Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There's a definite tendency to equate statements of "America isn't awesome." with America bashing.

Only those jealous of the citizens of the US bash on the US so it doesn't bother me.

Again, if you live in the US and don't like the country then get the feth out. Most people if they don't like being somewhere won't stay so I ask flag burning anti-Americans living in this country to do the same.

To those across the pond? Suck it. We are better than you and you just can't handle the truth.

Fateweaver wrote:Only those jealous of the citizens of the US bash on the US so it doesn't bother me.

Again, if you live in the US and don't like the country then get the feth out. Most people if they don't like being somewhere won't stay so I ask flag burning anti-Americans living in this country to do the same.

To those across the pond? Suck it. We are better than you and you just can't handle the truth.

It's because of people like you that some people bash the USA. Plain and simple. It's laughable that you think people criticise your country because they're jealous.

You seem to rely on America's image as a powerful nation to prop up your self-esteem, and a large part of that is talking down other nations. THAT is the problem a lot of people have with your particular brand of American 'patriotism' - it relies so heavily upon denigrating others and refusing to accept criticism.

And let's face it, exactly how powerful are YOU personally, when it comes down to it? Because that's what you're trying to project: 'My country is powerful, therefore I am powerful!'.

You aren't. Have an orkmoticon.

Fateweaver wrote:

Polonius wrote:Fateweaver is pretty extreme in this country. Not radical right, but he is a pretty good example of a very stereotypical angry white male.

Either that, or he's an elaborate farce, conducted by somebody trying to make the right look ridiculous.

Stereotypical? I don't stereotype. I think everyone that isn't me is inferior.

So chew on them apples.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/stereotypical

stereo·typi·cal (ster′ē ə tip′i kəl, stir′-)

adjective

1. of or produced by stereotypy
2. stereotyped; hackneyed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_white_male

Fateweaver wrote:Only those jealous of the citizens of the US bash on the US so it doesn't bother me.

Only people with poorly developed egos would indirectly state that their mental state is contingent on the perceived superiority of their nation of origin.

Fateweaver wrote:
Again, if you live in the US and don't like the country then get the feth out. Most people if they don't like being somewhere won't stay so I ask flag burning anti-Americans living in this country to do the same.

The 'love it or leave it' argument is riddled with many holes. The most obvious one being that America is a nation founded on a democratic political process which is designed to allow the populace to change the nation as it sees fit.

After all, you already said that American wasn't a great nation because of Obama's Presidency; following your line of equivocation you should have left some time in the last 2 years.

Yeah, if you don't this newly socialist, terrorist electing country you can leave!

Me, on the other hand? I like to masturbate while watching Obama perform an abortion on an illegal immigrant with federal money, climaxing onto a burning american flag while shouting "allah Akbar!"

I don't think anyone said that Russia won the war.

Sure, I was being sloppy. But you can see the point of my argument. The Russians didn't "defeat the Germans." The US didn't even "defeat the Japanese." In both theaters there were more than just the major powers. The Allies defeated the Axis.

Obama would be on the political right in this country

I don't think he would. Politics is about doing what you CAN do, not what you WISH you could do.

I'm not a mind reader, but I think Obama is WAY off the left end of the American spectrum, and even in England would be left of center. I also think that he knows what he can and can't say in the US, so he sticks to what he can.

Bottom line, America is about slow shifts. Trying to go fast is just delusional. In fact, it's basically about a slow shift left, with only minor slowdowns, and virtually no backtracks. With that sort of history, it's doubly unprofitable to tip a lefty hand early. Patience is your friend when you're a liberal. Eventually you'll get your way.

Ah well, racism ftw eh?!

Racism has nothing at all to do about it. Honestly, the whole emphasis of Obama's blackness is a sham. He's half white, half black, raised by white people. How does that add up to black?

But, even if he was 100% black, without a single white gene in his body I'm still solely interested in his politics. This whole "it's just cuz you racist" crap is tiresome. I'm sure, as usual, non-Americans are super excited to think of a reason to be critical. But in this case, you're just plain wrong. America's racial pendulum has swung.

There are very, VERY few old school racists in America. I'd wager there are far more of them in Europe at this point, actually.

