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Orlanth wrote:Well I am happy to know that if anyone came to any of my local stores, or club and demanded someone was thrown out because of their army theme they would be suitably ignored. The only exception would be regarding armies with as pornographic element (beyond witch elves) when children are around. Even so they player would be acceptable, just not the army.

Remember guys we dont have a right to be wildly intolerent, some people just think we do.

By and large most players can tell the difference between an ordinary player with an army with dubious political references and someone with extremist views.

And I'm more than happy to find another gaming store. Especially after the "tolerant" one becomes the local skinhead hangout.

Call me crazy, but I don't see a gamestore becoming a skinhead haven.

Grignard wrote:I'm still not seeing a verbatim copy of that poster. The guy depicted in the guys art has a german style infantry helmet.
For the record I viewed the link.

SS recruiting poster (thanks for the link, Stelek):


GMM version


GMM only removed the Waffen SS badge from the helmet. But other than that, it is a verbatim copy.

I just wonder what people would do if I put together a Tallarn army with loads of Arabic slogans like 'Down with the Great Satan' and other such stuff on it, or named my characters after Taliban officials.

Or if I did an army that had tanks painted white with burning Crusifix iconography. Would they be any more of less offensive/correct than someone who puts a german/axis cross (not necessarily a swashtika (SP??)) on a tank.


I found the big Guard tank army with all the German iconography offensive. I found the Marine army with the crosses offensive as well (half because of the actual paint job, half because of the imagry).

I've seen WWII German themed Guard armies before, and a lot of them removed the Nazi iconography, kept the grey and the style of infantry helmets, but they made it 40K.


And I think that's what it comes down to. Someone can do a WWII German, or a Arabic army, or a religious fanatic army, or whatever - but if they remove the direct symbols and make sure it's a 40K army, as opposed to a German WWII army using 40K models, then that's where you have the difference.

BYE

My IG army's colour is Black, White and Red, simply because its a powerful Mix of colours, does that mean i read mine kampf(sp?) and attend hate rallies? No, it just means i use references from an historical army (which all IG armys are based on in one way or another). i dont use the red and white flag with a modified version of the swastikka(sp?) because i know that offends people. I do however use the iron cross because that predates the nazi regieme, again does make me a white surpemist?

Do you cover your tanks in real-life propaganda posters changed slightly to be Imperial?

What you're saying Lankington isn't an argument, and you've avoiding the issue at hand.

Moreover, you've done what I said in my post above:

You've taken a 40K army and painted it in WWII German colours. This is the opposite to taking a WWII German army, and using 40K models to represent it. That's what I and others take offence to, not someone who uses a 40K army with colours, it's when they use 40K miniatures to 'mask' the fact that it's a Nazi army.

BYE

what you say is true, and now that i realise i appologise, to be honest i thought Pro- Imperial posters on the sides of tanks were a good idea, but when i realised what they were based on i was disgusted. I think it is a shame because its a beutifuly painted army, just the blatent hate behind it, ruins it entirely.

I don't really see what the problem is. 40k is a fascist's wet dream, so living out that fantasy using NAZI iconography seems pretty appropriate.

Ahtman wrote:

jah-joshua wrote:i'm surprised that there has been so much negative reaction to this guard army...it's a game, and these are toys...

Maybe but it is our game and our toys. It's not even the toys or game, it is the symbolism and iconography. If you do not think symbols or icons can be meaningful then I'm going to guess you aren't nearly as worldly or mature as you try to state you are.

jah-joshua wrote:we as a species are guilty of plenty of wicked deeds...

Fixed that for you. Your search for some sort of moral equivalence is weakened by, well trying to make it, but by first lashing out against a specific target for your frustrations (the USA) then turning around and saying it is done everywhere by everyone with a sort of hum-drum acceptance that it is the way it is. When I read your post I couldn't help but think that it was a mish-mash of bumper sticker slogans and left wing propaganda. While there is some nice sentiment there, it comes off as a college freshman that has taken an introductory Eastern Philosophy class and now thinks they understand the world.

jah-joshua wrote:
i've lived all over the world

And yet you've still never met Mr. Shift Key? To get in the requisite amount of ellipses I guess I should put it here...

