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I was going to write a longer post on the issue but I would be repeating things other people already wrote down. Suffice to say that I find appalling the POV from some posters riding the high horses of PC and indignation. This is a game for God´s sake if I saw a guy deploying a Nazi look alike IG army I would think that he needs a gf not that he is a neo nazi.

A second point I´d like to make is that in most cases people don´t bother to research and tend to support their positions with half-truths or convinently forget little tibits or history that would invalidate their arguments and we can point posters on both sides of this thread as guilty of this. Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

M.

I used to be one of those people who are enthralled by the Nazi symbol and the regime it represents. I was immature and I guess had some authority issues during those times. It’s quite interesting that the Nazi regime is actually about total control and I was rebelling against control. In those days I actually purchased replica Nazi uniform and other paraphernalia. My personal experience may not reflect others here. Now, I have changed and learned through many years of experience that the Nazi represented a regime that is terrible in nature. Unless one is recreating historical games such as FOW or some sort of historical reenactment these symbols are better left at home. I still have those items but you would not see me wear it today.

Some of you say you really like the uniform and it’s not about the symbol. Well, I present to you that the Chinese up till the late 1930’s were using German uniforms and equipment for their army. The only exception was that they had leggings instead of jackboots. They used the same M1935 helmets, field caps, and Gewehr 98 as the German army. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Revolutionary_Army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-trained_divisions_of_the_National_Revolutionary_Army I wonder who would want to model their WH40K army based on the terribly ineffective army of China during that time?

On another note, Hitler used to refer to the Japanese are the Yellow Aryans. I wonder what the neo-nazi of today consider the Japanese?

Miguelsan wrote:A second point I´d like to make is that in most cases people don´t bother to research and tend to support their positions with half-truths or convinently forget little tibits or history that would invalidate their arguments and we can point posters on both sides of this thread as guilty of this. Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

M.

For example: someone from a place where school history textbooks are censored to downplay the countries involvement and acts in WWII lecturing about censorship. See: Ienaga Saburo

Ahtman wrote:

Miguelsan wrote:A second point I´d like to make is that in most cases people don´t bother to research and tend to support their positions with half-truths or convinently forget little tibits or history that would invalidate their arguments and we can point posters on both sides of this thread as guilty of this. Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

M.

For example: someone from a place where school history textbooks are censored to downplay the countries involvement and acts in WWII lecturing about censorship. See: Ienaga Saburo

Is that kind of a personal attack Ahtman? If so aim better I might be living in Japan but I´m far from being japanese. See you just proved my point

M.

Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

I seem to have missed where anyone was trying to say that these armies should be censored or banned.

grotblaster wrote:While there can certainly be a valid discussion about when a line a is crossed between historical representation (fine in my book) and offensive iconography (not ok in my book), the complete denial that the latter is possible is nonsense.
My next IG army will be painted like soldiers from the confederate south (historical). My conscripts will be klansmen, my vehicles will have nooses hanging from them, and I'll add details reminiscent of current white power movements. If anyone says anything, I'll just label them as a PC spanker.
I'm not equating GMM's army with the one above , although I agree it's questionable. I'm merely pointing out that some iconography, even on toy models, is and should be universally reviled.

It's certainly a sticky issue, because whilst I can take any number of Nazi themed miniatures, and actually appreciate them, I think I'd be slightly offended by that army. I wouldn't shun or attack the owner / painter, but I'd be a bit uneasy. Strange eh? I can't really explain it other than to admit I like the aesthetic of WW2 era Germans, Nazis, and Russians too.

btw GW used to produce awesome "Klan" miniatures, complete with hoods, masks, nooses etc, in fact they're some of my all time favourites.

stonefox wrote:

Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

I seem to have missed where anyone was trying to say that these armies should be censored or banned.

I would tend to think all the talk of "If someone brought this into my gamestore I would tell them to leave" is the censorship/ban he is getting at.

Does anybody remember the Television series "V"?

I do not think 'Nazi ' imagery is good in any/way/shape acceptable, personally.

