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artific3r wrote:
The specific numbers don't really matter any more at this point. Not until we know how everything else is balanced.

It's time for us to forget everything we've ever known about what "T5" means in the context of 40k. The whole system is changing.

I wouldn't go that far. Marines are still T4, Bolters are S4 power fist are still S8

Fair enough. I suppose a good deal of the current relationships are being preserved even if a lot of things are changing. Let's say Custodes went to T6. Would that be a significant buff against current weapon profiles?

No, due to the new special rules that may be coming out on specific weapons. For instance, the new "devestating Wounds" worries me. It's like a worse variant of the HotE rule, except now every faction might get access to it.

But it's already badly implemented. An Assault Cannon does devestating wounds, but a Tau Railgun head shot doesn't? Also, correct me here, but Aren't Assault cannons smaller calibre than Heavy Bolters, ie, should HBs be doing devestating wounds?

I will say though, this is a fairly massive buff to the Relic Contemptor, if it gets it. Heavy 6 at S6 with MWs on 6s? Yes please.

Anyone else want to bet Kheres patten assault cannons stay At 7?

As for custodes going to Toughness 6, if the rules are anywhere near similar IG gunlines just got much less scary.

I dunno, the new USR keyword on weapons leaves me interested to find out what has what. If tau or Nids can suddenly field cheap units with Dev Wounds, or IG infantry squads have quick access to it in the form of say, krak grenade launcher, it changes the game up a LOT. What good is a 2+4++ if your opponent can field chaff with MW weapons? I don't want to even guess at what Custodes will look like until we see the base weapons for most races shake out.

If suddenly HBs (which fire a more powerful round than an assault Cannon) get DW 2/3 it's gonna get ugly fast, and it's off to the races.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
But it's already badly implemented. An Assault Cannon does devestating wounds, but a Tau Railgun head shot doesn't?

Have we seen the Tau railgun profile? Do we know it won't?

It’s also reminiscent of Rending-something Assault Cannons had, and Heavy Bolters did not.

 nordsturmking wrote:
I wouldn't go that far. Marines are still T4, Bolters are S4 power fist are still S8

Given that they've moved vehicles further from infantry they may be taking advantage of the greater room allowed for infantry as well. Since T6 isn't a light vehicle anymore they could make T6 superheavy infantry like Custodes, Death Guard Terminators, things along those lines.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It’s also reminiscent of Rending-something Assault Cannons had, and Heavy Bolters did not.

Devastating Wounds definitely feels like a much more reasonable version of Rending.

 tuebor wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
I wouldn't go that far. Marines are still T4, Bolters are S4 power fist are still S8

Given that they've moved vehicles further from infantry they may be taking advantage of the greater room allowed for infantry as well. Since T6 isn't a light vehicle anymore they could make T6 superheavy infantry like Custodes, Death Guard Terminators, things along those lines.

We know regular marines are T4 and Terminators are T5, would it not follow that Regular Custodes are T5 and Custodes Terminators are T6? This has been my guesstimate based on what we know so far.

It has always troubled me that Custodes terminators were just "+1 wound" in 8th and 9th edition, didn't seem like much of a difference.

I really don't think GW cares about balance when it comes to Custodes. It's clear they're one of the over-sight factions.There are so many Invuln piercing attacks now that Invulns are barely worth the cost, and S/T scores are irrelevant for basically the same reason. Either something does auto-wounds, or something puts out so much dakka as to be irrelevant. In some cases, (Infantry squads) both.

I highly doubt Custodes will get any significant changes in 9th, we are already an entire force of SM Captains basically.

I will fully accept the censure as a charletan if I'm wrong, but I think 9th are the last "great" changes you'll see for this faction. It's points updates and minor tweaks for the next rounds. We can't go up without breaking a lot of the game, and if we go down we are kinda worthless. We are perfectly boring, which is right where GW wants us. 50ish percent WR, and not majorly borked stuff.

Spartacus wrote:
We know regular marines are T4 and Terminators are T5, would it not follow that Regular Custodes are T5 and Custodes Terminators are T6? This has been my guesstimate based on what we know so far. It has always troubled me that Custodes terminators were just "+1 wound" in 8th and 9th edition, didn't seem like much of a difference.

