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Stelek wrote:Since I posted what they were, I stand by what I said.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters2.htm

It's the poster all the way at the bottom.

Is it clearer now? Do you "get it"?

I get it. It is possible the artist used a WWII propaganda poster for inspiration. Do we have to paint nice things? Where we disagree is the implications of this.

I have no right to be suspicious of his beliefs, as I have no proof of anything other than his interest in German and mythological imagery. Furthermore, regardless, I dont think I can argue that any belief of mine is better than his.

The way you’re bending over backwards to defend someone’s right to be offensive or express himself in a way that hints at a hateful ideology is kind of amazing to me, and I’m a free speech nut.

Of COURSE you have every right to be suspicious of someone who does something suspicious. You don’t have to have proof to suspect someone. You should certainly have proof before fully condemning someone, but that’s a different matter. Do a little research on neo-nazism and the white supremacy movement (though I recommend NOT doing it while on a work computer). Note the high degree of interest both in nazi Germany and in Norse mythology and imagery.

Furthermore, regardless, I dont think I can argue that any belief of mine is better than his.

The moral relativism here is astounding to me, and I’m also a liberal progressive. You have every right to say that your ideology is morally superior to a racist, fascist ideology, which is what those images are representing.

You know, its beside the point we're arguing about, but I'm going to be fair enough to mention that while I love the artists work and that I simply think it is the best cloth work I have ever seen, and that I do not think this guy is a Nazi, I did not want to pull it up at work. Just food for thought there.

Ya guys. Agree to disagree was pretty much the root of this. Originally I did attempt to call out gmm and I would've stopped replying if he just said "ya man these could be taken to look like nazis" but then he refused and denied all nazi leanings. We PMed each other and I told him that it was his free speech right to do it, as well as my free speech right to interpret what he said in a public forum as well as call him out, but he told me not to bother his thread. You can see his last PM in my sig as well. I probably wouldn't play this guy if I saw his army though.

I probably wouldn't have spent so much effort typing stuff up if he just said "Yeah, I can see how they look like nazis but I didn't mean them to be that way" rather than "No, they're just a bunch of ideas I liked put together but I swear I'm not a nazi. One of my friends is a Jew and he's fine with it." It's the adamant refusal that got me suspicious.

No Jew would be "fine" with SS Propoganda posters or their 'interpretations'.

It is also worth mentioning that people have been quick to deride is artistic choices but only Yakface has brought up the fact that he was false flagged and treated so. That put me squarely in his camp regardless of whether he's a Satanist, Nazi, racist, or even a Commie .

Stelek wrote:No Jew would be "fine" with SS Propoganda posters or their 'interpretations'.

They have a right not to be fine, thats ok. Plenty of people have expressed that here

Grignard wrote:

grotblaster wrote:While there can certainly be a valid discussion about when a line a is crossed between historical representation (fine in my book) and offensive iconography (not ok in my book), the complete denial that the latter is possible is nonsense.
My next IG army will be painted like soldiers from the confederate south (historical). My conscripts will be klansmen, my vehicles will have nooses hanging from them, and I'll add details reminiscent of current white power movements. If anyone says anything, I'll just label them as a PC spanker.
I'm not equating GMM's army with the one above , although I agree it's questionable. I'm merely pointing out that some iconography, even on toy models, is and should be universally reviled.

See, and I could take offense to that. As a Southron, I find your association between white supremacy and the Confederate States of America blatantly unfair and irrelevant. That is the problem with all these value judgements. Contrary to how comfortable it makes you feel, these feelings are not universal, and the people who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid, misguided, or racist.

You miss my point. If you had an IG army painted as confederate soldiers complete with the confederate flag throughout, I would find it of questionable taste. I'd ask you about it, and if you tell me it's about southern pride and has nothing to do with race I'd probably be ok with it. If it were in a historical game, I wouldn't bat an eye.

