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CaptKaruthors wrote:

The problem with swarm is that you dont have efficient tool to open armour box, if gaunts can carry melta,who will bother heavy vemon cannon on MCs?

I've seen tyranids in every incarnation of the game. When have they ever had an efficient tool to pop tanks? The answer is never. Massed attacks of anything that can hurt AV10 rears works. Just the logistics of your opponent moving his units becomes problematic if you are swarmed.

We do have cheap MCs in last edition and that's what we use to hunt tanks, not swarm.

Well how about surrounding that 35pt Rhino with the 200pts of Hormagaunts, and then preventing emergency disembarkation when they Glance it to Wreckage? Then you get to destroy the vehicle and the troops cowering within it.

Throw in some Auras of Despair from local Genestealers and maybe you get lucky and the units in the vehicles fail their pinning tests.

Sometimes not causing AP1 hits is good, from the perspective of not causing explosion damage on your own troops.

Here is the next list I intend to test against IG:

Hive Tyrant w/ Lashwhip-Bonesword, Scything Talons, Ancient Enemy, Life Leach, Paroxysm, Regeneration, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles = 240

2 Tyrant Guard = 120

-Elites-

3 Hive Guard = 150

3 Hive Guard = 150

2 Venomthropes = 110

-Troops-

18 Termagaunts = 90

18 Termagaunts = 90

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Toxin, Adrenal, Regeneration, Cluster Spines = 225

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Toxin, Adrenal, Regeneration, Cluster Spines = 225

-Heavy Support-

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regeneration, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles, Cluster Spines = 295

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regeneration, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles, Cluster Spines = 295


Probably going to crash and burn. I may do a battle report.

I like the list but it looks a bit slow - can you get to their lines by turn 2?

Well, my thoughts are thus, and everything I could be saying may not work out in practice, but I figure it's worth a shot.

The goal of the list is to put as much on the table that is either getting cover saves from each other, or at the very least get cover saves from the Venomthropes, The idea being that it can be very resilient to an IG gun line. The idea to put regeneration on everything plays into that as well. It forces the IG player to fully concentrate on a single Tyranid MC at a time. Something I actually want to happen. I can aford to loose a Tyrannofex or a Tervigon on turn one if it means that the rest of my force is still shooting and advancing, and if by some miracle the beast does live, then I have a pretty decent opportunity to regenerate it's wounds.

In playing against IG so often, I have realized that the real killers of walking tyranids are Lascannons. Nobody fields Missile Launchers in an IG army, and most field massive Autocannons. Well, I can FNP myself against the "lighter" shooting. But if I use a Tyrannofex to give my Tervigon a 4+ Cover Save from outflanking or scouting vendettas, how long can it last? It's an interesting question.

I figure I am on a good footing in the game if I still have half the big creatures on the table by turn three and they are in the middle of the field, because hopefully by then I had taken out the Vendetta support, and I am putting cluster spine templates on Guardsman.

The list can still hang against other lists for all the reasons that Shep has mentioned. IG and Space Wolves are the toughest nuts to crack, and hopefully I have created a list that can address at least the IG portion.

Wouldn't the Imperial Guard player be concentrating firepower on each Monstrous Creature until it's dead anyways?

Mahu wrote:Well, my thoughts are thus, and everything I could be saying may not work out in practice, but I figure it's worth a shot.

The goal of the list is to put as much on the table that is either getting cover saves from each other, or at the very least get cover saves from the Venomthropes, The idea being that it can be very resilient to an IG gun line. The idea to put regeneration on everything plays into that as well. It forces the IG player to fully concentrate on a single Tyranid MC at a ....

