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While we are at it, I noticed that Farsight has been pretty much left out up till now.

Maybe he should get the human auxilia(Storm strooper types) fits with where his enclave is.

Also, bring his armies CC back. They have increasingly boned them in that area since the tau came out.

The army runs on limited supplies is(according to fluff rumor) working as mercenaries, has forsaken pure fire caste doctrine and trains extensively in HtH. Yet they are no better than regular Fire warriors? Give them an across the board initiative and ws bump.

Maybe make them a combination of IG and Tau ,weaponry wise,and then adjust the pts or restrict access to tech accordingly.

What changes to the Farsight enclaves need to be made? your opinions pls.....

The old WS and I boosts don't exist anymore,at least for normal troops, because a WS and I 3 firewarrior is just a stormtrooper with a pulse rifle. The upgrade was a meaningless waste of points that did nothing unless it applied to crisis suits, which lacked CC equipment to take advantage of it. O'Shovah doesn't use Kroot much either, he doesn't trust anyone, even most Tau, so He probably would not trust Auxilia units. He would probably re-fit Crisis suits with powerfists and other such combat modifications looted from enemies on the fringes of the Empire

O'Shovah i agree wouldn't seem like the most adaptive of generals. I see him as one of the most elietist tau generals. The Ork new codex talks about "The War of Dakka". So potentailly suits with more power wepons/cc options would seem appropriate also mabe some more wepon skill for them. Not sure points wise for cost but it would definatly be a Farsight onclave only option. This would more than compensate for their lack of non fw and suits options. Either that some continuation of his hatred of orks (mabe for the entire army)?

It's debatable due to his focus on winning and having to be adaptable with limited resources.

I can see the kroots were yanked because of treaty/agreement with empire.

Still would love to see crisis with power fist. Would make having sucky initiative worthwhile.

They do get the continuation of hatred, It just got nerfed with the new preffered enemy.

A new idea. Make the Gun drones on the devil fish a part of the squad that takes the transport. Thereby eliminating the KP. Makes sense because the drones are already passengers.

Tau can't win in 5th? Have some troubles with winning? They have pooor troops? WTH with you people, isn't main Tau army core (Crisis\Stealth\Broadside) + HH and sniper drones already too way good? Do you wanna play game or just throw dices? Maybe you ask GW in 5ed Tau codex about red button - at any time, say you pushed button. You won this battle in massacre?

Winning, I do pretty good. Just until new codex, playstyle and unit choice has been severly limited. Not every player wants to play Mech all the time.

And when other armies are being strengthened while your army was weakened by new ruleset it is normal to think of what would be nice.

I've got 1 gripe with a lot of the suggestions here.

Against a proper Tau force, there are no cover saves.

Reducing cover saves should be the primary function of markerlights in the current edition. Start using those marker drones, start giving your team leaders lights and HW target locks, and light em up. Then see how well weaving together serves them.

RaGe-at-Random wrote:I've got 1 gripe with a lot of the suggestions here.

Against a proper Tau force, there are no cover saves.

Reducing cover saves should be the primary function of markerlights in the current edition. Start using those marker drones, start giving your team leaders lights and HW target locks, and light em up. Then see how well weaving together serves them.

Yes, true but I center my army around pinning, so I need those marker lights to lower moral. Since Tau are never going to be any good at sweeping advance, you need to break moral through shooting. And since marker light hits cannot benefit from other marker light hits, most of the time (excepting sniper drone squads and models with targeting arrays) they only hit on a 4+. For ten points a light (other then pathfinders which are a bargain and marker drones which are 30 pts for some reason) they just aren't very reliable. Marker lights are great, they're just over-priced.

In their current state our team leaders if you equip them w/ bonding knife, marker light and target lock they = 30ish points (on vacation no dex). So haveing to pick them out seperatly is a big deal in 5th. Also as already stated drones are too expensive rather have 2 sheild drones than 1 marker drone.

Networked marker were designed for jet-pack squads and broadsides. Pricing is to steep to use in any game excep apoc. Just my opinion.

So I started a thread on dakka discussions about how the new HQ's are really messing with FOC and why they are doing it. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/225678.page

So what do you think Tau should get? I really don't see us in a mold where we would get FOC chagnes. I also don't see them killing off our named characters either.

However I could see us getting a new named dude as a successor to the space pope - but thats it. I wouldn't mind Shadowsun getting different guns either but thats just me.

