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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Oxfordshire

 Overread wrote:
 Henry wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Nothing stops you using a D3.

Do you mean aside from the rules?


How do they stop you?
You're making a D3 roll. They use a D6 as an example because GW doesn't sell D3 dice and they keep all their system in-house as much as possible.

The rules also don't say you can use a digital dice roller, but people use them all the time.


You keep saying it's standard in gaming. I know how a D3 works. Except GW have made specific rules for a D3 in N17 that aren't conventional.

The rules (from the rulebook) are:

1) To roll a D3, roll a D6 and halve the result, rounding up.
2) Sometimes players will be instructed to modify a dice roll.... If the rules ever instruct the player to halve a result .... any fractions are rounded up unless otherwise instructed.
3) A ‘natural’ roll is the actual number rolled on a dice, regardless of any modifiers applied.

A roll of 1 one on a D6 is a natural 1 on a D3. A roll of a 2 on a D6 is not a natural 1 on a D3. Please stop saying things unsupported by the rules.
   
Made in se
[DCM]
Violent Enforcer





Skelleftea, Sweden

IMHO: Trying to argue that a ”natural 1 on a D3” is the exact same as a ”natural 1 on a D6” (odds and all) is beyond stupid.
(Edit/Note: I am not in any way claiming persons behind such an argument being stupid)

Sorry Henry, there are lots of rules in Newcromunda where the texts are (extremely) vague and/or misleading. Not around D3 though - where the whole point is having 33% possibilities.

By using the method suggested (not a mandatory one) by the Necro rules we are in fact rolling a D6 - which will only turn into a D3 *after the result is converted*, thus it is not a D3 at the time of the roll.
Therefore the whole quoting and other arguments are absurd.
Ask yourself: can one roll ”a natural 4” (or 5 or 6) on a D3?

Also a D3 modified by +1 is supposed to produce a result of 2-4, this clearly indicates that the first ”modification” (of the D6 roll) is done to make it a D3. Otherwise the +1 would have been added at the same time, producing a final result of 1-4.

Thus, all references to ”D3” is an *already modified D6 roll* (or a true or digital D3) and will always produce an unodified/natural result of 1-3.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/12 11:36:50


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Oxfordshire

 kendoka wrote:
IMHO: Trying to argue that a ”natural 1 on a D3” is the exact same as a ”natural 1 on a D6” (odds and all) is beyond stupid.

At least I've got the rules to support my position - hell, I've quoted them. I'd counter that trying to make an argument that doesn't bother to acknowledge the rules is beyond stupid.

A D3 as you know it (a dice that only produces three results) is not the same as a Necromunda17 D3 (I'll abbreviate this to N17D3 from now on to avoid confusion). If you are literally rolling a D3 while playing the game then you are not rolling an N17D3 - if that's how you want to play the game then that's cool, it's your custom house rule, I shan't be coming around your house to stop you playing that way. But, unless GW errata it, you will not be playing the game following the rulebook.


I'll add this to explain just why you're wrong (I know this was said by Overread, but you agreed with it):

 Overread wrote:
Rolling a D6 like a D3 isn't applying modifiers,

Yes it is - the rules literally say it is.

 Overread wrote:
its just getting around the fact that you've a D6 not a D3 to roll.

Please provide evidence for this, as there is nothing in the rules that says this. In fact the rules say the exact opposite.

 Overread wrote:
A modifier changes the result of the dice roll; rounding up/halving to get the actual result of the dice roll isn't modifying the result.

Yes it is - the rules literally say it is.

This really didn't age well
 Overread wrote:
It's more likely that anyone arguing against it is having a mental "derp" moment. We all get them when something is really simple, but something in our brain refuses to budge no matter how much logic we throw at it. Sometimes that doesn't end until hours later when the brain gets out of its rut and goes "You know you were an idiot back then!"
But then, you're not alone. The whole last page was full of people, like yourself, patting themselves on the back over not being able to understand a simple rule.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/11 15:01:24


 
   
Made in de
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine






Yeah there's no ambiguity there. 'To roll a D3, roll a D6 [...]' If they wanted to refer to the D3 roll of 1 (A natural 1 on a D3, no doubt about it.) they wouldn't have worded it that way in their system of halved D6s. It's not about stupidity...

