Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BA is one of the most popular if not THE most popular space marine chapter out there and it has been in a pretty poor state this edition if you dont count 1-3 captains in a soup list as doing well.

Have you seen what kind of models they try to push in the BA boxes? A terminator captain and a Baal predator! Both useless and expensive models that make everyone who asks online the question "I want to start BA so is the larger boxes worth it?" get a big fat "No" everytime.

The baal predator is a contender for the worst marine datasheet of them all. It costs more than a normal predator, have shorter range weapons and to make up for it itcan advance super fast but then not fire any weapon since Assault cannons and heavy flamers are not assault weapons this edition. It even has a stratagem so it can go and die faster. It didnt work with the killshot stratagem either even though it wouldnt have made predators too good if it did.

If GW really wanted to sell models due to rules then they would have given the Baal predator a price drop and either an updated datasheet so it count heavy weapons as assault or allowed the stratagem that improves its advance to shoot as well.

But they forgot about it because they arent as competent as some people give them credit for. Or they have a really sinister plan to not sell BA battleforces or Christmas box sets because they ran out of Baal predator kits but like the look of them in a box on the shelf. If they sold really well then they would be in trouble!!!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:


This. I'd be interested to see it, but have zero reason to search your entire post history to support your argument for you.

I can live with that.

Some people just won't be convinced. Some I could show a picture of a blue sky and they'd still say it was red. I could point to the blue sky and they'd claim it was red.

The fact is we have a statement from an ex employee going into detail of how GW management intervene in balance decisions to ensure the sale of product. Then we have multiple, obvious examples of this in practice, recently and STILL people doubt it. There is no convincing these people. I'd rather not waste my time, again.

Not a detailed breakdown by any stretch but based on release power levels, off top of my head:



So out of over, what, 90 new kits released in 8th edition, 12 have caused big concerns out the gates from my shoddy memory and opinions but others may add to it/correct me as I'm no competitive player.

On topic - the new mission formats seem far better, hopefully people will be more willing to give them a try.

Dudeface wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:


This. I'd be interested to see it, but have zero reason to search your entire post history to support your argument for you.

I can live with that.

Some people just won't be convinced. Some I could show a picture of a blue sky and they'd still say it was red. I could point to the blue sky and they'd claim it was red.

The fact is we have a statement from an ex employee going into detail of how GW management intervene in balance decisions to ensure the sale of product. Then we have multiple, obvious examples of this in practice, recently and STILL people doubt it. There is no convincing these people. I'd rather not waste my time, again.

Not a detailed breakdown by any stretch but based on release power levels, off top of my head:

Spoiler:

Dark imperium/space marines:
Entire primaris range of over 13 various models/units 0 broken or op
Death guard:
Completely new range 14 new units (I think?), only 2 considered op - mortarion and plague burst crawlers
Necron cryptek: nope
Eldar spirit seer: nope
Orks:
Was it 5 or 6 buggies? None op
Custodes:
3 new kits, 1 op
Gsc:
8 new kits I think? Not sure on this one the kelermorph was considered op, possibly anointed throng abberants so call it 2 units
Imp knights:
5 new kits 2 considered op in the castellan and helverins
Chaos knights:
1 new kit not op
Apoc release:
Marine executioner, not op at release
Ad mech tank considered highly efficient as a tank so that'll count
Nurgle daemons wave:
4 new kits, none op
Slaanesh daemons wave:
5 new kits, only the epitome caused waves
Khorne daemons:
2 kits, 0 op
Chaos marines:
9 new kits, only the disco lord considered op
Marine codex 2019 + supplements:
13 kits (? Not sure?), ferrios and invictors considered op
Blood of the pheonix:
4 kits none op

So out of over, what, 90 new kits released in 8th edition, 12 have caused big concerns out the gates from my shoddy memory and opinions but others may add to it/correct me as I'm no competitive player.

On topic - the new mission formats seem far better, hopefully people will be more willing to give them a try.

So you’ve included kits that aren’t new units but are resculpts? Despite me stating that I wasn’t discussing them and explaining why they are less likely to be pushed from a rules perspective.

Your assessment on how many new kits a faction received and their strength is questionable to say the least.

I’ve been asked to leave it, so I’ll leave it. Here's my take, again and now for the second time;

I wrote:The fact is we have a statement from an ex employee going into detail of how GW management intervene in balance decisions to ensure the sale of product. Then we have multiple, obvious examples of this in practice, recently and STILL people doubt it. There is no convincing these people. I'd rather not waste my time, again.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The fact is we have a statement from an ex employee going into detail of how GW management intervene in balance decisions to ensure the sale of product.

