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whatwhat wrote:tbh I don't know if American women have the same: 'wear extremely little' attitude that european women do on nights out.

Speaking as a guy who went to college in Florida, shorts with an inseam of zero and halter tops were pretty much the school's female uniform in the summer.

ShumaGorath wrote:Looks like part of the mandate for members IS the advancement of women's rights. So.... Having Saudi Arabia on the panel would imply that they are now under this mandate and in theory have to make progress on this issue?

Nope. It means they're no on the board making decisions about progress on the issue and can derail any progress. Funny how that works. Next you're going to be telling me that putting China, Libta, and North Korea in charge of improving human rights in general is really sensible.

Because Saudi Arabia is in jail until we say otherwise? Seriously? That half baked analogy is the best defense you had?

It's a good analogy, but I'm not really suprised that you lack the intellectual ability to comprehend it. PUT GUY WITH BAD RECORD ON THING IN CHARGE OF IMPROVING RECORD ON THING IS BAD. Do you get that one?

This is like a circus, but I'm not laughing.

We're laughing at you, not with you.

Tyyr wrote:

whatwhat wrote:tbh I don't know if American women have the same: 'wear extremely little' attitude that european women do on nights out.

Speaking as a guy who went to college in Florida, shorts with an inseam of zero and halter tops were pretty much the school's female uniform in the summer.

So girls wear hotpants and halter tops in summer in florida? That's erm, not that surprising. Not really what I was getting at with that statement. But yeah I suppose it does contrast with Saudi Arabia.

I can expound upon that if need be.

Hot pants and halters are considered casual wear that acceptable to parade around in on a campus of higher learning. Clubbing wear is significantly more daring.

Nope. It means they're no on the board making decisions about progress on the issue and can derail any progress.

As ipposed to being off the board and having the boards decisions be totally irrelevant to it's actual purpose? A club composed of people with great womens rights records that can only do anything within the club itself ISN'T GONNA DO gak FOR WOMENS RIGHTS. But I've now come to the realization that you are legitimately incapable of understanding that concept.

Funny how that works. Next you're going to be telling me that putting China, Libta, and North Korea in charge of improving human rights in general is really sensible.

Better get inside.

It's a good analogy,

No, it really isn't. It's non sensical and irrelevant in the extreme.

but I'm not really suprised that you lack the intellectual ability to comprehend it.

Miracles.

PUT GUY WITH BAD RECORD ON THING IN CHARGE OF IMPROVING RECORD ON THING IS BAD. Do you get that one?

Saudi arabia is now on a 45 member panel. It is not on the advisory board. It is at the lowest level of membership that a country can be in. It is not a paying contributer. It is not on the board that makes decisions concerning scheduling. It is a "member". I already posted who the leaders are. Fraz posted who the contributing members are.

They are not in charge.

I'm going to say that again, since maybe you have to read things twice to understand them

THEY ARE NOT IN CHARGE.

Christ.

We're laughing at you, not with you.

I'm sorry, i fell asleep over how repetitive you are.

Tyyr wrote:I can expound upon that if need be.

Hot pants and halters are considered casual wear that acceptable to parade around in on a campus of higher learning. Clubbing wear is significantly more daring.

Right. Yeah that's the same here. It was ahtman's comment "The majority of women do not go around in mini skirts, or thong bikinis on a regular basis." that made me doubt it.

Tyyr wrote:I can expound upon that if need be.

Hot pants and halters are considered casual wear that acceptable to parade around in on a campus of higher learning. Clubbing wear is significantly more daring.

Pics or it didn't happen!

TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.

I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.

ShumaGorath wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.

I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.

Guess again.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.

I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.

Guess again.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

Yeah, let me amend that. Instances of reported rape are more common in the UK but instances of rape in Saudi Arabia are higher. Its hard to get accurate statistics when you jail, beat, or put to death rape victims for adultery. Doesn't give good incentive to report it to the religious police.

Saudia arabia does not have the lowest instance of rape in the world.

ShumaGorath wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.

I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.

