is horrors that split as -1/-2 doesn't matter in re-roll everything or auto hit meta New SM Bring, an 4+/3+ INV is good vs everything. This nerf is way out of date.
Talos wut far as I know no one takes this unit...
Shield Drone nerf is bad, yeah the army is strong, however not unbeatable seems an out of date change.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/11/11 23:27:30


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




What's wrong with 80 grots outside "I don't like it"?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What's wrong with 80 grots outside "I don't like it"?


gonna guess CP farming?

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Painting Within the Lines




Sheep Loveland

ThatMG wrote:

Good
Mortarion and magnus points down, Yeah they are way too expensive, however Magnus is better than Morty, Morty is way too overpriced
Grots, Blame the peeps who where running 80 grots
2 Wound God Marines woot that's great, if it does not include any points increases.
Disco Spam - won't effect me never used as my narrative meta is No Vehicles.
Tau need BS rated weapons, e.g. current prices for Commanders, an decrease suit weapons costs for everything else.

Bad
Plaguebearers aren't even good any more (space marine meta), The new style is horrors that split as -1/-2 doesn't matter in re-roll everything or auto hit meta New SM Bring, an 4+/3+ INV is good vs everything. This nerf is way out of date.
Talos wut far as I know no one takes this unit...
Shield Drone nerf is bad, yeah the army is strong, however not unbeatable seems an out of date change.


Plaguebarer spam is still an issue. Not everyone uses marines so the argument is rediculous. It's just a very, very annoying suoerbuff stack that can just daisy chain between objectives and take stupid amounts of shots to kill.
Talos nerf is a head scratcher. Can anyone with Drukhari experience fill us in if this is justified or not?
Shield drone nerf is a long time coming. It's a super annoying to any army.

I've noticed you think both the nerfs you listed as being "out of date" with the meta. News flash - they aren't. T'au still spam shield drones and plaguebarer spam is still bring used. Or are you just booty blasted that the big bad marines haven't had nerfs reveled yet or still salty over the IH?

Minatours 2,000pts 70% painted 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Regarding grots - it seems like a bad idea, but then there is the conundrum of using survivoship bias in point changes. Either you increase grots, because you see them a lot or you drop everything else, because they don't get used enough.

Unit X hasn't been seen for a year - drop it's points. But unit X was already good - people didn't choose it, because of the perceived meta. And then they drop it again later, because we're still not seeing it, but the end result is the unit becomes so cheap that it becomes meta-defining itself and then you start another wave of issues.

Sometimes it is better to increase the cost of over-performing units than to reduce the cost of under-performers. That way you get to unveil the units hiding at the line between used and unused. This only gets more complex with things like grots, because they're serving a defined purpose that other units do not accomplish.

And the marine meta doesn't help...


You know your white knighting has reached epic proportions when you're trying to convince people that a T2, S2, W1, 6+ save model is worth 4ppm and the same as an Infantryman.

Grots are taken for one reason - Grot Shields. Apart from that they are the cheapest unit wound for wound.

GW have lost their minds and Orks will cease to exist in a competitive setting if this is true.


You know your inability to comprehend a complex idea without resorting to calling it white knighting is getting old.

Nowhere did I say it was a good idea. I expressed why it is complex. Take a pill or something. Or maybe pause and read more slowly. Jesus you people are fething exhausting.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/12 01:32:50


   
Made in gb
Commanding Lordling





 Dr. Mills wrote:
Talos nerf is a head scratcher. Can anyone with Drukhari experience fill us in if this is justified or not?


Sort of. They're very strong but you don't necessarily see them in that many competitive lists because they bleed ITC points really badly at the moment.

18 points feels like overkill to me but an increase is probably justified.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 01:59:43


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Burnage wrote:
 Dr. Mills wrote:
Talos nerf is a head scratcher. Can anyone with Drukhari experience fill us in if this is justified or not?


Sort of. They're very strong but you don't necessarily see them in that many competitive lists because they bleed ITC points really badly at the moment.

18 points feels like overkill to me but an increase is probably justified.


Win-win! You take less of them and give up fewer points!

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I love the throw people under the bus mentality. Mono dex guard armies haven't been crushing all before them for quite a long time. The cost of a guardsman is fine, the core game mechanics are broken with allies and command points, that's pretty clear to see.

Pricing up grots is about as dumb as up pricing cultists which I didn't agree with either. A guard is not worth 6 pts for damn sure. Once you start rocking them up that high why not just use strom troopers ? People need to take a breath and calm down. I mean I feel as bad as anyone marines ever need to fear a guardsman on the battle field but mono guard infantry costs are fine. Aside from conscripts they need to be brought back to usable state as opposed to triple nerfed into nothing.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What's wrong with 80 grots outside "I don't like it"?


Some of GW's adjustments seem to be based on 'this behavior is a deviation from what these armies are 'supposed' to look like.

We saw the same kind of adjustments when cultists got bumped, but I guess they figure with bonus attacks for marines and other adjustments, cultists won't be taken to excess anymore.

So, since there are stories about ork armies that are majority grots with specialty units, they have to be 'fixed.' At least that's where this line of thought seems to be going.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/12 03:10:22


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




BrianDavion wrote:
A lot of entry Fw will see their costs in points completely reviewed.


this eaither means "we realize Bill was drunk when he did the FW points costs, we'll be reviewing these so FW tanks are actually pointed sanely" or they mean "So we're going to add a few hundred points onto the leviathan dread"

I hope it means "holy feth we actually thought a fellblade was worth two baneblades? What were we smoking?".
   
 
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