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Made in gb
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Gods Country - ENGLAND

ShumaGorath wrote:
I said I'm pretty sure, which implies that I don't have emprical evidence and I stated that I trust sources, numerous ones, pertaining to the real crime situation on the ground in Saudi Arabia. The crime statistics they release are clearly doctored, they have massive issues with human trafficking, and they have a set of laws that logically reduce the reporting population for sex crimes heavilly. They do all this while under a set of laws that makes places like northern africa, afghanistan, and pakistan some of the most dangerous places to be a women in the world.

You want per capita instances of unreported rape from me? Don't got that. Sorry. Go ahead, keep believing that Saudi arabias violent crimes dropped 93% overnight and that they have the lowest per capita rapes on that list.


And no Western Country 'Doctors' their reports on Crime? The UK was blasted a few years ago because it showed that crime had dropped significantly in a year. What they didn't explain was how they'd downgradded some crimes like joyriding in order that it didn't show up on the reports.

I'm not saying that KSA is a saintly country, but put it into contex with US/Europe, their is a different culture here which lends itself to a lower crime. Its just that the Media report the sensational stuff. If in the West, the punishment for theft was the loss of a limb, you'd see the theft rate drop like an Essex Girls skirt at the sight of B.Pitt in their bedroom. If the punishment for being drunk and disorderly was lashes, you'd see a lot more sober people in the town centres at night.

A bit of everything really....... Titanicus, Bolt Action, Cruel Seas, Black Seas, Blood Red Skies, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, DUST Tactics, Zombicide the lit goes on............. 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

whatwhat wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
Grakmar wrote:I've been trying to stay out of this argument (although it is funny). But, ShumaGorath totally wins this point. You can't compare reported crime rates in a head-to-head fashion when the culture around said crime is drastically different.

The website you linked is interesting, but if you mouse over the "definition" link, even they admidt this is a better indicator for how effective law enforcement is than actually crime rate.


yes we know that.

ShumaGorath wrote:You want per capita instances of unreported rape from me? Don't got that. Sorry.


Oh you don't now, no? Because that's what you stated earlier.


I stated "I'm pretty sure".

Here i'll quote myself using the quote button.

ShumaGorath wrote:
TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.


I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.


Does "I'm pretty sure" mean "I have a mountain of evidence with absolute authority" in the UK now?


Im referring to the "Forgive me for trusting sources other then..." comment. The "trusted sources" which you have yet to point out.


Point to me a source that claims sexual crime rates in Saudi Arabia are low outside of ones directly presented by the saudi arabian government. Until then how about we assume I trust all of them but those.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter







ShumaGorath wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
Grakmar wrote:I've been trying to stay out of this argument (although it is funny). But, ShumaGorath totally wins this point. You can't compare reported crime rates in a head-to-head fashion when the culture around said crime is drastically different.

The website you linked is interesting, but if you mouse over the "definition" link, even they admidt this is a better indicator for how effective law enforcement is than actually crime rate.


yes we know that.

ShumaGorath wrote:You want per capita instances of unreported rape from me? Don't got that. Sorry.


Oh you don't now, no? Because that's what you stated earlier.


I stated "I'm pretty sure".

Here i'll quote myself using the quote button.

ShumaGorath wrote:
TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.


I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.


Does "I'm pretty sure" mean "I have a mountain of evidence with absolute authority" in the UK now?


Im referring to the "Forgive me for trusting sources other then..." comment. The "trusted sources" which you have yet to point out.


Point to me a source that claims sexual crime rates in Saudi Arabia are low outside of ones directly presented by the saudi arabian government. Until then how about we assume I trust all of them but those.


I'm not here to prove you wrong Shuma. I'm just bringing you up on something you have little basis for, and sources you state you have but don't at all. The fact that there is a lack of evidence saying otherwise doesn't mean your right. That's not really how it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean here is no evidence disproving god outright yet, should we therefore just asume he exists?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/18 19:19:51


   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

And no Western Country 'Doctors' their reports on Crime? The UK was blasted a few years ago because it showed that crime had dropped significantly in a year. What they didn't explain was how they'd downgradded some crimes like joyriding in order that it didn't show up on the reports.


