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Shadows of the Warp combined with the Deathleaper (JAWWs has a 24 inch range) should effectively shut it down. 3d6, pick the 2 highest with a -2 to LD on average...

I think youre right though - JAWWS isnt something we need to build for but rather just deal with.

Shep:

Thanks for the summary. I've been digging around, but I haven't read the INAT FAQ for Tyranids yet. My group doesn't use it, but I figure I have to know it so I can understand some of the conversations around here. Still, now that you put it like that, it seems like a good idea.

Back to the problem of bringing a shooting gallery for the Imperial Guard, something that occurred to me on another thread was that many people were ranking the Imperial Guard as the most competitive army because they were the most flexible: S10 large blasts work pretty well against anybody (go quantity!).

But in another thread I railed against the Bastion Breacher ammo for the Medusa precisely because they weren't flexible; they're good against large vehicles and bunkers, but not so much better and considerably less flexible than the usual Medusa ammunition.

Given that there's two approaches to dealing with an army that's going to be engaging in massive shooting, either mechanizing everything to mitigate the number of soft targets and maximize the number of hard targets, or putting everything in reserve, and that Tyranids categorically have no armoured units, and putting everything in reserve is either prohibited or unwise, I thought it might be something to see what could be done with Tyranids to survive that first turn salvo.

My thought is this: rather than trying to do something fancy, give those degenerate sophicates a healthy dose of pure and unreasoning violence.

Pending checking the numbers when I get home to my books, I thought:

HQ
Tervigons (x2)
Both with Regenerate, Catalyst, and Crushing Claws if possible.

Elites
Venomthrope x3

Troops
Termagants w/Mycetic Spore (x1)
Tervigon w/Regenerate, Catalyst

Fast Attack
Spore Mines (x3)

Heavy Support
Carnifex Broods
w/Basic Carnifexes, Screamer Killers (nothing fancy, maybe Regenerate).

The idea here is that the broods of Carnifexes are cheap, as cheap as possible where broods of Monstrous Creatures are involved (2 each?). They start on the board backed up by the Tervigons and Venomthropes.

Each Tervigon catalyzes a brood of Carnifex who run at the enemy, right up the middle. So they have cover saves, Defensive Grenades, Feel No Pain, and so on. They're shock troops, giving the enemy something to shoot at. Maybe Regenerate if the points are available; like I said I haven't checked. The Termagants start off the board in a Mycetic Spore, so they're safe, and other scoring units can be generated by the Tervigons as needed.

So each Brood of Carnifexes has a supporting cast of Tervigons and Venomthropes. The Spore Mines are landed behind or amongst the enemy, to try to rear hits, and to blow up any Infantry Platoons.

So, something like 6 Carnifex, 3 Tervigons, 3 Venomthropes, for nine targets in total, in cover, with the meanest most dangerous ones with Feel No Pain, and broods of Termagants ready to be generated as objectives become available. Maybe a Brood of Biovores to keep up the rain of Spore Mines.

Nurglitch, I don't really see what that changes. If first turn means the IG can wipe 6 Hive Guards and an MC off the table before they even move (and they can), I dunno how the Tervigons are going to hold up either.

If the Tervigons drop, you have no synapse and almost no troops.

gorgon:

The notion (I can't really call it an "idea") is that the Tervigons hide behind the Carnifex broods. Which are Fearless, have Instinctive Behaviour: Feed, and in Cover from the Venomthropes. They can kill the Tervigons, but that leaves the Carnifexes free to rampage. There's three Tervigons (maybe more?) to provide some redundancy there, and Dominion might actually see some use in patching up holes between the three groups.

I also imagine, having not checked the numbers, that Carnifexes are tougher, both in Saving throw and Toughness and Wounds, than Hive Guard. Rather than slowing down to shoot, the Carnifexes just run.

Basically target saturation.

That's hopefully after the Imperial Guard have been softened up with Spore Mines.

I believe you're over 2000 already.