Why not try something like this? Or is it offensive?

*sigh*- it is a very subjective discussion I suppose.

stonefox wrote: I seem to have missed where anyone was trying to say that these armies should be censored or banned.

Really? It was in the third post of this thread.

jfrazell wrote:The moment you pull out a mini with a Swastika or Red Star is the moment I go have a nice discussion with the store manager to help insure you'll never play in that store again.

Jazz is for Losers wrote:

btw GW used to produce awesome "Klan" miniatures, complete with hoods, masks, nooses etc, in fact they're some of my all time favourites.

Ya I'm thinking of making a whole lot of those guys complete with nooses as an IG army. The "other" folk can be conscripts. It'll be pretty awesome.

This guy will be in my command squad. "You tell 'em, son!"

glowgos wrote:The Nazis are clearly a horrendous and morally disgusting party and place in history.

But if i were to make a modern U.S. army themed force would that offend someone. Because after all they are involved in a illegal war that has destroyed a functioning economic state and directly or indirectly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Also crops of heroin in the Afghanistan are at record highs not to metion how the islamic extremists in somilia were intialy funded by the US when they had to kick out the "reds."

The british empire redcoat themed army didn't get much heat either or was the Empire Ok?

The British Empire had plenty of faults however it was less not OK than other empires, and managed to do a lot of good amongst the harm.

For example: established successful democracies in Canada, Australia and India, surpressed evil practices such as slavery, suttee and thuggee, and managed to get out of most of the remaining colonies after WW2 without allowing them to descend into civil war or dictatorships. Obviously there are failures and abuses to be set against that record.

(I'm English so call me biaised.)

Grignard wrote:

See, and I could take offense to that. As a Southron, I find your association between white supremacy and the Confederate States of America blatantly unfair and irrelevant. That is the problem with all these value judgements. Contrary to how comfortable it makes you feel, these feelings are not universal, and the people who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid, misguided, or racist.

Well here is a good example of the way people perceive things differently. Here in Europe, rightly or wrongly, confederate imagery is associated with racism. When I first went to America, I was surprised by people displaying that kind of thing quite casually and in a non racist way. We take symbolism in quite different ways, but certain symbols can evoke very strong responses in certain people.

The Swastika has, in the west, become intrically linked with what happened in Europe in the thirties and forties and for that reason it is utterly taboo. It is just something that people do not like to see and do not like put in front of them. It doesn't have that meaning in the East, though it is important to point out that the Swastikas used over there do look quite different from the German Swastikas.

In the context of the army that has sparked this controversy. Well if someone walked into a store with an imperial guard army painted up to look like a Nazi army complete with Swastikas, I would presume they were either absolutely nuts or else doing it for a sick joke. Either way I would probably find it pretty funny. I wouldn't recommend someone try it in a place like Germany though.

This particular army isn't such an army though, it is an army evoking a whole variety of images that have strong symbolic meaning to Neo-Nazis. All that is really missing is the 14/88s. It is pretty impossible given the combination that the painter does not know what all the imagery means. That does not mean he is a Neo-Nazi himself but he certainly went for the theme. I don't find it particularly offensive, this kind of thing is done in the music I listen to all the time, but lets not be in any doubt that taking that army out in a lot of circumstances is going to povoke quite a reaction.

glowgos wrote:The Nazis are clearly a horrendous and morally disgusting party and place in history.

But if i were to make a modern U.S. army themed force would that offend someone. Because after all they are involved in a illegal war that has destroyed a functioning economic state and directly or indirectly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Also crops of heroin in the Afghanistan are at record highs not to metion how the islamic extremists in somilia were intialy funded by the US when they had to kick out the "reds."

The british empire redcoat themed army didn't get much heat either or was the Empire Ok?

You forget, the US nor the British Empire massacred 6 million Jews, and millions of Russians and others as part of their agenda.