I think the autocannon IG will first try to take down your hive guards, if they got first turn you wont have FNP on them, after that what left offensive power in your list are only two tyrannofex pop 4 S10 shots at BS3 per turn, even they do destroy some armours it wont be enough.

there is some mathhammer in this post
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/278511.page

against AV12 hive guard is 3.6 times point efficiency as tyrannofex(that's why IG will target them first). the damage output by a tyrannofex in 6turns is
6 rounds = 12 shots = 6 hits
AV10 6 pen, 1.98 destroyed.
AV12 1.02 glance, 4.02 pen, 1.32 destroyed.
AV14 1.02 glance, 2.04 pen, 0.66 destroyed.

which means let alone tyrannofex wont do much ,if the opponent just igorne them ,their points will be totally waste. so if that's all the offensive power left after hiveguards dead, this list wont do so great against IG IMHO.

ED209 wrote:I think the autocannon IG will first try to take down your hive guards, if they got first turn you wont have FNP on them, after that what left offensive power in your list are only two tyrannofex pop 4 S10 shots at BS3 per turn, even they do destroy some armours it wont be enough.

Hence Mahu's nested TMCs. 2 Tyrannofexes should provide cover for the Tervigons; the Hive Guard should be completely hidden behind the wall of big bugs (with little bugs out front covering the "I see it between the legs!" issue), at least on turn 1.

Have you thought about changing the Tfexi - to regular Carni's with Stranglthorn cannons? Have 3 of them in one unit. They would cover more space providing a broader front for cover saves AND it would only take one unit to give all of them FNP or a 5+ cover save.

Janthkin wrote:Hence Mahu's nested TMCs. 2 Tyrannofexes should provide cover for the Tervigons; the Hive Guard should be completely hidden behind the wall of big bugs (with little bugs out front covering the "I see it between the legs!" issue), at least on turn 1.

That will depend on the looks of those DIY T-fex ,if you use the trygon base ,it will push the hive guard far back from the front line, also I wont count on completely blocking LOS, even somehow you achieve that ,the formation will be too vulnerable to blast damage.

Here is my Tyrannofex, I still need to convert another one:

Janthkin wrote:

ED209 wrote:I think the autocannon IG will first try to take down your hive guards, if they got first turn you wont have FNP on them, after that what left offensive power in your list are only two tyrannofex pop 4 S10 shots at BS3 per turn, even they do destroy some armours it wont be enough.

Hence Mahu's nested TMCs. 2 Tyrannofexes should provide cover for the Tervigons; the Hive Guard should be completely hidden behind the wall of big bugs (with little bugs out front covering the "I see it between the legs!" issue), at least on turn 1.

Well, if the Hive Guard are enough of a priority (and everyone I've played them against has realized quickly how strong and they are), the Vendettas will open up into them, and I can't imagine a Tfex tall and bulky enough to completely hide the entire HG from a Vendetta's point of view. Particularly given that they can maneuver a huge amount (if IG is going first they'll use that Scout move to get into an advantageous firing position, plus a 6" move during the first turn). I can't picture a scenario that you can keep them completely hidden, 100%, without some LOS blocking terrain.

It occurs to me that Hive Guard would be the kings of 4th edition, the way LOS worked then. Park them behind some MCs or size 2 or 3 area terrain and fire with impunity.

And in terms of people's testing armies focusing on MC's instead of the huge swarms of bugs, I can't speak for anyone else, but personally that's what I have. Between my Nids and things I've acquired from other people, I have around 4 Hive Tyrants, half a dozen Tyrant guard (which will turn into Hive Guard), 8ish Carnifexes (which may turn into a combo of Cfexes, Tfexes, and Tervies), over a dozen Warriors, a pile of Genestealers, and only around 30 Termagants. I don't have enough Termagants to even reliably field a Tervigon now, much less 2, and I certainly don't have the models for giant Termagant or Hormagaunt or Gargoyle swarms of 100+ critters. I'd love to be able to field a Nid army using at least mostly models I already have. And since my initial testing has been to gear up for Adepticon, if it turns out that competitive Nids involves tons and tons of ankle-biters, I won't be able to purchase, assemble, paint, and practice with an army like that enough to be comfortable taking it to the 40k Champs at Adepticon. So that's the reason that my testing has been focused on heavy MC so far. That's what worked in 4th, so that's what I have (and what other people have when I take over their collections). Other people may have their own reasons. Mine have been driven by the fact that if I need to pick up 30-40 more Hormagaunts, 30+ Gargoyles, and 45-50 more Termagants, it'll have to be a back-burner type of army. Maybe by 'Ard Boyz, but certainly not for March.

