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Personally I'd like to see a separate Farsight enclave codex. Essentially more expensive units which are better at melee and a few special units unique to the codex. Assault battle suits would be nice.

October 16. That's when this thread was started.

Ok, I'm really fixated with this idea of light walker units. If you don't think walkers would fit into the Tau technology style, why not have them be alien ally units, like kroot or vespid walkers, or some new race entirely? Heck, why not have human auxiliary walkers - actual Sentinels!

What purpose would they serve? I can't imagine walkers doing anything that the Crisis suits don't do better.

Its the old give the Tau a HTH monster. Thats the purpose. IMHO, The Tau empire will gain access to greater Gnarlocks before they get walkers.

No no no, not a HTH "monster." Not walkers like Dreadnoughts that rip squads apart, walkers like Sentinels that don't really kill anything but are also hard for infantry to kill. Their 10 or 11 armor values just make them good for tar pitting - they could slow enemy assault squads substantially so other units could keep shooting things instead of being assaulted.

Rather than light walkers, assault suits would be preferable, IMO.

Assault suits with 2+ armor saves, powerfists or lightning claws, and either built-in flamers or fusion blasters. With bulky-up armored versions of the forgeworld suits.

I'd suggest Assault suit with PFs, Sv3+, Jetpacks, and HnR.

Performance-wise, PFs and Lightning Claws are very similar, but PFs have generally better utility. Plus, Tau are slow, so they can't get much benefit from Claws. I could see an Eldar Assault Aspect armed with Claws though, as they're I5+...

Anyhow, with PFs as the basic weapon, Tau can't be Sv2+, because then they're Terminator copies. So Sv3+, which allows them to keep the Jetpacks for JSJ mobility to get into combat. Also, it keeps them as HQ / Elites (good) rather than competing for Heavy (bad).

Then, give them Hit and Run so they can get out when needed to allow for synergy with a largely shooty army - Tau lock in, at the end of the enemy turn, they H&R out, Tau shoot on their turn, and then Jump back in with the Charge bonus.

Anything that enhances Tau abilities at offensive H2H dilutes the quality and interest of the army, IMO.

I wouldn't go so far as "anything", but rather focus on an things that provide an excess of HtH ability. I don't think PF suits would be excessive in the least, given that they merely accentuate the slowness of the Tau in HtH - the only difference is that survivors hit back harder.

Heck, you could even go to the next step of Heavy "turtle" Sv2+ suits with integral Sv4++ power shields, and then arm them with pistols & CCWs.

Two styles of combat suits would be interesting. Turtlesuits with powerfists and Jumpy suits with stormshields and fusion charges(so melta effect against vehicles s5-6 on charge power weapons). Or maybe, for extra coolness make the turtlesuits have eviscerators. Seems to me that O'Shovah wouldn't have any qualms about adopting enemy weaponry functions if he already decided that close combat is necessary.

Do people actually think Sentinels and War Walkers are any good at killing things? I just see them as effective tar pits, which makes them an interesting way to avoid assaults rather than win them. And avoiding assaults is something I think Tau should be better at.

Avoiding assault these days is incredibly difficult. Short of making Tau ludicrously destructive in the shooting phase or giving everything a jump-pack it may be an impossible goal.

But I think some cheap light walkers would be a good way to do it. They get stuck in with something scary...and then just kind of stay stuck for a while, because they suck but are hard for infantry to take out in melee. Meanwhile non-sucky units shoot things up since they're not being assaulted.

OK, gonna take another stab at this. typed it up 3 days ago and dakka update ate the post.

What I posted earlier was just a dream or wish list. I've thought about this some and narrowed down to what is either practical or rumors of improvements that I like. I started another thread on this a little while back to try and focus down a little from an overall wish list to what would make sense. What would really make a difference without changing the army as much as updating and I'll try to hit the high points and explain my reasoning for each.

First) The Tau aren't bad off. They just aren't designed for 5th ed. The reason I suggested the changes to the special characters is because this seems to be the way GW is moving. Whether or not this is herohammer, I don't know or really care. I can live with it if it means more variety of army builds and playstyle. So 3-4 big heros with 3-4 army philosiphies. Aun'va is for the semi-static gun-line with some ordinance back-up, Shadowsun for highly mobile scouting and fast hitting armies, Farsight for elite hard hitting strike forces with some HtH. Mind you these are just ideas as to how GW might tweek these heros.

Second) As I state in the drones as troops thread. The Tau only need a little tweeking to bring them up to 5th ed. I believe that the largest part of that tweek will come in the form of army restructuring with the addition of some tech advancements. To me, the simplest way to accomplish this is in the drones. Make the drones count as troops with limited special weapon access. The Tau already suffer all of the penalties of them as troops without any of the benefits. The reasons I support this is as follows.

