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kill dem stunties wrote:The answer to which is of course they do.

/agree

Lordhat wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:The answer to which is of course they do.

/agree

QFT

Lordhat wrote:

Azzedar101 wrote:i have read most of the thread but im still confused can a monolith suffer mishap? and be destroyed?

And be destroyed? No. Everyone agrees with this point. The contention is whether a Monolith actually has to roll on the mishap chart in the first place.

Lordhat, you're reading too much into Azzedar's question. He didn't ask whether the Monolith can be destroyed by Deep Striking within 1" of the enemy (which we all agree it can't), but whether it can Mishap and be destroyed in general. Which it still can by scattering into Impassible or off the table.

Mannahnin wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Azzedar101 wrote:i have read most of the thread but im still confused can a monolith suffer mishap? and be destroyed?

And be destroyed? No. Everyone agrees with this point. The contention is whether a Monolith actually has to roll on the mishap chart in the first place.

Lordhat, you're reading too much into Azzedar's question. He didn't ask whether the Monolith can be destroyed by Deep Striking within 1" of the enemy (which we all agree it can't), but whether it can Mishap and be destroyed in general. Which it still can by scattering into Impassible or off the table.

Or, on top of friendly models.

Since the discussion keeps going, please indulge me by answering one last question:

If my codex says “Because the tank is slow, do not move it 6” if it moves in the movement phase. Instead, move 4” inches.

A new edition comes out that says in the movement phase roll a die for vehicles. On a 1-2 you move 6”, a 3-4 you move 9” and a 5-6 you move 12”. If I move this tank in the new edition, do I move 4”, 9” or 12” depending on my roll or do I always move 4”?

Thanks.

grotblaster wrote:Since the discussion keeps going, please indulge me by answering one last question:

If my codex says “Because the tank is slow, do not move it 6” if it moves in the movement phase. Instead, move 4” inches.

A new edition comes out that says in the movement phase roll a die for vehicles. On a 1-2 you move 6”, a 3-4 you move 9” and a 5-6 you move 12”. If I move this tank in the new edition, do I move 4”, 9” or 12” depending on my roll or do I always move 4”?

Thanks.

A more correct question would be:

If my codex says “Because the tank is slow, it may only move up to 6” if it moves in the movement phase.

A new edition comes out that says in the movement phase roll a die for vehicles. On a 1-2 you move 2”, a 3-4 you move 5” and a 5-6 you move 10”. If I move this tank in the new edition, do I move 2”, 5” or 10” depending on my roll or do I always move 6”? The answer is of course you can move 2", 5" or 6" (as you can't move more than 6" but nothing in the codex rule excludes the other 2 options.

that's alot more like the monolith ... Been looking at it for a while going ... WTH ...

My Disclaimer: Everything in my post is only my opinion of how I read the RAW. I do not think I’m smarter than the other users here nor do I think I know the rules any better. I also had to make a new account since my older one isn't allowing me to log in even after a password reset but I have spent a lot more than just today reading the forums here but very rarely post. Sorry about the extended post I wanted to be as clear and concise as possible so that everyone in the forum could understand my line of thinking even if they do not agree with it. I also did not include analogies as I don't think they hold water in a RAW type argument.

The argument to me here seems to center around when the Necron player may use the Monolith Deep Strike special rule in place of the normal Deep Strike rule in the 5th edition codex. As soon as the Necron Codex may intervene as it were, then everything following in the codex takes precedence.

Necron codex states: Deep Strike: A Monolith may therefore be deployed by Deep Strike if the special rules for the mission being played include it. Because of the sheer mass of the Monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1” when it arrives. Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith

The first things I look at are the preconditions of any special rule that must be met so that I can use said special rule and the effects of it. Also, once I meet the pre-conditions I can exclude the main rule book unless part of the effects of that special rule point back to the main rule book (i.e. Pain Token granting a special rule that points back to the main rule book)

So the first part of the special rule "A Monolith may therefore be deployed by Deep Strike if the special rules for the mission being played include it" grants the Monolith the ability to Deep Strike, which points the player back to the main rule book to use the Deep Strike special rule as it is not defined in the codex. Then I start the deep striking process from the main rule book once I of course have met the preconditions of making reserve roles.

1. Place Monolith on the table at least 1” away from an enemy/friendly model, and not in impassible terrain.
2. Roll for Scatter

Now the debate is when can the rest of the Monolith special rule be activated, which of course can only be determined by finding what the "Initial" pre-conditions of the rule are. Here we have a very clear if statement that outlines when the rule first comes into play " if there are enemy within 1” when it arrives". If any other main rulebook condition occurs other than what is in this if statement then the rule never comes into play, which is why impassable terrain, friendly models, and missing the table are all not friends of the Monolith.