What we have now in America is a new form of racism. It's more "race politics." Republicans don't hate black people. On the contrary, they rushed out to get their own black guy to be the chairman of the RNC. They love a guy like Bobby Jindal, because he's pretty traditionally conservative, PLUS he's not white... It's all a big race to get women and minorities elected to prove to those communities that you're the party that cares about them.

To be honest, when Obama was elected, I my first race-related thought was to be disappointed that Republicans didn't get a female or non-white elected first. I'd have enjoyed the irony of the Democrats having to watch that.

They might say "Yeah, pops, that must have been awesome.", but they won't say "Yeah pops, we're awesome cause you won that."

It's more than that. It's also about taking time to reflect on what those people did, imagine yourself in their shoes, and ask yourself what you can do to prepare yourself to perform as well as they did if you're asked to.

Today I took my kids to see some WWII era warbirds at the local airport. I talked to a few people in line, and the tone I got from everyone was one of admiration for the guys that flew those planes, and amazement that they had the balls to do it. Nobody was saying "this is how I... Er, we... Stompted those Jerries!" It was admiration of the guys that flew the planes, and admiration of a neat classic machine.

Honestly I think the reason that you can so often find somebody willing to spout jingoistic cliche is because there's so often somebody willing to bait them into it. I mean, come on guys... This thread was about the 4th of July, and turned into calling Americans racists. I'm not saying that the jingoistic crap is admirable, but if you walk up to a soccer hooligan and call his team a bunch of pansies, what's gonna happen? Who's the BIGGER idiot?

Doesn't matter how scholarly you can make it sound, if you bait somebody you bait somebody.

I've noticed that in most threads where America-bashing is claimed

Sure, cause the criticisms are "accurate" right? Again, COME ON. People have different perspectives and reach different conclusions. I'm not saying you have to see things the same way somebody else does, but if you don't see things the same, don't get all indignant about it. One man's accurate statement is another man's insult. You don't have the moral highground, and neither does the other guy.

It's because of people like you that some people bash the USA.

WRONG. It's because of BOTH of you. It's because there's people like Fateweaver, who won't back down, and people like you, who feel smart when you bait him.

It doesn't make you smart or educated or clever to be able to bait somebody into getting frustrated. I could do the same to you in an instant. It wouldn't make me smart, it'd make me a dick.

People take pride in different things. Let them. And if you can't let them, and you have to try to tear them down, then at least have the intellectual honesty to know you're doing it.

Phryxis wrote:
It's more than that. It's also about taking time to reflect on what those people did, imagine yourself in their shoes, and ask yourself what you can do to prepare yourself to perform as well as they did if you're asked to.

Sure, and that's perfectly understandable, even healthy. That's the sort of thing I was trying to capture with the bit about "Yeah pops, that must have been awesome."

Phryxis wrote:
Honestly I think the reason that you can so often find somebody willing to spout jingoistic cliche is because there's so often somebody willing to bait them into it. I mean, come on guys... This thread was about the 4th of July, and turned into calling Americans racists. I'm not saying that the jingoistic crap is admirable, but if you walk up to a soccer hooligan and call his team a bunch of pansies, what's gonna happen? Who's the BIGGER idiot?

To be fair, the racism thing was the result of a political non sequitur from Fateweaver.

But, on to your main point, I certainly agree that the chest beating tropes tend to be drawn out through the baiting. However, it also has to be said that certain people will take unjustifiably aggressive positions whenever anything they value is questioned (and sometimes even when it isn't), and that's what, in my mind has brought this thread to where it is. Seriously, you've got people in hear stating that its essentially disrespectful to Americans to acknowledge the Soviet role in WWII; prior to which everything was going along pretty well.

Phryxis wrote:
Doesn't matter how scholarly you can make it sound, if you bait somebody you bait somebody.

I'm generally of the opinion that any patriotic celebration in an international environment is basically an excuse to bait nationalists, of all stripes. Normally this baiting is good natured, but sometimes it ends up going too far and you get what we have here.

Plus, this is a war gaming forum, if you mention WWII there will be an exchange of some sort.