There are two who talked about that, one from Fantasy and one from 40k, with similar experience
We just don't know if this kind of decisions are still there after Nu GW took over

 kodos wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The fact is we have a statement from an ex employee going into detail of how GW management intervene in balance decisions to ensure the sale of product.

There are two who talked about that, one from Fantasy and one from 40k, with similar experience
We just don't know if this kind of decisions are still there after Nu GW took over

Agreed, we don’t know for sure if things have changed or not.

But when I see units like the Castellan released, the Daedalus, the Ad Mech tank, IFF, the Repulsor, the Slaanesh Daemon Prince + Herald wombo combo, the Kelermorph, the GSC bikes, the Nexos, most Forgeworld releases, the Disco Lord etc etc I have my answer. ‘Nu GW’ is old GW with a marketing team behind them, that is all.

 kodos wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The fact is we have a statement from an ex employee going into detail of how GW management intervene in balance decisions to ensure the sale of product.

There are two who talked about that, one from Fantasy and one from 40k, with similar experience
We just don't know if this kind of decisions are still there after Nu GW took over

Nu GW=old GW with improved PR department.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The fact is we have a statement from an ex employee going into detail of how GW management intervene in balance decisions to ensure the sale of product.

There are two who talked about that, one from Fantasy and one from 40k, with similar experience
We just don't know if this kind of decisions are still there after Nu GW took over

Agreed, we don’t know for sure if things have changed or not.

But when I see units like the Castellan released, the Daedalus, the Ad Mech tank, IFF, the Repulsor, the Slaanesh Daemon Prince + Herald wombo combo, the Kelermorph, the GSC bikes, the Nexos, most Forgeworld releases, the Disco Lord etc etc I have my answer. ‘Nu GW’ is old GW with a marketing team behind them, that is all.

Or your simply cherry picking to suit your narritive of GW releasing OP models to turn a profit?

I'm sorry, but the only one of those things you have listed that have had any impact on the meta of the game are the castellan and dico Lords. The first due to it being fed CP through soup. In pure knight lists it was manegable, and dare I say it, not obnoxious? Disco lord is really good, but again, with certain WL traits, warband rules, relics it goes up to silly levels, that's why it's strong.

Everything else has never been considered OP by no one. Repulsor Executioners are good in certain chapters. Kelemorph was a massive nothing burger, same as the nexus. As for FW being OP, I heartily laugh. Some things are good, but only if you apply certain rules. Or is that your definition of OP now, x faction synergises really well with model y, so it's obviously OP! But you carry on, claim new GW are just like old GW to suit your narrative that you relentlessly push in. Every. Thread.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The fact is we have a statement from an ex employee going into detail of how GW management intervene in balance decisions to ensure the sale of product.

There are two who talked about that, one from Fantasy and one from 40k, with similar experience
We just don't know if this kind of decisions are still there after Nu GW took over

Agreed, we don’t know for sure if things have changed or not.

But when I see units like the Castellan released, the Daedalus, the Ad Mech tank, IFF, the Repulsor, the Slaanesh Daemon Prince + Herald wombo combo, the Kelermorph, the GSC bikes, the Nexos, most Forgeworld releases, the Disco Lord etc etc I have my answer. ‘Nu GW’ is old GW with a marketing team behind them, that is all.

Or your simply cherry picking to suit your narritive of GW releasing OP models to turn a profit?

I'm sorry, but the only one of those things you have listed that have had any impact on the meta of the game are the castellan and dico Lords. The first due to it being fed CP through soup. In pure knight lists it was manegable, and dare I say it, not obnoxious? Disco lord is really good, but again, with certain WL traits, warband rules, relics it goes up to silly levels, that's why it's strong.

Everything else has never been considered OP by no one. Repulsor Executioners are good in certain chapters. Kelemorph was a massive nothing burger, same as the nexus. As for FW being OP, I heartily laugh. Some things are good, but only if you apply certain rules. Or is that your definition of OP now, x faction synergises really well with model y, so it's obviously OP! But you carry on, claim new GW are just like old GW to suit your narrative that you relentlessly push in. Every. Thread.

Obviously we have different opinions of what is OP. For me 'OP' is not the same as 'meta defining'.

Almost all (perhaps even, all) of the new GSC models have seen play at the top tables of massive events. I'm talking 1-4 place finishes. Not now, obviously, the Marine meta killed GSC like so many other factions. But before then they featured a fair bit and their variety of units was staggering.

Repulsor Executioners sold out in minutes because IH and the Ironstone made them insane. Then, once sold out the Ironstone was nerfed.

