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Baxx wrote:
We had a few previews of the new Orlock stuff, the new hammer with versatile 1" which is hard to understand how works, but also the jump booster which can malfunction on a natural roll of 1 on a D3. So here is another question for you, what is the probability of rolling a natural 1 on a D3? Same applies to Stimmer's Combat Chems Stash.

I'd say it's 1/3. There seems to be no ambiguity here, I appreciate all of your error alerts but in this case it's not even a semantic issue. Maybe you're joking, idk.

No I am not. I've heard others say the exact opposite as you, and they can't understand how anyone can question this.

The result of the D3 has always been...

1-2 = 1
3-4 = 2
5-6 = 3

So to roll a 1 result, it’s a 1 or 2 on the initial D6.

I'm not gonna advocate either way here, but your opinions are interesting (and appreciated).

They might as well argue that a 2D6 based test can’t be a 7 or higher, only two separate results?

Roll the dice, do the sum, that’s your result.

A natural 1 or a natural 2 are both equal to natural 1 in this case. There's nothing equivocal here as far as I can see.

The confusion comes from the rules for D3 says use a D6, then halve the result (rounding up). You are however most likely right, but as mentioned, others would look at it differently.

The people looking at it differently would be engaging in a pretty blatant equivocation. If someone tried that, it'd make me concede the game on the spot - life is too short and miserable to play a game against someone that bent out of shape about winning at any cost.

Baxx wrote:
The confusion comes from the rules for D3 says use a D6, then halve the result (rounding up). You are however most likely right, but as mentioned, others would look at it differently.

There’s no result until the sum is complete.

Otherwise, strictly speaking you’ve not rolled a 1, unless you’ve rolled a 2.

Hence my equivalence to claiming by the same logic that a 2D6 roll can’t reach 7 or higher, but you’ve really only rolled say, a 6 and a 1 and so on.

Half of 1 is 0.5 round up to 1
Half of 2 is 1

Half of 3 is 1.5, round up to 2
Half of 4 is 2

Half of 5 is 2.5 round up to 3
Half of 6 is 3

or
1 and 2 are 1
3 and 4 are 2
5 and 6 are 3

It's exactly the same either way.

The thing is a "natural 1" would be before modifiers such as the halving. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I know others have the opposite opinion. I can see both ways though.

If it is 1/3 chance of failure, then I'm never using Stimmer's ability and think twice or 3 times before using Wrecker's jump boost. Getting Pinned when making a Charge can be a death sentence.

Baxx wrote:
The thing is a "natural 1" would be before modifiers such as the halving. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I know others have the opposite opinion. I can see both ways though.

If it is 1/3 chance of failure, then I'm never using Stimmer's ability and think twice or 3 times before using Wrecker's jump boost. Getting Pinned when making a Charge can be a death sentence.

Yeah. I can see both interpretations being made and not because someone is being WAAC.
Just makes pre-game discussions so much more of a hassle.

Rolling a D6 like a D3 isn't applying modifiers, its just getting around the fact that you've a D6 not a D3 to roll. A modifier changes the result of the dice roll; rounding up/halving to get the actual result of the dice roll isn't modifying the result.

Genuine D3 also exist.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lergo-10pcs-Sided-Desktop-Playing/dp/B07SW4P88Z/ref=pd_lpo_21_img_1/258-9537104-5086056?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07SW4P88Z&pd_rd_r=aefe4640-66ec-4366-bbc5-1d7aae2cf37b&pd_rd_w=d1DDZ&pd_rd_wg=IoULY&pf_rd_p=7b8e3b03-1439-4489-abd4-4a138cf4eca6&pf_rd_r=XT55HE4XZYZW28VCQWAQ&psc=1&refRID=XT55HE4XZYZW28VCQWAQ

The D6, half and round up is only a work around. Always has been.

 Overread wrote:
Rolling a D6 like a D3 isn't applying modifiers, its just getting around the fact that you've a D6 not a D3 to roll. A modifier changes the result of the dice roll; rounding up/halving to get the actual result of the dice roll isn't modifying the result.

Exactly.
Anybody claiming otherwise should be given a harsh pointy stick whipping.