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Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Henry wrote:
I thought it was pretty obvious. A natural roll is different from a roll result.
In N17 a D3 is a D6 with special rules. You can't just substitute a 6 sided D6 with a 4 sided D3. That's not supported by the rules. In N17 a D3 is a 6 sided dice that has natural numbers 1 to 6 which produces results (not natural) 1 to 3. I don't see what's difficult to understand.

I mean, bloody hell, the rules spell it out for you:
1) To roll a D3, roll aD6 and halve the result, rounding up.
2) Sometimes players will be instructed to modify a dice roll.... If the rules ever instruct the player to halve a result .... any fractions are rounded up unless otherwise instructed.
3) A ‘natural’ roll is the actual number rolled on a dice,regardless of any modifiers applied.

A roll of 1 one on a D6 is a natural 1 on a D3. A roll of a 2 on a D6 is not a natural 1 on a D3.

According to this argument, you would accept it as possible to roll a natural 6 on a D3?

I find it funny that people can see both sides and obvious, and find it difficult to even consider the other view. It was surprising to see the first wave of replies, all firmly supporting one side. But I knew from similar debate on Yaktribe that several players see it opposite (poll is split ca 50/50).

As someone else said, it takes a certain level of evil mastermind to even invent this confusion for something as basic as rolling a D3
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Oxfordshire

Baxx wrote:
According to this argument, you would accept it as possible to roll a natural 6 on a D3?
To be clear, I would say it was possible to roll a natural 6 on a N17D3, which would produce a modified result of 3.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/11 15:10:30


 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





JWBS wrote:

Oh ok, that makes it clearer. It also makes the question more relevant, I can now see a very reasonable case for the other interpretation.

/edit - in fact, I'd probably argue that only a single pip on the D6 results in failure, because a 1/3 chance of failure, even in a narrative game like Necro, seems to be less fun, and the author of the rule intended failure to be 1/6, whilst still having successful rolls result in +4" to +6" movement bonus.

Yeah, logically I agree with the strict D3 point of view, I won't accept changing the definition of something as basic as dice. On the other side, the 1/3 probability of failure is really harsh. I know at least 2 places with this wording. One is for new Goliath Stimmer (champion), who can gain additional attacks, but is reduced to a single attack if failed (again 33.33% change). I would never use that ability, as the stimmer should have enough attacks from base stats and additional close combat weapon.

For the new Orlock specialist juve (Wrecker prospect), I could be tempted, but failing a Charge (and becoming Pinned instead) can in critical situations be a death sentence.

So yeah, I agree the failure is "less fun". I would use both abilities (almost) every time if the chance of failure was 1/6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Henry wrote:
Baxx wrote:
According to this argument, you would accept it as possible to roll a natural 6 on a D3?
To be clear, I would say it was possible to roll a natural 6 on a N17D3, which would produce a modified result of 3.

That is very precise sir! I can understand your view, but rolling a natural 6 on a D3 still sounds hilarious to me

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/11 15:18:54


 
   
Made in fi
Crazed Wardancer





 Henry wrote:
 kendoka wrote:
IMHO: Trying to argue that a ”natural 1 on a D3” is the exact same as a ”natural 1 on a D6” (odds and all) is beyond stupid.

At least I've got the rules to support my position - hell, I've quoted them.
No, you haven't, not in full at least. This is what I believe to be the actual quote from the rulebook - verbatim. Please indicate if it is incomplete, and correct it if necessary (this text is taken from a poster on another forum; I took it to be the exact text as found in the rulebook, which I do not have at hand):
"D3 - The rules might also call for a D3 to be rolled, but an actual three-sided dice is not necessary. To roll a D3, roll a D6 and halve the result, rounding up."
This text clearly indicates that while you can roll a D6 to represent the D3, this is not the only way to get this result: while "an actual three-sided dice is not necessary", it seemingly is an option if you do possess one. In addition, the halving of the dice to create D3 results is not clearly regarded as a modification - this is a separate entry in the rules.


