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Either it's a fake and someone really put a lot of hours on this or it's legit. Please let it be fake. Not to keen on terminator lists just dropping right next to me and assaulting that same turn. Oh and the missile launcher nerf would really kill my space wolves lists

2 things there - deep striking in critical range is dangerous because you have to scatter, and you can only engage on a deep strike so that's a 6" move for tactical or assault terminators. IF you expect such a tactic you simply wrap your units with transports so that the terminators can't get to your good stuff. Plus you'll bring more plasmaguns than before, so you'll get free AP2 shots on the terminators thanks to the Defensive Fire rule...and if they 'mishap' they become stunned which means they basically can't do anything that turn at all and count as stationary when you fire at them (thus making all your shots hit on 1 better than usual). No, i don't think you'll auto-lose to deep striking terminators if you prepare for them properly with sound tactics.

As to the missile launcher nerf? Nerf? Long fangs can split fire and will hit tanks on 2+ (since they are 'massive'). How is that a nerf? If you fire frags at a horde you roll to hit and only scatter 2x the miss on a d6...so 2" or 4" max scatter vs hordes with a blast marker...again, not a nerf.

Brother SRM wrote:

BDJV wrote:FWIW, Tasty Taste is now claiming the rules are Fake! http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/01/12/network-news-it-is-a-fake/

I still don't buy it is a fake.

When someone who I know is in the know, like Harry or Reds8n says it's a fake, then I'll buy that it's a fake. He says he heard from people who aren't his usual sources, so I'm pretty happy to keep believing.

Didn't Reds8n say that it was fake? Or that we shouldn't be getting our hopes up or something? I dunno, I'll have to find the post.

Reds8n GW were sending notices to stores that it was fake, kinda like how they denied a new Space Hulk existed and then announced Space Hulk.

Black Dragon wrote:FAKE...I could make this just using word.

Oh yeah? Well I could do it in Notepad... so there!!!

Seriously, what difference does the application make?

I have started a poll to guage folks opinions here on Dakka, for those interested in 40K general.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/423049.page

puma713 wrote:

Didn't Reds8n say that it was fake? Or that we shouldn't be getting our hopes up or something? I dunno, I'll have to find the post.

He said it was fake because GW said its fake. Just like Space Hulk.

So either it is fake and they are just making us aware of it or its legit but they are saying its fake, ala space hulk.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Reds8n GW were sending notices to stores that it was fake, kinda like how they denied a new Space Hulk existed and then announced Space Hulk.

Yeah, but he also mentioned the fact that he wasn't putting weight on the rumors. Here it is:

reds8n wrote:Stores in the UK have received/are about to get an email stating thiat these rules are not genuine and are not anything to do with GW.

.. given the fact that these rules would largely render much of FW's work irrelevant and OOD , and given how successful this arm of GW is, I wouod be inclined to write this off as the proverbial storm in a teacup.

The lack of action from GW legal persuades me of this further.

Robbietobbie wrote: Oh and the missile launcher nerf would really kill my space wolves lists

Most people would be 200% ok with this though what nerf you are referring to I'm not quite sure.

tetrisphreak wrote:

As to the missile launcher nerf? Nerf? Long fangs can split fire and will hit tanks on 2+ (since they are 'massive'). How is that a nerf? If you fire frags at a horde you roll to hit and only scatter 2x the miss on a d6...so 2" or 4" max scatter vs hordes with a blast marker...again, not a nerf.

I call not being able to pen anything higher than av11 a pretty big nerf

edit: for people that missed it, krak is str6 ap 4 and frag str 3 ap 6 in the new rulebook

puma713 wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

BDJV wrote:FWIW, Tasty Taste is now claiming the rules are Fake! http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/01/12/network-news-it-is-a-fake/

I still don't buy it is a fake.

When someone who I know is in the know, like Harry or Reds8n says it's a fake, then I'll buy that it's a fake. He says he heard from people who aren't his usual sources, so I'm pretty happy to keep believing.

Didn't Reds8n say that it was fake? Or that we shouldn't be getting our hopes up or something? I dunno, I'll have to find the post.

Reds8n didn't support it... anyone seen yakface? No?

The document is a nice read.
The thread was a bit of a challenge, as I found it rather late ( work. ) and adding 10-15 pages in a few hours

It could be an early playtest document, but it also contains things like weapons with a point cost in a Rulebook without a army list in sight.
( page 90 , Selection of weapons )

1hadhq wrote:
It could be an early playtest document, but it also contains things like weapons with a point cost in a Rulebook without a army list in sight.
( page 90 , Selection of weapons )

As pointed out earlier, those are upgrade costs for the Weathered Bastion.