Maybe. It'll depend on what the design philosophy looks like. I'm really hoping they make more room for infantry at the high end but they might not. They haven't shown us any infantry datasheets tougher than a Terminator but we may see some Tyranid ones next weekend when they have demo games at WarhammerFest, depending on what's in the starter box.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I really don't think GW cares about balance when it comes to Custodes. It's clear they're one of the over-sight factions.There are so many Invuln piercing attacks now that Invulns are barely worth the cost, and S/T scores are irrelevant for basically the same reason. Either something does auto-wounds, or something puts out so much dakka as to be irrelevant. In some cases, (Infantry squads) both.

I highly doubt Custodes will get any significant changes in 9th, we are already an entire force of SM Captains basically.

I will fully accept the censure as a charletan if I'm wrong, but I think 9th are the last "great" changes you'll see for this faction. It's points updates and minor tweaks for the next rounds. We can't go up without breaking a lot of the game, and if we go down we are kinda worthless. We are perfectly boring, which is right where GW wants us. 50ish percent WR, and not majorly borked stuff.

Everything is getting large changes, simply because the main rules and design philosophy are changing significantly. Many things just won't work in the same way as before and a lot of things like WLTs, Relics and Strategems are getting consolidated andor trimmed down severely. Reduced overall AP is going to be great for us. Battleshock will pretty much never effect us and it's going to be tough on certain armies. Apart from that there's no real way to know since we've seen so little but mostly I'm interested in what their design philosophy regarding points will be but without the context of the full game and rules it wouldn't mean a ton right now anyway.

As for later, I think we'll get Sisters fleshed out a little in the next Codex. I say this because in 30k the Sisters got a pretty sick little army list with neat units that don't have models yet. I think we may get a new Sisters box with some of those extra weapons we don't have, the jetbikes and maybe a character box, all of which would be useful in both games. I really hope Sisters have some morale fuckery, like maybe a strat to just straight force a Battleshock test and reduce leadership within a certain range. I'd do bad things to good people at this point to get my hands on the Custodes index file.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I really don't think GW cares about balance when it comes to Custodes. It's clear they're one of the over-sight factions.There are so many Invuln piercing attacks now that Invulns are barely worth the cost, and S/T scores are irrelevant for basically the same reason. Either something does auto-wounds, or something puts out so much dakka as to be irrelevant. In some cases, (Infantry squads) both.

I highly doubt Custodes will get any significant changes in 9th, we are already an entire force of SM Captains basically.

I will fully accept the censure as a charletan if I'm wrong, but I think 9th are the last "great" changes you'll see for this faction. It's points updates and minor tweaks for the next rounds. We can't go up without breaking a lot of the game, and if we go down we are kinda worthless. We are perfectly boring, which is right where GW wants us. 50ish percent WR, and not majorly borked stuff.

Well. Good thing we aren't interested in 9e changes now. 10e is around the corner and nobody knows custodian rules in 10e yet.

hi guys, Im running a version of jack harpsters infantry list these days and I love it.

its basically 5x3 sagittarum, 6termies, 3x5 flame girls and either 4 wardens or 2x3 shield guard. Optimal HQ with bike cap/trajan. I only own 10 sisters of silence, therefore I only run 2x5 and a solo allarus instead of the third.

The list obliterates marines and it dominates any t4 or less army, imo. When you have to go into vehicles you can do that with rendax and if needed the termies.

yesterday, though, I got smashed by the most unlikely foe. Orks. I just couldn't handle them. Every thing was t5 or better and because the list does lack speed, I couldn't reach his back field in any reasonable way.

We played a six objective mission with opposite deployments on the deep side (not broad. idk how to explain it better in English : ) So he just bits'ed for 15 in no time and green tide for a lot too. he move blocked my termie blob with a big car and all my shooting was wounding his guys on fours or 5s.The 2x6 beast snaggas where brutal at t6 in this regard.

when he fought, Everything beat me at s6+ in melee due to goffs charging so I had to transhuman all the time, burning cp like crazy.

Also, he warghed t2 and I could only screen 2 flanks (a third unit of sisters would have allowed me to screen the center better). So he was faster, stronger, tougher AND had better shooting as his rocket cars and defkoptas and rocket boos all deal flat 3. So every four I DIDNT roll was a dead custodian.

