Definitely Not a Leaked 6th Rulebook, Don't Even Bother Looking

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**SoulGazer**

Maelstrom808 wrote:There is noooooo trigger in the Defensive Fire rule to allow you to use it.

There is no mention of Overwatch in the Defensive Fire rules text block(pg. 77). Why do you think that is if Overwatch is so necessary to the rule?

**Eilif**

Blood of Kittens is saying this is a fake.

Anyone have any evidence of this?

**Maelstrom808**

creeping-deth87 wrote:K, someone needs to explain to me why the prevailing opinion is that defensive fire cannot be used every time you get assaulted.

Looking at the rulebook, defensive fire is an action, not a USR. On p. 56 of the PDF, under 'actions in the enemy turn', it states you can defensive fire as long as you meet certain criteria. Nowhere does it say you require Overwatch.

To me, it sounds like Overwatch is simply a more effective Defensive Fire since it not only allows you to fire at a unit that assaults you, but you can fire if they do so much as move within 12".

So where are people getting you NEED Overwatch to fire at assaulting units?

ACTIONS IN THE ENEMY TURN
Normally units only act in their own turn. In some
situations like suddenly appearing reinforcements
or a tank that tries to steamroll the warriors, a
squad is forced to react quickly. To represent this,
units can perform the following actions in an
enemy turn if and only if the rules explicitly allow
it.

This means you need a trigger to allow the action. There is no trigger listed in the rules for Defensive Fire. The triggers are listed in other rules.

**pretre**

Eilif wrote:Blood of Kittens is saying this is a fake.

Anyone have any evidence of this?

Evidence that BoK says it is fake? Yeah, it's right on their webpage.

Evidence that is a fake? Go ahead and read through the 50+ pages of this thread and you tell me.

**SoulGazer**

Maelstrom808 wrote:This means you need a trigger to allow the action. There is no trigger listed in the rules for Defensive Fire. The triggers are listed in other rules.

I'm fairly certain you're misreading this. There are several people who can see what I'm seeing.

"If the responding unit was assaulted by the target unit and it was not locked in combat previously, it can shoot at the target unit."

I don't see Overwatch mentioned here.

**tetrisphreak**

Because the rules must explicitly allow a defensive fire action -generic response to being assaulted is not one of those explicit allowances. Overwatch is, and defensive fire further stipulates that contacted models may shoot even though they are locked. Without overwatch's explicit permission to shoot out of phase the defensive fire action may not be taken.

**Swara**

SoulGazer wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:This means you need a trigger to allow the action. There is no trigger listed in the rules for Defensive Fire. The triggers are listed in other rules.

I'm fairly certain you're misreading this. There are several people who can see what I'm seeing.

I'm sure if this is the real deal then the wording will be changed (well I would hope I suppose) so that it's more clear.

**creeping-deth87**

Maelstrom808 wrote:
creeping-deth87 wrote:K, someone needs to explain to me why the prevailing opinion is that defensive fire cannot be used every time you get assaulted.

Looking at the rulebook, defensive fire is an action, not a USR. On p. 56 of the PDF, under 'actions in the enemy turn', it states you can defensive fire as long as you meet certain criteria. Nowhere does it say you require Overwatch.

To me, it sounds like Overwatch is simply a more effective Defensive Fire since it not only allows you to fire at a unit that assaults you, but you can fire if they do so much as move within 12".

So where are people getting you NEED Overwatch to fire at assaulting units?

ACTIONS IN THE ENEMY TURN
Normally units only act in their own turn. In some
situations like suddenly appearing reinforcements
or a tank that tries to steamroll the warriors, a
squad is forced to react quickly. To represent this,
units can perform the following actions in an
enemy turn if and only if the rules explicitly allow
it.

This means you need a trigger to allow the action. There is no trigger listed in the rules for Defensive Fire. The triggers are listed in other rules.

P. 56 specifically states defensive fire is permitted when the unit is assaulted, how is that NOT a trigger?

**Dribble Joy**

creeping-deth87 wrote:So where are people getting you NEED Overwatch to fire at assaulting units?

Defensive Fire is an action that is triggered by certain events. It is not triggered by people assaulting you.

The bullet-pointed paragraph in the DF rules is an exception to allow you to perform DF when you can't perform shooting actions - it is not a trigger in itself.

Triggers for DF:
Overwatch
DS within 12"
Trapped!
Death or Glory

**Maelstrom808**

SoulGazer wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:There is noooooo trigger in the Defensive Fire rule to allow you to use it.

There is no mention of Overwatch in the Defensive Fire rules text block(pg. 77). Why do you think that is if Overwatch is so necessary to the rule?

It has to have a trigger to be able to be used. The section on actions in the enemy turn tells you this. There is no trigger within DF itself. The only triggers are overwatch and deepstriking within critical range.