Tau are currently the only army where their special characters, in general, are not geared for the offensive. Tau are a ranged army, why don't Tau leaders have better ranged capabilities than the regular commanders? Yes Farsight is OK but he doesn't give a global offensive increase in any effective way other than free bonding knives. Its not like FWs become fearless(that'd be nice) and preffered enemy CC against orks only on initiative 2 models is someones idea of a bad joke.

I'm revising my wish list to include special characters and how I think the army should work. Please note that unless otherwise noted I'm fine with the points increasing to cover any extra abilities or increase in effectiveness.

Special Characters:
Farsight- Same profile but improved effect on army. So much so he gets his own list or codex. Army has across board improved intiative and WS bump. Also, access to bayonets and CC weapons and furious Assault against orks. Either his army gets Merc wargear or he gets unrestricted Tau equipment list at increased cost to represent the difficulty in getting equipement. Army still gets bonding knives free.(I know, this is to much) Fluff about Aun Shi finding and joining Farsight. Aun shi becomes only ethereal able to be used in Farsight army but loses special character and instead becomes an available upgrade character to a single FW squad.

ShadowSun-Stealth armour visibility is reduced to 2d6x2 for all steath suits in her army. She still gets the Command Link and Shield Drone retinue. She gets to take up to an additional 4 gun, or 2 marker, or 2 sniper drones in her retinue. Either there always has to be an ethereal(Ethereals become upgrade characters for troops in the next codex?Ethereal=Commisar) in her army or there are shas'el and shas 'o stealthsuit commanders available(You tell me which you like).Or both?

Aun Va-Gets to call in Airstrikes ala DOW. Make it a S9 AP3 Ordinance available a limited number(what 2 or 3) of times a game. With etherals as an upgrade character Aun 'Va takes the current codex Ethereal bodyguard of improved FWs. Leave everything else the same.

Regular Army and Characters:
Shas 'el and Shas'o xv-8 commanders-Get markerlight option. Fix Command Node to where it serves a purpose(leadership to everything within 12" except kroot). Fix Cyclic Ion Cannon(make it truly rending),Make Positional Relay worth taking get rid of 2+single unit and instead allow rerolls for all reserves(even successful ones).

Ethereals-Become buyable character for Tau FW squads.(what special rules should he have?)Makes the squad and only that squad stubborn or fealess but as soon as he dies they take that morale test. Just an idea.

Crisis Suits- Make the shield generator not take up a hard point on the suits. Allow for vectored thrusters on"squads" instead of "monats". Access to Rail Rifles?

Stealthsuits-Always get +1 bonus to coversaves. Access to railrifles or sniper drones.

Fire Warriors-Access to special weapon drones and BS4 (Thanks Casper)enough said.

Carbines- Get rid of useless pinning rule and have it cut movement in half(No leadership test) if squad suffers a wound.

Photon Grenades-Lose "charge in" attack and counts as assaulting into difficult terrain.

Drones- Make them troops and give them Flamers(2 per squad max). Make drones fearless. No Heavy weapon drones,(Fluff excuse for limitation) they need a controller because no room for sophisticated AI. Marker Drones 20 pts.
Clarify that shield drones are extra invulnerable wounds and convey their invulnerable save onto the unit they are with. Whole unit gets the invulnerable in ranged attacks and rolls the saves at same time, remove all failed at same time starting with drones. If the unit started a saving roll with a shield drone then all get the save even if the drone is destroyed. Subsequent firing in that turn there is no save if no Shield drone. Drones only convey save on model with controller in CC.(Is that clear or confusing)

Markerlights-No longer increase BS. No longer can impose leadership negatives. Cover save is reduced by number of markerlight hits expended for "all" units that shoot at squad in the same round. MarkerLights still fire Seeker missiles.

Seeker Missles- Either give them AP1 or give them a blast option(S4 AP4).

Kroot- Options from Merc list? Armor Save 5+. Can infiltrate with Kroot Ox. UpDate the Cover rules to apply to all cover. Give them a rudimentry explosive charge that can take out tanks. Make their guns assault 1 Range 18" or give them fleet.