Guess again.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

Yeah, let me amend that. Instances of reported rape are more common in the UK but instances of rape in Saudi Arabia are higher. Its hard to get accurate statistics when you jail, beat, or put to death rape victims for adultery. Doesn't give good incentive to report it to the religious police.

So your knowledge is based on the Book of Shuma again? Got you.

ShumaGorath wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.

I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.

Guess again.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

Yeah, let me amend that. Instances of reported rape are more common in the UK but instances of rape in Saudi Arabia are higher. Its hard to get accurate statistics when you jail, beat, or put to death rape victims for adultery. Doesn't give good incentive to report it to the religious police.

Saudia arabia does not have the lowest instance of rape in the world.

The scary thing is Shuma and I are in agreement. To bring forth charges of rape you have to have multiple witnesses else you're subject to being charged with adultery or related offenses.

whatwhat wrote:So your knowledge is based on the Book of Shuma again? Got you.

While I too disagree with his method of coming to the conclusion, I don't disagree with the conclusion itself.

Having the lowest number of reported rapes does not mean that the number of rapes itself is low.

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.

I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.

Guess again.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

Yeah, let me amend that. Instances of reported rape are more common in the UK but instances of rape in Saudi Arabia are higher. Its hard to get accurate statistics when you jail, beat, or put to death rape victims for adultery. Doesn't give good incentive to report it to the religious police.

So your knowledge is based on the Book of Shuma again? Got you.

Yeah, given the "reported statistics" the US would have roughly forty times the number of rapes per 100,000 people. Forgive me for trusting sources other then directly reported criminal statistics by a notoriously corrupt body.

Between 1995 and 2000, according to INTERPOL data, the rate of murder decreased from 0.83 to 0.71 per 100,000 population, a decrease of 14.5%. The rate for rape decreased from 0.6 to 0.14, a decrease of 76.7%. The rate for aggravated assault decreased from 17.75 to 0.12, a decrease of 99.3%.

Yeah, no one ever feths with the numbers.

ShumaGorath wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.

I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.

Guess again.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

Yeah, let me amend that. Instances of reported rape are more common in the UK but instances of rape in Saudi Arabia are higher. Its hard to get accurate statistics when you jail, beat, or put to death rape victims for adultery. Doesn't give good incentive to report it to the religious police.

So your knowledge is based on the Book of Shuma again? Got you.

Yeah, given the "reported statistics" the US would have roughly forty times the number of rapes per 100,000 people. Forgive me for trusting sources other then directly reported criminal statistics by a notoriously corrupt body.

Erm, which source is it your trusting here?

Melissia wrote:

whatwhat wrote:So your knowledge is based on the Book of Shuma again? Got you.

While I too disagree with his method of coming to the conclusion, I don't disagree with the conclusion itself.

Having the lowest number of reported rapes does not mean that the number of rapes itself is low.

Sure but it also doesn't account for unreported rapes in western countries either.

http://trueslant.com/nealungerleider/2010/01/21/saudi-arabia-to-lash-filipino-rape-victim-100-times/

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/11/15/saudi-arabia-rape-victim-punished-speaking-out

Frazzled wrote:http://trueslant.com/nealungerleider/2010/01/21/saudi-arabia-to-lash-filipino-rape-victim-100-times/

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/11/15/saudi-arabia-rape-victim-punished-speaking-out

Two confirmed cases of rape in Saudi Arabia do what to help Shumas point?

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.

I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.

Guess again.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

Yeah, let me amend that. Instances of reported rape are more common in the UK but instances of rape in Saudi Arabia are higher. Its hard to get accurate statistics when you jail, beat, or put to death rape victims for adultery. Doesn't give good incentive to report it to the religious police.

So your knowledge is based on the Book of Shuma again? Got you.

Yeah, given the "reported statistics" the US would have roughly forty times the number of rapes per 100,000 people. Forgive me for trusting sources other then directly reported criminal statistics by a notoriously corrupt body.

Erm, which source is it your trusting here?

Melissia wrote:

whatwhat wrote:So your knowledge is based on the Book of Shuma again? Got you.

While I too disagree with his method of coming to the conclusion, I don't disagree with the conclusion itself.

Having the lowest number of reported rapes does not mean that the number of rapes itself is low.

