Monolith Deepstrike 1" move... thingy

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**Lord PoPo**

So, I think I'm going to be facing a monolith for the first time, and I'm bit apprehensive, but that monologue belongs in the Armylist/tactica section so here's my question:

When a monolith deep strikes, it forces units that would be under it to move correct?

There is nothing that bars you from rotating say, vehicles, so that their armor faces are re-directed to deal with this new threat is there?

thanks in advance

**yakface**

The rules do not state how or if the models can be turned when they're pushed out of the way by a DSing monolith nor do they really specify which player is in charge of moving the models. Although, it kind of reads (to me at least) as though the player controlling the Monolith is the one technically doing the moving. The only real guidance is that they have to be moved the minimum distance needed, which to me says that you don't get to turn the vehicle unless it is necessary to move it out of the way, and only then by the minimum possible.

**Lord PoPo**

Wouldn't that almost necessarily mean that one would have to, at all times, rotate the vehicle in question so that it's side armor is facing the monolith?

**yakface**

Lord PoPo wrote:Wouldn't that almost necessarily mean that one would have to, at all times, rotate the vehicle in question so that it's side armor is facing the monolith?

Just for your info, here's what the rule says:

"...move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith."

I'm not getting the same interpretation as you. It seems as though you're looking at the 'movement' as though you're moving the model using the normal rules for vehicles, whereas I'm reading the rule more like, you have to actually MOVE THE MODEL out of the way the minimum distance needed.

By my interpretation I think you move the actual model the absolute least you have to, and that includes any kind of turning (because that's moving the model more than you have to). Under your interpretation since pivoting the model doesn't count as movement under the rules you're saying that you'd have to turn it as that would be the way to move it the absolute least.

I think you can function under either interpretation because the rules aren't explicit enough, so you may want to discuss it with your opponent ahead of time.

If you want to use the ruling we went with in the INAT, it is what I describe...move the vehicle the minimum distance needed to get it out of the way only turning it when absolutely necessary (because like impassable terrain is in the way, for example).

**nosferatu1001**

Remember that the monolith only moves models out of the way if it would be *destroyed* - which is only a 1, 2 on the mishap chart.

**Kommissar Kel**

Imagine this scenario: You have a rhino(or a tau Devilfish, or Orkk Trukk) In Player 1's(P1 from now on) movement phase he Moves up the transport and lets out some troops. Those troops all get out of the back and left side of the transport. There is a Small unit of 5 Models on the Right hand side of the transport about 4" away. The monolith Deepstrikes down landing on top of the front 60% of the transport(but no other models) the shortest distance for the transport to be moved to clear the 'lith is going to displace it to the opposite end of the 'Lith.

Assigning some(arbitrary) dimensions because I do not know the actual dimensions of the models(accuracy does not matter for this example) we will make the 'Lith 7"x7", and the transport 5"x3". Since we have 3" of the transport inside the monolith, we cannot move backwards, nor t either side due to models blocking are way; we must move through the 'Lith. If we do not turn the transport we must move it 13" to clear the 'Lith. if we do turn the transport we only have to move it 8" to clear the lith; about 10" when you consider the swing. This is still less than 13" though so would be the most accurate way to do it.

It all depends on the situation though, if the unit in my example above was not blocking the back of the transport, but only the sides, then it could have moved straigh back 4" to clear the Lith, and that would have bee short going straight back than back and turning which would have been 6".

**Userarm**

Nos i thought the Monolith would only take a deep strike mishap if it couldn't be deployed by landing in impassable terrain or off the board, as the unit rule Yakface quoted earlier means there will always be a 1" gap between the Monolith and any other model as you move models away to make room for it.

**Kommissar Kel**

Per the wording of the Rule it is only "not Destroyed" when arriving on top of enemy models. Mishaps can still occur, but a "terrible accident" result on the Mishap table equals landing where you scatter; Misplaced and Delayed are still valid results.

It's all part of OCS; earlier editions did not have the mishap table, if you landed on any enemy you were gone.

**TheGreatAvatar**

"is not destroyed" is a side effect of being Ponderous. This does not mean the Monolith must be destroyed in order to invoke its special rule. A Monolith, similar to a Drop Pod, has special deep striking rules. This biggest difference is the Monolith doesn't suffer a mishap if it would land on other models: simply move the models out of the way of the Monolith.

**Irdiumstern**

TheGreatAvatar wrote:"is not destroyed" is a side effect of being Ponderous. This does not mean the Monolith must be destroyed in order to invoke its special rule. A Monolith, similar to a Drop Pod, has special deep striking rules. This biggest difference is the Monolith doesn't suffer a mishap if it would land on other models: simply move the models out of the way of the Monolith.

That is not at all what Raw says. The monolith's rules say that it is not destroyed; they do not mention Mishaps at all.
DS Mishaps didn't exist when the necron codex came out; DSing onto enemy units or impassable terrain caused the deepstriker to be destroyed.

The Raw way to play this, imho, is as stated earlier to move other units out of the way only when a destroyed result comes up for the Mishap.