If you can completely block LOS to the Tervigons, I guess you're in business. Otherwise there's not much difference -- T6, 6 wounds (for 3 HG), and a 4+ cover save. Regular save is a pip better.

If the IG player can remove your synapse, he's going to give you some problems steering those Carnifexes or contesting objectives with them.

I also think you need to read up on Spore Mine clusters. They don't do what you think.

I've been out of the tourny scene for a few months but what are these guard armies taking that wipes out 6 hive guard and a 6 wound mc turn 1 from range?

Khornatedemon wrote:I've been out of the tourny scene for a few months but what are these guard armies taking that wipes out 6 hive guard and a 6 wound mc turn 1 from range?

Manticores, Medusas, Vendettas, Hydras, Leman Russ Vanquishers

Khornatedemon wrote:I've been out of the tourny scene for a few months but what are these guard armies taking that wipes out 6 hive guard and a 6 wound mc turn 1 from range?

Ok, on saturday, this is what did it...

2x hydras
1x manticore
4x HWS with autocannon
3x vendettas with heavy bolters
psyker battle squad
3 infantry squads with autocannons
7 chimera multi-lasers


On turn 2 I got to eat 8 meltaguns on bring it down orders from two suicidal meltagun CCS. Another round of that same shooting plus those meltaguns dropped two tervigons with catalyst and took swarmlord out. I never touched the vendettas, and that alone was just a death sentence.

Hmmm - Im not sure any list would have a good game against that. What kind of list would give that IG list a run for its money? 41 Heavy weapons UGGGH

kaiservonhugal wrote:Hmmm - Im not sure any list would have a good game against that. What kind of list would give that IG list a run for its money? 41 Heavy weapons UGGGH

haha, kinda how I've been feeling. The good news is... outside of the lascannons on the vendettas, the wounds taken on the hive guard would be cut by 66% if they were pointed at t-fexes. that only does 4 wounds to the six wound MC...

The wounds caused to my mawloc would be cut by 50%... unless of course they were lascannons, but even then, those lascannon wounds would be cut by 33% thanks to the venomthrope. Even better, he shoots at my venomthropes and it takes him all three vendettas just to kill my MSU venomthrope units.

Looks like i probably still lose a t-fex on the top of one. But you just have to hope that the other two t-fexes can temporarily shut down two vendettas (hopefully permanently silencing one of them).

If he choose to take out both of my tervigons on turn 1 I'd be in a different kind of trouble, but at least i'd have 6 rupture shots headed for his vendettas. They may need 4+ covers from t-fexes to survive at all actually. if i managed that, then I might hope to keep them up...

Now that I think about it, its still between 12-15 wounds on cover save having tervigons. they might need to be reserved.... ughh

ORDERS
bring it down x2 causes 2 wounds

SHOOTING
hydras cause 1.67 wounds

2x HWS cause 1.33 wounds

PBS and manticore get .56 wounds

three single autocannons get .22, .22, .22

Lets call that one dead tervigon

seven chimeras get 2.63 wounds

three vendettas get 4.78 wounds (5+ save from venomthrope on lascannon)

tervigon number two R.I.P.

GG... even if i can get three kill shots with t-fexes, it isn't hard for me to believe the rest of the IG army can kill 20 termagants in 5 turns.

I'm starting to feel like Robin might have gone a little too far with IG, or not far enough with nids... INAT isn't helping either. I can't reserve out against IG or I'll come in completely piece meal and get dismantled because I can't stack or reserve my hive commanders. And basically anything i deploy against a seriously competitive IG gunline gets scooped off table if I can't seize the initiative. Hmmm...

Shep wrote:I'm starting to feel like Robin might have gone a little too far with IG, or not far enough with nids... INAT isn't helping either.

+1 I just haven't seen a way that Nids can build to handle our new IG overlords yet. Doesn't mean its not out there, but it sure seems tough to find.