Not 100% clear on how I would handle a player bringing a 66 sided dice though

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Genuine D3 also exist.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lergo-10pcs-Sided-Desktop-Playing/dp/B07SW4P88Z/ref=pd_lpo_21_img_1/258-9537104-5086056?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07SW4P88Z&pd_rd_r=aefe4640-66ec-4366-bbc5-1d7aae2cf37b&pd_rd_w=d1DDZ&pd_rd_wg=IoULY&pf_rd_p=7b8e3b03-1439-4489-abd4-4a138cf4eca6&pf_rd_r=XT55HE4XZYZW28VCQWAQ&psc=1&refRID=XT55HE4XZYZW28VCQWAQ

The D6, half and round up is only a work around. Always has been.

Bring one of those and someone, somewhere will likely accuse you of cheating

What if GW crafts such wording so we can quickly detect people that won’t be fun to play against? (Not referring to Baxx. Dude is only asking the question)

 kendoka wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Rolling a D6 like a D3 isn't applying modifiers, its just getting around the fact that you've a D6 not a D3 to roll. A modifier changes the result of the dice roll; rounding up/halving to get the actual result of the dice roll isn't modifying the result.

Exactly.
Anybody claiming otherwise should be given a harsh pointy stick whipping.

It's more likely that anyone arguing against it is having a mental "derp" moment. We all get them when something is really simple, but something in our brain refuses to budge no matter how much logic we throw at it. Sometimes that doesn't end until hours later when the brain gets out of its rut and goes "You know you were an idiot back then!"

Heck, they do that with all their games. I firmly believe they write games that are fun to play with people who are your friends or at least people you'd like to remain friendly with.

Of course, in environments where pick up games are the norm, people rely heavily on the publisher to have tight rules that don't require a 15 minute pre-game chat about this/that weapon option and interpretation of various things (e.g., which list of options will we use for us both playing Escher if you have the Gangs book only and I have Book of Blades).

Eh the D3 has been in DnD for generations and other games too. It's a staple of gaming. It's no different to them just giving results as a 1-2 do x - 3-4 do y and 5-6 do z.. Roll a D3 is just quicker and after 2 mins explaining most pepole get it without issue.

Good to see some unity here, it won't be a problem should an of us play together. I much agree with the consensus. I think the word "natural" is what makes some players think otherwise.

Phew, I for one would rather play against someone who happens to have a different interpretation of what a "natural roll of 1 on a D3 that's actually a halved D6" means, than someone who would immediately accuse anyone with a differing opinion of trying to cheat or purposefully being obtuse.

My immediate interpretation was that it referred to the D3 roll (i.e. the D6 roll of 1-2), but I can certainly see how someone might see it as meaning the D6 roll of a 1 only. As D3s for GW also only ever refer to a halved D6 roll (and Newcromunda has a talent for both being unclear and occasionally counter-intuitive), I would not be entirely surprised if that's even what they meant, even if it seems illogical to me.

My immediate interpretation was that it referred to the D3 roll (i.e. the D6 roll of 1-2), but I can certainly see how someone might see it as meaning the D6 roll of a 1 only. As D3s for GW also only ever refer to a halved D6 roll (and Newcromunda has a talent for both being unclear and occasionally counter-intuitive), I would not be entirely surprised if that's even what they meant, even if it seems illogical to me.

Is there any reason to not use a D6 instead of a D3 if that is the case though? (genuine question, I don't play the game, I have no idea what modifiers are possible, how often they'd be applicable, and on top of that I'm not super great with probabilities). I am assuming it's because there are relevant modifiers but they still want a high failure rate, but I don't know. What's some of the possible scenarios for failure where this discussion might come up?

I thought it was pretty obvious. A natural roll is different from a roll result.
In N17 a D3 is a D6 with special rules. You can't just substitute a 6 sided D6 with a 4 sided D3. That's not supported by the rules. In N17 a D3 is a 6 sided dice that has natural numbers 1 to 6 which produces results (not natural) 1 to 3. I don't see what's difficult to understand.

I mean, bloody hell, the rules spell it out for you:
1) To roll a D3, roll aD6 and halve the result, rounding up.
2) Sometimes players will be instructed to modify a dice roll.... If the rules ever instruct the player to halve a result .... any fractions are rounded up unless otherwise instructed.
3) A ‘natural’ roll is the actual number rolled on a dice,regardless of any modifiers applied.

A roll of 1 one on a D6 is a natural 1 on a D3. A roll of a 2 on a D6 is not a natural 1 on a D3.

JWBS wrote:

My immediate interpretation was that it referred to the D3 roll (i.e. the D6 roll of 1-2), but I can certainly see how someone might see it as meaning the D6 roll of a 1 only. As D3s for GW also only ever refer to a halved D6 roll (and Newcromunda has a talent for both being unclear and occasionally counter-intuitive), I would not be entirely surprised if that's even what they meant, even if it seems illogical to me.