**Lord PoPo**

@Yakface: Yes, I am seeing movement as you described. Is that not the RAW way of visualizing movement?

**Lordhat**

According to the Monolith's rules, the enemy models only have to move out of the way if the Monolith would be destroyed, which is determined only after rolling on the mishap table, which is only done after determining that scatter would land the Monolith on top of or within 1" of the enemy unit in the first place.

So, the rules in order of occurance:

1. Roll for scatter (BGB)
2. If scatter is within 1" of enemy models roll on mishap(BGB)
3. If mishap result is 'destroyed' place monolith anyway, and move enemy unit (Necron Codex)
4. If mishap result is 'misplaced' or 'delayed' follow the BGB, as the Necron Codex doesn't tell you to do anything differently in this circumstance.

**Lord PoPo**

Lordhat wrote:According to the Monolith's rules, the enemy models only have to move out of the way if the Monolith would be destroyed, which is determined only after rolling on the mishap table, which is only done after determining that scatter would land the Monolith on top of or within 1" of the enemy unit in the first place.

I may be wrong... But don't the rules only say that "it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives. instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the monolith."?

This does seem to mean that, even if it rolls a destroyed on the mishap table, it is not destroyed. But it doesn't say anything about any other potential role, just that you "move any models that are in the way" which seems to mean that:

No matter what, if it lands on a unit, it will not be destroyed. Period.

But that will almost never matter, because one (still unclear as to who) has to move the offending units so that they are over 1" away to begin with.

**Kommissar Kel**

OK Popo: The monolith Deepstrikes, Scatters poorly, and lands on a unit. This is a Depstrike Mishap. You then have to roll on the Mishap table to find out the fate of the monolith. On a roll of 1 or 2 the monolith is supposed to be destroyed, it's special rules then Kick in and the models the Monolith would have been destroyed by are displaced.

Any other result on the Mishap table is valid and must be followed; Landing far away from where it was intended is not destruction is it? Nor is not coming in until the next turn(Although this could result in the destruction of the monolith if it keeps getting delayed and the game ends before it actually makes it onto the table.)

**Norbu the Destroyer**

Not to rehash the giant debate on this issue, but not everyone is in agreement over the "roll on the mishap table" to determine the monoltihs fate. It will vary from tourney to tourney. I dont think its written anywhere the correct order fo operations in that odd case. In my area everyone plays it as place monolith, move models away, anything within 1"....nope......turn continues. Right or wrong to your opinion, thats how some folks play it.

**Kommissar Kel**

Like I had said a few posts earlier; it is OCS(Old Codex Syndrome). Under the old rules(The rules this codex were writ) if you scattered onto enemy models your unit was lost all together, there was no Mishap table.

This led the Rule to be written as not destroyed.

But how the rule is written is easily applicable to the Mishap table; Scatter onto a unit, Roll on the mishap table(because this is part of the Deep Strike rules, and the monolith does not tell you to alter it in any way), If you receive a 1 or a 2 on the mishap table(wherein you would be destroyed) then the Monolith's rule takes over moving the unit out of the way. Any other roll would stand(because none of the other outcomes is immediate destruction of the Monolith).

It is pretty spelled out by following the current rules; if there was no chance for destruction via deepstrike in this edition the rule would do nothing(Like several Tau rules).

**nosferatu1001**

Norbu - except that isnt what the rules actually say. The rules are 100% clear on this, with no room for debate about them.

Some people just play how they are used to playing in 3rd / 4th - which is to be discouraged, otherwise I'll "forget" and start assaulting with my bezerkers from a rhino after moving 12" - because thats how it used to work.

The rules change, deal with it.

**Norbu the Destroyer**

I never played 3rd or 4th. I do not agree rules are 100% clear on this. All mishap says is if a unit CAN NOT be deployed because it lands in impassible....offtable......lands on another unit, roll mishap table. Only It never lands on another unit...the unit gets out of the way. Now Im not trying to convert you to playing this way. If you want to play it the way you interpret the rules be my guest. Im just saying not everyone plays it that way.

Deal with it!

**Lordhat**

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:I never played 3rd or 4th. I do not agree rules are 100% clear on this. All mishap says is if a unit CAN NOT be deployed because it lands in impassible....offtable......lands on another unit, roll mishap table. Only It never lands on another unit...the unit gets out of the way. Now Im not trying to convert you to playing this way. If you want to play it the way you interpret the rules be my guest. Im just saying not everyone plays it that way.

Deal with it!

BGB pg 95 wrote:
In the Movement phase, when they arrive these units may not move any further other than to disembark from a deepstriking transport vehicle....... In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal and obviously count as having moved in that turn's Movement phase.

This quote indicates that deepstriking is considered movement.

BGB pg. 11 wrote:....To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

So, since the Monolith's special rule modifies being destroyed (which is not the only result of 'moving' into the '1" radius' of a model anymore, but rather a result of moving into the 1" radius) and not the actual rule prohibiting you to move within an inch of enemy models you would still need to consult the mishap table. I still believe the actual sequence of rules requires the roll.