sirisaacnuton wrote:Well, if the Hive Guard are enough of a priority (and everyone I've played them against has realized quickly how strong and they are), the Vendettas will open up into them, and I can't imagine a Tfex tall and bulky enough to completely hide the entire HG from a Vendetta's point of view. Particularly given that they can maneuver a huge amount (if IG is going first they'll use that Scout move to get into an advantageous firing position, plus a 6" move during the first turn). I can't picture a scenario that you can keep them completely hidden, 100%, without some LOS blocking terrain.

This would be a win-win scenario for the 'Nid player. This side of 9 Vendettas, they won't be able to put enough fire into a Hive Guard brood (in cover) to kill them all off (each Vendetta only averages about 1 wound), and those lascannons are a much bigger threat to the Tfex standing in front. It's things like autocannons & multilasers which really destroy Hive Guard, not single-shot weapons.

And in terms of people's testing armies focusing on MC's instead of the huge swarms of bugs, I can't speak for anyone else, but personally that's what I have. Between my Nids and things I've acquired from other people, I have around 4 Hive Tyrants, half a dozen Tyrant guard (which will turn into Hive Guard), 8ish Carnifexes (which may turn into a combo of Cfexes, Tfexes, and Tervies), over a dozen Warriors, a pile of Genestealers, and only around 30 Termagants. I don't have enough Termagants to even reliably field a Tervigon now, much less 2, and I certainly don't have the models for giant Termagant or Hormagaunt or Gargoyle swarms of 100+ critters. I'd love to be able to field a Nid army using at least mostly models I already have. And since my initial testing has been to gear up for Adepticon, if it turns out that competitive Nids involves tons and tons of ankle-biters, I won't be able to purchase, assemble, paint, and practice with an army like that enough to be comfortable taking it to the 40k Champs at Adepticon. So that's the reason that my testing has been focused on heavy MC so far. That's what worked in 4th, so that's what I have (and what other people have when I take over their collections). Other people may have their own reasons. Mine have been driven by the fact that if I need to pick up 30-40 more Hormagaunts, 30+ Gargoyles, and 45-50 more Termagants, it'll have to be a back-burner type of army. Maybe by 'Ard Boyz, but certainly not for March.

Well, yes. This is how GW likes to do things, after all. Don't throw your TMCs away, though - in 6th or 7th edition, they'll be dominant again.

Except that the lascannons instakill the hive guard, so they only need to do one wound each, right?

No they dont - the HG are T6 with a 4+ save and 2 W's. They arent MC's.

Hive Guard are T6 so nope, they'd need at least 2 wounds

I actually suspect that the IG would concentrate on the Tervigons first to remove scoring units and the synergy of the Gaunt Screen, so the goal is to use the Tyrannofexs as 4+ cover to the Tervigon. Hive Guard will get a 4+ cover regardless, so it isn't absolutely necessary to give them FNP.

Ah right, sorry was thinking of zoanthropes.

Janthkin wrote:
This would be a win-win scenario for the 'Nid player. This side of 9 Vendettas, they won't be able to put enough fire into a Hive Guard brood (in cover) to kill them all off (each Vendetta only averages about 1 wound), and those lascannons are a much bigger threat to the Tfex standing in front. It's things like autocannons & multilasers which really destroy Hive Guard, not single-shot weapons.

Good point. It would be a horrendous waste of Vendetta fire to try to go after those guys with no supporting fire.