So say that initial pre-condition is met, we now put the main rule book back onto the table and can now use the codex, where we have our effects. "it is not destroyed, instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith". I have taken the specific part of the sentence "it is not destroyed" out because it is not part of the initial pre-conditions (if it where it would say to the effect of "as a result of the monolith being destroyed/if the monolith is destroyed"). It is not destroyed is being used in the sentence as a reference to the second sentence and is what "Instead" in the second sentence is referring to.

It is not destroyed is the initial effect of the set pre-conditions of the Monolith Deep Strike special rule, not a new precondition that must be met. Because there is no reference to look back at the main rule book because the Monolith being destroyed isn't a special rule that must be referred to, one can continue on with the codex effects without ever having to refer back to the main rule book.

The next effect says that instead of being destroyed the Monolith may move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith. It doesn't matter that the Monolith wouldn't be destroyed 100% of the time because after the special rule was activated with the initially met pre-conditions there was never again a reference from the codex stating that the player must refer back to the main rule book. A main problem that most old codex’s get into when they refer to rules that no longer exist in the main rule book.

With that said the Monolith can enact its ability to avoid destruction and instead move all enemy models out of the way, and even though we know that its destruction doesn't always apply from the mishap table, we never got to it because the initial conditions of the Monolith's Deep Strike special ability were met before it.

zeshin wrote:

grotblaster wrote:Since the discussion keeps going, please indulge me by answering one last question:

If my codex says “Because the tank is slow, do not move it 6” if it moves in the movement phase. Instead, move 4” inches.

A new edition comes out that says in the movement phase roll a die for vehicles. On a 1-2 you move 6”, a 3-4 you move 9” and a 5-6 you move 12”. If I move this tank in the new edition, do I move 4”, 9” or 12” depending on my roll or do I always move 4”?

Thanks.

A more correct question would be:

If my codex says “Because the tank is slow, it may only move up to 6” if it moves in the movement phase.

A new edition comes out that says in the movement phase roll a die for vehicles. On a 1-2 you move 2”, a 3-4 you move 5” and a 5-6 you move 10”. If I move this tank in the new edition, do I move 2”, 5” or 10” depending on my roll or do I always move 6”? The answer is of course you can move 2", 5" or 6" (as you can't move more than 6" but nothing in the codex rule excludes the other 2 options.

It is important retain the structure of the rule which your example does not do.

The current rule:
"Because of the sheer mass of the Monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives. Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary...."
Structure is [Fluff], [prohibition from using normal rulebook action] if [condition under which normal action does not take place]. Instead, [replacement for normal rulebook action].

As you point out, movement rates can be variable, while being destroyed is not. I understand RoF to be static, so let's use that instead.

So instead let's say the codex reads "Because the tank is slow, its assault cannon does not fire 4 shots if firing in the shooting phase. Instead it fires 3 shots."

The new rulebook says assault cannons roll a die when firing in the shooting phase. 1-2 it fires 2 shots, 3-4 it fires 4 shots, 5-6 it fires 6 shots. Does my tank's assault cannon fire 2,3,or 6 shots depending on the roll or always 3 shots?

You do not change or ignore rules or parts of rules that are not overwritten.

If you are not given permission to ignore being delayed or misplaced because of deepstrike, you do not.

See: Tau target priority test requiring wargear.

Kirsanth,
Please humor me for a moment.
In your opinion, how many times would the assault cannon above fire and why?
Thanks.

It would vary.

The example states that instead of 4, 3 is done.

There is no allowance to replace 6 with 3 any more than there is to replace 4 with 6.

If I am reading your post correctly.

Editing to add:
If you had just started playing 40k and had no idea the monolith rules were old, how could you assert that a monolith can ignore being delayed or misplaced?

kirsanth wrote:You do not change or ignore rules or parts of rules that are not overwritten.

If you are not given permission to ignore being delayed or misplaced because of deepstrike, you do not.

See: Tau target priority test requiring wargear.

On the contrary, the Monolith doesn't have to role on the Mishap table because the codex gives a clear set of effects as to what happens after the conditions of its special rule are met, and those are included in "if there are enemy within 1” when it arrives". Unless someone has a very valid reason as to why "it is not destroyed" is somehow a new precondition or a reason that someone would have to refer back to the main rulebook after the the initial precondition is met, then as RAW IMHO the Monolith does not mishap because in the order of Deep Striking steps it does not get that far.