first, i understand the power of symbols and icons...the lion of judah and the star of david have great meanin' to me, as do images of haile sellasie I...
i would not own anything with nazi symbols, but i don't find them personally offensive...all the icons that were used in the nazi party have roots in other historical cultures(i.e. the roman, norse, and prussian cultures)...the party used them for their powerful symbolism, and now these icons will be forever attached to the memory of one of the worst holocausts in world history...i get it...
the swaztika(facin' the opposite direction) is all over asia, but i don't see anyone complainin' about buddha statues with swaztikas bein' racist or offensive...it's a symbol of good luck in asia...

second, there is no search for moral equivalence in my post...it's simply a statement of fact that hatred is a global sickness...people are killin' each other in every country, it just so happens that some cultures in history have taken it to a whole new level...it's not right, but it is real...the only way to change it is to be a good person on the individual level...

the usa is not a target for my frustrations, as i don't really have any frustrations...i do what i want, and go where i want...as a rastaman, i don't get involved in politricks(yes, that's what i call politics)...i do my own thing...
my point is that we should not be so quick to pass judgement, as our hands are not clean...in our brief history, we have done some very horrible things...i'm not attackin' america here, i'm just statin' the facts...we as a nation are guilty of some of the same crimes that we revile in other nations...why is that so hard for us to accept...i accept it, and am determined to live with as much love, and as little hate as possible...

as for the whole statement about my post bein' a "mish-mash of bumper sticker slogans and left-wing propoganda", and comin' off as "a college freshman that has taken an introductory eastern philosophy class and now thinks they understand the world", all i can say is that i have studied zen since i was 12 years old(that's 22 years of eastern influence)...i never did go to college though...the world has been my university...16 years of travel definitely opens the eyes...i'm not left wing, i'm very a-political...zen and rastafari are movements which concentrate more on the actions of the individual, not the group...
i don't think i understand the world...i'm constantly dumbfounded...just when ya think you've seen it all, something else crazy comes along...humanity never ceases to amaze me...

lastly, i type the way i type...it's fast and simple...who cares if i use the shift key or not...i type in the same voice that i speak in...like popeye said,"i am what i am, and that's all that i am"...ya don't have to like it, but ya don't have to attack me for it, and treat me like i'm stupid and uneducated...

cheers
jah

The SS symbols were removed. Not a verbatim copy. In other words, he took anything offensive or even relating to the real world off of it. Now, if he were really a Nazi ( Thats the original question in the thread), wouldn't it be very tempting to leave those little symbols there?

Sure, but I don't think anyone's arguing that he's an idiot as well.

Orlanth wrote:Remember guys we dont have a right to be wildly intolerent, some people just think we do.

Wait, we don't have a right to be wildly intolerant? Since when?

By and large most players can tell the difference between an ordinary player with an army with dubious political references and someone with extremist views.

Actually, judging by how this thread has gone, I'd say it's about 50/50.

What some of those posting here would make of real historical armies I have no idea. Germans are a very popular choice for Flames of War, yes kids those models depict real nazis (well the SS ones do), not make believe ones.
Would it be foam at the mouth time?

Well, it's pretty obvious from reading nearly all of the posts here, that it would not be "foam at the mouth time." WWII reenactors don't bother hardly anybody. Neo-nazis bother a lot of people.

If you can't tell that this guy's a neo-Nazi from looking at his army, you just don't know enough about neo-Nazis, I guess. I have to admit that the Kriegmarine one went right over my head; my knowledge of neo-Nazis must be middlin'.

I just thought of something......He *does* have a painting studio. Perhaps he wants to *sell* an army to a neo-nazi. He could charge more than his standard rate, because where else are you going to get nazi 40k stuff with Thor on it.

be he addmitted he was didn't he? anyway he could of made it more 'imperial' then i wouldn't have a problem with it, and i think alot more people too would be cool with it. plus that Swastikka send off is a sus dont you think???

More to the point, it's a recruitment poster. ALL recruitment posters throughout the ages are nothing but boilerplate imagery.

Refer to the image I found and the composition is almost EXACTLY the same. Uncle Sam holding a flag, innumerable bombers flying overhead, tanks rumbling down in front of him, and some slogan plastered on it.