Sure but it also doesn't account for unreported rapes in western countries either.

Foreign embassies continued to receive many reports that employers abuse foreign women working as domestic servants. Some embassies of countries with large domestic servant populations maintain safehouses to which their citizens may flee to escape work situations that include forced confinement, withholding of food, beating and other physical abuse, and rape.

Embassies, escaped women, expatriates, and a helping of common sense given the rate of such crimes in virtually every other region under sharia law on the planet.

Many foreign domestic servants flee work situations that include forced confinement, beating and other physical abuse, withholding of food, and rape. The authorities often forced domestic servants to return to their places of employment. The Government states that it does not believe that trafficking in persons is a problem because foreign workers come to the country voluntarily. It primarily focused on identifying and deporting illegal workers, and did not devote significant effort or resources to antitrafficking activity.

Yep, nothing wrong going on here.

ShumaGorath wrote:the rate of such crimes in virtually every other region under sharia law on the planet.

And they are not on the list why?

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:the rate of such crimes in virtually every other region under sharia law on the planet.

And they are not on the list why?

Not official UN members? It includes tribal pakistan, yemen, southern afghanistan, and a whole slew of other places that the UN doesn't have a direct reporting member for. Also, that list didn't have every country on the planet.

ShumaGorath wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:the rate of such crimes in virtually every other region under sharia law on the planet.

And they are not on the list why?

Not official UN members? It includes tribal pakistan, yemen, southern afghanistan, and a whole slew of other places that the UN doesn't have a direct reporting member for. Also, that list didn't have every country on the planet.

A number of which are on that list.

Amnesty International:
http://www.amnesty.ca/SaudiArabia/5.php

Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/women/

Frazzled wrote:Amnesty International:
http://www.amnesty.ca/SaudiArabia/5.php

Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/women/

Shuma stated Saudi had more rapes than the UK and said he had sources to back it up, so far we've seen none. + None of those do either. All your proving is what we already know about Saudi's bad record on womens rights. + Your actually presenting more evidence of reported rapes, not less.


ftr Shuma. I actually agree with the point made that the number of reported rapes does not mean the number of rapes. What I'm disagreeing with is how you can make the statement there are more rapes in Saudi than in the Uk on the basis of no source whatsoever. And instead are rellying on what you deem to be true by your own ideals and prejudices.

whatwhat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Amnesty International:
http://www.amnesty.ca/SaudiArabia/5.php

Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/women/

Shuma stated Saudi had more rapes than the UK and said he had sources to back it up, so far we've seen none. + None of those do either.


ftr Shuma. I actually agree with the point made that the number of reported rapes does not mean the number of rapes. What I'm disagreeing with is how you can make the statement there are more rapes in Saudi than in the Uk on the basis of no source whatsoever. And instead are rellying on what you deem to be true by your own ideals and prejudices.

I said I'm pretty sure, which implies that I don't have emprical evidence and I stated that I trust sources, numerous ones, pertaining to the real crime situation on the ground in Saudi Arabia. The crime statistics they release are clearly doctored, they have massive issues with human trafficking, and they have a set of laws that logically reduce the reporting population for sex crimes heavilly. They do all this while under a set of laws that makes places like northern africa, afghanistan, and pakistan some of the most dangerous places to be a women in the world.

You want per capita instances of unreported rape from me? Don't got that. Sorry. Go ahead, keep believing that Saudi arabias violent crimes dropped 93% overnight and that they have the lowest per capita rapes on that list.

Translation of whatwhat's last post: "I don't agree with you and I'm going to dismiss any and all evidence you present no matter where it comes from."

This is starting to remind me of the "debate" between science and creationists now.

I'm sure we can all trawl the internet to find news articles to fit our arguments. Fact, there is more Rape per person in the US or Europe than the Middle East. For a woman to be raped in the Middle East means she was 'unprotected' by her family, a source of great shame on her family.

I'll think you'll find the reason the rape victim was lashed, not because she was raped, but because she broke the law. One case I read the victim was lashed because she got into a car with 4 men she did not know. The punishment for this is lashes. The men were punished for rape, but the media do not report this part, because the sensational part is the punishment of the victim.

