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 angelofvengeance wrote:
I think the head on the Libby looks sculpted in.. Bugger. I wanted to swap it for angry beard face from the plastic PA Libby.

Even if it's sculpted to the hood (which seems unlikely looking at the detail on the sides of his head), it's still a plastic multi-part mini. Will be a relatively easy swap.
In my day, we used to have to find a willing blacksmith and trade him a flagon of goat just to swap a chainsword for a powersword.

Nocturnus wrote:
The Chaplain is very nice, the Librarian is merely okay. As others pointed out, lacks the "WOW" factor. I am most curious about the rules. Also, I noticed that the Legion Of The Damned codex is gone off the webstore. Perhaps they're adding them back into the Marine codex? While I can appreciate the frantic release schedule, it's a bit annoying that they are invalidating books so quickly. Instead of a 4 year life for a book, we're looking at about 2 years. At $60 cdn a book, how can they expect people to keep shelling out for them. Oh well, I guess there's always the "free" copies nice people post online.

While I can understand not wanting to pay for similar/the same rules every couple years, I don't really understand the complaints about it. Comparing it to other hobbies and it's quite reasonable. I mean, a $60 book to play your army is around what many people play for a new AAA video game which only lasts a couple months at most. In fact, when I compare how much I've spent on this hobby to my gaming collection (several generations of consoles + games, a decent end PC with lots of Steam games), it's actually quite cheap. Comparing to a game series, it's not uncommon for a new game to come out every couple years and be pretty much the same but with a new story, different items/maps, etc.

Requizen wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
The Chaplain is very nice, the Librarian is merely okay. As others pointed out, lacks the "WOW" factor. I am most curious about the rules. Also, I noticed that the Legion Of The Damned codex is gone off the webstore. Perhaps they're adding them back into the Marine codex? While I can appreciate the frantic release schedule, it's a bit annoying that they are invalidating books so quickly. Instead of a 4 year life for a book, we're looking at about 2 years. At $60 cdn a book, how can they expect people to keep shelling out for them. Oh well, I guess there's always the "free" copies nice people post online.

While I can understand not wanting to pay for similar/the same rules every couple years, I don't really understand the complaints about it. Comparing it to other hobbies and it's quite reasonable. I mean, a $60 book to play your army is around what many people play for a new AAA video game which only lasts a couple months at most. In fact, when I compare how much I've spent on this hobby to my gaming collection (several generations of consoles + games, a decent end PC with lots of Steam games), it's actually quite cheap. Comparing to a game series, it's not uncommon for a new game to come out every couple years and be pretty much the same but with a new story, different items/maps, etc.

Again, it's not a good comparison, comparing it to other hobbies. 40k rules don't become cheap because 'it's cheaper than collecting diamonds' or something. Compared to other wargames, 40k rules are expensive, sub par, and obsolete in a much shorter time span.

Also if you wait a year or two that AAA title will drop from $60 to $20 brand new.

GW on the other hand only increases it's prices, even on older products

Forgot to mention that the Chaplain model is slappin'.
I don't mind the Librarian. It isn't too busy, which I like.

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
Also if you wait a year or two that AAA title will drop from $60 to $20 brand new.

GW on the other hand only increases it's prices, even on older products

Only if you buy new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
The Chaplain is very nice, the Librarian is merely okay. As others pointed out, lacks the "WOW" factor. I am most curious about the rules. Also, I noticed that the Legion Of The Damned codex is gone off the webstore. Perhaps they're adding them back into the Marine codex? While I can appreciate the frantic release schedule, it's a bit annoying that they are invalidating books so quickly. Instead of a 4 year life for a book, we're looking at about 2 years. At $60 cdn a book, how can they expect people to keep shelling out for them. Oh well, I guess there's always the "free" copies nice people post online.

While I can understand not wanting to pay for similar/the same rules every couple years, I don't really understand the complaints about it. Comparing it to other hobbies and it's quite reasonable. I mean, a $60 book to play your army is around what many people play for a new AAA video game which only lasts a couple months at most. In fact, when I compare how much I've spent on this hobby to my gaming collection (several generations of consoles + games, a decent end PC with lots of Steam games), it's actually quite cheap. Comparing to a game series, it's not uncommon for a new game to come out every couple years and be pretty much the same but with a new story, different items/maps, etc.

My brother was the videogame king....a new 50 dollar game would last him 3 days.

I finally got him hooked on sports games, where you can play season after season after season.....