A 93% drop isn't just a small level of doctoring. It's flat out insanity. Dropping rates of rape by 73% in a year is just as bad. These aren't doctored carefully, they're doctored plainly and with an obvious intent to obfuscate much higher numbers. These aren't pedestrian crimes or victimless ones, these are sexual and violent crimes that are typically the bellweather for the health of a law system.

I'm not saying that KSA is a saintly country, but put it into contex with US/Europe, their is a different culture here which lends itself to a lower crime.


And I'm saying that thats not true in the slightest, and only with the very heavily and very obviously doctored post 95 crime statistics do they come out smelling like roses. You don't stop 80% of all crime in five years by doing anything short of killing 80% of your population, that's just not how it works.

Its just that the Media report the sensational stuff. If in the West, the punishment for theft was the loss of a limb, you'd see the theft rate drop like an Essex Girls skirt at the sight of B.Pitt in their bedroom. If the punishment for being drunk and disorderly was lashes, you'd see a lot more sober people in the town centres at night.


Historically draconian physical punishments have not served to lesson petty crime rates. They didn't in medieval england, they didn't in the soviet union, they don't in modern china. To assume they do in Saudi Arabia while relying on state crime statistics in a state with a notoriously incapable law set is foolish. I don't think it's rape town, but their track record with human trafficking alone should set off dozens of alarms when assuming they are one of the best in the world concerning womens rights related crimes.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Gods Country - ENGLAND

ShumaGorath wrote:

Point to me a source that claims sexual crime rates in Saudi Arabia are low outside of ones directly presented by the saudi arabian government. Until then how about we assume I trust all of them but those.


Common sense would answer this for you. In a country where the segregation of sex's is STRICLY enforced so women and men do not mix socially, compared to a country where men and women can mix freely and do whatever they like with each other socially, its obvious which country would lend its environment to more Rape.

If you go to Maccy D's in KSA, women / familys have their own queue line, seperated by a partition, from a queue line for single men. Women / familys eat in one section of the restaraunt, single men the other, and frosted glass seperates them. How do you even 'eye up' a woman who looks like every other women in an Abya???

There is no entertainment here (other than shopping Malls) so the environment doesn't naturally encourage the sexs to mix. No bowling, Cinema, bars etc. Even the Zoo has Women Only days, Men Only days and Family days. If, as single man I go on a family or women day, I don't get in.

A bit of everything really....... Titanicus, Bolt Action, Cruel Seas, Black Seas, Blood Red Skies, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, DUST Tactics, Zombicide the lit goes on............. 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

whatwhat wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
Grakmar wrote:I've been trying to stay out of this argument (although it is funny). But, ShumaGorath totally wins this point. You can't compare reported crime rates in a head-to-head fashion when the culture around said crime is drastically different.

The website you linked is interesting, but if you mouse over the "definition" link, even they admidt this is a better indicator for how effective law enforcement is than actually crime rate.


yes we know that.

ShumaGorath wrote:You want per capita instances of unreported rape from me? Don't got that. Sorry.


Oh you don't now, no? Because that's what you stated earlier.


I stated "I'm pretty sure".

Here i'll quote myself using the quote button.

ShumaGorath wrote:
TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.


I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.


Does "I'm pretty sure" mean "I have a mountain of evidence with absolute authority" in the UK now?


Im referring to the "Forgive me for trusting sources other then..." comment. The "trusted sources" which you have yet to point out.


Point to me a source that claims sexual crime rates in Saudi Arabia are low outside of ones directly presented by the saudi arabian government. Until then how about we assume I trust all of them but those.


I'm not here to prove you wrong Shuma. I'm just bringing you up on something you have little basis for, and sources you state you have but don't at all. The fact that there is a lack of evidence saying otherwise doesn't mean your right. That's not really how it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean here is no evidence disproving god outright yet, should we therefore just asume he exists?