How about fielding a mawloc. I haven't read the INAT ruling but seeing how his large blast is resolved before he actually arrives, and if the IG is running mystics they will be clumped up to get the maximum benefit, he could cause some havoc. Even more so if some of those vehicles can't move out of the way. Just a thought.

I think GW realized they took IG and space wolves way overboard. I guess the collective complaining of many an IG player for the 4-5 years before the new dex got them more then anyone hoped for. They make us eldar guys now look like that monk who set himself on fire.

gorgon:

Right, back home with my books. You're right, I was thinking 4th edition Spore Mines. They work even better in 5th edition because you can use them to deny your opponent deployment space. Think about it: you can only deploy 1" away from them. If they hurt anyone then that's just gravy.

Regarding the list, I expect it is over ~2000pts as I don't have the Tyranid point values memorized yet. Still, I'd have to check them anyways, so I suppose it doesn't matter. Take two:

HQ
Tervigon
w/Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regenerate, Catalyst

Tervigon
w/Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Regenerate, Catalyst

Elites
Venomthrope

Venomthrope

Troops
Tyranid Warriors (x3)
w/Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands

Tyranid Warriors (x3)
w/Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands

Fast Attack
Spore Mine Cluter (x6)

Spore Mine Cluster (x6)

Spore Mine Cluster (x6)

Heavy Support
Carnifex Brood (x2)
w/Adrenal Gland, Frag Spines

Carnifex Brood (x2)
w/Adrenal Gland, Frag Spines

Carnifex Brood (x2)
w/Adrenal Gland, Frag Spines

By my calculations (someone please check this), this comes out to 2000pts on the dot. So only two prongs, but you get to use the Spore Mines to eliminate problems like refused flanks, deploying as far away from you as humanly possible, deploying with convenient corridors of fire, and so on.

HQ
2x 225p = 550p

Elite
2x 55p = 110p

Troops
2x 3x 45p = 290p


FA
3x 6x 10p = 180p

HS
3x 2x 175p = 1050p

I get 2180 points sum from this.

Mellon:

How do you get 290 points? If each Warrior is 45pts, and there's three Warriors in two Broods, then it should come out to 270 points.

The Warriors should be 35pts each, with Rending Claws replacing Devourers for free, and +5pts for Adrenal Glands. So 105pts per squad, for 210 points in total on Troops.

That still puts the list at 100pts over 2000. So lose the Adrenal Glands from the Warriors and four Spore Mines (1 from the first two, 2 from the third).

If you want stackability, you can get it...you just have to have lictors/ 2nd tyrant in play early. Lictors +1 stacks with Hive Tyrant's +1. If you are playing the reserves game you might have to try a Ninja Tau-esque approach. Additionally, I'd like to know what these IG lists are taking myself. I haven't had much trouble vs. Bugs at all. My list looks like this:

HQ:

Command squad w/ 2 meltas, AC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

TROOPS:

PCS w/ 2 meltas, Flamer
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man squad w/ PG, LC, PW, commissar with PW
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

10 man vet squad with 3 meltas
Mounted in Chimmy w/ HF

6 man special weapons team w/ 2 meltas, flamer

ELITES:

6 man PBS
Mounted in chimmy w/ HF

HEAVY SUPPORT:

2 Hydras

Manticore w/ HF

Eradicator w/ Hull HF, 2 plasmacannons

FAST ATTACK:

Vendetta

Vendetta

Banewolf w/ HF

That's 1850pts. Handles bugs with no problems.

I'm in the same boat with not being able to figure out any way to take down IG if they go first. I went second against a decent IG list the other day and got absolutely massacred. It was awful. I shudder to think what it would be like against a tuned tournament army. I agree about the ridiculous imbalance between IG and Nids. I can't imagine a Nid army that can go 50/50 with a strong IG list. And a big problem is that the Nids have to army build with IG specifically in mind, whereas the IG lists that are strong against Nids are strong against all kinds of stuff. Never mind the extra monkey wrench that Nids have to sweat over...whether they'll show up to a table with 2+ JotWW. Or trying to address these issues while being mindful of psyker hate. It's brutal.