Requizen wrote:

While I can understand not wanting to pay for similar/the same rules every couple years, I don't really understand the complaints about it. Comparing it to other hobbies and it's quite reasonable. I mean, a $60 book to play your army is around what many people play for a new AAA video game which only lasts a couple months at most. In fact, when I compare how much I've spent on this hobby to my gaming collection (several generations of consoles + games, a decent end PC with lots of Steam games), it's actually quite cheap. Comparing to a game series, it's not uncommon for a new game to come out every couple years and be pretty much the same but with a new story, different items/maps, etc.

Thing is, video games don't become obsolete when a new version comes out. I may be in a minority, but I still play Halo Reach as often as H4 or H2A, I still play Arkham City as much as Arkham Origins. They are ultimately different products and different experiences. On the other hand, once this new codex comes out with mostly recycled contents and changes that could fit on an A4 sheet, the previous edition is obsolete as anything other than a paperweight.

This is why I'm against the Codex Cycle as a whole. Other companies mostly only sell you a new edition when they've made changes that aim to improve the game, but GW will sell you another codex whether they need to/whether it improves anything or not. The current book is perfectly serviceable, and this new one may not be any better as a product for all we know, and yet we are still expected to buy it because they say so.

The Interrogator Chaplain looks stunning...but shouldn't he be on a bike or have a jump pack ? he looks pointless on foot...I'm no chaplain or DA expert but I'm not seeing his usefulness here...

It bugs me how the new Space Marine characters shoulder pads are touching their faces/face protection. How do they lift their arms?

I think it would be way cooler if they updated Space marines so that they look like they can move properly. They seem way to squished and as a result their armor looks more ridiculous.

It's an old joke that if Marines did jumping jacks their heads would explode...

General Hobbs wrote:

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
Also if you wait a year or two that AAA title will drop from $60 to $20 brand new.

GW on the other hand only increases it's prices, even on older products

Only if you buy new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
The Chaplain is very nice, the Librarian is merely okay. As others pointed out, lacks the "WOW" factor. I am most curious about the rules. Also, I noticed that the Legion Of The Damned codex is gone off the webstore. Perhaps they're adding them back into the Marine codex? While I can appreciate the frantic release schedule, it's a bit annoying that they are invalidating books so quickly. Instead of a 4 year life for a book, we're looking at about 2 years. At $60 cdn a book, how can they expect people to keep shelling out for them. Oh well, I guess there's always the "free" copies nice people post online.

While I can understand not wanting to pay for similar/the same rules every couple years, I don't really understand the complaints about it. Comparing it to other hobbies and it's quite reasonable. I mean, a $60 book to play your army is around what many people play for a new AAA video game which only lasts a couple months at most. In fact, when I compare how much I've spent on this hobby to my gaming collection (several generations of consoles + games, a decent end PC with lots of Steam games), it's actually quite cheap. Comparing to a game series, it's not uncommon for a new game to come out every couple years and be pretty much the same but with a new story, different items/maps, etc.

My brother was the videogame king....a new 50 dollar game would last him 3 days.

I finally got him hooked on sports games, where you can play season after season after season.....

This is only really relevant if you actually choose to play in GW stores or FLGS, in which case I personally don't and am very happy not to. 1 FLGS and GW shops have strict code for language and so on, I can say %^&# all in my own house or with adult friends without some sniveling weasel annoying me or soccer moms worrying about little johnny being around adults. 2 Far less gamer funk. 3 setting up a local gaming "club" or play house allows you to monitor the kinds of individuals you might be forced to play against ( like "that guy" ) and have a much more entertaining atmosphere to ENJOY the games.

60 cdn for a codex is absurd and I've disliked paying it ever time, then I look at the ( where they ninja it on us due to new printer in house ) 50 cdn softcovers and I say, that 60 was not so bad vs a piece of crap softcover that will fall apart and get dinged up, when you really think about it what would you rather do ? pay 60 for a hardcover which is 10 more and will last for years unless your a tool about it while actually looking decent, or paying 50 for an inferior product in quality, in which case you are better probably downloading to use at home, although I personally enjoy the hardcovers as they are a throw back to the hardcovers of GW in the golden days just with a horrible price, but like my warhammer armies 3rd ed is falling apart the pages due to the binding actually being WORSE than the new hardcovers.

You guys should see some of the softcovers that are printed for normal books today, the paper is like onion bible paper and some of those prices are similar to GW. I enjoy reading and have library of even some books that go up in value due to their nature and limited prints and I can honestly say as much as I hate GW's prices for codex and army books, the quality itself is in many cases quite high vs reading books that I seriously question the pubisher and printer "meeting the minimum quality level" and their prices where I'm worried about tearing the pages! GW actually uses fairly thick paper for their hardcovers.