So back to the order of the events:

1. Roll for scatter (BGB)
2. If scatter is within 1" of enemy models roll on mishap(BGB) [No codex rules allowing the Monolith to move within an inch of enemy models, and the fact that the Monolith is not assaulting, means it can't be placed there... yet.]
3. If mishap result is 'destroyed' place monolith anyway, and move enemy unit (Necron Codex). [And here it is important to note that the Monolith still hasn't been given permission to move within an inch of the enemy model(s)]
4. If mishap result is 'misplaced' or 'delayed' follow the BGB, as the Necron Codex doesn't tell you to do anything differently in this circumstance.

I think the key fact here is that the Monolith does trigger the 'can't be placed' portion of the DS rules because it's special rule doesn't activate until the Monolith would be destroyed by being within 1" (or on top of) enemy units. It has no defense against the other two results, and no rules which let it move to within 1" of an enemy.

There is only one instance in which the Monolith has a 'legal right' to be placed. An instance which only occurs if you roll on the Mishap table. No other set of parameters allows it to remain in that spot. The rule doesn't say "In any circumstance in which a deepstriking Monolith would be placed within 1" of an enemy model, move the the enemy model the shortest distance to be one inch away." It says that if the Monolith would be destroyed in the above situation, then move the enemy models.

**Kommissar Kel**

But that is not what the monolith rules say.

The monolith rules say that if the monolith lands on a unit, it is not destroyed, instead the unit gets out of the way.

The only way the monolith would get destroyed in this edition is if you roll on the mishap table and come up with a 1 or a 2.

Now this is not 100% RAI; but is 100% RAW.

As intended you would be correct, because the only thing that happened when you scattered onto a unit when the rules were written was that your unit was destroyed. Unfortunately that rule was changed, and we have no update for how the Monoliths special Deep strike rule functions with the mishap table, so we must apply the rules as written.

**nosferatu1001**

Norbu - except you place the model, roll on the mishap and THEN determine if it would be "destroyed"

Which is only on a 1 or 2, now.

THe rules have changed since the monoliths rules were written, and this IS how the rules work now. You may disagree, but that is not from a "rules" position.

**Lordhat**

Sorry Kel. Next time you get a chance, sit down with the appropriate rules and follow my post step by step. You'll realize that I am quoting RAW. The Monolith's ability can't function without the mishap chart, because that's the only way to get a destroyed result from DS anymore.

**Kommissar Kel**

Lord hat: Read my posts again.

That is all.

**Lordhat**

Oops, my bad. Lost the thread there, as it were. We are in agreement.

**Kommissar Kel**

It's alright.. I do apologize though I should have began that with "please".

**TheGreatAvatar**

The Monolith's special rule states what to do if it lands on enemy models: move the enemy models out of the way. No mishap, simple move the models out of the way. The not being destroyed isn't relevant. The BGB (or the FAQ, I don't remember right of the top of my head) states if there are older Codex rules that no longer make sense using an updated BGB then ignore the rule. In this instance, the "is not destroyed" is a relic of an out dated rule and is no longer relevant.

What does the Necron codex model say to do if the Monolith lands on enemy models? Move the models out of the way. Period. No mishap ever occurs.

**don_mondo**

No, it states what to do instead of being destroyed.............. If it's not destroyed, there is no 'instead'.

**Melchiour**

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The Monolith's special rule states what to do if it lands on enemy models: move the enemy models out of the way. No mishap, simple move the models out of the way. The not being destroyed isn't relevant. The BGB (or the FAQ, I don't remember right of the top of my head) states if there are older Codex rules that no longer make sense using an updated BGB then ignore the rule. In this instance, the "is not destroyed" is a relic of an out dated rule and is no longer relevant.

What does the Necron codex model say to do if the Monolith lands on enemy models? Move the models out of the way. Period. No mishap ever occurs.

the problem with this logic is that being destroyed by deepstrike still exists. The rule is just different. You do not ignore the old codex rule if the rule is just different.

**TheGreatAvatar**

The rules states "...is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrived. Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary...." (Codex: Necron, page 21) So, the Monolith is not destroyed if it lands within 1" of the enemy since the models are moved out of the way of the Monolith.

One of the criteria for using the Mishap table on page 95 of the BGB is landing within 1" of the enemy. The Necron Codex trumps this by specifically addressing this exact situation: move the enemy models out of the way. The BGB FAQ (page 6) deals with the issue of "the Monolith is not destroyed" since it's not a relevant anymore (it is a relic of older rules that had different rules when landing on enemy models).

**Melchiour**

It says if an option (or a rule) clearly has no effect, it simply
does nothing. We think it’s simpler to just leave it until the
next edition of the Codex rather than change its effects
through an errata.

I would say that it is not clear as being destroyed on a Deepstrike still occurs just in a different fashion. Also if you are arguing that the FAQ should be followed in this case, then then you would have to follow it through all the way. You could not pick and choose parts of the rule to ignore. If the rule clearly has no effect it does nothing, so it would then mishap.

The FAQ doesn't say if it does nothing amend the rule to work.