All of it conveys an image of power. "Army of one." So powerful that YOU are an army. "Full speed ahead." It's a statement used referencing ships, put all power of the engines or propulsion section to use. "Be all that you can be." Be the most powerful version of yourself, fulfilling your full potential.

ALL STANDARD BOILERPLATE.

Orders of maginitude different from a poster saying something like "Kill those inferior, dirty Joos."

C'mon people. Use some perspective.

Orlanth wrote:
2. []Bring in "nazi" tank models, the question is raised; 'will this offend Jewish members?' Even in these posts people asked of specific Jewish members were offended, why should they have the privilege of refusal over anyone else, or a greater say. Noone cares if it offends British or French members.[]
You see cultural tolerence is the watchword, again those who are offended are those with the problems, and need not be pandered to.

That´s the "moral relativism" problem we have in today´s world as everything boils down to "I have been moraly offended by your ideas remove them or else" better be PC all day long or you´ll risk the WRATH of the PC crowd. I have been "tongue lashed" in a class about teaching spanish to foreign students because I use the phrase "Girls, don´t you think he is cute" after showing a Brad Pit photo to a mixed classroom for an exercice "What if you have a gay in class? he´ll be left out" the teacher told me.

My point is that if you give them a chance everybody will have a reason to complain if you give them half a chance and in some places like the US or the EU you won´t even need that to have them screaming at your ear, so as Orlanth said cultural tolerance is the word not PC.

M.

edit: fixed my phrase.

Hold on, I'm not understanding something here: Your supervisor reprimanded you because using a picture of Brad Pitt to teach the phrase "Don't you think he is cute" might somehow leave the "gay" in the class out? I'd think it would leave out all the straight guys myself...

Nurglitch wrote:Hold on, I'm not understanding something here: Your supervisor reprimanded you because using a picture of Brad Pitt to teach the phrase "Don't you think he is cute" might somehow leave the "gay" in the class out? I'd think it would leave out all the straight guys myself...

I repeat the sentiment, but without Nurg's wit.

Otto is surprised by your intolerance.

Doctor Optimal wrote:Everyone else has let this slide by. I'm not going to:

Censorship is when the government comes to you and says "don't say/think/print that" and uses the coercive power of the state to enforce their order. What we're talking about is personal (and market) choice. You make a choice to paint your army as a Neo-Nazi fantasy and I would make the choice to not play against you and the choice to encourage my follow gamers to do the same. Similarly, if (as a Nazi/Neo-Nazi or just an admirer of said iconography, macht nichts) the person responsible for this army doesn't want to play against Jews or other untermenchen that's fine too. He's at perfect liberty to make that choice. Where, precisely, is the government coercion?

Store owners have a right to ask people to leave their property and no one has a right to play wargames or to force someone to play against them if they don't want to. Get a clue and get off your cross.

I´ll answer this with this entry from the American Heritage Dictionary

Censorship
1.The act, process, or practice of censoring.
2.The office or authority of a Roman censor.
3.Psychology Prevention of disturbing or painful thoughts or feelings from reaching consciousness except in a disguised form.

and from Dictionary.com
Banning
–verb (used with object) 1. to prohibit, forbid, or bar; interdict: to ban nuclear weapons; The dictator banned all newspapers and books that criticized his regime.

It doesn´t say that it´s only censorship if the goverment does it. In the current Free Speech vs Censorship battle going on in the US it´s against the US Constitution if the goverment (Fed, State and Local level) does it but that doesn´t mean that if you ban me from expresing my thoughs, even if you have all the right because I´m right in the middle of your house, you are not censoring me just because you are not the goverment.

M.

Yep she did. As a teacher I´m supposed to take into account all possible sensibilities. :( Imagine the mess if I have a mixed class of 2 guys from the US, a chinese, a guy from India and a palestinian learning spanish and I have to explaing why in Spain every Easter we go crazy about Christianity without using religious examples that can offend non-christians.

We live in a PC world where common sense doesn´t have a place.

M.