Being destroyed is the result that the rule allows to be avoided.

To say otherwise is mis-construing the rules.

Kirsanth,
Ok thanks again. I would say it always fires 3 times if firing in the shooting phase regardless of whether 4 shots were going to be fired otherwise. We consistently disagree.

kirsanth wrote:
Editing to add:
If you had just started playing 40k and had no idea the monolith rules were old, how could you assert that a monolith can ignore being delayed or misplaced?

Being destroyed is the result that the rule allows to be avoided.

To say otherwise is mis-construing the rules.

1st post-
For someone just starting 40k I honestly think that they could very easily convinced that the rules work with either argument. Now without outside interference I think its really all how they interpret the rules on their own and their line of thinking.

2nd post-
Yes it being destroyed is the initial "effect" that the rule allows to be avoided, but this is not a new pre-condition as it were and is not a necessary result to get to the next effect of instead moving the enemy models. If the initial pre-condition of "if there are enemy within 1” when it arrives" was read correctly then the player has already veered away from the main rulebook and there is no referrence to look back into the rulebook for any rule clarification, the codex and all the effects take precedence from that point on. Even if not ALL the effects may apply in the new rules.

It it most certainly not mis-contruing the rules

Edit: Small grammer edit

grotblaster wrote:Kirsanth,
Ok thanks again. I would say it always fires 3 times if firing in the shooting phase regardless of whether 4 shots were going to be fired otherwise. We consistently disagree.

I noticed that too. If you noticed my first few posts as well, I realize almost everyone plays the way you are asserting. We do, generally. It is not supported, but it is in line with the original rules--and it is not like giving Necrons an edge makes them unbeatable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nior Eternal wrote:
2nd post-
Yes it being destroyed is the initial "effect" that the rule allows to be avoided,

And yet the rule does not allow misplaced or delayed to be avoided.
Until you know which it is, there is no rule saying that the MISHAP is avoided.

I did notice and certainly agree that regardless of how you play: at the end of the day it's just a question of whether or not the necron player gets to put another toy or two on the table before he phases out

kirsanth wrote: And yet the rule does not allow misplaced or delayed to be avoided.
Until you know which it is, there is no rule saying that the MISHAP is avoided.

We may have to agree to disagree on the RAW then. The way I read the RAW is the Monolith doesn't have to have a reason to avoid the other two results because "if there are enemy within 1” when it arrives" happens before you roll on the mishap table and satisfies the pre-conditions of its special rule. It is not destroyed was not part of the "If statement" and therefore does not need to be met in order to use the codex special rule and veer off from the main rule book. Once you meet the preconditions of a special rule you do not need to refer back to the main rule book unless the special rule tells you to. In this case it does not.

The rule is not "if there are enemies within 1" when it arrives, move them".

"it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives."
There is a period there. The sentence ends.
The next part is what happens instead of being destroyed thus the "instead" that it starts with.

"Instead, move any models that are in the way"

So.
You are not allowed to move the models instead of being delayed.
You are not allowed to move the models instead of being misplaced.

Its not "if there is an enemy within 1 inch", its if there is an enemy within 1 inch & it would be destroyed, instead.

kill dem stunties wrote:Its not "if there is an enemy within 1 inch", its if there is an enemy within 1 inch & it would be destroyed, instead.

Your changing how the wording is, there is not & it would be destroyed. Its " it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1” when it arrives". It being destroyed is not and never was a pre-condition for the rule to take effect. It is part of the rules effects and happens before any role on the mishap table is made. It doesn't need to have a rule against the mishap table as the rule is triggered before the mishap table is triggered. It doesn't need to be destroyed becuase that part of the rule was not in addition to "if there are enemy within 1” when it arrives" but instead part of its effects. Its clear and that is RAW.

Nior Eternal wrote: Its clear and that is RAW.

Neither is true.
I quoted the rules and did not change the wording.

What many here are losing sight of is the very basics of our game.

Look for a moment at page vi and vii of the rulebook. These pages detail what you need to play the game of Warhammer 40K.

One of the items listed is the Rulebook.

The next page refers to building an army, and it is here that we are told it is a good idea to get hold of the codex.

So to play the game, you need a rulebook first. That is why they are sometimes referred to as the core rules.

The individual codex details the traits of the units in the army and includes specific rules that an army may follow.

Like the Space Marine Codex where under drop pods, we find that if a pod scatters on top of impassable terrain or another model we reduce the scatter distance.

How do we arrive at this situation? By following the rules for deep striking in the core rulebook. Here's what happens.