It was brutal. all the numbers were in his favor and he had 3 times as many guys.

so my question is: do you consider orks a super bad matchup with this list or am I just playing the list wrong into it?

also, any tips on how to play without the speed of bikes? how do you guys cope with the lack of speed with custodes sans bikes in general? I run aleya and some Silly teleport tech, but its hard to really use effectively.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
hi guys, Im running a version of jack harpsters infantry list these days and I love it.

its basically 5x3 sagittarum, 6termies, 3x5 flame girls and either 4 wardens or 2x3 shield guard. Optimal HQ with bike cap/trajan. I only own 10 sisters of silence, therefore I only run 2x5 and a solo allarus instead of the third.

The list obliterates marines and it dominates any t4 or less army, imo. When you have to go into vehicles you can do that with rendax and if needed the termies.

yesterday, though, I got smashed by the most unlikely foe. Orks. I just couldn't handle them. Every thing was t5 or better and because the list does lack speed, I couldn't reach his back field in any reasonable way.

We played a six objective mission with opposite deployments on the deep side (not broad. idk how to explain it better in English : ) So he just bits'ed for 15 in no time and green tide for a lot too. he move blocked my termie blob with a big car and all my shooting was wounding his guys on fours or 5s.The 2x6 beast snaggas where brutal at t6 in this regard.

when he fought, Everything beat me at s6+ in melee due to goffs charging so I had to transhuman all the time, burning cp like crazy.

Also, he warghed t2 and I could only screen 2 flanks (a third unit of sisters would have allowed me to screen the center better). So he was faster, stronger, tougher AND had better shooting as his rocket cars and defkoptas and rocket boos all deal flat 3. So every four I DIDNT roll was a dead custodian.

It was brutal. all the numbers were in his favor and he had 3 times as many guys.

so my question is: do you consider orks a super bad matchup with this list or am I just playing the list wrong into it?

also, any tips on how to play without the speed of bikes? how do you guys cope with the lack of speed with custodes sans bikes in general? I run aleya and some Silly teleport tech, but its hard to really use effectively.

orks are roughly balanced vs custodes meaning the mission, the lists and the players matter a great deal. Flat 3 is a bad day for custodes for sure.

good ork lists are going to score fast early because they tend to get tabled if they dont break your back. You are right that you dont have speed in your list at all, letting him dictate the engagements. For what its worth it sounds like his list is tailored more to kill custodes - vehicle heavy ork lists do very poorly against the rest of the field. hogs aside ork melee bounces off custodes - choppas are worthless.

6 obj matches are tough for custodes too, less so for orks. leverage your obsec that orks will be lacking, put the flamers out front and use the +1S strat.

Hello golden fam.

I have an event coming up mid june and I'm thinking about the following list but would love the feedback of you fine folk.

Shield guard camp. Bikes clear and claim objectives, removing hard targets at range and charging objective holding units. Solo Allarus does what they do best.

terennNash wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
hi guys, Im running a version of jack harpsters infantry list these days and I love it.

its basically 5x3 sagittarum, 6termies, 3x5 flame girls and either 4 wardens or 2x3 shield guard. Optimal HQ with bike cap/trajan. I only own 10 sisters of silence, therefore I only run 2x5 and a solo allarus instead of the third.

The list obliterates marines and it dominates any t4 or less army, imo. When you have to go into vehicles you can do that with rendax and if needed the termies.

yesterday, though, I got smashed by the most unlikely foe. Orks. I just couldn't handle them. Every thing was t5 or better and because the list does lack speed, I couldn't reach his back field in any reasonable way.

We played a six objective mission with opposite deployments on the deep side (not broad. idk how to explain it better in English : ) So he just bits'ed for 15 in no time and green tide for a lot too. he move blocked my termie blob with a big car and all my shooting was wounding his guys on fours or 5s.The 2x6 beast snaggas where brutal at t6 in this regard.

when he fought, Everything beat me at s6+ in melee due to goffs charging so I had to transhuman all the time, burning cp like crazy.

Also, he warghed t2 and I could only screen 2 flanks (a third unit of sisters would have allowed me to screen the center better). So he was faster, stronger, tougher AND had better shooting as his rocket cars and defkoptas and rocket boos all deal flat 3. So every four I DIDNT roll was a dead custodian.