If you took that same army and added klansmen, nooses, and white power symbols, it moves from a historical representation to an offensive, racially charged statement. You'd have every right to make that army, but as soon as it comes into a store, the owner and everyone there has a right to react.

grotblaster wrote:

Grignard wrote:

grotblaster wrote:While there can certainly be a valid discussion about when a line a is crossed between historical representation (fine in my book) and offensive iconography (not ok in my book), the complete denial that the latter is possible is nonsense.
My next IG army will be painted like soldiers from the confederate south (historical). My conscripts will be klansmen, my vehicles will have nooses hanging from them, and I'll add details reminiscent of current white power movements. If anyone says anything, I'll just label them as a PC spanker.
I'm not equating GMM's army with the one above , although I agree it's questionable. I'm merely pointing out that some iconography, even on toy models, is and should be universally reviled.

See, and I could take offense to that. As a Southron, I find your association between white supremacy and the Confederate States of America blatantly unfair and irrelevant. That is the problem with all these value judgements. Contrary to how comfortable it makes you feel, these feelings are not universal, and the people who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid, misguided, or racist.

You miss my point. If you had an IG army painted as confederate soldiers complete with the confederate flag throughout, I would find it of questionable taste. I'd ask you about it, and if you tell me it's about southern pride and has nothing to do with race I'd probably be ok with it. If it were in a historical game, I wouldn't bat an eye.

If you took that same army and added klansmen, nooses, and white power symbols, it moves from a historical representation to an offensive, racially charged statement. You'd have every right to make that army, but as soon as it comes into a store, the owner and everyone there has a right to react.

Oh yes, the last statement would probably be in bad taste. It was my misunderstanding to equate that.

You know, I did some hunting online, and I found a gem of a ww2 poster.



Oh so painfully close to the 2 you find so objectionable.

He flat out said that he finds old propaganda posters interesting. He put a 2 german, and 1 soviet on his models. Would you guys be pitching a fit if THIS were on there? If so, then why? If not, then why not?

Huh? As repeatedly noted, it’s because of what the symbol represents. Stelek pointed out that the particular poster the artist was referencing was a recruiting poster for the SS.

Being interested in old propaganda posters could be perfectly innocent. They’re visually striking and can make great artistic inspiration and reference. Red and black are great colors, and catch the eye. The Battle of Britain image of Germany bombing London looks awesome on the dozers. Thor and Norse mythology are perfectly valid sources of inspiration. Any one or two of these things might be coincidence and perfectly fine. But it’s the COMBINATION of elements which closely resembles the combination of elements used and enjoyed by modern neo-nazis and white supremacists. This is what makes people suspicious and uncomfortable.

What does it mean that I'd defend to the death this guy's right to paint whatever he wants, but I wouldn't be seen in public with him?

That you're a true believer in personal rights. He has the right to paint, say, and believe anything he wants, and by extension, offend anyone he wants. You don't happen to agree with it, and chose to excersize your right to not be around him.

I have to say that this whole discussion has been completely unfair to the original poster. You guys are freaking out and condemning a person for his choice of influences for painting. Yes he may have made some bad choices, but who are we to go on a crusade against this? I bet not one of you are completely free from any type of racism, sexism, or bigotry. All of us should look inward and correct our own personal problems before we go out and condemn others for something trivial like painting. I myself probably have things i need to fix (i'd like to think i don't, but i know i am not perfect) and so do all of you.

C'mon guys, he used an iron cross, which has long German traditions from long before the Nazis ever rose to power. Red is a great color and thus no problem. Thor is a RED HAIRED god, not blond! so he never really fit the Nazi theme anyway, just the modern depiction has forgotten this (his Thor looks like the one from the justice league). The other parts of the iconography look perfectly like something that the imperium would use so fits the fluff perfectly.

The only problems i could see anyone gripe about are the one SS looking poster on the basilisk and the one headed eagle on the flags. but the imperium tends to change iconography from time to time based on who is in and out of favor (different high lords or terra or chapters of marines) so thats not really the problem. The fact that this kid used Nazi influences is not a problem. The problem would be if he was a Nazi, but as all of you have said no one knows this guys, so leave him alone. All you crusaders need to step down a second and stop trying to rid the world of all its problems. It's not the purpose of the forum.

Anyone who can do conversions that good, paint that well and research reference material so competently isn't just a kid.