To be fair, the racism thing was the result of a political non sequitur from Fateweaver.

I'm not sure that's "fair." Fateweaver called him a "Kenyan." Henners91 than took that as a reason to accuse him of racism, and to do it in a context that also implied that the "majority of white male Americans" were on the same page.

So did Fateweaver say anything about him being black? There was certainly an implication. But then again, Henners91 implied that all white male Americans are racist.

To me, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Two people coming together to bait and respond.

it also has to be said that certain people will take unjustifiably aggressive positions whenever anything they value is questioned

No question... That's what I was trying to capture with my mention of a soccer hooligan. If you go up to one of these guys and talk crap about his team, he's quite likely to punch you in the face. That's "unjustifiably aggressive" for sure. But at the same time, it would be an issue if you hadn't baited him.

The other reason I mention that, which I think is particularly operative here, is that people tend to choose not to find ways to understand people they have no stake in, and no experience with.

I'm sure these British posters all have a soccer hooligan friend or two. And they have experience with them that put these guys in context, and make them understandable. "Sure, Teddy likes to get drunk and fight with other footie fans, but he's a funny bloke, and loyal, real trustworthy." So they now have a personal connection to the stereotype, and they rationalize the good because of the bad.

On the other hand, they don't know any "American patriots" which are basically the same thing as a soccer hooligan, only with a different scale of "team." Because they don't know anybody like that, they actually believe the stereotype. In fact, because people tend to feel empowered and justified by spotting the failures of others, they actually exaggerate the stereotype, and still assume it's all totally true.

Suddenly Fateweaver, and all white male Americans, are racists. And suddenly that's about 100 million people leapfrogged in the hunt for the moral highground.

halonachos wrote:Like I said, the russian weather will defeat any army, the russian peoplejust steal the glory.

Do you think fraz is going to try and lecture you for diminishing the achievements of all those Russian people who fought and died against the Nazis?

The main issue was with weight and also the track system. The design used by the T-34(as well as some british tanks) had two modes that allowed high speeds. I think it was established as 60mph when in wheel mode. The Christie design was also simple enough to easily repair and allowed use in muddy terrain unlike the engineering of the german tanks.

The track and suspension of the t-34 was excellent, and part of it's success. But the primary advantage wasn't in any particular design element, but in the overall focus of the tank design. The t-34 was built for simple mass production, with mobility (particularly off-road mobility) and reliability as clear design goals.

Hitler was a horrible strategist. Had his officers told him to be quiet when the adults are talking, their military may have won the war.

Hitler made plenty of mistakes. He also argued heavily for rapid, quick strike warfare, and was resisted by many of the German high command. It was the final realisation of this idea that the Nazis stumbled into during the attack on France, and had it been more successfully implemented against the Russians in the early days of the war they might have performed better.

The Germans performed incredibly well at the tactical level, throughout the war. At the strategic level, before and after Hitler took overall control, they didn't operate that effectively.

But, that 1-15 ratio actually comes from a Tiger2(German Heavy) vs JS2(Russian Heavy). The Tiger2 that accomplished this didn't take too much damage from JS2 fire, it actually got stuck in the mud and could no longer move. So I am not comparing Heavy vs Light, that was a Heavy vs Heavy match.

So, your evidence of German military superiority (and therefore their reliance on US aid) comes from a late war match off, when the Russians were advancing on all fronts. And still relies on the idea that the match off of one heavy tank vs another is an important part of winning the war. That's pure fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:So if we look at actual kills(and not the ones the crews burned intentionally) that was
121 to 10 or about 12 soviet tanks for 1 german one. Not to mention the planes, train, and artillery they also killed.

The King Tiger was a fantastic tank and like many people say, it is rare to find a photo of a Tiger 2 that was knocked out due to a round penetrating the front armor. It would be easy to call the King Tigers a Demolisher Variant with strong front armor and weaker armor on the sides and weakest in the back. It also had a higher ammo capacity (60 to 30), but sat higher and could get stuck in sand.

In fact I think one battle the germans lost 3 King Tigers, 2 to enemy fire and the 3rd fell in a crater and got stuck.