"The bastion can replace the
flamers with weapons that are listed both in the
Wargear section of this book and in the summary
of the army’s Codex. All flamers are replaced at
once, using the point cost listed next to the
weapon on page 90 and following pages. If the
weapon is listed without a point cost, it cannot be
taken for the bastion."

Robbietobbie wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

As to the missile launcher nerf? Nerf? Long fangs can split fire and will hit tanks on 2+ (since they are 'massive'). How is that a nerf? If you fire frags at a horde you roll to hit and only scatter 2x the miss on a d6...so 2" or 4" max scatter vs hordes with a blast marker...again, not a nerf.

I call not being able to pen anything higher than av11 a pretty big nerf

edit: for people that missed it, krak is str6 ap 4 and frag str 3 ap 6 in the new rulebook

Those are grenade profiles. You still use the weapon profiles in the codex when firing your weapons.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Black Dragon wrote:FAKE...I could make this just using word.

Oh yeah? Well I could do it in Notepad... so there!!!

Seriously, what difference does the application make?

Actually, quite a bit. I doubt you could make this in Word, and know absolutely that you could not in notepad. But file formats is kind of my area of expertise.

Robbietobbie wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

As to the missile launcher nerf? Nerf? Long fangs can split fire and will hit tanks on 2+ (since they are 'massive'). How is that a nerf? If you fire frags at a horde you roll to hit and only scatter 2x the miss on a d6...so 2" or 4" max scatter vs hordes with a blast marker...again, not a nerf.

I call not being able to pen anything higher than av11 a pretty big nerf

edit: for people that missed it, krak is str6 ap 4 and frag str 3 ap 6 in the new rulebook

You're looking at Grenade Launchers. Your Long Fangs should be more abusive than ever with the new rules system.

wow i hope you're right. I just noticed that they're assault btw, so I think I might have been a bit early calling this was a nerf. Always expect the worst

I've seen a few people mention critical hits in their experience in trying this rule set out - though I'm still unsure as to what actually causes critical hits. Is it a weapon quality - can only certain weapons case it, like Directed Wounds? Or is there always a condition that may trigger them?

Kharrak wrote:I've seen a few people mention critical hits in their experience in trying this rule set out - though I'm still unsure as to what actually causes critical hits. Is it a weapon quality - can only certain weapons case it, like Directed Wounds?

Deep strike mishaps, exploding vehicles and some other stuff. Not a weapon quality that I am aware of.

Critical hits are caused by ramming, no retreat, dangerous terrain tests, and being inside an exploded vehicle. With the exception to ramming and no retreat, they're basically roll a dice, if you roll a 1 take an invuln save or be wounded for each model in the unit that has to test (all done in one roll, not model-per-model like DT tests are now). No retreat is a critical hit for every casualty you lost by (like the Ld modifier is now)...but you can avoid those critical hits if you pass a Ld check with the same modifier - so fearless units have at least a shot to stay stuck in with no damage. A ram causes an automatic critical hit, which is a penetrating hit on a vehicle, with modifiers to the damage roll depending on whether or not it was a tank that did the ramming as well as the difference in Armor values...

They're not across the board OMG i'm losing models, but very well implemented.
It makes sense that being in an exploding vehicle could be quite deadly, even if it is only a 1/6 chance to die.

Ah, I see, thanks!

...huh... Interesting about how ramming works against vehicles now - both take a critical hit, but have modifiers depending on their armour value. I'm assuming then that a Deffrolla just inflicts d6 str10 hits in addition to the single critical hit from ramming, and NOT d6+1 critical hits

It's nice to know that driving over enemy units can cause some nice damage now, though.

Yeah it's d6 s10 hits, plus the critical hit with the appropriate modifiers. It's actually one of the examples used in the rules if i remember correctly.

Anyone else notice that Carnifexes can Ram also?

Yes - not great vs tanks but you can run over infantry (provided they can't move 6" out of the way) and really steamroll them down. - Or force their movement such that another unit will be in charge range to attack them better. Plus it forces a pinning test which can cause the unit to be shaken, slowing them down and reducing their shooting to just 1 weapon/model.

tetrisphreak wrote:Yeah it's d6 s10 hits, plus the critical hit with the appropriate modifiers. It's actually one of the examples used in the rules if i remember correctly.

Which leads me to an interesting realization. 'Ard Case now suddenly becomes a very interesting upgrade in keeping ones battlewagon a healthy ramming unit with the additional -1 modifier for being a tank WITHOUT open topped.

For something like the battlewagon, it makes ramming weaker vehicles absolutely devestating to their target with certainly that the battlewagon will be hardly effected, but ramming sturdier vehicles is much more risky than before.

Kharrak wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Yeah it's d6 s10 hits, plus the critical hit with the appropriate modifiers. It's actually one of the examples used in the rules if i remember correctly.