The stuff he picked does make a strong theme, consistent with the 40K background, and is iconographic. The Nazis were good at design and make a strong historical reference point.

That said, I don't see a WH40K army being a good recruiting tool for neo-Nazism so I am inclined to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume he just picked an unpopular theme for the army.

Maybe someone will do a paedophile army so people can start complaining about that instead.

It would certainly be a way to bring back Squats. Just take off their beards and then put a Commisar in the unit wearing a baseball cap and reading a newspaper.

As the OP who kicked this whole thread off, I want to thank everyone for their reasoned replies. I'm very glad to see that there is a certain amount of sensitivity towards glorifying RL / historical fascist / totalitarian states. I'm also glad to see the maturity of the responders and the moderators.

In terms of evilness, I would disagree that the Nazis were the worst ever, more that they ended up on the wrong side of history. IMO, that singular honor belongs to the Soviets for the sheer scope, duration, and pervasiveness of their brutality. That said, Japan is a very close second, particularly as they continue to censor and deny the truth of the atrocities committed. As for the US / UK, despite the fashion of the liberals, if anything, we're more like the pre-fascist Weimar Republic, what with our fascination with and acquiescence to pervasive government surveillance and data collection. Besides, if we want to discuss oppression and brutality, Israel should be high on anyone's list. This is purely my opinion, and I will not choose to debate it in this thread - if someone wants to discuss the relative evils of the world, let them start their own thread.

Personally, I don't much like *either* the Kriegmarines or the GMM AC. To me, GMM's Armoured Company is especially offensive precisely because it is so well-executed - it is like something that Josef Goebbels (Minister of Propoganda) himself might have commissioned. As they currently sit, the Kriegemarines are far more amateurish, but very nearly as offensive.

I agree that a historicals modeler or game has more freedom to utilize Nazi imagery, if done from a proper historicals perspective. So the Late War use of full Swastika aerial recognition flags would be gratuitous, as would the substitution of Swastikas for crosses.

I think that the Imperium is a dystopian, fascist, totalitarian state that draws upon the worst of human history as its inspiration. Soviet-style Kommissars, thought-monitoring Inquisititors, and such really cannot be interpreted as otherwise.

For me, the usage of any black insignia on white circle centered in a red field is a visual code for a Nazi flag. Whether it is the triskele, Eisenkruze, or Swastika proper makes relatively little diffrence - especially if tou have to get close to distinguish the difference. It is no accident that pseudo-Nazis (e.g. "V", ) and Neo-Nazis use this as their baseline insignia. Even translated over to crossed hammers on a black field ("the Wall" movie, Pink Floyd), the stark red-white-black insigina produces a similar, visceral reaction - and has subsequently been adopted by the Hammerskin Nation. As Goebbels recognized and showed, imagery is a powerful tool that is not to be taken lightly, and treading too close is a problem.

wow, that's a lot of thread here guys.

personally, I have a similar attachment to this topic as magickalmemorie does; my grandmother suffered under the bombing of our hometown, my great-grandfather was killed in a camp because of his beliefs and political work.
Personally, I'm rather sensitive when it comes to that topic because of my family history. To me, "real" Neo-Nazis (of which we haven't really got any here in Freiburg, thank goodness), and with real, I mean dumb people who support the ideas of the old regime, are pretty much, and I rarely use that word, Scum. And incredibly stupid.

Now, on topic of said armies:
1.)GMMStudios' armored company is a great piece of work. the paintjob's awesome and the conversions are great, I think we can all agree to that. Now, the obvious problems with this army are the paintings....Until I read this thread, I actually didn't know that Thor is used as a symbol for the neo-nazi movement. I only look at those pictures of Thor and actually think of comics because, call me arogant if you like, I mostly know Thor from comics. I am well aware that he is mythological figure, but I never imagined him to be a symbol for neo-nazis. although I have heard of the wolf-thing before.
So what bothers me with this army aren't the Thor pictures, nor the other paintings on the dozorblades. What bothers me are the banners. I usually don't have as much of a problem with iron crosses as I have with swastikas, but those propaganda posterpaintings are....disturbing. I don't think I could get over it and actually play against that army, which is a bit of a shame, since the rest is really awesome. But the "Bruderschaft des Blutes" stuff and all that, would make me kinda....nervous, while playing against it.