Thats why I said "pretty sure". Can we go back to the discussion now? I mean basically every stat tracking body in the UN and every major western country on the planet paints SAs crime rates at an order of magnitude higher then reported. They have one of the largest human trafficking black markets on the planet and their crime statistics are so clearly doctored a child could have drawn a more convincing set of stats with crayon. Like I stated before with stormy, I'm not going to give you a world education. Go look the gak up yourself, I've already posted crime statistics from a ten year period and quoted testimonial concerning embassy accounts of rape and kidnapping. This isn't an issue with a nice piechart for you to gawk at, like with most difficult issues it's difficult to boil down into a "Top 65 rapeiest places in the world" list because the stats don't reliably track like that in places with poor governance.

You want an education in foreign crime rates go to cambridge or something.


Common sense would answer this for you. In a country where the segregation of sex's is STRICLY enforced so women and men do not mix socially, compared to a country where men and women can mix freely and do whatever they like with each other socially, its obvious which country would lend its environment to more Rape.


Funny then how the best and worst countries in the world for rape both have entirely mixed populations, while saudi arabia, a country that lies about it's statistics and forces rapes to go unreported lest the victim be punished segregates women. It's an irrelevant thing to note since without an accurate case study you can't really objectively state that a lack of contact reduces rape. A lack of contact visibly ups the chances of rape in actual rape statistics, especially concerning prisons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/18 19:28:40


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Gods Country - ENGLAND

ShumaGorath wrote:

Historically draconian physical punishments have not served to lesson petty crime rates. They didn't in medieval england, they didn't in the soviet union, they don't in modern china. To assume they do in Saudi Arabia while relying on state crime statistics in a state with a notoriously incapable law set is foolish. I don't think it's rape town, but their track record with human trafficking alone should set off dozens of alarms when assuming they are one of the best in the world concerning womens rights related crimes.


Let me pose a question then. Which Country would you most likely shoplift in (assuming you were in aposition to do this) ?

Country West: Punishment = slap on wrist, possible ban from said shop
Country East: Punishment = Loss of Limb, outcasted from family because of shame caused

And your answer is............................................................

A bit of everything really....... Titanicus, Bolt Action, Cruel Seas, Black Seas, Blood Red Skies, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, DUST Tactics, Zombicide the lit goes on............. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

TheSecretSquig wrote:I'm sure we can all trawl the internet to find news articles to fit our arguments. Fact, there is more Rape per person in the US or Europe than the Middle East. For a woman to be raped in the Middle East means she was 'unprotected' by her family, a source of great shame on her family.


More REPORTS of rape. Big difference. Your statement above is one reason any statistics are extremely suspicious. It used to be that way here too.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter







ShumaGorath wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
Grakmar wrote:I've been trying to stay out of this argument (although it is funny). But, ShumaGorath totally wins this point. You can't compare reported crime rates in a head-to-head fashion when the culture around said crime is drastically different.

The website you linked is interesting, but if you mouse over the "definition" link, even they admidt this is a better indicator for how effective law enforcement is than actually crime rate.


yes we know that.

ShumaGorath wrote:You want per capita instances of unreported rape from me? Don't got that. Sorry.


Oh you don't now, no? Because that's what you stated earlier.


I stated "I'm pretty sure".

Here i'll quote myself using the quote button.

ShumaGorath wrote:
TheSecretSquig wrote:Women do not need to queue for anything, ever! They jump straight to the front of any queue and will always be served first. My Wife when walking around the Souk (markets) loved it as normally she's hasslted by every stall owner to buy something. Not here she isn't, they will not talk to her incase they offend me. Women are protected in this country as they are not stalked, hasstled. Yes there are RARE cases of this happening, but for every 1 event, there is probably 100,000 similar events in the UK.


I'm pretty sure instances of rape are more common in saudi arabia then they are in the UK.