Miguelsan wrote:
It doesn´t say that it´s only censorship if the goverment does it. In the current Free Speech vs Censorship battle going on in the US it´s against the US Constitution if the goverment (Fed, State and Local level) does it but that doesn´t mean that if you ban me from expresing my thoughs, even if you have all the right because I´m right in the middle of your house, you are not censoring me just because you are not the goverment.

M.

Actually it just means the Federal government, even then there are exceptions. States and local governments can pass such ordinances if they want. The federal doesn't always trump States rights. In fact we fought a war about it.

I stand corrected then I can´t remember my Goverment classes that I took when I was over there eons ago.

M.

Grignard wrote:The SS symbols were removed. Not a verbatim copy. In other words, he took anything offensive or even relating to the real world off of it.

Now, if he were really a Nazi ( Thats the original question in the thread), wouldn't it be very tempting to leave those little symbols there?

No, he didn't because the picture is still a copy of a poster that is inherently offensive and all of the remaining imagery relates exactly to its real-world counterpart.

Personally, he probably *should* have left Waffen SS badge with it's the Doppel-Sig runes, along with plastering Swastikas on everything, just to keep things simple.

What he's done is the same as what every other white power / Neo-Nazi group has done - to substitute the actual Nazi symbols with their new forms while otherwise glorifying the Nazis. It's no accident that all of they men in his army are blond-haired Aryan types.

But you can go on and keep apologizing for him. I'm done responding to you.

I'm trying to keep a close eye on this thread (when I can) to make sure the discussion stays based around arguments rather than personal attacks against actual users.

Some posts have been deleted that contained blatant insults.

Anyone who continues to insult other posters in this thread will have their posts deleted and possibly face further disciplinary action.

Keep the discussion civil and on-topic people!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Grignard wrote:The SS symbols were removed. Not a verbatim copy. In other words, he took anything offensive or even relating to the real world off of it.

Now, if he were really a Nazi ( Thats the original question in the thread), wouldn't it be very tempting to leave those little symbols there?

No, he didn't because the picture is still a copy of a poster that is inherently offensive and all of the remaining imagery relates exactly to its real-world counterpart.

Personally, he probably *should* have left Waffen SS badge with it's the Doppel-Sig runes, along with plastering Swastikas on everything, just to keep things simple.

What he's done is the same as what every other white power / Neo-Nazi group has done - to substitute the actual Nazi symbols with their new forms while otherwise glorifying the Nazis. It's no accident that all of they men in his army are blond-haired Aryan types.

But you can go on and keep apologizing for him. I'm done responding to you.

Ok, I didnt mean to insult you, but it is how I feel. I think the artist made it clear that he had an interest in propaganda posters. Incorporating a theme or a picture into a work of art, even if you think that it portrays the subject matter in a positive light, is not offensive in my mind.

I'll keep apologizing for him as long as I feel it necessary. He's been false flagged and personally insulted on this board. *if* he is a neo nazi, which I really do doubt, then he has behaved in a more civilized manner than alot of the self appointed defenders of truth and freedom on this board, which you might say is kind of scary.

About the propaganda poster....I think if he had painted one of the posters about Jews, that would be an entirely different game than a poster with a soldier on it that was probably inspired by a recruitment poster.

I think that is worth mentioning

*if* he is a neo nazi, which I really do doubt, then he has behaved in a more civilized manner than alot of the self appointed defenders of truth and freedom on this board, which you might say is kind of scary.

I could show you the PMs he made with the personal attacks if you'd like (including the one in my sig), but I assume he just realized that Warseer is the place to go if you don't want a callout. Coward or wise, whatever.

KiMonarrez wrote:More to the point, it's a recruitment poster. ALL recruitment posters throughout the ages are nothing but boilerplate imagery.

If that is so, then why *that* specific poster? If the point would be just as good using a US / UK / French / Canadian recruitment poster as the basis, why not use an Allied poster?

The fact of the matter is that he *specifically* selected a Waffen SS Nazi poster to paint.

And it's not an isolated element, which might be forgivable. It's part of an army in which all of the men are blond-haired, in which the army flag is based very strongly on the Nazi flag, etc.

For grins, one might count how many ADL-recognized hate symbols are present in his army. To me, the entire thing just screams hate.

I'm sorry, I'm going to take the side of someone who gets false flagged. I hate garbage like that.