Which leads me to an interesting realization. 'Ard Case now suddenly becomes a very interesting upgrade in keeping ones battlewagon a healthy ramming unit with the additional -1 modifier for being a tank WITHOUT open topped.

Interestingly enough they don't mention the -1 tank modifier, but rather a -1 from the fact that a ram is a spread-out collision and not precise damage.

Only tanks can ram, which matters i guess. They can ram non-tank models, however. The description uses a leman russ ramming a rhino, so it gets -4 on it's return damage roll (14 is 3 higher than 11, so -3, plus the generic ram -1 = -4 modifier) while the rhino's damage roll is only -1 (ram modifier only).

Until such time that the document is made official and updated etc I will be going explicitly by that scenario and just do a generic -1 for the tank shock plus the difference in AV on the damage roll. I think it's the best way to play it while we're playtesting this ruleset.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Blackgaze wrote:power weapons = 5+ inv parry save in combat?

Then warscythe Lychguard might actually be worth taking over shields sometimes. As well as lords having this as well.

More importantly

>Tyranid boneswords
>warriors and hive tyrant

Only if they have no other special rules, so hyperphase swords gives you a 5++ parry. Warscythes do not since they already give you +2 S and the 2d6 AP.

Ah....see that's interesting. In the Necron codex, it states that armour saves are not allowed against a Warscythe. I wondered why they didn't just call a Warscythe a Power Weapon. If this is a real 6E book, we now know that there is an additional benefit to Power Weapons in the future. Hence, the distiction. Not sure if it's real or not, but I want to believe it!!!

Kharrak wrote:I've seen a few people mention critical hits in their experience in trying this rule set out - though I'm still unsure as to what actually causes critical hits. Is it a weapon quality - can only certain weapons case it, like Directed Wounds? Or is there always a condition that may trigger them?

Also 'look out sarge' causes them.

Ok, I see the confusion here:

A Defensive Fire action may be taken if

A) An enemy unit DSes within 12" of your unit.

B) Your unit is assaulted. Defensive Fire represents the assaulted unit firing on the attackers before melee begins.

C) Your unit has the Overwatch special rule, any enemy unit that ends a move within 12" can be shot.

Overwatch makes it so you can perform a Defensive Fire action even if you are not assaulted. If an enemy unit ends a move action within 12" of you, you can shoot it on the enemy turn. Any unit that gets assaulted can fire on the assaulting unit no matter what(unless they're already in CC.) Overwatch is just an icing on the cake type rule.

Madmax1 wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Blackgaze wrote:power weapons = 5+ inv parry save in combat?

Then warscythe Lychguard might actually be worth taking over shields sometimes. As well as lords having this as well.

More importantly

>Tyranid boneswords
>warriors and hive tyrant

Only if they have no other special rules, so hyperphase swords gives you a 5++ parry. Warscythes do not since they already give you +2 S and the 2d6 AP.

Ah....see that's interesting. In the Necron codex, it states that armour saves are not allowed against a Warscythe. I wondered why they didn't just call a Warscythe a Power Weapon. If this is a real 6E book, we now know that there is an additional benefit to Power Weapons in the future. Hence, the distiction. Not sure if it's real or not, but I want to believe it!!!

It wouldn't have mattered if they did call it a power weapon though. The fact that it has additional rules is what keeps it from getting the 5++ parry save.

K, someone needs to explain to me why the prevailing opinion is that defensive fire cannot be used every time you get assaulted.

Looking at the rulebook, defensive fire is an action, not a USR. On p. 56 of the PDF, under 'actions in the enemy turn', it states you can defensive fire as long as you meet certain criteria. Nowhere does it say you require Overwatch.

To me, it sounds like Overwatch is simply a more effective Defensive Fire since it not only allows you to fire at a unit that assaults you, but you can fire if they do so much as move within 12".

So where are people getting you NEED Overwatch to fire at assaulting units?

SoulGazer wrote:Ok, I see the confusion here:

A Defensive Fire action may be taken if

A) An enemy unit DSes within 12" of your unit.

B) Your unit is assaulted. Defensive Fire represents the assaulted unit firing on the attackers before melee begins. <- Wrong!

C) Your unit has the Overwatch special rule, any enemy unit that ends a move within 12" can be shot. <- This is what allows you to use DF if assaulted

Overwatch makes it so you can perform a Defensive Fire action even if you are not assaulted. If an enemy unit ends a move action within 12" of you, you can shoot it. Any unit that gets assaulted can fire on the assaulting unit no matter what(unless they're already in CC.) Overwatch is just an icing on the cake type rule.

NO! nononononono....

There is noooooo trigger in the Defensive Fire rule to allow you to use it.