Does "I'm pretty sure" mean "I have a mountain of evidence with absolute authority" in the UK now?


Im referring to the "Forgive me for trusting sources other then..." comment. The "trusted sources" which you have yet to point out.


Point to me a source that claims sexual crime rates in Saudi Arabia are low outside of ones directly presented by the saudi arabian government. Until then how about we assume I trust all of them but those.


I'm not here to prove you wrong Shuma. I'm just bringing you up on something you have little basis for, and sources you state you have but don't at all. The fact that there is a lack of evidence saying otherwise doesn't mean your right. That's not really how it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean here is no evidence disproving god outright yet, should we therefore just asume he exists?


Thats why I said "pretty sure". Can we go back to the discussion now? I mean basically every stat tracking body in the UN and every major western country on the planet paints SAs crime rates at an order of magnitude higher then reported. They have one of the largest human trafficking black markets on the planet and their crime statistics are so clearly doctored a child could have drawn a more convincing set of stats with crayon. Like I stated before with stormy, I'm not going to give you a world education. Go look the gak up yourself, I've already posted crime statistics from a ten year period and quoted testimonial concerning embassy accounts of rape and kidnapping. This isn't an issue with a nice piechart for you to gawk at, like with most difficult issues it's difficult to boil down into a "Top 65 rapeiest places in the world" list because the stats don't reliably track like that in places with poor governance.

You want an education in foreign crime rates go to cambridge or something.


Yeh that's right you said pretty sure. I see that. Thanks for letting me know three times now. You then went on to say you based what you said on sources, which you have still to point out. "Go look the gak up yourself" doesn't really cut it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/18 19:28:49


   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Fact, there is more Rape per person in the US or Europe than the Middle East.
Prove it.

Oh wait that's right, you can't, can you?

You don't HAVE the actual numbers for rapes, do you?

No, don't bother answering that question.

The answer is no.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

TheSecretSquig wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
I said I'm pretty sure, which implies that I don't have emprical evidence and I stated that I trust sources, numerous ones, pertaining to the real crime situation on the ground in Saudi Arabia. The crime statistics they release are clearly doctored, they have massive issues with human trafficking, and they have a set of laws that logically reduce the reporting population for sex crimes heavilly. They do all this while under a set of laws that makes places like northern africa, afghanistan, and pakistan some of the most dangerous places to be a women in the world.

You want per capita instances of unreported rape from me? Don't got that. Sorry. Go ahead, keep believing that Saudi arabias violent crimes dropped 93% overnight and that they have the lowest per capita rapes on that list.


And no Western Country 'Doctors' their reports on Crime? The UK was blasted a few years ago because it showed that crime had dropped significantly in a year. What they didn't explain was how they'd downgradded some crimes like joyriding in order that it didn't show up on the reports.

I'm not saying that KSA is a saintly country, but put it into contex with US/Europe, their is a different culture here which lends itself to a lower crime. Its just that the Media report the sensational stuff. If in the West, the punishment for theft was the loss of a limb, you'd see the theft rate drop like an Essex Girls skirt at the sight of B.Pitt in their bedroom. If the punishment for being drunk and disorderly was lashes, you'd see a lot more sober people in the town centres at night.

No they just leave the country and party then come back. Or beat the hell out of/kill their servants.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Coastal Bliss in the Shadow of Sizewell





Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

Wait, the same country that has lashed women for being dragged into cars and then raped, because you know she shouldn't have been there.

Sorry but I have no respect for a country where women can't drive, go outside without permission and are seen as property. It's 2010 not 1310, someone send Saudia Arabia a calendar, they've obviously got the wrong one.

UN fail once again.

"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.

Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

TheSecretSquig wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:

Point to me a source that claims sexual crime rates in Saudi Arabia are low outside of ones directly presented by the saudi arabian government. Until then how about we assume I trust all of them but those.