Ahtman wrote:

Miguelsan wrote:A second point I´d like to make is that in most cases people don´t bother to research and tend to support their positions with half-truths or convinently forget little tibits or history that would invalidate their arguments and we can point posters on both sides of this thread as guilty of this. Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

M.

For example: someone from a place where school history textbooks are censored to downplay the countries involvement and acts in WWII lecturing about censorship. See: Ienaga Saburo

That is all you can do Ahtman. You provide nothing constructive to the debate. You were just chomping at the bit ( Thats a dumb southern redneck expression, as you can point out if you wish) to launch a personal attack against him because of his nationality. You would have used the supposed( from the point of view of China) Japanese textbook censoring argument long before. You waited until your moment to try to ruin someone's day. Oh wait, edit: Where you just assumed his nationality was.

Allowing ideas that are not acceptable in an enlightened society is a huge part of what caused Germany to fall into darkness for so very long.

So of course people have learned to speak up when someone repeats the same rhetoric.

Being a miniatures game doesn't mean you get a free pass.

Demogorgon wrote:

Well here is a good example of the way people perceive things differently. Here in Europe, rightly or wrongly, confederate imagery is associated with racism. When I first went to America, I was surprised by people displaying that kind of thing quite casually and in a non racist way. We take symbolism in quite different ways, but certain symbols can evoke very strong responses in certain people.

The Swastika has, in the west, become intrically linked with what happened in Europe in the thirties and forties and for that reason it is utterly taboo. It is just something that people do not like to see and do not like put in front of them. It doesn't have that meaning in the East, though it is important to point out that the Swastikas used over there do look quite different from the German Swastikas.

In the context of the army that has sparked this controversy. Well if someone walked into a store with an imperial guard army painted up to look like a Nazi army complete with Swastikas, I would presume they were either absolutely nuts or else doing it for a sick joke. Either way I would probably find it pretty funny. I wouldn't recommend someone try it in a place like Germany though.

This particular army isn't such an army though, it is an army evoking a whole variety of images that have strong symbolic meaning to Neo-Nazis. All that is really missing is the 14/88s. It is pretty impossible given the combination that the painter does not know what all the imagery means. That does not mean he is a Neo-Nazi himself but he certainly went for the theme. I don't find it particularly offensive, this kind of thing is done in the music I listen to all the time, but lets not be in any doubt that taking that army out in a lot of circumstances is going to povoke quite a reaction.

That is what I'm getting at. Ultimately all these arguments are subjective and meaningless.

Stelek wrote:Allowing ideas that are not acceptable in an enlightened society is a huge part of what caused Germany to fall into darkness for so very long.

So of course people have learned to speak up when someone repeats the same rhetoric.

Being a miniatures game doesn't mean you get a free pass.

Well, that is the way the cookie crumbles. There are plenty of people whom I actively dislike because of their views, but I have to put up with them

No, no they’re not subjective and meaningless.

While government censorship and suppression of free speech are not acceptable, private individuals (like Yak) have every right to restrict expression on/using their property. And sometimes such community sanctions are entirely appropriate responses to disgusting/dangerous/harmful expressions.

I’ve very proud of the Dakka community because of this thread. It’s been a great discussion, and I hope educational for most of us about other people’s thoughts, opinions, and perspectives on these issues. IMO the best response to "bad speech" (whether it be hateful, stupid, or whatever) is "good speech" (counter arguments, criticism, etc).

For people who did not recognize the combination of neo-nazi (not just historical nazi) imagery and iconography that the army in question used, maybe this is a bit of an eye-opener. I think it’s a gorgeous army, but (as others have already eloquently explained) the combination of images makes me distinctly uncomfortable and suspicious of the owner’s beliefs.

Yeah, that's kinda what "free society"means.

As for an "enlightened society", as there's never actually been one, I don't know what you mean by the reference.

I would assume an enlightened society is one where all ideas were tried, and the best ones floated to the top and won the war of ideas based on their merit, not via censorship.

Oh and by censorship, I mean, not free to express ones views, no matter how oderous a person may find it on a personal level. Holding beliefs you don't agree with is not a crime.