Lastly other than if you are playing "that guy" cheeseballs who constantly want to make competitive lists that YOU guys all feel you HAVE to outdo why are you even bothering to keep buying edition after edition ? unless you play in GW stores or have all decided "we MUST play that new edition every few years" then a lot of this is meaningless, I have my 8th ed collection done and it will last me for years along with my 2500-3k fb armies with multiple options, GW won't be getting my money for 9th not even for the starter after their antics with the end times ( and I don't mean the story I mean killing off years worth of armies we all own ), and I totally skipped 5th and 6th 40k just getting back into it now to finish off my ork army, my rather dirt cheap DA army I just started with DV and multiple troops from ebay and sold 2x copies of the rules by undercutting sellers by $5 and buying the much nicer hc version from part of those sales. I think I will be sticking with 7th for many years and so will my local gaming group.

Keep in mind guys GW for years existed as a mail order company for north america, and there is still plenty of places that lack official GW stores that have plenty of gamers looking to have fun vs always buying the newest crap they sell.

General Hobbs wrote:

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
Also if you wait a year or two that AAA title will drop from $60 to $20 brand new.

GW on the other hand only increases it's prices, even on older products

Only if you buy new.

I agree most things in life are cheaper when bought used. However, the point that I was trying to illustrate is that retail prices drop for video games and retail prices for GW goes up.

Video games also enjoy a massive used market allowing for even more savings as well.

Requizen wrote:
While I can understand not wanting to pay for similar/the same rules every couple years, I don't really understand the complaints about it.

You don't understand why people would be less happy to have to pay $60 every two years to keep their army current instead of $30 every 4-8 years?

Seriously?


Regardless of whether or not the book price is reasonable (and, for me, the switch to hardcover and full-colour was not a sufficient trade-off for the huge jump in price, since I didn't want either of those things to begin with) speeding up the release schedule is more painful on the wallet than a slower release schedule, and it creates extra uncertainty since where previously you were reasonably assured of getting at least 4-5 years out of any given book, we're now left with absolutely no idea how quickly anything we buy might be invalidated.

Even just publishing a release forecast would alleviate that somewhat... then at least you would know when you hand over the cash that the book is likely to be replaced in 6 months.



Don't get me wrong, I like having new, shiny stuff as much as the next guy... But for me, the codex system was getting unsustainable as it was (since up until 6th edition I bought all of them, and had done since 2nd edition), and speeding up the process and making the books more expensive just resulted in me stopping buying them.

 MrFlutterPie wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
Also if you wait a year or two that AAA title will drop from $60 to $20 brand new.

GW on the other hand only increases it's prices, even on older products

Only if you buy new.

I agree most things in life are cheaper when bought used. However, the point that I was trying to illustrate is that retail prices drop for video games and retail prices for GW goes up.

Video games also enjoy a massive used market allowing for even more savings as well.

Because after a while people stop buying those videogames. Even new players may not want them (new). Whereas new players and veterans starting a new army who want new Marines...why should GW lower prices on products people want? Same thing with cars etc.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

Requizen wrote:
W
Don't get me wrong, I like having new, shiny stuff as much as the next guy... But for me, the codex system was getting unsustainable as it was (since up until 6th edition I bought all of them, and had done since 2nd edition), and speeding up the process and making the books more expensive just resulted in me stopping buying them.

Would love to see how much in sales they lost with the higher prices. I too bought most of the books. Now, just the main army I play, and then for reference I find free copies. Indeed, I went through 2-3 3rd and 4th edition copies of the Marine, SW and Templar book because someone at a store walked off with them. Now, I'm less likely to leave them or the rulebook just laying around.

I dunno about the Librarian. I still think one of the beast TDA Librarians models is the one from the most recent two editions of Space Hulk, even without him being in an action pose. The last version that was in metal/now finecast always looked a bit too bulky for me, even in TDA.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I dunno about the Librarian. I still think one of the beast TDA Librarians models is the one from the most recent two editions of Space Hulk, even without him being in an action pose. The last version that was in metal/now finecast always looked a bit too bulky for me, even in TDA.

The blood angels librarian is very similar to the Calistarius model that comes with SH.