"Some Forgeworld things are good, but only if you apply certain rules" - you mean like what every faction has to do to compete at the top level? I guess Ynnarri Shining Spears weren't good because they only wrecked face if you allowed them to have 2 actions a turn with the application of "rules". Same with their Dark Reapers. I've seen enough Levi and Dorito Dreads, as well as the Calladius for Custodes to know where FW models stand.

As to your final ad hominem - I've stated this opinion in a couple of threads. Feel free to build up your own narrative as to my posts in "every" thread though.

Guys - I said I'm done. No more responses now. I've already got sucked into two. Feel free to argue amongst yourselves or attack me or whatever. You have my opinion, don't worry if you disagree, I won't be offended. Nor should you be offended if my opinion isn't the same as your own.

GW making insane IH rules doesnt mean they made the executioner OP to sell more of them. Outside of the Invictor and maybe the old TFC or the updated eliminators(why they got str 5 and have a no los sniper shot is a good question) none of the marine units have op rules.

Most of the marine book is quite balanced and there are very few rules that by themselves are a problem. It looks more like they didnt understand how stacking many small buffs works. It isnt additive but multiplicative. Which anyone who ever tried to math out stats/buffs in games like Diablo3, WoW or most other mmorpgs would know.

If they had known and accounted for that then they wouldnt have sold out on tfcs, eliminators and executioners but instead sold even more of them because they would have produced a surplus of them before the codex release. They just didnt know what units would sell because they themselves didnt understand what would come out on top. They probably decided on the rules for the executioner long before they even thought of the Ironstone.

We seem to have wandered off topic a little here...

Nurglitch wrote:
Speaking of Chapter Approved, the Castellan is going down 50pts? Didn't it just go up 50pts in 2018?

So we can get back to why the Castellan is apparently dropping 50pts? Maybe it's for nefarious reasons, and maybe it's because they're one of a few live options now that the points for everything else has changed?

I suspect the 50 pt Castellan drop is to make Ork players even saltier about the lackluster Stompa drop.

 ikeulhu wrote:
I suspect the 50 pt Castellan drop is to make Ork players even saltier about the lackluster Stompa drop.

I have a theory that there are too many cynical Ork players out there and THAT is why the Stompa is still so expensive.
I mean, if enough Ork players believed the Stompa was cost effective, it would be, right?

So the reason the Stompa is still overcosted is because Ork players don't believe GW will lower the cost enough. So they made it true with WAAAAGH magic

-

Nurglitch wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Speaking of Chapter Approved, the Castellan is going down 50pts? Didn't it just go up 50pts in 2018?

So we can get back to why the Castellan is apparently dropping 50pts? Maybe it's for nefarious reasons, and maybe it's because they're one of a few live options now that the points for everything else has changed?

I just checked a video and the Castellan is 510pts base (same as the codex) while it's main weapons are 100pts total (same as the last FAQ). Siegebreaker & shieldbreaker options are unchanged too. Not sure where this -50pts comes from.

 Galef wrote:
I have a theory that there are too many cynical Ork players out there and THAT is why the Stompa is still so expensive.
I mean, if enough Ork players believed the Stompa was cost effective, it would be, right?

So the reason the Stompa is still overcosted is because Ork players don't believe GW will lower the cost enough. So they made it true with WAAAAGH magic
-

I would not be surprised if that was indeed the truth of the matter!

 xttz wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Speaking of Chapter Approved, the Castellan is going down 50pts? Didn't it just go up 50pts in 2018?

So we can get back to why the Castellan is apparently dropping 50pts? Maybe it's for nefarious reasons, and maybe it's because they're one of a few live options now that the points for everything else has changed?

I just checked a video and the Castellan is 510pts base (same as the codex) while it's main weapons are 100pts total (same as the last FAQ). Siegebreaker & shieldbreaker options are unchanged too. Not sure where this -50pts comes from.

And I believe the reason the Castellan was OP in the first place was because you could stack the +1 invul WL trait with Rotate Ion Shields for a combined 3++. That got fixed so that you can never have better than 4++, so if it went up by 50pts in CA'18 just to go back down to the Codex price in CA'19, that's a good thing
It suggests that GW can recognize instances in which a Nerf AND a points increase may be overkill

-

 Galef wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Speaking of Chapter Approved, the Castellan is going down 50pts? Didn't it just go up 50pts in 2018?

So we can get back to why the Castellan is apparently dropping 50pts? Maybe it's for nefarious reasons, and maybe it's because they're one of a few live options now that the points for everything else has changed?