However, I'm still not seeing a way to keep the Hive Guard from being at least a little visible. If they do have some number of Vendettas (and who doesn't), they can shoot down whichever MC won't get cover. After all, even moderately tall things in front of them won't cover 50% from a Vendetta's POV. So as soon as one MC (who likely won't be getting cover) is shot down, now there's a hole to pour Autocannon/Multilaser fire at the Hive Guard. It has the advantage of denying the first turn "Fire on my Target" order, as it relies on the Vendettas shooting first. But after all the games of 5th I've played, I can't imagine a deployment that completely denies LOS to even 6 Hive Guard by using other models. The models generally have too much empty space on their bases for that (the TMC that currently have models would have huge gaps between them, even when base-to-base). It would be quite a job staggering them to make a solid wall. And how many points is that? 2 Tfexes and 2 Tervigons plus some number of Hive Guard is not an insignificant number of points already, and there's no way those 4 models are fully blocking LOS. Unless conversions for them have them stretching completely across their bases, taking up every bit of space, I'm just not seeing it being practical.

If people have actually managed to pull this off, by all means let me know what combination of models you used to achieve it. But as a theoretical exercise, I just can't see it working practically when the slightest view of a toe or hand or shoulder between two bodies lets the entire squad be targetted.

I don't think you can avoid the Hive Guard as targets, but I don't think they are super critical to the battle plan either.

Which battle plan? My plan was to try to break some vehicles with shooting while marching across the battle field until charges can be declared all over the place. I've found Hive Guard are hugely critical for that...without them I pretty much can't put the brakes on the amount of fire coming toward me, or get things out of vehicles prior to assault so I can assault the squishy contents instead of the box.

I may just be approaching the situation all wrong, but that's the battle plan I've been trying out, and Hive Guard are hugely make-or-break for me.

I mean that by saying that Hive Guard are not critical to my battle plan past turn three. Hopefully by then I had put enough of a dent in my opponents army and I am in assault range with my TMCs.

Mahu wrote:I mean that by saying that Hive Guard are not critical to my battle plan past turn three. Hopefully by then I had put enough of a dent in my opponents army and I am in assault range with my TMCs.

this

Shep wrote:
Autocannons have been wrecking my hive guard, especially when under 'fire on my target' orders. Just because they are getting a cover save, doesn't mean that 39 autocannon hits per turn at 2k points doesn't just put nine hive guard back in the case before they've had a chance to fire.

And as to the semi-mech thing... I agree, my space wolves gunlines have foot long fang units and my IG armies have HWS. But they aren't the problem. Nids COULD throw stranglethorn cannons at those units while moving forward, or outflank/infiltrate some genestealers to threaten them. What is shutting down my nids is the fact that they have one slot with ranged anti-armor, and one slot with 265 point combination ranged/CC. Could I get a meltagun on my podding warriors? How about something in fast attack that isn't a single -1 on damage table lascannon for 170 points? Until I can get 'real' fire support spread over at least three different FOC slots... then this army is an aggro deep striker army unless you just want to give up games against any gunline.


As far as what would make a ground and pound nid army work, they just need more long range (at least 36" assault) consistent tank kill.

Robin chickened out on the venom cannon, its really sad that I'd actually prefer the two shot strength 10 glancing hit only gun that we used to have. Give me 3 of those in heavy, three in fast attack and a couple units of hive guard and I'll deploy across from a gunline... until then, I'll just reserve and pod in. HVC should have just straight up been two strength 9 shots with no -1. Regular VCs should have been autocannons. If you think that would make nids a gunline, then you haven't seen what some of these space wolf and IG armies can do.

through all the reading in this post I think the main reason shep quit his former list is because after Hive guards dead he doesnt have any efficient anti-vehicle units ,and I think your list is very similar to what shep used before ,thus same situation,against a ture gunline you will unlikely get your charge without damage some vehicles first, they will shoot you off the table.

I agree ED209 - trying to compete against a gunline with Bug guns is like taking a knife to a gunfight. Swamp 'em with gribblies that can pen armor - thats my take. The problem this creates is extended movement phases that are prohibitive to tournies.

I have to go back and respond to a bunch of stuff since I've been gone, but I just want to add that another problem with trying to screen hive guard completely out of LOS is their range.