It was brutal. all the numbers were in his favor and he had 3 times as many guys.

so my question is: do you consider orks a super bad matchup with this list or am I just playing the list wrong into it?

also, any tips on how to play without the speed of bikes? how do you guys cope with the lack of speed with custodes sans bikes in general? I run aleya and some Silly teleport tech, but its hard to really use effectively.

orks are roughly balanced vs custodes meaning the mission, the lists and the players matter a great deal. Flat 3 is a bad day for custodes for sure.

good ork lists are going to score fast early because they tend to get tabled if they dont break your back. You are right that you dont have speed in your list at all, letting him dictate the engagements. For what its worth it sounds like his list is tailored more to kill custodes - vehicle heavy ork lists do very poorly against the rest of the field. hogs aside ork melee bounces off custodes - choppas are worthless.

6 obj matches are tough for custodes too, less so for orks. leverage your obsec that orks will be lacking, put the flamers out front and use the +1S strat.

Yeah, thats a great break down. Thanks.

You actually touch on a lot of my thoughts after the match.

His list was something like 3x10 grots to do actions, 2x5 commandoes, 2x6 beast snagga riders, 2x10 nobs, a battle wagon to ram up through the middle and unleash nobs, 5war bikers, 2 rocket cars, 5 koptas, 2 mekguns, 2 dino riding bosses, a truk with 10 truk bois with flamers (these seemed potent into chaff units bur didnt do a lot into chads) and some other units.

I put the witch seekers front to block the waargh and flame some stuff. they took out a blob before dying and gave me another turn to maneuver.

the 12 beast snagga riders were a threat all game but I actually shot most of them before the got in for real. couldn't stop all of them and 4 I think plus a dino rider boss got in t3 or 4. They easily killed 4 wardens. At that point he was ahead on primary and I couldn't win, so it didn't matter much. point is that I was probably right in fearing them and focusing them down. still, I didn't manage to deal with all the waves. and he scored like crazy.

since that matchup, I did modify my list to go only 4x3 sagittarum, 2x3 shield guards, 3x5 witchseekers instead of 4xwardens and 5 sagittarum squads. this helps a lot. haven't tried the ork rematch, though, but i tore through a strong necrons list yesterdays. The saggitarum firepower is just so good if you go into anything else than dam-1. preferably t5 or less, but 2 turns of rendex can often mitigate this. the silent king, for example, had to play very convoluted as those saggitarum can kill him pretty reliably in one turn if he gets aggressive.

I still fell the list has potential. It plays the mission slightly better than bike heavy lists, but you lack what they bring: anti tank and speed. I feel this build plays better into most stuff than the dreadnaught build. The 3 2 or x10 wardens is probably the best archetype right now, but I dont really like that play style. I score badly with such an army.

Whats the trick to scoring effectively with the warden build?










Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Hello golden fam.

I have an event coming up mid june and I'm thinking about the following list but would love the feedback of you fine folk.

Shield guard camp. Bikes clear and claim objectives, removing hard targets at range and charging objective holding units. Solo Allarus does what they do best.

Spoiler:

++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [97 PL, , 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Arks of Omen Compulsory Type: Fast Attack

Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Detachment Type / Shield Host: Adeptus Custodes, Shadowkeepers

Game Type: 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen

+ Stratagems +

Stratagem: Heroic Support [-1CP]: Vertus

Stratagem: Open the Vaults [-1CP]: Additional Relics

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [10 PL, -3CP, 185pts]: (Shadowkeepers): Statis Oubliette, 3. Superior Creation, 5. Radiant Mantle, Ceaseless Hunter, Misericordia, Salvo Launcher, Stratagem: Relic, Stratagem: Victor of the Blood Games, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Warlord

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [10 PL, -1CP, 180pts]: (Shadowkeepers): Lockwarden, Auric Aquilas, Misericordia, Salvo Launcher, Stratagem: The Emperor's Heroes, Tip of the Spear

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 150pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield: 3x Praesidium Shield, 3x Sentinel Blade

Custodian Guard Squad [7 PL, 150pts]
. 3x Custodian w/ Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield: 3x Praesidium Shield, 3x Sentinel Blade

+ Elites +

Allarus Custodians [3 PL, 60pts]
. Allarus w/ Guardian Spear & Misericordia

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia, 5x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia, 5x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors [20 PL, 425pts]
. 5x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 5x Interceptor Lance, 5x Misericordia, 5x Salvo Launcher

++ Total: [97 PL, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I like the idea. its like a fast, Killy and much more frail version of the warden archetype.