Vespids-Give them poison attacks +4 for regular +2 Strain Leaders(no insta-death poisons)

Pirahnas- Buyable Shield Generator option that makes them no longer open topped. Drones on Squadron become troops when seperated from Pirahna. Only one Pirahna may replace its gun drones with flamer drones(This would make them about perfect, actually ).
Either give them multi-meltas, the scout rule, or the deepstrike rule. SMs get all of these with better weaponry for less than the current Pirahna.Yes front armour 11 open-topped vs front armor 10 closed topped. Thats why I said either.(Thats probably to much but I'd pay for one of those abilities)

Devil Fish-Bust cannon becomes Long-barrled Burst Cannon. Fix KP issue on drones by making them a part of the squad being transported. They embark and disembark at same time as unit Devilfish was bought with.

Broadsides-Make them relentless without having to buy upgrade that takes up hard point(I'll happily pay for the Stablizers if already included In profile).

Hammerheads-Make the Ion Cannon Heavy 2 blast for 30pts. Increase Disruption pods to 15-20pts. Decoy launchers good against all immobilized results. Fix inconsistent secondary weapon system pricing. Flamer or flamer drone options in secondary weapons. RailGuns, Fine just the way they are.

Sniper Drones-Move to fast attack? Put six drones with 2 controllers in a squad and make the controllers Stealsuits so the unit is jet packing(Or is that level of cheese reserved only for Eldar and SMs)



Let me know if you like or not and what points these changes would be worth to you.

I played tau only for a little bit (fell in love with orks) but one thing that always got me was how the crisis suits all had BS 3, and plasma rifles were rapid-fire. I have a few nicely converted models lying around and a small 1000pt army that I play with once and twice (the rest I sold), and I eagerly await when codex updates make them a real competitor again.


Crisis Suits: they are the cream of the crop Tau Warriors, the suits them self are pretty expensive points-wise, and due to the new LOS rules have become far more fragile. I believe they should be BS 4 (5 with targeting upgrade). That would go a long way in making sure they get their shots in before they get slaughtered. Right now, a squad of twenty of my boys is far more effective against MEQs then three plasma equipped crisis suits in both shooting and assault, and they cost less point to boot!

Another idea I thought cool would be to give their vehicles the ability to either:

1) Move, disembark a unit, and continue movement

or

2) give their vehicles something akin to JSJ

When I see devilfish they just look like they would zip in, quickly drop their warriors, then zip off to where else they were needed. I think it would help the tau with their "mechanized combat" flavor. Right now, my battlewagon boyz are far more mechanized then any tau army I see, and that's just wrong.

Also, devilfish might be cheaper, and maybe give vehicles an item which lets them ignore the rules of firing only 1 main weapon a turn (since str. 5 is so measley)

Drones could be troop choices.

Also, maybe make their pulse rifles have a rapid fire range of 15" or make the carbine assault 2.

I don't know how I would change kroot. While it would be nice for the tau to have some decent close combat, you don't want them too good or it would ruin the whole point of the army.

Vespids... I don't know they are the flash-gits of the Tau; they have guns that look nice but are crappy in use.

One thing that would be cool is to have human auxiliaries in the main codex. You got some guard in my tau! You got some tau in my guard!

Oh and fire warriors need to be a little cheaper and maybe have the option for different weapons. Maybe give them items and the ability to break away/ hurry away from combat.

Essential, make them even shooter! Right now, my orks have a lot more shooty goodness then the tau, and that just seems wrong.

I think it would be neat if Tau could get a walker unit of some sort. I imagine something like a Sentinel that could slow down enemy assault troops, which would be really handy. It's hard to think how it would fit stylistically, though - maybe a battlesuit so oversized it doesn't count as infantry anymore?

I repeat the points I made in the other thread on the same topic.

There are several things I want to say about Tau and first I will set out my stall so readers know where I am coming from.

I haven’t played Tau in 5e as my army has been locked in a warehouse for over a year. So what follows is theoryhammer. Also, my codex has been locked up too so my memory of some of the detailed rules is hazy; forgive me if I have misremembered something.

I am only going to speak about Tau. I recognise other armies such as IG also need a make-over, however, each army should be dealt with separately.

Historically, Tau have always been an effective army, though not 1st rank, if used with care and skill. They depend on mobility and a combined arms firepower approach, to compensate for lack of assault capability and lack of heavy weapons in the FW squads.

I don’t want to see this change because the attraction of Tau is the differences compared to other kinds of armies. Improvements should be made within the existing framework of the suits and vehicles carrying the heavy firepower, and very limited assault troops.

