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Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





The fact the Monolith is not destroyed when landing on enemy models is irrelevant in fifth addition. The enemy models are moved out of the way, per the codex rules.


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Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The fact . . .

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






TheGreatAvatar wrote:The fact the Monolith is not destroyed when landing on enemy models is irrelevant in fifth addition. The enemy models are moved out of the way, per the codex rules.


There are two ways that rule can be read:

If the monolith lands within 1" of an enemy it is not destroyed. Instead [of being destroyed] move the enemy out of the way.
or
If the monolith lands within 1" of an enemy it is not destroyed. Instead [of landing within 1" of the enemy] move the enemy out of the way.

Now, the first interpretation keeps the monolith from being immune to being destroyed (by mishaps involving enemy models) but allows other results. The second makes it immune to all mishaps (involving enemy models). Nothing in the rule suggests that it was supposed to be immune to all mishaps (involving enemy models)
   
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

Hey Avatar, why isn't it relevant? I could swear it's on the mishap table ... that would make it ... whats that word ... relevant?

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




TGA - so now you're entirely ignoring that 5th edition has a mishap table?

I assume you are retracting your "monolith special DS rule" argument now?
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Why is the fact the monolith isn't destroyed when it lands on the enemy a factor in the use of the mishap table? The special rule grants a special benefit, NOT being destroyed from landing on enemy models. This special benefit is NOT a condition of the rest of the rule, moving the enemy models out of the way.

As I've pointed out, this special benefit is moot in the 5th addition since landing on enemy models no longer results in the unit immediately being destroyed. The Monolith rule covers moving the enemy models out of the way.

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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






So, just to get this straight, you are suggesting that the rule should be read as follows:

If the monolith lands within 1" of an enemy it is not destroyed. Instead [of landing within 1" of the enemy] move the enemy out of the way.
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

TheGreatAvatar wrote: Why is the fact the monolith isn't destroyed when it lands on the enemy a factor in the use of the mishap table?
Because being destroyed due to landing on any model or within 1" of an enemy model necessitates a roll on the mishap table, one possible result of which is "destroyed"


TheGreatAvatar wrote:The special rule grants a special benefit, NOT being destroyed from landing on enemy models.
That is incorrect. The special rule only covers landing within 1" of an enemy model. If a Monolith scatters on top of a model and rolls a '1' or '2' on the mishap table it is destroyed.


TheGreatAvatar wrote:This special benefit is NOT a condition of the rest of the rule, moving the enemy models out of the way.
That is correct. If, for example, the Monolith rolls a '3' it goes back into reserve and the enemy models remain in situ.


TheGreatAvatar wrote:As I've pointed out, this special benefit is moot in the 5th addition since landing on enemy models no longer results in the unit immediately being destroyed.
Correct again. Destruction is only one of 3 possibilites occurring from a deep strike mishap. Any model that suffers a mishap must roll on the mishap table.


TheGreatAvatar wrote:The Monolith rule covers moving the enemy models out of the way.
Yes, but only if the monolith would otherwise suffer a "destroyed" mishap result. The other 2 possible mishap results would be followed normally.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in us
Cog in the Machine




Epic Loot Centerville Ohio

Scott-S6 wrote:
TheGreatAvatar wrote:The fact the Monolith is not destroyed when landing on enemy models is irrelevant in fifth addition. The enemy models are moved out of the way, per the codex rules.


There are two ways that rule can be read:

If the monolith lands within 1" of an enemy it is not destroyed. Instead [of being destroyed] move the enemy out of the way.
or
If the monolith lands within 1" of an enemy it is not destroyed. Instead [of landing within 1" of the enemy] move the enemy out of the way.

Now, the first interpretation keeps the monolith from being immune to being destroyed (by mishaps involving enemy models) but allows other results. The second makes it immune to all mishaps (involving enemy models). Nothing in the rule suggests that it was supposed to be immune to all mishaps (involving enemy models)



Bringing in the animal support as well
I think we all agree that the first interpretation above is correct. What we disagree on is whether the prescribed action, "moving models" is implemented when the monolith is "within 1"of enemy models" or when it would be destroyed.

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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






grotblaster wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:If the monolith lands within 1" of an enemy it is not destroyed. Instead [of being destroyed] move the enemy out of the way.
or
If the monolith lands within 1" of an enemy it is not destroyed. Instead [of landing within 1" of the enemy] move the enemy out of the way.