I havent played 3x5 but I've played a lot of 2x5 and I find them very strong as a hammer type element.

With Bobby G going to T9, I can now say I have zero idea what GW plan to do with the non-SM forces units.

I have long held the belief that GW bases the game primarily off the base stats of the Astartes. If their leader is T9, with a 3+ resurrect at 6W, I have no idea how you can balance the other units in the game? What does Mortarian become? T10? Belakor? A basic Custodian Guard? I have no idea. But if we are making the leader of the base faction the equivalent of a walking melee heavy tank, I shudder to think what you make some of the bigger fish in the pond....

Heavy tanks are moving around with t12+ these days.

I thought the Rogal Dorn was T9? Did that change?

Have you not been looking at the update articles?

Land Raiders in 10th will be T12.
Stompas are T14.
Rhinos and Carnifexes, T9.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I thought the Rogal Dorn was T9? Did that change?

In 9e yes. In 10e no.

Surely you aren't comparing 10e guillimann rules to 9e tank rules?

Stats change. 10e stompa is running around t14.

Don't look at 10e guilliman, compare to 9e tanks and decide guilliman is equal t without checking how tanks change...surely you didn't think tanks don't change? Especially when they told weeks ago that they change...

Okay, so I have been playing full infantry builds for a few weeks now. Its harpsters build with 4x sag guard, 2x shield guard, 6 allarus, 2x5 witch seekers, a solo allarus (as I dont have the third witchseeker squad), alleya, Trajan, bike cap. It plays off of Emperors Chosen and is very flexible. a true toolbox between the amalgam strat, the option to do a two turn rendax, the witchseeker strat shenans, teleport abuse and a lot of bodies you can really find a lot of answers with this list.

it lacks mobility, though, and a bit of punch into t5 or better (especially better). The bikes solve both those problems, so I cam up with this:




I haven't bought relics and traits for the bike cap here but its basically meant to be the standard build with Unstoppable destroyer, auric exemplar and maybe castellans mark.

this runs 2x4 bikes. I could run 3x3 as well. its a bit more efficient with the rerolls, but I feel 2x4 is maybe better.

any suggestions or comments?

Anyone playing dreds these days? What's that like for you?

Custodes Faction focus
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-adeptus-custodes/

Got T6 and terminators at 7, am curious to see if that means the boats go up to 8 or are given same 7 as the termies.

Very happy with the previews.
D3 axes 👍
Simple and useful katahs 👍
t7 terminators 👍
assault bolters 👍

Faction focus looks good. Karate is now less clunky and actually flexible. Did not expect T7 terminators, but I definitely won't complain. Trajann is a beast, as he should be.

The strat seems a bit too strong for 1cp...dunno maybe it's fine because you can only use it once on the same unit.

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Very happy with the previews.
D3 axes 👍

Which isn't actually an advantage

They strike less often AND have less attacks. Mathematically it's not fulfilling that role a D3 weapon should.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Very happy with the previews.
D3 axes 👍

Which isn't actually an advantage

They strike less often AND have less attacks. Mathematically it's not fulfilling that role a D3 weapon should.

Yes, the axes are a bit awkward. The spears come out ahead or do the same dmg as the axes in almost all cases.

Tiberias wrote:
Faction focus looks good. Karate is now less clunky and actually flexible. Did not expect T7 terminators, but I definitely won't complain. Trajann is a beast, as he should be.

The strat seems a bit too strong for 1cp...dunno maybe it's fine because you can only use it once on the same unit.

Yeah I'm really happy they made the Karate simplified and quite flexible to use. The Toughness boost was also a nice surprise. I don't think the Strat will be too powerful, and I think it helps us a lot given our limited number of units and how a bad roll of Saves can really mess things up a bit. We'll see once the points come out but I'm thinking we'll see substantial price hikes on most of our units.

Oh, this may have been answered before but are we going to see our FW units in the Index at launch or at a later date? The Achilles is my favorite model in the range and I'd hate to run an army without one.