I first dismissed T-fexes as horrendously overpriced when I read them, but I came around and gave them a shot. Felt like I handicapped my army spending so many points on something so underwhelming. So I shelved them and looked for alternatives. Well, some more thinking on the matter (and reading some discussions here, including Shep's) led me to try them again. And again, not even close to being worth 265 apiece. I just can't see them making any contribution that justifies the huge pile of points spent on them.

Their best showing was against IG who didn't target them until late (prioritized Synapse). They accounted for 1 immobilized Vendetta, a LC off another, a wrecked Chimera and wrecked LR, and finally a wrecked Vendetta way late, after there was no Synapse left and the remnants of the scoring units were wandering off. Not a terrible showing, but certainly not enough to justify spending 530 points on the pair of them, especially when one spent a turn shooting at the remnants of a suicide melta squad thanks to LD7 IB-Lurk.

Another game, against Marines saw one miss a LR and the other shake a LR on turn 1. On turn 2, one was dead (TH/SS fleeting out of a LR one one side, infiltrating fleeting TH/SS on the other...nowhere to go) and the other failed to kill a LR. On turn 3, he was in combat, and on turn 4 he was dead.

I can't see how their contribution could possibly justify their point cost, unless each one manages at least one pen-5/6 every shooting phase.

Shep wrote:
swarmlord
3x tyrant guard with boneswords
venomthrope
venomthrope
venomthrope
tervigon with crushing claws adrenal glands toxin sacs and catalyst
tervigon with crushing claws adrenal glands toxin sacs and catalyst
10x termagants
10x termagants
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines
tyrannofex with rupture cannon and cluster spines

This list may survive first turn shooting from the Guard, but then what does it do back? The Tervigons, Swarmloard, and Guard run forward, the Tervs Catalyst and make Termagants, and the T-fexes...destroy one vehicle, immobilize another, and shake a third (on average)? And that's even if you still have all 3. IG has no particular reason to shoot at much else. After the Venomthropes get cleared out, T-fex is the only real priority. The army eats just about as much shooting on turn 2 (and probably without the Thropes at this point), and close to as much on turn 3. There's almost nothing to whittle down enemy shooting beyond those three T-fexes, and they can only do so much. In an objective mission, they'd barely even have to look at the 2 Tervs and 20 Term (plus whatever else gets made) to blow them away and leave it with no scoring units, then they just need to valiantly protect one objective and one Troop, or be ready to send the Vendettas to distant objectives. And aside from the Swarmlord and Guard, what does it do against infantry armies? 18" S5 AP- pie plates can only do so much.

My last playtest game with IG almost made me scrap my idea of playing Nids at Adepticon, and switching back to Daemons. I just hate the 1/3 chance for the Daemon book to screw me over. At this point, I'm about ready to just roll with what I feel is a strong Nid army against a lot of builds, and hope to either dodge IG or get super lucky, and also to dodge JotWW. Basically, I'm wondering whether the odds of hitting IG or Jaws is better or worse than 1 in 3.

What I've been trying to test (played a lot of different builds, but this is the skeleton):
Prime with Boneswords, Poison
3x Warriors with Boneswords, Poison, FC
10 Termagants
Tervigon with Poison, FC, Catalyst
3x Hive Guard
3x Hive Guard
3x Zoanthropes

From here, I've tested several different things. One is a Swarmlord + 2 Guard with Lash Whips. This guy seems almost necessary for handling some stuff. The Warriors can butcher things like Nobz, and maybe TWC if there aren't too many SS's, but the Swarmlord has been my go-to for really nasty things like Waaghing Gazgul, TH/SS Termies, TWC with SS, etc. I like him, but he is a boatload of points. In builds where I don't run him, I typically have a 2nd Tervigon and 2nd unit of Termagants (and maybe an extra Prime).