A) With the drones as troops you add mobility to the army. You could limit it to 1 squad of drones for every squad of troops selected as troops.

B) The drones on the Devilfish could easily be ruled as part of the squad that purchases the 'fish. As long as the drones load and unload at the same time there is no problem. This would fix the KP issue and wouldn't make the vehicle opened topped because of the designed firing recesses.

C) The special weapons would be flamers, burst cannons, and possibly fusion guns for an additional 6-10 pts each. The squads would be able to upgrade 2 models but only with identical weapons. This wouldn't make them or the army any more assault oriented, just more flexible. This would also allow for fire warriors to get some much needed support without violating current Fire caste doctrine and re-enforce the roll of the drones as little helpers. Just write up that the squad is unable to take the heavier weapon systems because the space needed for the targeting arrays and such take up the space for the independent A.I.. That way the railrifle drones and whatever other weapons systems deemed too powerful would only go to a model with a drone controller.

D) The drone squadrons on the Pirahnas would make the vehicles worth taking. It would make for a limited highly mobile objective taking unit without being overpowered because of the squadron rules. Immobilized=destroyed means drones disembark when the first pirahna bites it. The lead pirahna can carry the optional Special weapon drones.

E) This opens up room in Fast attack to move in one of the forgeworld Tetra or the droneless pirahna variants.

Third) Continuing with the restructuring I think that the Sniper Drone teams in their current incarnation need to go away and they can take the rail rifle pathfinders with them into the realm of restructuring. What would re-emerge would be something actually useful.

1) The sniper drones would be joined with stealth suit shas'vre armed with HW drone controllers, networked markers, and choice of burst cannon or fusion guns. The squad would not be allowed to take any other drones but would be able to take (one additional piece of wargear each?) and a bonding knife. Each suit can take only 2 sniper drones as per normal drone controller rules with 6-12 in a squad counting drones(4 suits+8 Drones=12). There would be only one such squad per army and would occupy a heavy support slot. Don't know if they would keep the DeepStrike/Infiltrate but I think they should. This would make for an extremely mobile(Drones would benefit from the jetpack relentless rule) hard to kill unit that was worth its points.

2) The rail rifle pathfinders would be teamed up with the old sniper drone controllers. The networked marker controllers would also project a cohesive shield that confer invulnerables onto the whole squad. There would be one generator for every three rail rifles. This squad I was thinking would make a much better honour guard for the ethereal. This would make the Etheral have an offensive purpose.

Fourth) Fix and clarify wargear entries. From the typo's to the outdated, the inconsistent vehicle pricing to the under/overcosted. I don't really need to go any farther, because its been agreed that disruption pods are to cheap and that decoy launchers are now useless just to name a few. Also, compensate for Stealthsuits in cover while assaulted being nerfed by going back to always counting as being in cover thus getting the 4+ coversaves.


Fifth) The Ion Cannon goes up in price and gains rending. This allows the smaller CIB to have the rending rule that GW almost gave it but couldn't when its big brother didn't have it. Up the price on the cannon to 30 and cut the blasters rof by 1. This would make the railhead no longer the automatic choice. Running an Ionhead would make sense and would add variety.

Sixth) Make the ASS standard on the Broadsides(include in the price) to where it doesn't take the precious wargear slot . Again more mobility.

Seventh) The Tau BS seems to low for the shootiest army. Couple that with Markerlights being overworked just pulling down coversaves in 5th ed and this is an area in need of refinement. I believe most would like to see a streamlining of markerlight hits in gameplay, yet few suggest as to how. I'm torn as to the answer here. It could either be get rid of the marker ability to boost bs and give all Tau units a +1 bs or up the price of markers and make the marker hits have an across the board boost(Spend the hits and all units firing upon the marked target recieve the bonus not just one squad). The other question is, Should they just make all marker lights except the pathfinder ones networked? I could see a whole thread on how to streamline marker lights.

Eighth) Last are the auxillaries. Kroot are pretty good just as they are. I'd only like to see an armor save of 5+. It wouldn't do much against a lot of small arms fire and would do nothing against the kroots biggest enemy, the flamer. It would help keep a few of them around in HtH. I would also like to see the old buy their loyalty rule where kroot leadership is based upon how much you paid per model. It would definitely bring the mercenary element back.

This is just a very unreliable rumor from some other site, but one of the Tau forums seems to think that vespid will get rending. I like this rumor. Not as much as a poison attack but It would be a nice little boost.