Shoot I would rather pay for a new book every 2 years then have a book so completely behind the times that it is almost unplayable for 2 of its 4 year span because of rules changes or other things that happen. There is a new trend in army design that adds a lot of customization options to my army? Gimme gimme. My here is some new equipment options that mean I mig be to use more of my models or have more diversity? Gimme Gimme. Deathwatch supplement? TAKE ALL MY MONEY

I don't know about all of you, but I spend hours just building lists, looking at composition, trying to find combos. Even the rumors of units get me thinking about lists and how would I work them in. One of the things that adds value to me is the extra time, extra things that are part of the hobby. Buying, building, and painting is just one aspect. There is the socializing, the strategy sessions, the online bitching and counter bitching, the game playing itself, the creative avenue inspired by the game, the novels and background. All of it combines together to add additional value for me. So while you can just compare the prices sure and one is found wanting compared to the other in that particular realm it is not an accurate assessment for everyone.

I tried war machine, love the models what little lore I read was quite good. However the hobby size was lacking for me trying to deal with all those metal models with little horns that kept getting lost...the list building was a lot of fun until I realized how actually limiting it was to build a list and have a good game out of it. Also I couldn't play the way I wanted to and so o dropped it. I have considered getting back into it since I love the Haley models, however the lack of ability to customize is one of the things that drove me away in the first place. I can't modify a menoth jack to look like a cryx corrupted monstrosity and have people want to play against it, so on and so forth. War machine did not have the additional value beyond the models that made me want to continue playing.

As to the librarian of the head is detachable I am a fan, if not I don't like it. It's dangerous out there but a god damn helmet on.

 Leth wrote:
Shoot I would rather pay for a new book every 2 years then have a book so completely behind the times that it is almost unplayable for 2 of its 4 year span because of rules changes or other things that happen.

Exactly the reason I would rather see GW abandon the Codex system completely, and just release the army lists alongside the core rules, ala 3rd edition.

Then they could use the time in between editions to share out model releases equally, and introduce new units with dataslate-style rules offerings or White Dwarf.

 insaniak wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Shoot I would rather pay for a new book every 2 years then have a book so completely behind the times that it is almost unplayable for 2 of its 4 year span because of rules changes or other things that happen.

Exactly the reason I would rather see GW abandon the Codex system completely, and just release the army lists alongside the core rules, ala 3rd edition.

Then they could use the time in between editions to share out model releases equally, and introduce new units with dataslate-style rules offerings or White Dwarf.

I throughly agree, I have gone all digital(family share for some sweet sweet savings) and so a lot of the new context doesn't bother me. Hell the iPad has paid for itself at this point.

The issue I think is that they are stuck in this hybrid print/digital age where they probably want to go all digital but enough of the client base won't use it, meaning they have to keep things in print. However if they update the digital the people with print copies get up in arms and complain since they fixed something or changed something In the digital version. Personally I am loving all of these data slate formations. None of them outside the tau one have really been over powering but they offer a fun way to build an alternate list and give you some cool options and rules for doing so.

I mean if it was all digital then it would be easy to make small unit tweeks or points cost changes/updates(which they used to do back in the day). But until we get to that point they are kinda stuck in the cycle of "it's this price in this book, so we have to keep it as standard as possible for similar units." I mean I hope that they errata the blood Angels to get grav cannons, it seems wrong that they and the wolves were excluded simply because the kit was not out and now since it is the dev kit for all chapters they should be able to use what they get.

A company who won't even release a FAQ doesn't strike me as someone who will use the benefits of a digital format to enrich the play experience of their customers.

IronBars wrote:
Will these upgrade packs be web only or also available in store? Can't really see the difference anymore on the gw website.

In stores for a one shot deal. Then off to direct.

 mikhaila wrote:

IronBars wrote:
Will these upgrade packs be web only or also available in store? Can't really see the difference anymore on the gw website.

In stores for a one shot deal. Then off to direct.

Is this confirmed?

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
I agree most things in life are cheaper when bought used. However, the point that I was trying to illustrate is that retail prices drop for video games and retail prices for GW goes up.

Video games also enjoy a massive used market allowing for even more savings as well.

I think that video games are probably the worst analogy to use if you're trying to argue "reasonable prices" or anything like that. Video games have almost universally moved to a model where it's base game + DLC and either single transfer/no transfer accounts or digital distribution. Don't even get me started on in-game purchases. Video game manufacturers would like nothing better than killing the used game market entirely, and make every effort to drain the possible revenue from a title or franchise to the last possible penny a player would pay. If there were blood in a rock, they'd get it out

Once video games get old (and nobody buys them), the prices plummet -- even when you buy them "new". The problem is, by then, there are newer, better games out...

The other thing that isn't really a good comparison is that the lifespan of even the best video games is much, much shorter than the lifespan of a good cast. There are lots of models in the 10-15 year range that are still very relevant, but you can't say that about any computer games. You'll be lucky if you can even get them loaded.