Finally, I think we can indeed safely agree that this is, after all, an area that requires an FAQ solution, and is not clearly A or B.
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut





The poll at yaktribe has 20 votes in favour of 1/3 failure and 17 in favour of 1/6 failure. A strangely polarizing topic, each side often have this automatic assumption that their initial interpretation is correct, and can't even understand that others see it differently. Almost like modern politics?
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Ehhh...it really only needs an FAQ if you're looking for an argument.

If you're supposed to halve your result, and a 1 or 2 is considered a 1--that would be the 'natural 1' result on a D3.

In any regards, make a thread for it elsewhere. This is News and Rumors.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Oxfordshire

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
No, you haven't, not in full at least.

Snipping pieces of text is common and, so long as it doesn't change the context of the quote, perfectly acceptable. Nothing I cut out changed the context. The rules support my position.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
This is what I believe to be the actual quote from the rulebook - verbatim.....
"D3 - The rules might also call for a D3 to be rolled, but an actual three-sided dice is not necessary. To roll a D3, roll a D6 and halve the result, rounding up."
See, snipping unnecessary text.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
This text clearly indicates that while you can roll a D6 to represent the D3, this is not the only way to get this result: while "an actual three-sided dice is not necessary", it seemingly is an option if you do possess one.

Nothing you just quoted supports that. There is a direct instruction on how to roll a D3 in Necromunda17 - you roll a D6 and modify it. Inferring anything different, or thinking you can roll any other sort of dice to get the result, is you inventing new rules that aren't supported by the rulebook.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
In addition, the halving of the dice to create D3 results is not clearly regarded as a modification - this is a separate entry in the rules.
Sorry, I'm completely baffled by how you come to this conclusion.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Finally, I think we can indeed safely agree that this is, after all, an area that requires an FAQ solution, and is not clearly A or B.
As there seems to be so much confusion this absolutely needs an FAQ. I can fully appreciate how people have come to the wrong answer, but there is only one correct answer. I'll stop now as I'm clearly being argumentative for the sake of it, but I felt a little provoked by the self congratulatory gibberish I'd read on the previous page.

Baxx wrote:
That is very precise sir! I can understand your view, but rolling a natural 6 on a D3 still sounds hilarious to me
You're welcome. Hilarious, but correct.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/11 15:39:18


 
   
Made in gb
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





 Kanluwen wrote:
Ehhh...it really only needs an FAQ if you're looking for an argument.

If you're supposed to halve your result, and a 1 or 2 is considered a 1--that would be the 'natural 1' result on a D3.


Why include the word "Natural" then? If 1 is equal to natural 1 and 2 is equal to natural 1 it seems redundant (which is the reason I asked for an example of possible modifiers - I was thinking there was a possibility of a skill along the lines of "Character can subtract 1 from dice roll", which would make 3 be equal to 1, but not natural 1, but this doesn't seem to be the case).

Anyway, this is probably the first RAW discussion I've been involved in for at least a decade or two, and I've had my mind changed, so no one can accuse me of partisanship on this issue, I now plan to take another twenty year sabbatical from RAW discussions, Au revoir to you all : )
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

Today, here, on Necromunda, we’ll discuss the value of tight rules writing and play testing. Later on, we’ll also look at how games companies are adapting the DLC model and splash releases to capitalize on FOMO to boost sales.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







...I take it at least some of y'all have contacted whatever the FAQ email address is for Necromunda to flag the "natural 1" situation for an FAQ?

Is there an actual 3-sided die on the market? I know in the Dungeon Crawl Classics dice set I have (which includes things like a d5 and d7, amongst other oddities), the d3 is a d6 numbered I to III on two sides each.

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Made in gb
Princeps of the Titan 'SDF-1'






See my earlier post

There are those as you described, but also kind of cylindrical ones, with three tapering flat edges.