Any mech gunline can deploy no further than 5" on table if they want to. In pitched battle (best case scenario for hive guard), that puts 31" of range between anything they can field and the hive guard. Even if you deploy at 12" you don't have a turn 1 shot. If you deployed a full 8" back to get behind a double-stack of sideways valkyrie based MCs, then you've got 39" to cover... minus your range of 24" gives you 15". Two movement phases possibly through terrain, and only one run roll could very easily have you completely out of range even on turn 2.

Just believe me when i say that if that happens, it is a total disaster.

Someone mentioned that the dakkafex is now the hive guard, and that is pretty spot on. Costs more but does WAY more.

The only problem is where is the boom-fex or sniper-fex? We have the terri-bad heavy venom cannon carnifex, that costs more and does less to gunlines, or we have the VERY costly t-fex, which does more, at about 80% additional cost.

The third factor to consider when making analogies to the old codex, was how many tourney regulars were having any trouble at all beating a 4th edition nidzilla list in 5th edition? I know I wasn't...

Nids didn't need to get a side-grade for me to feel confident bringing them to a tourney, they needed a clear upgrade.

At the Broadside Bash I played against a guy with 30 Warriors in pods.

Made for quite an interesting army.

Shep, what do you think of Onslaught on the Tervigons?

As in, you cast Onlsaught on the Hive Guard, they get 6" + D6 and then fire. It has the potential of extending the practical average range of them to 34". Sure, you loose FNP on them, but if it has the potential of taking out the ranged threats to the Tyranids on turn one, it might be worth it.

Shep wrote: If you deployed a full 8" back to get behind a double-stack of sideways valkyrie based MCs, then you've got 39" to cover... minus your range of 24" gives you 15". Two movement phases possibly through terrain, and only one run roll could very easily have you completely out of range even on turn 2.

Absolutely. Main reason I plop my HG on the line, so long as they're at least toeing some cover. Hopefully cover saves + T6 is enough (though when it's not enough is when the HG are most critical, unfortunately).

Shep wrote:
The third factor to consider when making analogies to the old codex, was how many tourney regulars were having any trouble at all beating a 4th edition nidzilla list in 5th edition? I know I wasn't...

Nids didn't need to get a side-grade for me to feel confident bringing them to a tourney, they needed a clear upgrade.

This. 4th ed Nids weren't absolutely terribad in 5th (at least at first, when Orks and Daemons ran around a lot) but they got progressively worse and worse with the newer 5th releases. But yes, they needed an improvement, not the same army with different models.

@Mahu: I like Onslaught. I've used it a few times for getting the Zoeys into a first-turn Lance shot when I get to go first. Opposing LR right on the line, set up directly across from me for max-speed delivering TH/SS, the Onslaught get them into first turn shoot range. Sometimes very big. However, most of the time I end up taking it along with Catalyst, and then using Catalyst almost always if not exclusively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Corollary: The old 4th edition Nidzilla didn't care one bit about synapse, at least after the FAQ that decided Fearless things don't test at all. That's very different now. If your long-range shooters suddenly have to shoot the nearest target and your Fexes gain Rage, that's an issue. Synapse is much more important than it ever was for Nidzilla, yet another reason a 1-to-1 analogy doesn't quite hold up.

Speaking of Onslaught, it might be something to use it on a brood of Carnifex: Give them Heavy Venom Cannons to make trouble as they advance, and give them Crushing Claws to make sure that they get between 6-8 attacks on the charge against whatever vehicles they can catch.

But speaking of hordes, I'm pretty sure at least one player here (Redbeard) had discovered how to move an Ork horde quickly, so I don't see why there should be problems with Tyranid hordes in time-crunch situations.

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of Onslaught, it might be something to use it on a brood of Carnifex: Give them Heavy Venom Cannons to make trouble as they advance, and give them Crushing Claws to make sure that they get between 6-8 attacks on the charge against whatever vehicles they can catch.

But speaking of hordes, I'm pretty sure at least one player here (Redbeard) had discovered how to move an Ork horde quickly, so I don't see why there should be problems with Tyranid hordes in time-crunch situations.

Crushing Claws and Heavy venom cannons are the worst two things you can give to a carnifex.