I think that the topic of "how fast should GW release rule changes" is a fascinating one.

I'm a lot like Leth in this regard. If **my** faction feels old, take my bloody money and give me a new codex already. I spent countless hours building lists, and trying things out, even playing 40k with myself to see if some hair-brained idea might have merit for the next time I get together with friends (or to see if I should buy/paint a bunch of models that I otherwise wouldn't). So 2 years does not feel at all short for me.

On the other hand, I agree with Insaniak's position, too, that a great solution is to just publish army lists sans all the other stuff, which could go into fluff books that you might or might not buy. I don't think there's a hope in hell GW will do that though.

What I'd really like to see -- that I think is possible -- is a rules subscription, where you pay $20 / month, and you get access to all the rulebooks digitally for as long as you subscribe. I think that's more money than most people spend on codices anyhow. Perhaps a lower amount, too, whatever works (there could be a tiered service where you get a smaller number of books available for less money, too).

Even so, GW must be careful how often it changes its rules, because otherwise it will upset some people whose armies are suddenly less competitive.

I also agree, Insaniak, that a roadmap of sorts would be very helpful. I don't think it's necessary to nail down dates, but just knowing SM is coming in Q2 would be great.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

IronBars wrote:
Will these upgrade packs be web only or also available in store? Can't really see the difference anymore on the gw website.

In stores for a one shot deal. Then off to direct.

Is this confirmed?

It's generally fairly safe to assume mikhaila knows what he's talking about, yes.

 insaniak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

IronBars wrote:
Will these upgrade packs be web only or also available in store? Can't really see the difference anymore on the gw website.

In stores for a one shot deal. Then off to direct.

Is this confirmed?

It's generally fairly safe to assume mikhaila knows what he's talking about, yes.

Fair enough. I guess I will have to buy the two BA ones I ever foresee myself needing. Since BA have a Tactical Squad, I only would ever need one for my Assault Squads and Vanguard Veterans (I have the OLD shoulder pads...two weeks before these were announced, but I want the new ones).

 mikhaila wrote:

IronBars wrote:
Will these upgrade packs be web only or also available in store? Can't really see the difference anymore on the gw website.

In stores for a one shot deal. Then off to direct.

Is that the case with all the direct stuff when it is released?

WD #70 (with the Assault Squad on the cover) only mentions the transfers being online only. The upgrade sprues appear to be in-store. At least for a limited time.

I remember the days when a Battleforce was a larger one-time investment with the promise of better value. These ones are ridiculous! Saving maybe 15% off buying it all separately? Brutal!

As someone else said, the Ravenwing Command Squad is heinously overpriced as it is. $20 Cdn difference over the normal Ravenwing bikers? Yeesh...

I just read the White Dwarf post on the website, and saw:

There are new weapons in the box, too, such as the eviscerator wielded by this Sergeant. It’s not just a weapon for officers, though – any Space Marine in the squad can carry this tank-shredding blade.

Oh yes. Yessss.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I just read the White Dwarf post on the website, and saw:

There are new weapons in the box, too, such as the eviscerator wielded by this Sergeant. It’s not just a weapon for officers, though – any Space Marine in the squad can carry this tank-shredding blade.

Oh yes. Yessss.

I am afraid they are probably going to cost like 30 pts or more since they are pretty close to Thunder Hammers (they trade Concussive for Armourbane and Specialist Weapon v. Two-Handed is a wash). Still, I would rather have Death Company with Evicerators than Power Fists or Thunder Hammers.

 warboss wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

IronBars wrote:
Will these upgrade packs be web only or also available in store? Can't really see the difference anymore on the gw website.

In stores for a one shot deal. Then off to direct.

Is that the case with all the direct stuff when it is released?

More accurately, we suspect it will become web-only. Which is different than direct, since our local stores can still order it (and at least in Canada, give you a discount), but takes a long time to arrive. But who knows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I just read the White Dwarf post on the website, and saw:

There are new weapons in the box, too, such as the eviscerator wielded by this Sergeant. It’s not just a weapon for officers, though – any Space Marine in the squad can carry this tank-shredding blade.

Oh yes. Yessss.

I am afraid they are probably going to cost like 30 pts or more since they are pretty close to Thunder Hammers (they trade Concussive for Armourbane and Specialist Weapon v. Two-Handed is a wash). Still, I would rather have Death Company with Evicerators than Power Fists or Thunder Hammers.

Sadly... who knows how long it will take before DC get the Eviscerators :(