Then I've been playing around with the Heavies. In addition to testing the pair of T-fexes (haven't tried out 3 yet), I've also tested 3 Carnifexes with 2x Devourers, 3 Fexes with 1x Devourer and 1x Heavy VC, and 2x Trygon 1x Mawloc. Of these, the Dakkafexes have performed the best for me so far, but offer very little to the IG match up. I tried the HVC list with IG in mind (those plus the 3 elite units seems the best AT we'll do without T-fexes), but I didn't like them. They're unimpressive at opening up vehicles (even Rhinos), and the loss of one Devourer makes the anti-infantry roll much less impressive. With the 2 Trygons 1 Mawloc, I never felt like any of it did as much. The Mawloc appearing managed to eat a couple of HWS members one time, 2 Scouts another, scattered completely off another. The Trygons loved to scatter toward something besides their primary target, and then fail the IB test and charge something random. None of them were terrible, but they didn't do as much for me as the Dakkafexes. And against IG they were just fail, especially when I was stuck going 2nd. Burrowed the Mawloc on 1 and left the Trygons in reserve. By the top of 2, Swarmlord was gunned down (there goes the +1 to reserve) and thanks to the Officer of the Fleet, nothing came in on bottom of 2. By the time bottom of 3 rolled around, the game was about over. And I only got the Mawloc (thanks to Officer again). It ate 2 HWT. Next turn everything was dead but the 2 Trygons that showed up. Lost one at top of 5, the other at top of 6. Horrendous tabling.

I'm thinking about something like this, and just hope I don't play JotWW or competent IG:

Prime, Boneswords, Poison
3 Warriors, Boneswords, Poison, FC
Tervigon, Catalyst, Poison, FC
Tervigon, Catalyst, Poison, FC
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
3 Zoanthropes
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
Carnifex, 2x Devourers
Carnifex, 2x Devourers
Carnifex, 2x Devourers

Few points left to play with. Could make the 3 Fexes into 2 T-fexes with some points, but I lose a giant pile of really strong anti-infantry. Also still contemplating the Swarmlord, but with T-Guard being mandatory for him to live, I can't see dropping over 400 points for the unit in an 1850 tournament. (And I question his survivability against shooting with only 1 Guard.)

All in all, IG seem like an insurmountable task to me with Nids. I don't know what the best answer is. I really don't like "hope I get lucky with pairings," but my Adepticon options look like they'll either be "hope I get lucky with pairings" on the Nids or "hope I get lucky with Daemonic Assault (and hope Kairos doesn't take 1 wound and decide to leave town)" on my Daemons.

sirisaacnuton wrote:stuff

I am in total agreement. I like your last list btw. The internet seems ready to move on to blood angels, and no one has found anything that can step to IG or space wolves... I think that I'm ready to call this codex "tourney underpowered". I'll be making some fun planetstrike/apocalypse/battle mission lists for casual play, and I'll be checking the boards for any revelations... but the initial reaction everyone had at the massive cost hike of each MC was pretty accurate... they cost too much and don't do enough, period.

A piece of advice to any game designer. NEVER, EVER design a "gunline" type army. I know people want to play with that style. I say this as an avid imperial guard player and former cygnar player. The game breaks down, you lose all of the middle ground, and you have no room to make any 'hybrid' armies. Either the gunline wins in the first turn against the all-assault army, or loses in the next turn. Any army that tries to be half-assault half-shooting is hopelessly outclassed in shooting and assault by the paper-rock-scissors other lists. Any point spent on a CC upgrade against an IG gunline is a wasted point, and since all nid MCs are basically burdened with built-in CC upgrades, they are all massively overcosted.