I think we all agree that the first interpretation above is correct. What we disagree on is whether the prescribed action, "moving models" is implemented when the monolith is "within 1"of enemy models" or when it would be destroyed.

If the first interpretation is correct then the second sentence is not triggered until the monolith is about to be destroyed.

In order to trigger the moving simply because the monolith is within 1" the second interpretation would have to be correct and I think that interpretation is a pretty major stretch.
   
Made in us
Cog in the Machine




Epic Loot Centerville Ohio

I draw a chance card in Monopoly. It says, "Because of your slumlord tactics, Do not pass go and do not collect $200 if you drew this card. Instead, proceed directly to jail."
This is read as "If you drew this card, do not pass go and do not collect $200. Instead [of passing go and collecting $200] go directly to jail."

It seems very clear that the action of "proceeding directly to jail" replaces "passing go and collecting $200".

I am on a board square where the "Go" square is between me and jail, so I proceed to jail instead. But what if I'm on a square where I can proceed directly to jail without passing "go". Do I not go to jail now?

Just because "proceed directly to jail" replaces "passing go..." doesn't mean that I ignore the directive to proceed to jail if I would not be passing go in the process. Instead, I proceed to jail anytime I "drew this card".

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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Your example is invalid. The only command to go anywhere is in the instead clause which, as you say, is triggered by passing go. But nothing is telling you to go anywhere so it won't be triggered. Rules Fail. You don't go to jail instead of doing something - you go to jail regardless.
(FYI, the card actually says: Go directly to Jail – do not pass Go, do not collect $200)

Try this: If you draw an ace then roll a die, a 6 does not count. Instead, substitute the value 5." Do you use the value of 5 whenever you roll a die or only on a result of a 6?

The above is the same form as the monolith rule. The always-move-the-enemy crowd is arguing that, in the above example, the value of 5 would be used no matter what the die roll was. The only-move-the-enemy-when-the-monolith-rolls-a-destroyed-result crowd is arguing that you would only substitute the value 5 when a 6 is rolled.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/12/05 19:38:23


 
   
Made in us
Cog in the Machine




Epic Loot Centerville Ohio

Scott-S6 wrote:Try this: If you draw an ace then roll a die, a 6 does not count. Instead, substitute the value 5." Do you use the value of 5 whenever you roll a die or only on a result of a 6?

The above is the same form as the monolith rule. The always-move-the-enemy crowd is arguing that, in the above example, the value of 5 would be used no matter what the die roll was. The only-move-the-enemy-when-the-monolith-rolls-a-destroyed-result crowd is arguing that you would only substitute the value 5 when a 6 is rolled.


Destroyed is static not variable. Try a slight variation on yours: "If you draw an ace, do not roll a d6. Instead, substitute the value 5. " A new edition comes out that normally uses a d8 if you draw an ace. I would still use the value of 5 because that is the instruction for when I draw an ace. Not when I would roll a d6.

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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






grotblaster wrote:Destroyed is static not variable.

But destroyed is variable now, it does not follow automatically from being within 1" of the enemy.

That's the whole point.
   
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Cog in the Machine




Epic Loot Centerville Ohio

Destroyed is one static outcome of a variable roll. In the example above would you roll a d8 or use the value 5?

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Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

When told to replace 6 with 5, to replace anything else (including any roll that may give results) is breaking rules.

"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Calm Celestian




Florida, USA

To further throw a wrench into this discussion, I was thinking about what would happen if a Monolith were to DS and scatter onto a unit of jump infantry, jetbikes, or skimmers that they themselves were on top of impassable terrain as detailed on page 78 of the BRB. Now the Monolith has two separate ways of mishap, one from the enemy unit and one from the impassable terrain. This raises even further questions. If, however you believe the Monolith gets to this result, the Monolith isn't destroyed by being within an inch of the enemy unit, they would then have to move the minimum distance required to:

A) be more than 1" away from the Monolith

B) outside the impassable terrain if it is no longer able to be place as such in the impassable terrain

C) a combination of both and/or something else

For those models force to move out/through the impassable terrain, this would trigger dangerous terrain test, would it not?