Sadly, Ki, it's what happens when enough of a vocal minority holds those beliefs that scares the normally silent majority.

People will act now, because years ago no one did and where that road took civilization nobody wants to go again.

Enlightened...there are many enlightened societies in the world today. Sadly, most are western in nature but I'm not sure who to blame for that. All of them are imperfect, of course. I'd rather have a shattered window to let the light in than no light at all.

People will act now? We act by not allowing people into high office who hold tghose beliefs, however, we don't stop them from holding those beliefs. That's an awfully fine line to tread, I know, but getting caught up in "the thought police" (you know, the "other" name for being PC) is a bad idea too.

None of us (that have posted thus far) say that they actually know the person in question. To paint them as as a nazi/neo-nazi racist bigot based upon a few pictures within his 7 posts thus far is using to broad a stroke. And it's wrong.

Mannahnin wrote:No, no they’re not subjective and meaningless.

While government censorship and suppression of free speech are not acceptable, private individuals (like Yak) have every right to restrict expression on/using their property. And sometimes such community sanctions are entirely appropriate responses to disgusting/dangerous/harmful expressions.

I’ve very proud of the Dakka community because of this thread. It’s been a great discussion, and I hope educational for most of us about other people’s thoughts, opinions, and perspectives on these issues. IMO the best response to "bad speech" (whether it be hateful, stupid, or whatever) is "good speech" (counter arguments, criticism, etc).

For people who did not recognize the combination of neo-nazi (not just historical nazi) imagery and iconography that the army in question used, maybe this is a bit of an eye-opener. I think it’s a gorgeous army, but (as others have already eloquently explained) the combination of images makes me distinctly uncomfortable and suspicious of the owner’s beliefs.

While I agree with you in ideals I really don't think it is true. I really don't think there is a true objective way to evaluate any sort of morality. All you can do is hold yourself to an internal code of ethics. But yes, the community does ultimately have a right to not accept that, in spite of what I may think. I think it would be a shame to censor such artwork from this site though, even if you have to include a disclaimer or something.

I have no right to be suspicious of his beliefs, as I have no proof of anything other than his interest in German and mythological imagery. Furthermore, regardless, I dont think I can argue that any belief of mine is better than his.

Stelek wrote: I'd rather have a shattered window to let the light in than no light at all.

That sounds somewhat like an ends justify the means statement. And while I can see that point of view, thats the kind of person I am. I just want you to be aware of the implications of ends justify means.

If you put pictures of the SS up, you're going to draw a response.

Just the way it is.

It isn't appropriate for this forum, nor for 40k.

Grignard, that's a sad misapprehension of what Stelek just posted.

He was saying that the fact that we can’t achieve perfection doesn’t invalidate the attempt to get as close as we can. No society is truly enlightened (intact window perfectly open), but it’s certainly better to get as close as we can, even if it’s as close as a shattered window is to that perfect window. It’s still letting light in to banish (as much as we can of) the darkness.

Stelek wrote:If you put pictures of the SS up, you're going to draw a response.

Just the way it is.

It isn't appropriate for this forum, nor for 40k.

But these weren't pictures of the SS, they were miniatures painted using a broad range of German and mythological themes.

Since I posted what they were, I stand by what I said.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters2.htm

It's the poster all the way at the bottom.

Is it clearer now? Do you "get it"?

Stelek wrote:Since I posted what they were, I stand by what I said.

Alright, then I just disagree with you on this one.

So you've closed your eyes and started shouting na na na.

Good luck in life.

Stelek wrote:So you've closed your eyes and started shouting na na na.

Good luck in life.

No, Ive politely agreed to disagree. Since we don't see eye to eye on the fundamental root of the issue, it is impossible for us to come to any conclusion about the artists intent. In other words, it provoked different feelings in each of us. You might say our perception of reality is different. I'm willing to listen to anything you say, but I'm just not going to agree with you on this one.