There is a fundamental problem in the rules caused by the proliferation of Ld 10 armies and the huge morale gap between them and Ld7-8 armies. IMO the whole morale system of the game needs revision. That can’t be done in one codex.

Looking at specifically Tau issues, they have three core problems in 5e.

1. FW have become even more vulnerable to assault because assault has been improved a lot. Their basic 4+ save means the new cover rules are not a great help to them. The Troops scoring rule means you need to take more of them, leaving fewer points for the more powerful units. Their pulse rifle firepower has been reduced by the proliferation of the 4+ cover save. Range 30 weapon isn’t as useful as before since armies can start closer together and move faster.

2. Crisis suits are now over-costed because the JSJ tactic they depended on is less effective due to the lack of solid, LoS blocking cover. Their mobility compared to other infantry has been reduced because other infantry’s mobility has been increased. Their basic save isn’t that good, considering what small units they are. This could be remedied by putting more solid cover items out for a game, however it can’t be relied on because it isn’t structured into the rules.

3. Tau vehicles, while benefitting from increased resistance to damage as have all vehicles, have reduced ability to move and fire. This damages the mobility approach to tactics. They have become more vulnerable to assault because assaulters always hit the rear armour, and because assaulters can now move as fast as they do. The KP rule means that drones have become a liability rather than an asset.

It’s not all bad. Kroot are great. (Though they always were.)

I don’t want to sound like I am moaning too much.

Possible solutions

Fire Warriors
Increase the rapid fire range of the pulse rifle to 15 inches. This by itself would make it possible to manouevre effectively while still shooting, without requiring any other changes to points costs, or special rules. It is not such as huge change that it would make it impossible for assaulters to outmanoeuvre them.

Crisis Suits and Broadsides
Increase the unit size to 5 rather than 3, to allow more to be taken, and give them a free targetting array that doesn’t take up a slot. It would be nice also to make them a bit cheaper and faster-moving, but this may be over-egging the pudding. I remember the original Tau codex design notes, which said that originally Crisis suits could move 12 in both phases, and that made them too mobile.

Vehicles
Devilfish and Hammerheads should be given SMS to replace drones for a reduced points cost. They have become very expensive vehicles with all the necessary upgrades.

Stealth Suits seem fine and don’t need any changes.

Gundrones also seem fine. They would benefit from being able to include marker drones in the same unit, though doing this would reduce the need for Pathfinders and maybe lead to less varied armies.

Marker drones should be made cheaper, maybe 20 points instead of 30.

Sniper drones should probably be costed at 60 per unit rather than 80, to reflect the point that the whole unit dies if the leader is hit.

Pathfinders
I can’t think how to change them without overbalancing things. For example, making their Markerlights assault rather than heavy would be a big help, but probably too effective. Perhaps do that and increase the points cost for balance.

Vespids are rubbish and need a re-write. They are too expensive, too vulnerable and their guns are silly. A sensible revision of these factors would make them worth taking without them becoming overpowered. For example, 4+ save, gun range of 18, and points cost of 14.

Ethereals are too vulnerable. They should be given a built-in 3+ invulnerable save and give Morale 10 to all Tau units in LoS, and you should be allowed to take them as a squad which can be split up. For example, a unit of three as an HQ choice, which can be divided into three individuals and ride in a Fish for free, and be attached to FW squads. Making them an HQ slot helps balance things because it reduces the number of Suits you can take.

If Space Pope is kept as a special character, the stupid bodyguards should be lost and his chair should be given the same mobility as a Crisis suit, a free invulnerable save or some drones, all in one package. He should also have some decent special rules, maybe something about reducing enemy psychic powers, or a squad of Ethereals attached. The box set could easily be changed to suit.

I would like to see a couple more special characters. An elite Crisis leader would be a good one, and a tank commander similar to Sgt Chronus.

I expect a lot of these ideas will be criticised as over-powered, and some of them may be. It is just a post to open up debate by presenting some ideas.

@KK: I generally agree with your comments, which is why I watch the new Guard very carefully, as much of what they do for IG presages what they will do for Tau (and Eldar) in terms of how they will balance (shooty) GEQs in 5E.

Kilkrazy, why do you think kroot are great? I feel very much the opposite so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

MythicalMothman wrote:Kilkrazy, why do you think kroot are great? I feel very much the opposite so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Cheap
Decent firepower
Good cover save if put in woods
Large number of attacks on the charge

Make drones not counting as a kill point!