These Ideas are just that, ideas based upon how I see the Tau and what would make sense as to effective application of their style of warfare. Drones as troops would fix a lot of the KP and morale problems. It also fits with the fluff that the Tau consider their little friends as a living part of their society. The Sniper drone and broadside fixes better fit the Tau philosophy of warfare. There should never be a truly static gun line in a Tau army. Their concept is more of a hunt not static battle lines. So while the line appears static it should be able to pack out at the last moment. The Ion cannon/blaster improvements represent the Tau steadily improving their tech. I never covered what would be truly new as far New aliens allies because its been pretty well covered and I don't think anything I'd throw in would be any different to whats already been said.

I think that it may be interesting for the Tau to use screens of cheap kamikaze drones for that sort of job. I can imagine it now. Tau leave their devilfish and take up temporary emplacements to fire on the enemy. Enemy assault units are funnelled towards the "vulnerable" firewarrior squads. As they close, a cloud of small, half-buried drone mines rise from ground and jet into the offending unit, blowing apart any that survived the pulse-fire on the way.

Just like Rough Riders, but with added Tau flavoring. They are suicidal, but also robotic and therefore no life is lost. No different than the expenditure of any other ammunition.

Only problem is that it doesn't fit with the Tau fluff. The Tau do not practice attrition warfare and they consider the drones to be like part of their families.
Its ok to have a bodygaurd drone but they don't do kamikaze.

Kilkrazy wrote:Anything that enhances Tau abilities at offensive H2H dilutes the quality and interest of the army, IMO.

Exactly Killrazy.

Tau need to be the BEST "shooty" army and have the achilles heel of getting destroyed in CC. The way to keep that theme is to:
1) Give them better shooting (increase BS and/or weapons available)
2) Lower the points cost of crisis suits to compensate for TLOS
3) Lower the points cost of Skimmers to compensate for no more auto glance
4) Increase mobility of vehicles and/or suits

Having low leadership is something that just comes with Tau. They don't hold ground so they run if they are losing. Sucking in CC needs to stay a "theme" of the Tau army as well. Finally, they need to be able to kill things faster now that EVERYTHING can get into CC faster. The way to do that is to increase BS or improve the weapons that Tau have the ability to equip.

Wow focusedfire. That was an amazing post. I agree with all of the things listed. Tau wouldn't be invincible in 5th edition with those changes, but would finally feel like they are "updated" to work with 5th edition.

1) Special characters: Need some useful ethereals. All there is to it.
2) Drone squads : Amazing. Would love to equip them with different weapons and turn them into more than just a speed-bump against assault armies.
3) Sniper Teams: Just get rid of the "controller" and add a couple more drones to the team and you are set. They shouldn't be Heavy Support, though.
4) Wargear: DP needs a point increase, badly. Nearly everything else needs to be fixed for 5th edition. I agree with you completely.
5) Ion Cannon: Personally its pointless right now. It needs to be small blast. RG beats it in nearly every other way. And even then its usually more useful to take a XV8 team with plasma rifles.
6) AdvSS on XV88s : Yes. Yes. Yes. It should be included with a price increase.
7) BS & Markerlights : XV8s need a BS increase. Firewarriors stay the same. Markerlights either drop in cost, or give the benefit to every Tau shooting at that unit that turn. More units should be able to take markerlights (including tanks)
8) Kroot: They are fine. A 5+ save would bring them more in line with orcs but I doubt that will happen. They mainly need to get USRs that fit with their abilities.

If drones were cheaper, maybe at about 8 points a piece per(non-compulsory) troops slot I'd always take at least 2 dozen of them. Firewarriors need a boost, with either squad support weapons or them being cheaper.

And I've never read about combat drones being considered family. Tau don't use attrition warfare but that doesn't preclude them from disposable drone defenses. How do you think decoy launchers work?

Drones are unique to Tau, and really should be rethought as they're a strong army differentiator.

That's why I'd like to see more varied Drones, and especially Drone upgrades in the Troops section:

- Fire Warriors with 2 Drones of any given type would have a lot more battlefield flexibility and utility. Make these detachable and Scoring and Tau can play the same multi-Scoring FOC games in Objectives Missions, while limiting KPs when needed. Fire Warriors with these kinds of options would be *very* desirable.

- Drone Squadrons as non-Scoring Troops would similarly be very effective at increasing variety. Heavy Gun Drones would be an interesting alternative to Devastators, while Shield Drones would be useful for screening.

- Combat Drones would be an oddity, but I could see them fitted with a couple of counter-rotating sawblades to automatically score a S3 hit on every enemy model in BtB. Now, imagine a squadron of them... Nice!

Anyhow, I really feel that the Tau Drone potential is wasted and should be addressed in their 5E Codex.