If one was to ignore the machine hours put into producing a tank, the logistics of putting that tank on battlefield, ignore the operational range of that tank on the battefield, ignore all elements of support from infantry and air, and just ask what tank I would most like to dirve in WWII to battle other tanks, then the Tiger II would be right up there.

But the point is you can't ignore all the above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phryxis wrote:Why can't the non-Americans let one picture of the stars and stripes be posted without reminding everyone that American isn't REALLY that great?

America is the dominant world power, has almost complete military superiority in the world, and is the dominant cultural force in the world today. This is a good thing because I like a whole lot of American culture.

But the overwhelmingly greatest contributor to defeating the Germans was the Soviet Union. This is an important thing to point out simply because it is important to be right about history.

As far as Russia "winning" the war, that's ridiculous. The Allies won the war. That's Russia, the US, the UK, Canada, etc. All of these forces combined to defeat the Axis.

Umm, first of all, we were there also

Second of all, yes, all countries played an important role, and each sacrificed to defeat the Axis powers. But it makes exactly zero sense to assert all countries contributed equally, and if they didn't, then it is possible to argue who contributed more. Would you be bothered by the suggestion that while both Australia and the US fought against Japan, it was in fact the US that contributed more?

The Russians inflicted lots of casualties, sure... But American and British bombing raids, which cost a MASSIVE number of lives on both sides, hindered production of all sorts of war materials. Meanwhile the Lend Lease program was supplying Russia with war materials they lacked the capacity to produce.

The Allied bombing campaign was a factor, as was the lend lease program. But if you remove these factors you cannot account for the overwhelming difference in German and Soviet production.

To pick one nation as a "winner" is ridiculous, and it bespeaks a strangely pathological need to diminish the US, and build up everything that's not the US.

That's a completely bizarre interpretation of this thread. Just from miles out of left field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:I don't think anyone said that Russia won the war. Sebster said that Russia defeated Germany, which I consider a fair assessment insofar as 'defeated' is equivalent to 'contributed the most to defeating', but I can't be certain that's what he meant. That's merely my assessment after having read many of his posts.

That's pretty much it, yeah. The Soviets contributed more to defeating the Nazis than any other power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:It's definitely not the greatest now, not with our dimwit Kenyan, terrorist lover in charge but I digress. It'll be a good country again when HE is out of office.

So your patriotism will not tolerate people giving an honest account of military achievements, but it is fine to suggest the country has stopped being great because you don't the current President.

I am finally beginning to understand how your worldview has gotten so screwed up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:I love that this has gone from a celebration of July 4th to calling people racists.

What exactly do you think is going to happen when someone claims Obama is Kenyan?

I am really sick of people on this forum turning what should have been a simple "yay us" thread into a forum to spout their political crap.

Can someone not love their country and have a genuine understanding of history?

And if the two are not compatible, should the love of one's country really be a higher thing than an understanding of history?

And yes, I would do exactly as fateweaver said if someone showed up in my backyard. When did having pride in your country and the good things it stands for become unacceptable?

It isn't unacceptable, it is in fact not only acceptable but an overtly encouraged thing. And this is fine.

It is a little more problematic when a love of one's country is built around things that aren't true. It is a serious problem when someone objects to actually reading the truth of the matter, because it impacts how he likes to view his country.

You should love your country for what it has achieved, not what you'd like it to have achieved.

Honestly, for those of you from across the pond, what is the draw to bashing The United States? I am genuinely curious. Yes, sometimes the "loud, American" can be annoying (I spent several years in Europe). Do we really piss you off that much?

No-one is bashing the US. There is a difference between pointing out . You are absolutely welcome to love your country, and there are many reasons to do so, but it should be for the things it has actually achieved, not the things people mistakenly think it achieved.

In a thread celebrating Australia Day, if a poster were to claim he's proud because we went and defeated the Japanese, do you not think another poster might point out it was actually the US that contributed the most to defeating the Japanese?

Would you be bothered by the suggestion that while both Australia and the US fought against Japan, it was in fact the US that contributed more?

No, but there's also a change in language here.

We started with: "The US, the UK and the rest of the allied forces all have a lot to be proud of, but ultimately Germany was defeated by the Russians."