2.) the Kriegmarines,
the cross-symbol ( which is how called exactly? I don't know) whis is painted all over those models actually doesn't really bother me that much, since I don't asociate it with the nazi movement as much as I would with a swastika. actually, I don't think that symbol is much more political incorrect on a 40k model than the double-headed eagle. Altough, the reason why this wouldn't bother that much while playing against it, is that is isn't quite as well executed as the armored company.


P.S.: just to get my shot at nerdity today: @Bastirous, Thor is a meber of marvels Avengers, not DCs Justice League.

I think what alot of people are missing that BAD GUYS with COOL UNIFIORMS can be copied without any moral implecations by those doing it.

How many Star Wars Geeks own Stormtrooper, Darth Vader, or Mandalorian Battle Armor ? The Ninja Craze in the 80s ? Anyone who wants to be Samurai ?

I can understand if YOU have a hard on against Nazis because of their history of Genocide, etc... but to the younger generation they are those guys in Wolfenstein, or those dudes Captain America kicks the snot out of. They simply don't have that boogeyman or taboo status with everyone.

I don't see anyone throwing a Tizzy over Redemptionist models in Necromunda. You either play them or you don't. I have one firend that catergorically refuses to play them becuase he thinks they look like Klansmen, but never once has he harrassed anyone who did.

Just a note on the television series V: It's very much an
allegory against fascism and the power of propaganda
and such. Good series.

While I was looking at the propaganda pictures that were linked to earlier I found this beauty...



I wasn't thinking of man hate when I looked at it.

On an related note what does everyone think of this use of Nazi imagery?



Or Marilyn Manson's use of Fascist imagery, such as the BFP's logo?


Marilyn Manson album?


British Fascist Party?

Just out of interest, look what pops up when you Google 'Thor' and 'Nazi'. I realise it's a wiki but there's no wiki without fire (probably).

I can understand if YOU have a hard on against Nazis because of their history of Genocide, etc... but to the younger generation they are those guys in Wolfenstein, or those dudes Captain America kicks the snot out of. They simply don't have that boogeyman or taboo status with everyone.

very good point

My take, with examples:

1. The trouble with using Nazi iconography is that some people get upset. However anyone can get annoyed over anything, its as much the responsibility for people to be tolerant as much as it is for others to be sensitive.

- Ok, but why? A lot of this is supposedly to do with 'jewish sensibilities' though most jews I know who play dont mind fascist themed games at all, and yes its something that turns up a lot.


2. Is taking the piss out of Nazis or using their iconography a Jewish privilege? Normally no, but some people are beginning to think so. Bring in "nazi" tank models, the question is raised; 'will this offend Jewish members?' Even in these posts people asked of specific Jewish members were offended, why should they have the privilege of refusal over anyone else, or a greater say. Noone cares if it offends British or French members.

- The way we look at this is, we fought Hitler, we were the first to stand up (successfully) to him and it was a long fight, and we have no hang ups. For example old Airfix models of german tanks and aircraft were popular, sold to children, and they often had swastika transfers. Models made in some countries of WW2 aircraft omited them. As a child I made my Stukas as well as my Spitfires, with no political leanings attached, if anyuone had or still has a problem with that, its their problem, not mine.
An even better example was Allo Allo, the BBC did a sitcom based on German occupied France, it had a handful of detractors but was amazingly funny and was very well received. The show had six seasons and is still broadcast today.

You see cultural tolerence is the watchword, again those who are offended are those with the problems, and need not be pandered to.


3. The next is where do you stop. with nazis, with nazis and soviets, with soviets and taliban, with taliban and... you get the idea.

- Again, and this is more topical than nazis: I know a player with well painted Taliban theme IG Tallarn army, complete with burning US flag for his company HQ, suicide bombers as demo charges (taking advantage of the rule where you can remove the guardsman), and a fat priest with a beard and 'power hook' (reminiscent of a notroious Islamc preacher who regualrly appears in the British press). Some immature people might have had problems, but we are yet to meet any, most understand what satire is and have no problems. More to the point our gaming group includes real servicemen who have been to the Sandbox and met the real thing themselves, not a single one has a negative word to say about this army, quite to opposite in fact.