The punishment for driving dangerously (if you ever got caught) is a fine, and 20 lashes. The punishment for being a passenger in a car being driven dangerously, is the same fine, and 40 lashes. The view here you are just as guilty as you should have made the driver stop, if you didn't then you were enjoying / part of the crime. As I said, there is little crime, as the punishments are so high, it acts as a very good deterent. The little brats who shoplift from GW, if the punishment was they would (potentially) lose their left hand and become an outcast from their family because of the shame, I bet they would quickly change their attitudes.

How many reported cases of Rape are there in western countries. Girls who go out, get too drunk and wake up to Mr. X only to cry rape after. I'm not blaming the girls here, but I've seen it myself both men and women so drunk on a night out they are in a heap on the roadside and wouldn't have a clue if their wallets were taken or anything. How many Men are raped, but then NEVER report the crime for the percieved shame it would bring them (more than you think if you beleive the statistics on the net).

Yes the system in KSA emposes strict rules for 'Moral Conduct' and especially women. But that same system is designed to protect them. Its not perfect, but it is changing. Like I said, I suspect KSA was approved for the Womens Rights Committe because of the good things that the Country is doing to promote womens rights, but because its not 'sensational' the media simply ignore it!

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.

I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.

Guess again.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

Yeah, let me amend that. Instances of reported rape are more common in the UK but instances of rape in Saudi Arabia are higher. Its hard to get accurate statistics when you jail, beat, or put to death rape victims for adultery. Doesn't give good incentive to report it to the religious police.

So your knowledge is based on the Book of Shuma again? Got you.

I've been trying to stay out of this argument (although it is funny). But, ShumaGorath totally wins this point. You can't compare reported crime rates in a head-to-head fashion when the culture around said crime is drastically different.

The website you linked is interesting, but if you mouse over the "definition" link, even they admidt this is a better indicator for how effective law enforcement is than actually crime rate.

Grakmar wrote:I've been trying to stay out of this argument (although it is funny). But, ShumaGorath totally wins this point. You can't compare reported crime rates in a head-to-head fashion when the culture around said crime is drastically different.

The website you linked is interesting, but if you mouse over the "definition" link, even they admidt this is a better indicator for how effective law enforcement is than actually crime rate.

yes we know that.

ShumaGorath wrote:You want per capita instances of unreported rape from me? Don't got that. Sorry.

Oh you don't now, no? Because that's what you stated earlier.

whatwhat wrote:

Grakmar wrote:I've been trying to stay out of this argument (although it is funny). But, ShumaGorath totally wins this point. You can't compare reported crime rates in a head-to-head fashion when the culture around said crime is drastically different.

The website you linked is interesting, but if you mouse over the "definition" link, even they admidt this is a better indicator for how effective law enforcement is than actually crime rate.

yes we know that.

ShumaGorath wrote:You want per capita instances of unreported rape from me? Don't got that. Sorry.

Oh you don't now, no? Because that's what you stated earlier.

I stated "I'm pretty sure".

Here i'll quote myself using the quote button.

ShumaGorath wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.

I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.

Does "I'm pretty sure" mean "I have a mountain of evidence with absolute authority" in the UK now?

ShumaGorath wrote:

whatwhat wrote:

Grakmar wrote:I've been trying to stay out of this argument (although it is funny). But, ShumaGorath totally wins this point. You can't compare reported crime rates in a head-to-head fashion when the culture around said crime is drastically different.

The website you linked is interesting, but if you mouse over the "definition" link, even they admidt this is a better indicator for how effective law enforcement is than actually crime rate.

yes we know that.

ShumaGorath wrote:You want per capita instances of unreported rape from me? Don't got that. Sorry.

Oh you don't now, no? Because that's what you stated earlier.

I stated "I'm pretty sure".

Here i'll quote myself using the quote button.

ShumaGorath wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.

I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.

Does "I'm pretty sure" mean "I have a mountain of evidence with absolute authority" in the UK now?

Im referring to the "Forgive me for trusting sources other then..." comment. The "trusted sources" which you have yet to point out.