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Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
See my earlier post

There are those as you described, but also kind of cylindrical ones, with three tapering flat edges.

And also dice apps. It is rather absurd that people think that D3 that has only three possible results can produce 1/6 odds.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There are those as you described, but also kind of cylindrical ones, with three tapering flat edges.


Oh, like a more extreme example of those Light Elf Logs that were recently released as d6? Interesting.

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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Oxfordshire

 Crimson wrote:
It is rather absurd that people think that D3 that has only three possible results can produce 1/6 odds.

Okay, last one, I promise.

In Necromunda what is a D3? Please provide me the rule reference for what a D3 is.

I can tell you what a D6 is as the rule says "D6 – This is a regular six-sided dice, marked 1 to 6".
I can also tell you what a D3 is. The rules say it is "...roll a D6 and halve the result...".

It doesn't say a D3 is a three or four sided dice marked 1 to 3 - in Necromunda that is not a D3. If you roll a three or four sided dice marked 1 to 3 you are not rolling a Necromunda D3.

Why are people assuming that the rules don't mean what they say?
A D3 in Necromunda has three possible results from six natural numbers because you roll a D6 and modify it.

What is absurd is that people are finding this simple rule so difficult to understand.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/09/11 17:00:51


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Henry wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
It is rather absurd that people think that D3 that has only three possible results can produce 1/6 odds.

Okay, last one, I promise.

You do?

In Necromunda what is a D3? Please provide me the rule reference for what a D3 is.

I can tell you what a D6 is as the rule says "D6 – This is a regular six-sided dice, marked 1 to 6".
I can also tell you what a D3 is. The rules say it is "...roll a D6 and halve the result...".

Why are people assuming that the rules don't mean what they say?
A D3 in Necromunda has three possible results from six natural numbers.

It says that physical D3 is not necessary, not that one cannot be used. The instructions of how to obtain the result using a six sided dice are merely for the convenience of those who may not obtain physical d3s or dice apps. Arguing anything else is an utterly bizarre case of rules-lawyering that goes against both logic and common sense.

What is absurd is that people are finding this simple rule so difficult to understand.

On that we agree.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Oxfordshire

 Crimson wrote:
The instructions of how to obtain the result using a six sided dice are merely for the convenience of those who may not obtain physical d3s
Have you any evidence to prove this or are you just making stuff up. As I said before, if this is your house rule then that's cool. But don't pretend it's the actual rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
It says that physical D3 is not necessary, not that one cannot be used.

So please show me the rules for what a D3 is.

They have gone to the effort of defining a D6 -"D6 – This is a regular six-sided dice, marked 1 to 6", I'm sure it should be relatively easy for you to show me the rule where they define a D3 as an object marked 1 to 3. (there ought to be a crickets emoji. Or maybe a tumbleweed)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/11 17:06:31


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I thought a "natural" roll meant the actual facing of the die that comes up, therefore a "natural" 1 on a D3 would only be possible when the facing side shows "1".

A facing side of "2" would still result in a 1 for the purposes of the role, but it, in essence, would be an unnatural 1.

   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Henry wrote:

Okay, last one, I promise.

I knew this was a lie!

If you are unable to understand how language works, what dice are or what their purpose it the conversation is pointless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I thought a "natural" roll meant the actual facing of the die that comes up, therefore a "natural" 1 on a D3 would only be possible when the facing side shows "1".

A facing side of "2" would still result in a 1 for the purposes of the role, but it, in essence, would be an unnatural 1.

No, the naturalness only refers to modifiers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/11 17:15:42


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Oxfordshire

 Crimson wrote:
I knew this was a lie!

Yes, I appologise, but I wasn't prepared for quite how inane the response was going to be.

 Crimson wrote:
If you are unable to understand how language works, what dice are or what their purpose it the conversation is pointless.
If you are unable to understand how to apply the understanding of language to written rules then, yeah, there's no point.