At this point, I'd gladly take a 'mycetic spore assault' rule to get my zoanthropes shooting on turn one, or to get carnifex set up and ready to charge on turn two if people reserve against me. That is a big missed opportunity... along with pheromone trail not working when off-table... because that makes sense

Lets all pray that librarian furioso dreads start just shredding mech gunlines with impunity using shockwave and that the storm harbingers armor 13 starts making the autocannon and missile launcher relics of the old days.... even owning thousands of dollars of IG, I am begging someone at GW to wreck my gunline list with a popular codex, one that isn't just another gunline. If we can just get IG and space marines/wolves to actually spend a reasonable amount of points for effective shooting, rather than 10 point autocannons/MLs then maybe that can open up some breathing room for a ground and pound nid army.

Until then, see you in planetstrike...

Shep:

What do you think of Spore Mine Clusters?

Nurglitch wrote:Shep:

What do you think of Spore Mine Clusters?

When i first saw the dex, I really liked the idea of seeding the nemy deployment zone basically just to get some minor disruption on deployment. Since the fast attack slots all looked fairly weak, I was excited about them. And was going to run 3 units of three.

But once I got into list building, nid lists are so tight on points that I could just never get those 90 points opened up...

So, i like them, but haven't been able to work them into lists.

Shep:

It's just I managed to forget the new way they worked, proposed using them in this thread, was reminded to go back and take a second look, and I keep thinking about the utility of disrupting deployment.

Think about it, land enough from orbit in the enemy deployment zone prior to deployment and they're going to have to deploy where you want them (more or less...) rather than where-ever is most convenient.

You could seed them in areas where a tank could go hull down, or where an artillery unit could fire at you with impunity. Just the idea of the ability to shape your opponent's deployment seems to have utility in prevent that first-turn heroic shooting gallery.

I think what people are hung up on are the Tervigon, which are pretty nifty, but remember that we got on pretty well without them in the last two editions.

Sure they can pump out Termagants, but consider that you can nearly max out a brood of Termagants or Hormagaunts (26 or so) for the cost of a single Tervigon.

Remember also that people will have all those anti-tank weapons sitting around that they won't be using on vehicles, that have their greatest utility in killing your Monstrous Creatures.

I mean I'm sitting here at work thinking of my army at home and starting to regret having sold off all those Hormagaunts. At least they sell them in specific boxes these days.

And the early numbers showed even smallish units of Hormagaunts murdering units of Terminators and other such units.

Nurglitch wrote:Mellon:

How do you get 290 points? If each Warrior is 45pts, and there's three Warriors in two Broods, then it should come out to 270 points.

The Warriors should be 35pts each, with Rending Claws replacing Devourers for free, and +5pts for Adrenal Glands. So 105pts per squad, for 210 points in total on Troops.

That still puts the list at 100pts over 2000. So lose the Adrenal Glands from the Warriors and four Spore Mines (1 from the first two, 2 from the third).

Yes, yes indeed you are right. Two years of math at university, and I fail at multiplication. *facepalms myself* Thanks for correcting me.

On the subject of tournament competitive codex. I believe that GW doesn't even try to do that. It looks like they feel that the hardcore tournament players are such a small part of their customer base that proper cut-throat-playtesting is not worth the time and money that it costs. And I assume they believe that public playtesting of their rules would lessen the shock and awe effect of releasing a new codex, so lead to lower sales. It might also be that they feel it is alright if a very expensive (in $) army will perform better than a cheaper one, much like CCGs and CMGs work. They might very well be right on all accounts. Bad game design still makes me a sad panda :-(

Mellon wrote:On the subject of tournament competitive codex. I believe that GW doesn't even try to do that. It looks like they feel that the hardcore tournament players are such a small part of their customer base that proper cut-throat-playtesting is not worth the time and money that it costs. And I assume they believe that public playtesting of their rules would lessen the shock and awe effect of releasing a new codex, so lead to lower sales. It might also be that they feel it is alright if a very expensive (in $) army will perform better than a cheaper one, much like CCGs and CMGs work. They might very well be right on all accounts. Bad game design still makes me a sad panda :-(

you know... they are getting much better at it... When an author has access to the design crutch known as the meltagun, they really can't break it. When armies don't have access to it, then they have to work a bit harder. I know its not easy, but look at these two catagories of armies and notice what each of them have...