4. The whole 40K Imperium theme is fascism.

- Frankly its an attraction to the hobby, it has never beeen twee or dumbed down. The human forces are evil, get used to it. Now I can see why GW stopped having human bomb units for Imperial Guard, but they have never really removed the horrors from the regime. Inquisitors still torture for information or to propogante fear over religious differences as a matter of routine. The Imperium still burns entire populations for unorthodoxy. If someone was to write up Hitlers career in the 40K universe under a different name, he would just be one servant of the Emperor, and not an especially active one either.

whatever, I really like that war bonds posters. SOme of the most patriotic posters were created during WW2. Ive been trying to get my hands on some but they apparently are worth tons of money.

If I ever had a nazi like army across the table from me I would refuse to play. I would say, this "other" army in particular....... is nazi-like I dont like that. I dont know that I would refuse to play it. Cause the more people say it the more it looks like a nazi army. It is pushing it a little though. If ever I saw a blatant swastika I would more than likely have to restrain myself from swinging. I am a very mellow person, it takes a LOT for me to EVER become aggressive, however nazi's do it immediatly. Whether or not this is a nazi army is grey. What I do know is that i was not overcome with anger when I first saw it. To me it was AFTER I read all the comments when I was like "oh, yeah; it is kinda nazish."

adamsouza wrote:I think what alot of people are missing that BAD GUYS with COOL UNIFIORMS can be copied without any moral implecations by those doing it.

They can also be copied specifically as an ethical statement which does have moral implications. The whole thread is about whether this one guy was doing that.

adamsouza wrote:

I can understand if YOU have a hard on against Nazis because of their history of Genocide, etc... but to the younger generation they are those guys in Wolfenstein, or those dudes Captain America kicks the snot out of. They simply don't have that boogeyman or taboo status with everyone.

Youth is no excuse. When I was a kid I read Commando action comics and learned that Nazis were scum because they did stuff like shooting prisoners. As a teen I was taught about the Holocaust. Youngsters have to learn about that kind of stuff as part of their ethical development.

Anyway, the guy with the army is not a kid.

Stormtrooper X wrote:

stonefox wrote:

Censoring or banning ideas because they are distasteful or nonPC is the 1st stepto a totalitarian society.

I seem to have missed where anyone was trying to say that these armies should be censored or banned.

I would tend to think all the talk of "If someone brought this into my gamestore I would tell them to leave" is the censorship/ban he is getting at.

Everyone else has let this slide by. I'm not going to:

Censorship is when the government comes to you and says "don't say/think/print that" and uses the coercive power of the state to enforce their order. What we're talking about is personal (and market) choice. You make a choice to paint your army as a Neo-Nazi fantasy and I would make the choice to not play against you and the choice to encourage my follow gamers to do the same. Similarly, if (as a Nazi/Neo-Nazi or just an admirer of said iconography, macht nichts) the person responsible for this army doesn't want to play against Jews or other untermenchen that's fine too. He's at perfect liberty to make that choice. Where, precisely, is the government coercion?

Store owners have a right to ask people to leave their property and no one has a right to play wargames or to force someone to play against them if they don't want to. Get a clue and get off your cross.

smart_alex wrote:whatever, I really like that war bonds posters. SOme of the most patriotic posters were created during WW2. Ive been trying to get my hands on some but they apparently are worth tons of money.

If I ever had a nazi like army across the table from me I would refuse to play. I would say, this "other" army in particular....... is nazi-like I dont like that. I dont know that I would refuse to play it. Cause the more people say it the more it looks like a nazi army. It is pushing it a little though. If ever I saw a blatant swastika I would more than likely have to restrain myself from swinging. I am a very mellow person, it takes a LOT for me to EVER become aggressive, however nazi's do it immediatly. Whether or not this is a nazi army is grey. What I do know is that i was not overcome with anger when I first saw it. To me it was AFTER I read all the comments when I was like "oh, yeah; it is kinda nazish."