Now were talking about contribution... We could probably discuss at great length the relative contributions of the nations involved, but for the purpose of this discussion, what I think is most noteworthy is the language. You chose to say things in a way that comes across as a bit more harsh and dismissive than I think you really even view things.

This is the whole "baiting" piece. You've got a reasonable point to make, but you also sense that there are "American patriots" watching, and you want to show them that you don't respect their jingoism, so you give them a little extra.

That's a completely bizarre interpretation of this thread. Just from miles out of left field.

I don't feel that it is. Honestly, are you going to tell me that you didn't post in this thread without feeling that there were overly prideful Americans who needed to be "brought down a notch?"

Esteemed American Patriot and War Hero John Kerry invented the phrase "speaking truth to power." I think a lot of people outside the US, and many in the US as well, feel compelled to "speak truth to American power." Any time the US is praised, these people feel the need to "clarify" that the US isn't quite as good as is being suggested, and, by gosh, Country X has done it better all along.

It's a bit pathological and unnecessary. There are a LOT more people who agree that the US is overrated than don't. You're not "correcting the record." You're really preaching to the choir.

(please note that I'm kidding about Kerry, he didn't invent it and he's a d-bag)

It isn't unacceptable, it is in fact not only acceptable but an overtly encouraged thing.

While you may not be a proponent of it, and thus not fairly to be blamed for it, there is a movement in the US that views patriotic expression as "wrong." There's a huge debate to be had there, perhaps the scope of this movement is overblown, perhaps it's not truly against patriotism so much as specific expressions of patriotism, but it's certainly a debate that's going on.

There are Americans who feel that they are being pressured, in many cases by other Americans, to "hate their country."

This is what's being responded to. As I said, not necessarily your fault, but something that many Americans are sensitive to.

Phryxis wrote:
To me, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Two people coming together to bait and respond.

Yeah, no question, I was just pointing out that the racism issue didn't appear to flow organically from the discussion of the 4th of July and American patriotism. In other words, no one jumped into the thread and proclaimed that all Americans are racist. Instead, an American made a comment which was at least tangentially related to race, and a Brit took it the rest of the way.

Honestly, most of this thread pretty well conforms to what you're describing. The only real question is to what degree the response was warranted, which I think, on some level, is true of all conversation.

Phryxis wrote:No, but there's also a change in language here.

We started with: "The US, the UK and the rest of the allied forces all have a lot to be proud of, but ultimately Germany was defeated by the Russians."

My bad, I should have used consistent terminology. That said, I think the first statement is more accurate than the second. The USSR did the most to defeat the Nazis, and would have done so without aid. Similarly, the US did the most to defeat the Japanese, and would have done so without aid.

As such, it is reasonable to say “ultimately the USSR defeated the Nazis” and it is reasonable to say “ultimately the US defeated the Japanese”.

If you saw the phrase “ultimately the US defeated the Japanese” would you think it was baiting the Australians, New Zealanders, UK, Soviets, Chinese, Koreans, and whoever else who aided in the war against them?

I don't feel that it is. Honestly, are you going to tell me that you didn't post in this thread without feeling that there were overly prideful Americans who needed to be "brought down a notch?"

I am honestly saying that was not my intention. I spend a lot of time in threads on all manner of things correcting what I feel are mistakes. Fundamentally, if I really believe anything, it’s that the best opinion is one formed of as honest and complete an understanding of the facts as possible. If someone is to love their country they’re welcome to do so, but it should be based on the achievements of their country, not the myths of their achievements.

Esteemed American Patriot and War Hero John Kerry invented the phrase "speaking truth to power."

No he didn’t, the phrase has its origins in the Quaker movement, as part of a pacifist movement opposed to US entry into WWII.

See, there I go again

I think a lot of people outside the US, and many in the US as well, feel compelled to "speak truth to American power." Any time the US is praised, these people feel the need to "clarify" that the US isn't quite as good as is being suggested, and, by gosh, Country X has done it better all along.

It's a bit pathological and unnecessary. There are a LOT more people who agree that the US is overrated than don't. You're not "correcting the record." You're really preaching to the choir.