The problem as I see it is exactly as you've laid it out, and I honestly do understand how you've come to your conclusion. Those in your camp are approaching the game with an assumption of what a D3 is and are then completely ignoring the rules of the game when they run contrary to that assumption. As I always said as a rules lawyer - I can stand here and tell you how the rules work, but I can't force you to follow them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/11 17:21:34


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Henry wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
I knew this was a lie!

Yes, I appologise, but I wasn't prepared for quite how inane the response was going to be.

 Crimson wrote:
If you are unable to understand how language works, what dice are or what their purpose it the conversation is pointless.
If you are unable to understand how to apply the understanding of language to written rules then, yeah, there's no point.

The problem as I see it is exactly as you've laid it out, and I honestly do understand how you've come to your conclusion. Those in your camp are approaching the game with an assumption of what a D3 is and are then completely ignoring the rules of the game when they run contrary to that assumption. As I always said as a rules lawyer - I can stand here and tell you how the rules work, but I can't force you to follow them.


Let's quote the rules then.

Necromunda Rulebook wrote:The rules might also call a D3 to be rolled, but an actual three-sided dice is not necessary. To roll a D3, roll a D6 and halve the result, rounding up

So the process of rolling a D3 is to roll D6, halve it and round up. Until you have completed this whole process, you have not rolled a D3, and no result for it exist. Thus only possible outcomes of this process are 1, 2 and 3. Savvy?


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/11 17:34:14


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Oxfordshire

 Crimson wrote:
Necromunda Rulebook wrote:The rules might also call a D3 to be rolled, but an actual three-sided dice is not necessary. To roll a D3, roll a D6 and halve the result, rounding up

So the process of rolling a D3 is to roll D6, halve it and round up. Until you have completed this whole process, you have not rolled a D3, and no result for it exist. Thus only possible outcomes of this process are 1, 2 and 3. The end.

Okay, we're getting somewhere. From this then I take it you concede that a D3 in Necromunda is not a dice marked 1 to 3, but is in fact a modified D6?
Then we go to the rule for natural numbers - "A ‘natural’ roll is the actual number rolled on a dice, regardless of any modifiers applied".

Specifically:
 Crimson wrote:

Until you have completed this whole process, you have not rolled a D3, and no result for it exist.
Precisely - now you're getting it.
The important part is that it doesn't matter what the result of the D3 is. It only matters what the natural roll of the D6 is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
Thus only possible outcomes of this process are 1, 2 and 3. Savvy?

This is irrelevant as we aren't interested in the result of the D3, we are interested in the natural roll of the D6.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/11 17:42:01


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Since the rules don't forbid you using an actual D3* are you arguing that if you roll a D6 for a D3 result then you can potentially have a 1/6 chances at a natural 1; whilst if you roll an actual D3 you'd have only a 1/3 chance of a natural 1?




*They state that you do not necessarily need to use a D3, not that you are forbidden from using one.

   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Henry wrote:

Okay, we're getting somewhere. From this then I take it you concede that a D3 in Necromunda is not a dice marked 1 to 3, but is in fact a modified D6?

It doesn't matter. It is merely a process for producing a random number from one to three.

Then we go to the rule for natural numbers - "A ‘natural’ roll is the actual number rolled on a dice, regardless of any modifiers applied".

Yes. In case of D3 that number is either one, two or three. No other possibilities exist.

The important part is that it doesn't matter what the result of the D3 is. It only matters what the natural roll of the D6 is.

The result happens on natural roll of one on D3. Until you have halved and rounded up your D6 roll, you do not have a result of the D3 roll.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Spoiler:

This is more or less the only kind of D3 I've seen...and it's basically just the worst design I've ever seen.
   
Made in gb
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores





Uk

This is the most ridiculous argument I have ever read

*witty comment regarding table top gaming* 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Kanluwen wrote:
Spoiler:

This is more or less the only kind of D3 I've seen...and it's basically just the worst design I've ever seen.


MDG has indicated another type, but I think I prefer the re-labelled d6 approach, personally - with I, II & III appearing on two faces each.

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