THE GOOD
space wolves
imperial guard
space marines

THE LESS GOOD
orks
demons
tyranids


if you didn't notice, those are the last 6 books to come out. At first glance it may seem like dedicated transports might be the common theme, but thats not true, both nids and orks have them. The only pure difference is the lack of meltaguns in multiple FOC slots.

It doesn't help that in the first three armies, you can build for a BLISTERING turn 1 shooting phase, but if the other guys could answer that back with definitive "go to sleep" style tank kill, then we'd have a game. But they can't. they peck at armor, and the top three armies don't peck they smash.

I have no question that blood angels will be just fine in 5th edition. I've already seen the perdition pistols and meltaguns in every slot. Does it really matter who is holding it?

sirisaacnuton wrote:"hope I get lucky with Daemonic Assault (and hope Kairos doesn't take 1 wound and decide to leave town)" on my Daemons.

1 Weaken Resolve'll toss Kairos out of the game so fast it's sickening

And if your opponent has an allied Psycannon/Mystics Inquisitor...

Nurglitch wrote:Think about it, land enough from orbit in the enemy deployment zone prior to deployment and they're going to have to deploy where you want them (more or less...) rather than where-ever is most convenient.

You could seed them in areas where a tank could go hull down, or where an artillery unit could fire at you with impunity. Just the idea of the ability to shape your opponent's deployment seems to have utility in prevent that first-turn heroic shooting gallery.

The problem is getting "enough" of them. You only get 3 slots. As written, should you try to land them in difficult terrain (or if they scatter there), your odds are excellent of losing them all to the landing (one explodes, and takes his friends out, too). (And then, the first time they move, you likely lose them all to bumping off of each other. Nice rules.)

So, you can inconvenience someone in a Pitched Battle deployment, but it's meaningless in DoW, and maybe useful in Spearhead (depends largely on the terrain - if your opponent can park in the back corner and shoot across the table, then it would be useful to force him forward a bit).

The major value of the Tervigon? It can create units after turn 1, replenishing your numbers when you need them.

Shep wrote:
clever things

Interesting analysis. I think you are right. Meltaguns are somewhat challenging because they are short range, but having them widely available makes an assault style army possible to play. The tyranids only hope would be that the BAs make huge tank gunlines less popular.

Mellon wrote:Interesting analysis. I think you are right. Meltaguns are somewhat challenging because they are short range, but having them widely available makes an assault style army possible to play. The tyranids only hope would be that the BAs make huge tank gunlines less popular.

I'm going to try one more list.... My gaming group has helped me work this one out. There is potential for a win here against MaxOD or IG. It feels very "demony". Its not my favorite playstyle and i feel like a was swindled into nids... but, here goes...

tyranid prime boneswords
3x zoanthropes in pod
3x zoanthropes in pod
doom of malantai in a pod (until GW FAQ nerfs the INAT interpretation)
3x warriors venom cannon in pod
3x warriors venom cannon in pod
3x warriors venom cannon in pod
3x warriors venom cannon in pod
carnifex with dual devourers in pod
carnifex with dual devourers in pod
carnifex with dual devourers in pod

Simple concept. Hope to get 5 pods on turn 2, hope only two of those 5 are warrior pods.... crash flank, lock it down, start trying to roll it.

I'll batrep it if i can get some free time tomorrow night or friday.

Does your group not use mystics? If not and they bunch up their tanks then...Mawloc?

But I do like the whole anti-armour thing you have going. However, do you really need carnifexes with devourers with all those warriors w/ VC's AND zoanthropes. I think perhaps 3 trygons might be a better bet. They are more survivable than carnifexes, and offer up 1 less KP. If you make them primes they also get more shots and their gun has AP5 meaning you can blow up transports.

Interesting build. It sure does look scary on paper. Good luck. I hope you find the time to write a batrep.