**SoulGazer**

Swara wrote:
SoulGazer wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:This means you need a trigger to allow the action. There is no trigger listed in the rules for Defensive Fire. The triggers are listed in other rules.

I'm fairly certain you're misreading this. There are several people who can see what I'm seeing.

I'm sure if this is the real deal then the wording will be changed (well I would hope I suppose) so that it's more clear.

Many of the other rules in the book are much more clear, so yes, this could be a case of a rule not being too clear by simple oversight. It happens. Almost as if they expected it to happen and wanted us to find stuff like that....

/tinfoilhat

**tetrisphreak**

The bullet points on p77 (pdf 56) are listing exceptions to normal shooting rules, NOT triggers for defensive fire! You can't stand and shoot every assault unit that comes your way unless you have Overwatch or another explicit trigger. Stop cherry picking lines of text...aka RTFM.

**Thimn**

I'm in the needs to be triggered camp for you to get defensive fire, just the way it reads to me. So all in all its not going to come up to often, and the vast majority of that time it will be because of deep strikers.

**Wrath**

creeping-deth87 wrote:K, someone needs to explain to me why the prevailing opinion is that defensive fire cannot be used every time you get assaulted.

Looking at the rulebook, defensive fire is an action, not a USR. On p. 56 of the PDF, under 'actions in the enemy turn', it states you can defensive fire as long as you meet certain criteria. Nowhere does it say you require Overwatch.

To me, it sounds like Overwatch is simply a more effective Defensive Fire since it not only allows you to fire at a unit that assaults you, but you can fire if they do so much as move within 12".

So where are people getting you NEED Overwatch to fire at assaulting units?

Because it has no trigger of it's own. Overwatch, DS reaction, and Trapped are the triggers. These rules say "use Def-fire in given situation". The section on Def-fire just details what happens when triggered and provided a list of exceptions to the shooting rules . Nothing more.

<Damn! double ninja>

**creeping-deth87**

Dribble Joy wrote:
creeping-deth87 wrote:So where are people getting you NEED Overwatch to fire at assaulting units?

Defensive Fire is an action that is triggered by certain events. It is not triggered by people assaulting you.

The bullet-pointed paragraph in the DF rules is an exception to allow you to perform DF when you can't perform shooting actions - it is not a trigger in itself.

Triggers for DF:
Overwatch
DS within 12"
Trapped!
Death or Glory

But it IS triggered by people assaulting you. P. 56 of the PDF allows you to do it if you get assaulted. "If the responding unit was assaulted by the target unit and it was not locked in combat previously, it can shoot at the target unit." Notice how it says NOTHING about overwatch.

**Maelstrom808**

SoulGazer wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:This means you need a trigger to allow the action. There is no trigger listed in the rules for Defensive Fire. The triggers are listed in other rules.

I'm fairly certain you're misreading this. There are several people who can see what I'm seeing.

"If the responding unit was assaulted by the target unit and it was not locked in combat previously, it can shoot at the target unit."

I don't see Overwatch mentioned here.

This:

Dribble Joy wrote:
creeping-deth87 wrote:So where are people getting you NEED Overwatch to fire at assaulting units?

Defensive Fire is an action that is triggered by certain events. It is not triggered by people assaulting you.

The bullet-pointed paragraph in the DF rules is an exception to allow you to perform DF when you can't perform shooting actions - it is not a trigger in itself.

Triggers for DF:
Overwatch
DS within 12"
Trapped!
Death or Glory

And the section you quoted is preceded by:

The rules for Shooting actions apply with the
following exceptions:

Meaning that there are situations where you are given an event that triggers defensive fire, which is a shooting action, but that event does not allow a shooting action. That quoted section is outlining situations where you can ignore the normal shooting rules, so that you may use DF when it is triggered by one of the events Dribble listed.

**Dribble Joy**

creeping-deth87 wrote:But it IS triggered by people assaulting you. P. 56 of the PDF allows you to do it if you get assaulted. "If the responding unit was assaulted by the target unit and it was not locked in combat previously, it can shoot at the target unit." Notice how it says NOTHING about overwatch.

tetrisphreak wrote:The bullet points on p77 (pdf 56) are listing exceptions to normal shooting rules, NOT triggers for defensive fire! You can't stand and shoot every assault unit that comes your way unless you have Overwatch or another explicit trigger. Stop cherry picking lines of text...aka RTFM.

I'm seriously trying to say what I want to say in a way that says the thing I have been saying without repeating myself....

**SoulGazer**

Dribble Joy wrote:
creeping-deth87 wrote:But it IS triggered by people assaulting you. P. 56 of the PDF allows you to do it if you get assaulted. "If the responding unit was assaulted by the target unit and it was not locked in combat previously, it can shoot at the target unit." Notice how it says NOTHING about overwatch.

tetrisphreak wrote:The bullet points on p77 (pdf 56) are listing exceptions to normal shooting rules, NOT triggers for defensive fire! You can't stand and shoot every assault unit that comes your way unless you have Overwatch or another explicit trigger. Stop cherry picking lines of text...aka RTFM.