I've always wanted to field an army that was basically a remote controlled drone force, like the droids in Clone Wars. A few control/Commander suits, maybe some tanks and such, and then clouds of drones lining up and gunning down the enemy while kamikaze drones fly head on into crowds of enemy assault units and blowing them away.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Drones are unique to Tau, and really should be rethought as they're a strong army differentiator.

That's why I'd like to see more varied Drones, and especially Drone upgrades in the Troops section:

- Fire Warriors with 2 Drones of any given type would have a lot more battlefield flexibility and utility. Make these detachable and Scoring and Tau can play the same multi-Scoring FOC games in Objectives Missions, while limiting KPs when needed. Fire Warriors with these kinds of options would be *very* desirable.

Totally with you on liking drones, and having more uses would be nice.

JohnHwangDD wrote:- Drone Squadrons as non-Scoring Troops would similarly be very effective at increasing variety. Heavy Gun Drones would be an interesting alternative to Devastators, while Shield Drones would be useful for screening.

Might be simpler to make them a slotless choice like servitors (perhaps make the drone controller upgrade something that unlocks them, like techmarines giving you one servitor each)

JohnHwangDD wrote:- Combat Drones would be an oddity, but I could see them fitted with a couple of counter-rotating sawblades to automatically score a S3 hit on every enemy model in BtB. Now, imagine a squadron of them... Nice!

Even better might be the suicide charge. Bomb drones would be fun, sort of bomb squigs meats smart bombs.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Anyhow, I really feel that the Tau Drone potential is wasted and should be addressed in their 5E Codex.

Absolutely, this plus a simpler/better written marker light would be nice.

Jack

@JohnHwangDD: I personally think anything dealing with CC upgrading should come from the Kroot. Tau canon dictates that the reason the Kroot are part of the "Greater Good" is they fill a specific role the Tau lack, and further more, find distasteful. So instead of adding CC weapons to drones, I think it would be more reasonable to give us a plastic kroot hound kit.

Jackmojo wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:- Drone Squadrons as non-Scoring Troops would similarly be very effective at increasing variety. Heavy Gun Drones would be an interesting alternative to Devastators, while Shield Drones would be useful for screening.

Might be simpler to make them a slotless choice like servitors

Sure, Drone Squadrons could be non-FOC. But I would like to see them as Troops.

The could be non-Scoring by default, but maybe the Halo dude makes them Scoring?

Jackmojo wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:- Combat Drones would be an oddity, but I could see them fitted with a couple of counter-rotating sawblades to automatically score a S3 hit on every enemy model in BtB. Now, imagine a squadron of them... Nice!

Even better might be the suicide charge. Bomb drones would be fun, sort of bomb squigs meats smart bombs.

Traditionally, exploding drones has been a Necron Scarab mechanic, so I wouldn't want to see this taken by the Tau.

Combat Drones could be something of a "last resort option", perhaps deliberately overcosted to reduce their desirability.

WRT Kroot, Combat Drones would be non-shooting and non-Scoring, along with Drone stats (WS) so they would have less overall synergy and effectiveness than Kroot. Combat Drones would simply allow for a Drone-heavy theme, as a deliberately inferior alternative that contrasts and clarifies why the Tau use Kroot rather than Drones for CC capability.

Necron scarabs don't explode anymore, and haven't since the old raider list. I think it would be fine to bring it back since its been retconned from the Necrons. I would like to see kroot getting some nice buffs here. They cost more than ork boyz, but only have S4 over them, while the orkz have more attacks and higher toughness, with a nastier squad leader and weapon options. They have plenty of room to include some "evolution" upgrades similar to Tyranid biomorphs and some equipment options that are effective and don't clash thematically.

I wouldn't bother putting in stuff that is deliberately overcosted. If the lack of value is at all obvious, it just means players won't use it -- viz Space Pope and Vespids -- and why bother to invent stuff that won't be used.

A drone based army should be a viable alternative to a regular army.

As many games these days demonstrate, an army isn't balanced by having some overtly terrible units and incredible units at the same time. I'ts balanced by each having a useful role, and excelling in it.

@KK: GW does this all the time. Remember, this is a narrative wargame, so some things *should* be overcosted and others underscosted to give army theme.

Just compare BA / DA / SM Tactical Squads when built as 10-man units with ML & Flamer in Rhino. The SM version comes out well ahead of the others. Why? Because BA / DA aren't supposed to play as ordinary SM, and if they try to, they're not quite as good at it.

Or WH Sisters vs Stormtroopers when built as 10 models with 2 Flamers. The Sisters are *clearly* superior with Sv3+, S4 Bolters, and a Heavy Flamer swapping for the 2nd Flamer.

So slightly (5-10%) overcosted Combat Drones would be the same kind of thing - adding flavor and options that doesn't detract from the primary build.