I just checked a video and the Castellan is 510pts base (same as the codex) while it's main weapons are 100pts total (same as the last FAQ). Siegebreaker & shieldbreaker options are unchanged too. Not sure where this -50pts comes from.

And I believe the reason the Castellan was OP in the first place was because you could stack the +1 invul WL trait with Rotate Ion Shields for a combined 3++. That got fixed so that you can never have better than 4++, so if it went up by 50pts in CA'18 just to go back down to the Codex price in CA'19, that's a good thing
It suggests that GW can recognize instances in which a Nerf AND a points increase may be overkill

-

The comment you're replying to is saying they DIDN'T do the thing you're talking about.

Indeed. The Castellan didn't change in either CA18 or CA19. All that's happened is that the big FAQ earlier this year added 100pts to it. Those points were carried into CA19, therefore the Castellan is unchanged.

Ah. I thought you were saying the points didn't change from Codex, meaning the last increase was ignored. Alas

-

So... the Castellan is unchanged?

 Galef wrote:

 ikeulhu wrote:
I suspect the 50 pt Castellan drop is to make Ork players even saltier about the lackluster Stompa drop.

I have a theory that there are too many cynical Ork players out there and THAT is why the Stompa is still so expensive.
I mean, if enough Ork players believed the Stompa was cost effective, it would be, right?

So the reason the Stompa is still overcosted is because Ork players don't believe GW will lower the cost enough. So they made it true with WAAAAGH magic

Can't argue with that logic, but then "hope is the first step to disappointment".

Nurglitch wrote:
So... the Castellan is unchanged?

Yeah. Castellan unchanged.

At least from my experience I am already seeing people fall off of book buying. Only the guys who actively go to tournaments bother buying books and that's because they're required to. There are already so many efficient, reliable and free ways to acquire rules for free that the need to buy them just isn't there like it was before.

Honestly even dex 2.0 isn't really an issue, except you intend to abuse the build a trait System.
The supplements though.....

And yeah i agree with this, those that played marines for marines sake are those that in essence will get to eat the soup out.

The book is out in 2 days, the points have more or less all leaked online, and this thread gets derailed every five minutes.

Maybe it's time to lock it down and move on? Because it sounds like all the News and Rumors have dried up, only to be replaced by (yet another) torrent off-topic nonsense.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
The book is out in 2 days, the points have more or less all leaked online, and this thread gets derailed every five minutes.

Maybe it's time to lock it down and move on? Because it sounds like all the News and Rumors have dried up, only to be replaced by (yet another) torrent off-topic nonsense.

It would be better if people could just stick to the topic of this N&R thread instead of locking it. If people wish to discuss the tangents that it has thrown up further then they are directed to create a thread for it and do so there.

 ingtaer wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
The book is out in 2 days, the points have more or less all leaked online, and this thread gets derailed every five minutes.

Maybe it's time to lock it down and move on? Because it sounds like all the News and Rumors have dried up, only to be replaced by (yet another) torrent off-topic nonsense.

It would be better if people could just stick to the topic of this N&R thread instead of locking it. If people wish to discuss the tangents that it has thrown up further then they are directed to create a thread for it and do so there.

I'm not sure there's much more to discuss on 'news' for this year's CA. We've known the book contents all week, there's nothing new left to learn. Any points changes are being discussed in detail in their relevant faction tactics thread.

 xttz wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
The book is out in 2 days, the points have more or less all leaked online, and this thread gets derailed every five minutes.

Maybe it's time to lock it down and move on? Because it sounds like all the News and Rumors have dried up, only to be replaced by (yet another) torrent off-topic nonsense.

It would be better if people could just stick to the topic of this N&R thread instead of locking it. If people wish to discuss the tangents that it has thrown up further then they are directed to create a thread for it and do so there.

I'm not sure there's much more to discuss on 'news' for this year's CA. We've known the book contents all week, there's nothing new left to learn. Any points changes are being discussed in detail in their relevant faction tactics thread.

Then let the thread die, rather than continually bumping it with requests for closure? The topic was sliding down the nrwa and rumours page until Manfred bumped it. Now you've done the same. And now me, ironically. Just stop posting here.

Edit: I better quietly slip out the back before ingtaer starts playing Secret Commissar.

Anyone with the book in hand yet? I can't officially buy mine until tomorrow, even though my LGS has them now but can't sell them yet

I'd be interesting to see a list of clear errors in the book. I never purchased CA'17 or CA'18, but with all points and some decent rules, I'm getting CA'19
I know of one of the biggest errors being the DW Vet squad uses the points values in the models-per-unit column. Essentially making it look like you can take 31 Terminators in the unit

-