I place the drop pod on the table. I roll for scatter. Say I roll an arrow. I then roll 2D6. The pod scatters that number of inches in that direction. Now lets say that scattering that far will land the pod on another model. The rulebook says that I have suffered a mishap and will roll on the mishap table.

But wait! The Space Marine codex says that if the pod scatters onto another model, I reduce the distance to avoid the obstacle. I do so.
I have now followed the core rules and the special rule in the Space Marine Codex.

Now lets try this with the Monolith. I place the Monolith on the table. I roll for scatter. Say I roll an arrow. I then roll 2D6. The Monolith scatters that number of inches in that direction. Now lets say that scattering that far will land the Monolith within 1" of an enemy model. The rulebook says that I have suffered a mishap and will roll on the mishap table. Now I roll on the mishap table. If I roll a '1' or '2' the Monolith is destroyed.

But wait! The Necron Codex says that if the Monolith scatters (arrives) within 1" of an enemy model, it is not destroyed. Instead, the enemy model(s) are moved to make room for the monolith. I do so.
I have now followed the core rules and the special rule in the Necron Codex.

It is true that a special rule in a codex can and will overrule the special rule in the core rules, but you can't get to that point without following the core rules first!

time wizard wrote:
But wait! The Necron Codex says that if the Monolith scatters (arrives) within 1" of an enemy model, it is not destroyed. Instead, the enemy model(s) are moved to make room for the monolith. I do so.
I have now followed the core rules and the special rule in the Necron Codex.

It is true that a special rule in a codex can and will overrule the special rule in the core rules, but you can't get to that point without following the core rules first!

The Monolith has a special rule for deep striking called Deep Strike. This rule differs from the BRB rule by the same name as such it takes precedence to (replaces) the one in the rulebook. The Monolith's special deepstike rule is the Monolith is not destroyed when landing on the enemy instead move the enemy out of the way.

It's that simple. Special codex rule trumps general BRB rule.

Incorrect, as it does not tell you how to resolve deepstrike. For example it has no instructions on how to place an initial "marker" model, and so on.

Nice try but 2/10

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The Monolith has a special rule for deep striking called Deep Strike. This rule differs from the BRB rule by the same name as such it takes precedence to (replaces) the one in the rulebook. The Monolith's special deepstike rule is the Monolith is not destroyed when landing on the enemy instead move the enemy out of the way.
It's that simple. Special codex rule trumps general BRB rule.

Let's assume that you're correct for a minute. Where do you place the monolith on the table? How far does the monolith scatter?

Also, you can only use your special Deep Strike rule if "the special rules for the mission being played allow it." (C:N P21) I'm afraid that none of the 40K missions mention the special Monolith Deep Strike rule.

It isn't a new rule. You're allowed to deploy by deep strike and follow the rules in the rule book with the exceptions listed. If you get to a situation where the monolith would be destroyed due to being within 1" of enemy models (not friendly models, table edges or impassable terrain) then you can move those models.

time wizard wrote:
Like the Space Marine Codex where under drop pods, we find that if a pod scatters on top of impassable terrain or another model we reduce the scatter distance.
How do we arrive at this situation? By following the rules for deep striking in the core rulebook. Here's what happens.
I place the drop pod on the table. I roll for scatter. Say I roll an arrow. I then roll 2D6. The pod scatters that number of inches in that direction. Now lets say that scattering that far will land the pod on another model. The rulebook says that I have suffered a mishap and will roll on the mishap table.
But wait! The Space Marine codex says that if the pod scatters onto another model, I reduce the distance to avoid the obstacle. I do so.
I have now followed the core rules and the special rule in the Space Marine Codex.
Now lets try this with the Monolith. I place the Monolith on the table. I roll for scatter. Say I roll an arrow. I then roll 2D6. The Monolith scatters that number of inches in that direction. Now lets say that scattering that far will land the Monolith within 1" of an enemy model. The rulebook says that I have suffered a mishap and will roll on the mishap table.

But wait! The codex says I have a special rule if the monolith lands within 1" of a model. What does it say happens under this circumstance? The monolith is not destroyed. Ok, check. What happens instead? The models are moved to make room. I do so.
Excellent. Rulebook and codex rules followed.

that was 4th edition when mishaps destroyed you outright ... now there's a 2/3 chance you will not be destroyed ... If you wouldnt be destroyed why would I bother getting outta your way?

Remember a mishap is no longer a destroyed ...

TheGreatAvatar wrote:It's that simple. Special codex rule trumps general BRB rule.

When it applies, but since destroying the monolith is not the same as rolling mishap. . . oh wait. . .