I think the US has a lot to be proud of. It is because of the US that more of Europe wasn’t overtaken by the Soviets. It is because of the Marshall Plan that Germany and Japan recovered so quickly, and became powerful and positive contributors to the world. It is that second thing that is quite incredible, and possibly unique in history. I mean, nations have rebuilt conquered territories, but only in order to rule over a productive vassal – the idea of rebuilding a former enemy, in good faith that it would become an ally – it’s incredible.

Of course, that was a peacetime achievement, an act of humanism. It doesn’t get mentioned in 4th of July threads, because for some reason moments of power are embraced easier than moments of greatness.

Because there is a massive difference between a great country and a powerful one, and people don’t always love the right one.

(please note that I'm kidding about Kerry, he didn't invent it and he's a d-bag)

Bugger, and I was being so clever

While you may not be a proponent of it, and thus not fairly to be blamed for it, there is a movement in the US that views patriotic expression as "wrong." There's a huge debate to be had there, perhaps the scope of this movement is overblown, perhaps it's not truly against patriotism so much as specific expressions of patriotism, but it's certainly a debate that's going on.

Sure, but from what I’ve seen the people who believe such are a very small minority, and their numbers are overstated because it is easier to dismiss them entirely, instead of responding to the more considered argument that the US might exaggerate its achievements, might gloss over it’s limitations and failings.

This is what's being responded to. As I said, not necessarily your fault, but something that many Americans are sensitive to.

Sure, and I’m telling you that in the context of this thread people are seeing America bashing where it doesn’t exist. Sometimes people claim they’re being bashed unfairly to shut down the discussion, because it’s easier than being wrong.

A while ago we had ANZAC day here in Australia. It is a day of remembrance and that’s all good, they deserve a day of recognition at the very least. In time, though, the day has changed its character, people expand the day out to celebrate Australia in general and I’m not so comfortable with that. I’ve told people here on more than a few occasions that that isn’t what Anzac Day is about, and that relating fallen soldiers and national pride together is both politically troublesome and disrespectful. The response typically comes that I can’t make them stop loving their country, or something similarly nonsensical.

It’s just, you have to be very careful that you’re really seeing the argument that is being made, and not just seeing the argument you want to see, in order to dismiss it easier.

If you saw the phrase “ultimately the US defeated the Japanese” would you think it was baiting the Australians, New Zealanders, UK, Soviets, Chinese, Koreans, and whoever else who aided in the war against them?

It depends on context. Nothing is binary, it's all a matter of degrees...

And it all comes down to "did that need to be said?"

In a thread that's nominally about the 4th of July, do we need to criticize or downplay the US? Probably not. Maybe if people are just WAY out of line jingoistic.

And is it, SO clearcut that the Soviets defeated the Germans that it's really an assault on history to not say as much? I don't think so. I'm not sure I even agree with your premise, much less agree so strongly that it just HAS to be pointed out in a thread about the 4th of July.

So it's not like I have a problem with your line of reasoning. In fact, I don't really even have a problem with you bringing it up on a thread about the 4th of July. If it's your opinion, it's your opinion.

What annoys me is that when this sort of thing is done, people then get all shocked and offended that somebody takes issue. Don't bait somebody and then act bemused/disappointed/shocked when they respond. Baiting people is fine. I do it all the time. But I don't start crying when people respond.

And, to be clear, I'm not saying you started crying, exactly, but there's an undercurrent of that going on. A lot of people lamenting the jingoistic Americans they're forced to deal with, when, really, they asked for exactly that.

I spend a lot of time in threads on all manner of things correcting what I feel are mistakes.

I have a very similar pathology... That said, there are SO MANY incorrect things said all the time, that you really are only going to correct things that you "take personally."

So, I used the phrase "brought down a notch," and I believe you when you say that's not your intent. But I think that somewhere inside you there's an emotional attachment to the idea that America gets more credit than it's due. If you didn't feel that way, you wouldn't have the energy or interest to spend time discussing it.