Make marker drones cheaper!

Some sort of war gear that works like a space marine locater beacon.

Kilkrazy wrote:

MythicalMothman wrote:Kilkrazy, why do you think kroot are great? I feel very much the opposite so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Cheap
Decent firepower
Good cover save if put in woods
Large number of attacks on the charge

^Exactly!

I agree more with Kilkrazy than I do focusedfire. Rewriting rules is always a challenge involving attributes beyond just being balanced. Adding a more capable hth unit breaks the spirit/playstyle of the army and is a common suggestion that makes me cringe.

I don't see the Tau as ever having been a 'top-tier' army. It is an army that wins by being good in only 2 of the 3 phases of the game turn.

The main problems I see confronting Tau are: the changes to the 5th edition rules involving running, true line of sight (TLoS), cover saves, and morale results from close combat. To a lesser extent the kill point (KP) system hurts the Tau more than lists with strong, versatile troops selections.

Of course, there are other changes that need to be made. Stealth suits always being in cover isn't as helpful as it used to be with the changes in assault grenades, vehicle drones giving up KPs aren't great, stealth drones are even more overpriced with the changes in wound allocation and drone controller rules, Vespids are still more rare than a primarch, and Fire Warriors are best used to ride in transports where they aren't contributing to the army's raison d'etre.

Unlike Guard, who have a wide variety of weapons, squads, and LD modifiers and unlike Eldar who have a wide variety of tailored units, I see the Tau army as one that will need more vision and imagination than slight points tweaks or changes in universal special rules to make a competitive, and more importantly, a fun army to play against friends and strangers.

Edit: spelling

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Adding a more capable hth unit breaks the spirit/playstyle of the army and is a common suggestion that makes me cringe.

That's why I think a unit similar to Sentinels would be good. Sentinels aren't something that will kill enemy squads in melee, but their armor values are enough to significantly slow down a lot of squads they get in assault with. Even huge kroot squads are pretty easy to sweeping advance, so light walkers seem like a better speed bump than any other units we have.

Well Vespids just need to get killier. Models that size really needn't be any tougher than they are, but with one shot each they won't ever really dent anything beyond one MSU marine unit before being wiped out.

The thing is, walkers just aren't something Tau build. With all the jumping and anti-g tech they have, its an approach not really in their philosophy IMHO.

I will agree that rules-wise such a thing might find a place in the Tau army.

Some of these ideas are based on giving the Tau better melee capability through new equipment or allies.

I would prefer to improve the shooting and mobility. It is more Tauey. For instance, rapid fire range FW would be able to move around and shoot assaulting units with a good chance of not being counter-charged, depending on how clever the two players were. This would add to the challenge for the enemy army as well.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Adding a more capable hth unit breaks the spirit/playstyle of the army and is a common suggestion that makes me cringe.

I disagree, given that Tau start with Kroot as Troops, Tau are a lot "fightier" than Guard.

Tau could gain:
- slightly better Kroot
- Assault Suits as Elite
- Monstrous Creature Ally as Heavy

And it wouldn't break the Tau army, as long as those options aren't mandatory. Most Tau players aren't going to take Assault Suits over Crisis Suits, nor Monsters of Railheads. Tau aren't going to suddenly bulk up on more Kroot, either.

But you might see the occasional Tau-led assault force for variety, simply because it would be possible. Sort of.

____

Kilkrazy wrote:Some of these ideas are based on giving the Tau better melee capability through new equipment or allies.

Exactly, and nothing wrong with that.

Have to disagree JohnHwang.

Any unit that doesn't have saves and poor LD will get decimated in HTH. Saying Kroot are "fightier" than Guard is comparing apples to crabapples. I've beaten storm troopers in HTH with Broadsides, but I wouldn't say that makes broadsides "fightier".

Taking assault suits would be better than crisis as elites simply because I can continue to buy crisis in the HQ slots. A unit with S5, 2A and the toughness/save they have are better than kroot unless I'm trying to recreate a scene from Zulu.

Have to agree with Kilkrazy, it is the movement, LD, and shooty units that need to be rethought, not adding new HTH units or beefing up Kroot.

And we return to O'Shovah Combat suits with looted powerfists and lightningclaws. I think we're on to something.

get rid of the tau and make it the kroot codex