Then you have to deal with the second mishap from the impassable terrain itself. If the Monolith suffers any of the mishap table results, then moving the enemy unit that was in the difficult terrain becomes moot, IMO, other than for possible dangerous terrain tests. There is no clear timing on which mishap to apply first, or both happen at the same time, but the results of one (the impassable terrain) clearly alters the results of the other (the enemy unit in said impassible terrain) either 1/3 or 100% of the time depending on your opinion in this thread. I suppose my main question is, "How is a Monolith that scatters onto a unit that itself is also in impassable terrain resolved?" How that question is answered can help determine the answers to the myriad of other questions that the specific scenario I described encounters. I would like to think that this scenario demonstrates how the Monolith is not entitled to ignore the mishap table for being within 1" of an enemy unit, as that has consequences detailed as above. Thoughts?

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Calm Celestian




Florida, USA

Did I break the thread? Anyone have some thoughts on my questions?

There is a fine line between genius and insanity and I colored it in with crayon. 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

This is why there is a problem with thinking a Monolith arriving within 1" of an enemy unit moves it out of the way.

The rules for mishaps are clear.
Scatter or arrive off the table, on top of a friendly model, in impassable terrain or on top or within 1" of an enemy model and you have suffered a deep strike mishap.

Landing in impassable terrain and within 1" of an enemy model makes no difference, you have still suffered a mishap.

In the case of a Monolith, it makes no difference if it scatters within 1" of an enemy model and in impassable terrain, it has suffered a mishap and if it rolls 'destroyed' then it is.

It is only in the one situation where is scatters within 1" of an enemy model, but not in impassable terrain or on top of a friendly model or off the table and rolls a 'destroyed' result on the mishap table that the enemy models are moved out of the way.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
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Cog in the Machine




Epic Loot Centerville Ohio

Why would that be a problem? In the situation described, follow steps 1-4 as described earlier.
When you get to 4 you move models out of the way.
At the end of step 4 you check to see if any of the conditions apply to roll on the chart.
Yep, still over impassable terrain.
Roll and apply result.

In fact, I would say this results in a cleaner and clearer way to resolve the situation above.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/08 15:01:14


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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

grotblaster wrote:
BTW- Even under your reading of the rules, if a destroyed result is rolled, you're still moving models as described.


Explain this please?

I said if it scatters into impassable terrain and also within 1" of an enemy model and rolls a destroyed result on the mishap table it is destroyed.

No enemy models are moved, the monolith is destroyed. Period.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in us
Cog in the Machine




Epic Loot Centerville Ohio

Was editing as you typed.
As above, models are moved when "enemies are within 1" when Monolith arrives". Checking for mishap occurs after the conclusion of normal deepstriking sequence which the monolith special rule interrupts.

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Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

grotblaster wrote: models are moved when "enemies are within 1" when Monolith arrives".
instead of being destroyed. Not instead of rolling to determine if destroyed.

Still.

I realize we disagree, but at least post the whole rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/08 15:06:58


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Grot - no, the whole point is that they are moved instead of the monolith being destroyed. Which is after you roll on the table.
   
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Cog in the Machine




Epic Loot Centerville Ohio

Kirsanth,
The whole rule includes far more than that as well. I didn't post the whole thing since it's been posted ad naseum previously. Not meaning to purposely leave anything out. Just figured everyone knows the whole rule by post 150 or so in this thread .

Oh, and you didn't break the thread evil lamp. I think we're just tired of rehashing.

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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

grotblaster wrote:
Oh, and you didn't break the thread evil lamp. I think we're just tired of rehashing.


This, at least, is something we can all agree on!

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
Made in us
Calm Celestian




Florida, USA

time wizard wrote:
grotblaster wrote:
Oh, and you didn't break the thread evil lamp. I think we're just tired of rehashing.


This, at least, is something we can all agree on!


Ok, cool. Just so I am clear, if a Monolith scatters within 1" of enemy models that are in impassable terrain, you only roll once, not one time for each mishap, and resolve from there. Thanks.

There is a fine line between genius and insanity and I colored it in with crayon. 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Long Island, New York, USA

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:Ok, cool. Just so I am clear, if a Monolith scatters within 1" of enemy models that are in impassable terrain, you only roll once, not one time for each mishap, and resolve from there. Thanks.


That would hold true for any deep striking unit that suffered multiple mishaps.

I have found again and again that in encounter actions, the day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire. The man who lies low and awaits developments usually comes off second best. - Erwin Rommel
"For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise." - Benjamin Franklin
 
   
 
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