Common sense would answer this for you. In a country where the segregation of sex's is STRICLY enforced so women and men do not mix socially, compared to a country where men and women can mix freely and do whatever they like with each other socially, its obvious which country would lend its environment to more Rape.



Yes the one where the women are oppressed. Thanks for supporting my argument.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

TheSecretSquig wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:

Historically draconian physical punishments have not served to lesson petty crime rates. They didn't in medieval england, they didn't in the soviet union, they don't in modern china. To assume they do in Saudi Arabia while relying on state crime statistics in a state with a notoriously incapable law set is foolish. I don't think it's rape town, but their track record with human trafficking alone should set off dozens of alarms when assuming they are one of the best in the world concerning womens rights related crimes.


Let me pose a question then. Which Country would you most likely shoplift in (assuming you were in aposition to do this) ?

Country West: Punishment = slap on wrist, possible ban from said shop
Country East: Punishment = Loss of Limb, outcasted from family because of shame caused

And your answer is............................................................


The one where I have less money to purchase things with legitimately, as is the actual correlating statistic. People don't steal because it's fun in any statistically meaningful amount. They steal because it's their means of obtaining needed items.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/11/18 19:32:59


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Gods Country - ENGLAND

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Wait, the same country that has lashed women for being dragged into cars and then raped, because you know she shouldn't have been there.

Sorry but I have no respect for a country where women can't drive, go outside without permission and are seen as property. It's 2010 not 1310, someone send Saudia Arabia a calendar, they've obviously got the wrong one.

UN fail once again.



Please read my post from a few pages back BEFORE you post drawl. It is NOT illegal for women to drive here, my Wife has driven here only 3 weeks ago. A woman does NOT need permission to go out and about here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ShumaGorath wrote:
TheSecretSquig wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:

Historically draconian physical punishments have not served to lesson petty crime rates. They didn't in medieval england, they didn't in the soviet union, they don't in modern china. To assume they do in Saudi Arabia while relying on state crime statistics in a state with a notoriously incapable law set is foolish. I don't think it's rape town, but their track record with human trafficking alone should set off dozens of alarms when assuming they are one of the best in the world concerning womens rights related crimes.


Let me pose a question then. Which Country would you most likely shoplift in (assuming you were in aposition to do this) ?

Country West: Punishment = slap on wrist, possible ban from said shop
Country East: Punishment = Loss of Limb, outcasted from family because of shame caused

And your answer is............................................................


The one where I have less money to purchase things with legitimately, as is the actual correlating statistic. People don't steal because it's fun in any statistically meaningful amount. They steal because it's their means of obtaining needed items.


Doesn't amke the crime of theft acceptable. And you didn't answer the question because we both know the answer would screw your argument.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/18 19:36:15


A bit of everything really....... Titanicus, Bolt Action, Cruel Seas, Black Seas, Blood Red Skies, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, DUST Tactics, Zombicide the lit goes on............. 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Doesn't amke the crime of theft acceptable. And you didn't answer the question because we both know the answer would screw your argument.


I already answered it. Do I need to steal? In that case I do it. That is how crime statistics concerning theft break down, harsh punishment does little but deter repeat offenses. You think china has such a large drug problem because it's laws aren't tough enough? You think the theft in the Congo is so prevalent because they're "lenient" on people? Need trumps punishment every time.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Gods Country - ENGLAND

ShumaGorath wrote:
Doesn't amke the crime of theft acceptable. And you didn't answer the question because we both know the answer would screw your argument.


I already answered it. Do I need to steal? In that case I do it. That is how crime statistics concerning theft break down, harsh punishment does little but deter repeat offenses. You think china has such a large drug problem because it's laws aren't tough enough? You think the theft in the Congo is so prevalent because they're "lenient" on people? Need trumps punishment every time.


Thankyou for supporting my argument. Its need and desperation. In the UK, most shoplifting is done on the spare of the moment, NOT need. Now, if in the UK the punishment was as I've stated, the spare of the moment crime would disappear.