The more people say it the more it looks like a Nazi army. That is what is giving me a feeling of wrongness about this thread, much the same as you all feel a feeling of wrongness looking at his army. It is like people who claim there are satanic messages or other messages that scare parents on metal albums if you play them backward. I went to a fairly fundamentalist school, which required us to watch videos where they would play the tracks backward several times, each time saying and writing the supposed line on the screen. The first time you might say, I didnt hear anything at all, but if it is repeated enough and someone is saying, " I hear this", well, by the third time around or so, even if you don't believe in the concept, you might very well hear it. Hey, Queen *is* saying to start smoking marijuana. Yah, wow, that does sound like that Judas Priest album says to try suicide.

It also bothers me that people make a knee jerk reaction that Nazi's are the scum of the earth. Wait, don't deride me as a revisionist or whatever you come up with before you hear me out. It doesnt bother me that people point out reasons why the government of Germany during that time period was bad, genocidal, whatever. It bothers me that people say " If I saw a blatant swastika, I'd have to restrain myself from swinging. That has nothing to do with Nazis actually, that is a conditioned response. The visceral reaction some people have is trained. The community forces you through psychological manipulation and ostracism to automatically respond with disgust and hate when you hear Nazi. I would bet hard currency that some of you who were offended by the artist were nearly breaking your fingers to type in a post about how much you hated it and how offended you were, because to be seen *not* to respond that way might mean you're a Nazi ( collaborator with *them*, in other words).

In actuality, history suggests then most of the people posting here would fall right in line with a totalitarian regime. I'm sorry, I know i'm going to catch a lot of ire for this, but I believe it true.

Grignard wrote:

smart_alex wrote:What I do know is that i was not overcome with anger when I first saw it. To me it was AFTER I read all the comments when I was like "oh, yeah; it is kinda nazish."

The more people say it the more it looks like a Nazi army.

In actuality, history suggests then most of the people posting here would fall right in line with a totalitarian regime. I'm sorry, I know i'm going to catch a lot of ire for this, but I believe it true.

That is because, at its core, it *is* a Nazi army. It just doesn't push Swastikas in your face.

The reason people become more upset about the army than at first glance is because other people are doing the homework to clarify the details, so that the subliminal and obscure Nazi references become overt and clearly-identified. A good example is the recruiting poster, which looked like a cool free-hand banner at first glance, but is later properly revealed to be an actual SS recruiting poster. I'll bet that less than 1% of the people who initially saw it, recognized it as a SS recruiting poster. But kudos to the guy who recognized it and was able to educate the rest as to what it really was.

I agree that most people would fall in line with a totalitarian regime. That is because the power of the State is so much greater than what any lone individual can muster, and this can be easily demonstrated by looking at the TSA. IMO, we're approaching a point at which the State is able to remove the last remaining vestiges of individual liberty and privacy. But civil and individual rights ought to be a topic for another thread.

But a game store is a very different matter. The power of a guy who's bringing a Nazi army isn't greater than yours - in fact, it's probably less. So you *can* talk to the owner and have him barred from playing such an army in the store. The armies played in-store are a reflection on the owner, and as a private owner, he has the right to refuse service that might offend other customers.

Well I am happy to know that if anyone came to any of my local stores, or club and demanded someone was thrown out because of their army theme they would be suitably ignored. The only exception would be regarding armies with as pornographic element (beyond witch elves) when children are around. Even so they player would be acceptable, just not the army.

Remember guys we dont have a right to be wildly intolerent, some people just think we do.

By and large most players can tell the difference between an ordinary player with an army with dubious political references and someone with extremist views.

Anyone accused someonewith the Taliban army of Islamic extremism, or any of the IG armies with wehrmacht schemes of being 'nazis' without firm third party evidence only brings into question their own credibility ansd maturity.

What some of those posting here would make of real historical armies I have no idea. Germans are a very popular choice for Flames of War, yes kids those models depict real nazis (well the SS ones do), not make believe ones.
Would it be foam at the mouth time?

I'm still not seeing a verbatim copy of that poster. The guy depicted in the guys art has a german style infantry helmet.
For the record I viewed the link.