Is there any reason to not use a D6 instead of a D3 if that is the case though? (genuine question, I don't play the game, I have no idea what modifiers are possible, how often they'd be applicable, and on top of that I'm not super great with probabilities). I am assuming it's because there are relevant modifiers but they still want a high failure rate, but I don't know. What's some of the possible scenarios for failure where this discussion might come up?

This particular situation came up with the previewed "jump boosters", which add D3+3" to a move, but malfunction on that roll of a "natural 1". So the nature of the die is functional here, to simply limit the potential movement distance.

 Henry wrote:
I thought it was pretty obvious. A natural roll is different from a roll result.
In N17 a D3 is a D6 with special rules. You can't just substitute a 6 sided D6 with a 4 sided D3. That's not supported by the rules. In N17 a D3 is a 6 sided dice that has natural numbers 1 to 6 which produces results (not natural) 1 to 3. I don't see what's difficult to understand.

Well, that's part of the catch: from a quote I saw elsewhere, the rulebook states you can use the "halved D6", but it's not outright stated you have to, so people could for example use an actual D3 if they have one. Furthermore, I'd argue the halving of the D6 is not a modifier in the typical sense of the word - it's not about altering the value of the roll, it's about simulating rolling another type of die, which has the natural results of rolling a 1, 2 or 3, after which modifiers can be added as normal to create the final resulting score.



Well, last time some issues were discovered in the preview, they were (partially) solved in the day-1 FAQ, maybe they'll do so again this time.

I thought it was pretty obvious. A natural roll is different from a roll result.
In N17 a D3 is a D6 with special rules. You can't just substitute a 6 sided D6 with a 4 sided D3. That's not supported by the rules. In N17 a D3 is a 6 sided dice that has natural numbers 1 to 6 which produces results (not natural) 1 to 3. I don't see what's difficult to understand.

Is that a reply to my question?

 Henry wrote:
I thought it was pretty obvious. A natural roll is different from a roll result.
In N17 a D3 is a D6 with special rules. You can't just substitute a 6 sided D6 with a 4 sided D3. That's not supported by the rules. In N17 a D3 is a 6 sided dice that has natural numbers 1 to 6 which produces results (not natural) 1 to 3. I don't see what's difficult to understand.

Nothing stops you using a D3. GW just doesn't sell them for the game so they use a D6. It's standard gaming practice and has been for years.

If you really don't like it you could modify a D6 to simply read 1 2 and 3 on two sides instead of one side.



A 1 or 2 on a D6 being used as a D3 is a natural 1.

 Overread wrote:
Nothing stops you using a D3.

Do you mean aside from the rules?

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

JWBS wrote:

My immediate interpretation was that it referred to the D3 roll (i.e. the D6 roll of 1-2), but I can certainly see how someone might see it as meaning the D6 roll of a 1 only. As D3s for GW also only ever refer to a halved D6 roll (and Newcromunda has a talent for both being unclear and occasionally counter-intuitive), I would not be entirely surprised if that's even what they meant, even if it seems illogical to me.

Is there any reason to not use a D6 instead of a D3 if that is the case though? (genuine question, I don't play the game, I have no idea what modifiers are possible, how often they'd be applicable, and on top of that I'm not super great with probabilities). I am assuming it's because there are relevant modifiers but they still want a high failure rate, but I don't know. What's some of the possible scenarios for failure where this discussion might come up?

This particular situation came up with the previewed "jump boosters", which add D3+3" to a move, but malfunction on that roll of a "natural 1". So the nature of the die is functional here, to simply limit the potential movement distance.

Oh ok, that makes it clearer. It also makes the question more relevant, I can now see a very reasonable case for the other interpretation.

/edit - in fact, I'd probably argue that only a single pip on the D6 results in failure, because a 1/3 chance of failure, even in a narrative game like Necro, seems to be less fun, and the author of the rule intended failure to be 1/6, whilst still having successful rolls result in +4" to +6" movement bonus.

 Henry wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Nothing stops you using a D3.

Do you mean aside from the rules?

How do they stop you?
You're making a D3 roll. They use a D6 as an example because GW doesn't sell D3 dice and they keep all their system in-house as much as possible.

The rules also don't say you can use a digital dice roller, but people use them all the time.