And no you didn't answer it. Given the same set of personal circumstances, which country would you steal in?

A bit of everything really....... Titanicus, Bolt Action, Cruel Seas, Black Seas, Blood Red Skies, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, DUST Tactics, Zombicide the lit goes on............. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Coastal Bliss in the Shadow of Sizewell





Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

@Scarlett Squig - Unless there's been some major changes in the past couple of years a lot of Saudi's would not allow their women to drive. So illegal or not, its still looked down upon, as is going out without a Guardian.

Also hows that womens vote coming along?

"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.

Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

No matter how much you want to defend the country, it still oppresses women, and heck, female travelers are warned not to go there. And even if you do go there you're not allowed to leave the airport until a "sponsor" arrives. Foreign women who are married to Saudi men aren't allowed to leave the country without his permission.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/11/18 19:57:24


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Gods Country - ENGLAND

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:@Scarlett Squig - Unless there's been some major changes in the past couple of years a lot of Saudi's would not allow their women to drive. So illegal or not, its still looked down upon, as is going out without a Guardian.

Also hows that womens vote coming along?


This is a BIG difference from you saying its ilegal to drive. My Wife part time in the UK Drag Races her own Hot Rot she built. I'd consider her in some circumstances a better driver than I. However, I would NOT let her drive in any city in KSA. It is life and death here on the roads in the cities. She would not argue with me. I'd do this for her safety. Does this make me an dominant oppressive male? Everyday I drive to work here and pass multiple car accidents that wouldn't look out of place in a horror film.

Going out without a guardian is as common as in the UK. I live here, I know. Women are everywhere on there own.

As for the vote, I think you need to change your statement......................... "Also, hows that vote comming on".

The King rules, there is no vote for anyone, women or men.

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TheSecretSquig wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Doesn't amke the crime of theft acceptable. And you didn't answer the question because we both know the answer would screw your argument.


I already answered it. Do I need to steal? In that case I do it. That is how crime statistics concerning theft break down, harsh punishment does little but deter repeat offenses. You think china has such a large drug problem because it's laws aren't tough enough? You think the theft in the Congo is so prevalent because they're "lenient" on people? Need trumps punishment every time.


Thankyou for supporting my argument. Its need and desperation. In the UK, most shoplifting is done on the spare of the moment, NOT need. Now, if in the UK the punishment was as I've stated, the spare of the moment crime would disappear.


Except thats never happened in any country in history that implemented draconian physical punishments. So no. It wouldn't. Just like it didn't in SA which had a rate of theft an order of magnitude higher in during the 1995-2000 period before they began to doctor their crime statistics nationally. Saudi arabia has a lower reported theft rate then is implied under vlad the impaler, who would kill you family if you stole. It has a lower reported rate of theft then north korea which punishes people for three generations. It's not "the culture" it's "the corruption" that causes SAs crime rates to be so "low".


And no you didn't answer it. Given the same set of personal circumstances, which country would you steal in?


If I need to steal then both, if I don't then neither.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/18 20:03:49


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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Gods Country - ENGLAND

Melissia wrote:No matter how much you want to defend the country, it still oppresses women, and heck, female travelers are warned not to go there. And even if you do go there you're not allowed to leave the airport until a "sponsor" arrives. Foreign women who are married to Saudi men aren't allowed to leave the country without his permission.


I agree. Its just not as bad as people make out. And the argument I've put accross (if you take the time to read previous posts on pg 5 i think) is that the King is making big changes in support of women.

As I live here, you're Airport scenario is untrue. Its all about what which type of visa you have. Nieither women or men come here as tourists, as tourist visa's don't exist. I arrive at the airport, and am free to leave / go where ever. When my Wife came for a visit, no one checked if I was waiting for her, same when my parents came.

The scenario your descibing is for a sponsored workers visa, which is not the majority of visas. You think thats bad, I go to the US, alll my personal details MUST be forwarded to US border customs before the plane lands, I'm photographed and fingerprinted, and I've not done anything other than arrive!!!