I see people talking about Anime. I think Anime sucks. But I really just don't have the time to start arguing about it. I don't care that much. Somebody put up a clip of a movie based on Half Life that they thought looked awesome. I thought it looked sorta gimmicky and lame, with lots of running, and no budget, but I just don't care enough to force my opinion on somebody.

Conversely, I REALLY hate Communism, and believe it's the single greatest evil of our time. I am willing to argue loudly about that with people, because I really, REALLY think it's important that people see it for what it is.

So, it's my feeling that if you're posting that the Soviets defeated Germany, it's not simply something you could care less about, but believe. In order to take the time to make that point, and to do it in slightly sensitive context, it implies an emotional investment in "setting the record straight."

It doesn’t get mentioned in 4th of July threads, because for some reason moments of power are embraced easier than moments of greatness.

I dunno, it's a lot more popular these days what with the Iraq war going on. A lot of Americans point back to Germany and Japan as examples that it can be done, and then when it doesn't go well, they point to the aftermath in Germany as an example of how it's hard, but still can be done.

Honestly, my perception from inside the US, is that people are quite aware that the US has chosen to act altruistically to defeated foes in the past, and this is indeed viewed with pride. It's just dumbed down when you're dealing with dumber people. Smarter people will point to these actual historical events. Dumber people just say "the US is nicer than the Commies, too."

Sure, but from what I’ve seen the people who believe such are a very small minority

That's because the external face of the US is our news and popular media. What they're telling you is the same thing they're telling us, and it's a lie.

Don't forget: George W. Bush was elected twice. Conspiracy theories aside, in real life he was elected twice. And he's an idiot. If you can get an idiot elected just cause he's more conservative than the other guy (and not really by much), that should tell you how conservative the body of the US really is.

Michelle Obama said that her husband's election was the first time she felt proud of her country. It's not like there's not ripe material for this stuff.

I think you'd find that MOST Americans feel that there are some forces at work trying to suppress patriotic expression. The removal of the Pledge of Alliegance from schools, etc. etc. etc.

This is the "silent majority." It's a real thing, and the liberal media alternate between pretending it's not real, and pretending it is real, but the people in it are extremist loons.

Sure, and I’m telling you that in the context of this thread people are seeing America bashing where it doesn’t exist.

Meh, I think it pretty clearly does. This is a thread about the 4th of July. People are implying that all white males in America are racist. That's America bashing. In a thread about the 4th of July, virtually anything negative about the US could fairly be considered America bashing.

I try not to be too much of a relativist, and sometimes people's feelings are just plain wrong, but if somebody thinks you're bashing America, you have to respect their feelings at least a little ways beyond where you'd draw the line. Again, it's a matter of degrees, but unless it's just OBVIOUSLY not America bashing, it behooves you to respect somebody else's opinion that it is.

I also have a problem with the idea that there was no America bashing in this thread, when it's my feeling that there not only was, but it was being delivered with the intent of "entrapping" somebody. It's not just bashing, it's bashing being done in a way that's plausibly deniable, so that if somebody responds, people can feel like the responder is to blame. I'm not pointing at you specifically, I'm just saying.

The response typically comes that I can’t make them stop loving their country, or something similarly nonsensical.

I have a hard time believing that people can't communicate. I'm going to point back to my previous point. I think sometimes when people feel strongly about something, and have an expectation of who they're talking to, they look for the argument, and get it.

I really can't believe that if you took a person's viewpoint in mind, wrapped your view in terms that are acceptable to that person, and then delivered your argument in a way their ideology allows them to accept, they'd not hear you.

This thread is bouncing around like a fat woman on a pogo-stick. Whats going on again? Are we talking about tanks or bigotry now? :-)

Bigoted tanks.

Apparently the Churchill was a real bastard.

Are you saying England is rubbish and you hate England? YOU ENGLAND BASHER!!!111pi

mattyrm wrote:This thread is bouncing around like a fat woman on a pogo-stick. Whats going on again? Are we talking about tanks or bigotry now? :-)

You sir, have a gift with the skills of description.

Well it was "fun" while it lasted, and we have at least, once again, learnt some stuff about WW II tanks; the essential backbone, the smoke from the barbecue so to speak, of any July 4TH celebration..err... yeah.