I'm seriously trying to say what I want to say in a way that says the thing I have been saying without repeating myself....

Meh, both positions have been stated repeatedly. Hopefully, if these are real rules, GW will see threads like these and clean up some rules accordingly to avoid future fuss about it.

It does rather feel like we're doing beta testing, though, so I'm enjoying this.

**Maelstrom808**

Dribble Joy wrote:
creeping-deth87 wrote:But it IS triggered by people assaulting you. P. 56 of the PDF allows you to do it if you get assaulted. "If the responding unit was assaulted by the target unit and it was not locked in combat previously, it can shoot at the target unit." Notice how it says NOTHING about overwatch.

tetrisphreak wrote:The bullet points on p77 (pdf 56) are listing exceptions to normal shooting rules, NOT triggers for defensive fire! You can't stand and shoot every assault unit that comes your way unless you have Overwatch or another explicit trigger. Stop cherry picking lines of text...aka RTFM.

I'm seriously trying to say what I want to say in a way that says the thing I have been saying without repeating myself....

I know dude....I know...

**Pony_law**

Only on Dakka would people argue about the meaning of a rule that they have never used and may or may not be a future rule.

**Rented Tritium**

Pony_law wrote:Only on Dakka would people argue about the meaning of a rule that they have never used and may or may not be a future rule.

Demonstrably untrue. People do this in every rumor mill for every game.

**Maelstrom808**

Pony_law wrote:Only on Dakka would people argue about the meaning of a rule that they have never used and may or may not be a future rule.

Heh, believe me, I haven't missed that. There is a good chance though that I may end up using these rules within my group if they turn out to be very different from actual 6th edition, so I am making sure mainly that I have a clear understanding for them. I have pretty well kept it out of other sections of the site though. It's a bit too much of a strech to start putting this stuff in YMDC and such.

**Bold or Stupid**

Pony_law wrote:Only on Dakka would people argue about the meaning of a rule that they have never used and may or may not be a future rule.

We're arguing a rule in a book that isn't out yet, surely this unclear and misleading writing is the proof we need that this is real!!!!

**Khornate25**

So I just briefly took a look on this, seems good to me if these are the future new rules.

**Dytalus**

Even after just a brief looking over of these rules, I have to say I'm excited. Looks like there's a lot more tactical options involved in playing. Some things concern me, but you can't be happy about everything.

**Red Corsair**

I have to say that given these new rules for snipers and deep strike, Death Marks make a lot more sense.

**Huoshini**

So if an enemy unit deepstrikes within 12" of one of my units, I may shoot them, right?

What if an enemy deepstriked within 12" of muliples of my units. Can I shoot at the deepstriking unti with all of them?

If multiple enemy units deepstrike within 12" of a unit, can that unit shoot at each one of them?

**Maelstrom808**

Huoshini wrote:So if an enemy unit deepstrikes within 12" of one of my units, I may shoot them, right?

- yes, although some things like drop pods and such can disallow it.

What if an enemy deepstriked within 12" of muliples of my units. Can I shoot at the deepstriking unti with all of them?

- same as above

If multiple enemy units deepstrike within 12" of a unit, can that unit shoot at each one of them?

- My gut says yes, although there is some possible funkyness with shooting actions and such. I think the intent is yes though.

**Dribble Joy**

Huoshini wrote:So if an enemy unit deepstrikes within 12" of one of my units, I may shoot them, right?

Yes.

What if an enemy deepstriked within 12" of muliples of my units. Can I shoot at the deepstriking unti with all of them?

Yes.

If multiple enemy units deepstrike within 12" of a unit, can that unit shoot at each one of them?

No, if one or more units DSs within 12", you may perform a DF action, so if three pop up, you only fire at one of them. This makes strike formations (see the reserves section) a good idea.

Also (on an unrelated note), if a unit is shaken it cannot perform Support actions. Look Out Sergeant is a Support action, so if you can pin them they can't screen the unit behind

.
Actual tactics? Combined Arms? A reason not to just spam a certain type of unit? What will they think of next?

**ChocolateGork**

Huoshini wrote:So if an enemy unit deepstrikes within 12" of one of my units, I may shoot them, right?

What if an enemy deepstriked within 12" of muliples of my units. Can I shoot at the deepstriking unti with all of them?

If multiple enemy units deepstrike within 12" of a unit, can that unit shoot at each one of them?

Yes to all. (unless the multiple units are in a strike force).

Gun-line's will be interweaving and castling their models for sure (unless of course there is a threat from missiles.