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USA

No it's not, it's for just traveling to the country, no workers visa involved.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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TheSecretSquig wrote:

As for the vote, I think you need to change your statement......................... "Also, hows that vote comming on".

The King rules, there is no vote for anyone, women or men.


There where local elections in 2005, women where not allowed to vote, just because it is currently under suspension, doesn't mean it never happened, and when it did happen they where banned.

"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.

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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Gods Country - ENGLAND

Melissia wrote:No it's not, it's for just traveling to the country, no workers visa involved.


I live here. I've made multiple visits back home to the UK. I've NEVER had to wait for a 'sponsor' to come and escort me from the airport. This was the same for my Wife when she'd visited, and my parents, and the same for guys I work with from the US, Aus, Ger and Spain.

I'm not sure where you are getting your info from, but seeing as I've done it / live here, I think I'd know. I have a standard visa. Then there is a business visa, no escort required. Then there is a Pilgrim visa for Muslims peforming Hajj, no escort required. A worker visa (the minority of visa applications) do require an ecort.


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If there is a social stigma for the victim of a rape and possibly punishment for it as well it's not hard to see how the cases of rape being reported could be far, far lower than they actually are.


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USA

You're not a female traveler.

Regardless, this is off of the U.S. Department of State's travel guide for Saudi Arabia:

Saudi religious police have accosted or arrested foreigners, including U.S. citizens, for [...] association by a female with a male to whom she is not related.

[...]

Most women in these areas [particularly Riyadh and the central part of the Kingdom] therefore wear an Abaya and carry a headscarf to avoid being accosted.

[...]

Women who are arrested for socializing with a man who is not a relative may be charged with prostitution. Some restaurants, particularly fast-food outlets, have refused to serve women who are not accompanied by a close male relative. In addition, many restaurants no longer have a "family section" in which women are permitted to eat. These restrictions are not always posted, and in some cases women violating this policy have been arrested.

[...]

Women visitors and residents are required to be met by their sponsor upon arrival. [...] Women considering relocating to Saudi Arabia should be keenly aware that women and children residing in Saudi Arabia as members of a Saudi household (including adult American-citizen women married to Saudi men, adult American-citizen women who are the unmarried daughters of Saudi fathers, and American-citizen boys under the age of 21 who are the sons of Saudi fathers) require the permission of the Saudi male head of their household to leave the country. Married women require their husband's permission to depart the country, while unmarried women and children require the permission of their father or male guardian. The U.S. Embassy can intercede with the Saudi government to request exit permission for an adult American woman (wife or daughter of a Saudi citizen), but there is no guarantee of success, or even of timely response. Mothers are not able to obtain permission for the departure of minor children without the father's agreement.

[...]

A married woman should be aware that she must have her husband's permission to depart or for their children to depart Saudi Arabia. This is true even if the woman and/or children are U.S. citizens and even if her husband does not have Saudi nationality.

[...]

Short-term male visitors may drive on their U.S. driver's license. American men employed in Saudi Arabia should obtain a local driver's license with the Department of Traffic Police. Women are not allowed to drive or ride bicycles on public roads.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Melissia wrote:Women visitors and residents are required to be met by their sponsor upon arrival. [...]


Did you replace "Women traveling alone, who are not met by sponsors, have experienced delays before being allowed to enter the country or to continue on other flights. " with [...] yourself or was the version I found different to the one you did.

   
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USA

It's under ENTRY / EXIT REQUIREMENTS, paragraph one.

I put the [...] there because like hell am I going to quote every single word on that document, which is over 5500 words long.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/11/18 20:35:48


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter







Well you missed out a fairly important bit don't you think? I mean, a bit which contradicts you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The scentence I just gave you comes straight after the one your saying backs up your point:

"Women visitors and residents are required to be met by their sponsor upon arrival. Women traveling alone, who are not met by sponsors, have experienced delays before being allowed to enter the country or to continue on other flights."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/18 20:37:27


   
 
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