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TGA - except you are applying the "instead" before the clause.

You dont find out that you "instead" move the models out of the way UNTIL you have determined if the Monolith is destroyed.

RAW: The monolith ONLY moves ENEMY models out of the way if it rolls a 1, 2 on the mishap table. No other occurence allows you (permissive ruleset, remember) to use the instead.

The rules states "...is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrived. Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary...." (Codex: Necron, page 21)
Is not destroyed is irrelevant. It could say "is not turned into a purple monkey", or "should not be thrown at your opponent's head" if there are enemy within 1" when it arrived.
It is a basic if/then statement. The "if" is "if there are enemy within 1" when it arrived" "then" you "move any models...".
Just because it wouldn't have been destroyed, turned into a monkey or thrown at your rules-lawyering opponent in the first place is not a precondition of the qualifying "if" condition.

If a normal deep striking model would land on or within 1" of an enemy model it will be:

A: Delayed until a later round
B: Deployed anywhere on the board by the opposing player
C: Destroyed through a mishap

If the Monolith rules state that it is not destroyed by enemy models it lands on or within 1" of then this only negates option option "C" as it says nothing about being delayed or placed elsewhere. The only way to read more into this is to pull out an older addition rule book and look at how deep strike used to be played...and that's not how the rules work.

As above.

Not gonna bother arguing any longer with posters who can ignore the word "destroyed" and pretend it doesnt matter.

Incredible ability to ignore entire functional phrases. Incredible.

I don't play necrons so I'm not twisting the phrase to gain an advantage.

The question is "what happens when a monolith scatters to within 1" of an enemy model."
Answers:
A. It is not destroyed. Fine we can all agree on that. So what happens instead?
B. If the codex states a rule different than the rulebook, codex>rulebook.
C. The codex states :"Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary....".

It does not state "If the Monolith would be destroyed normally, move any models..." It is a rule stating what to do when the Monolith ends up within 1" of an enemy model. Not what to do when the Monolith would be destroyed. Changes in the main rulebook to deepstrike deployment are irrelevent because the codex tells you how to resolve a situation where the monolith is within 1" of enemy forces.

Where in the Codex does it talk about mishaps in general or options other than "Destroyed" specifically? The Codex talks only about being destroyed and what happens instead.

Here is the process as simply as I can state it. I place my deep striking Monolith on the board and say "I'm DS'ing here." I roll scatter and the monolith scatters onto an enemy unit. Now I roll on the mishap table because the monolith isn't being destroyed yet. I roll a 6 and my opponent cheers loudly..."But wait" i say "the rules for the Monolith say I'm not destroyed but I move your models instead." Now instead lets say I rolled a 2. My Monolith would be delayed (I think) and everyone just goes on with the turn. The Monolith rule doesn't kick in as I was never going to be destroyed.

The rule in the Necron Codex very specifically talks about "destroyed" and not simply "mishap", and whether the old rules made this work differently or not it still works in the new rules without any help. To say that the rule extends to all mishaps requires you to reference old rules and debate how they have changed, which again is not how the game is played.

Sorry, grotblaster, but that isn't how the rules are currently interacting.

I agree that your argument is exactly how GW intended things to work when Codex: Necrons: The Stealth Reprint was made. And, if/when they update the Necron codex, that is how I assume they will update the rule (if they don't get rid of it entirely). But, that's not how things are currently working.

It's like Eldrich Storm for Eldar. When the codex came out, the blast produced didn't need to roll to hit and didn't scatter. Now, with 5th ed, it does scatter.

The entire phrase about moving models out of the way is explaining what to do to allow you to place the Monolith onto the board in a location it couldn't typically go. The "if, then" statement is the simple If it would be destroyed from deep striking within 1" of enemy models, then don't destroy it. The rest of the text is explaining how the you're suppose to place a model in the same space as another model without fairy dust.

Edit:
Additionally, if I was playing a game against Necrons, I'd have zero problem with a house rule allowing the movement of enemy models out of it's way for any mishap.

You have a rule that is written to interact with the core rules from an earlier edition.

You have 2 choices on how to resolve this rule:
A) Ignore it since the deepstrike rules no longer function the same way they did when it was written
-or-
B) Apply it as it is written since the new deepstrike rules do allow the trigger for this rule to take effect.

The "instead" is a qualifier to the rule, and directly ties into the sentence before it. In order to move models away from a deep striking monolith; that monolith must be destroyed by landing on them. The only way for the monolith to be destroyed by the models it lands on is if you roll on the mishap table.

If you are not rolling on the mishap table, would the monolith be destroyed?

"You have a rule that is written to interact with the core rules from an earlier edition. "
This is the crux of our different interpretations. I see the wording replacing, not interacting with, any core rules on dealing with moving within 1" of an enemy, so a change in the core rules doesn't impact how the situation is resolved.
Look at it this way, if the company handbook says call Tina in case of a fire. Your boss tells you that doesn't apply to us, instead at this branch we call bob in case of a fire. If company policy changes to say call Todd, does this effect your instructions at all?

grotblaster wrote:.
Look at it this way, if the company handbook says call Tina in case of a fire. Your boss tells you that doesn't apply to us, instead at this branch we call bob in case of a fire. If company policy changes to say call Todd, does this effect your instructions at all?

Your analogy fails because there has to be a fire first. We're saying that you can't have a fire at all until you roll on the mishap chart. THEN you can call Bob instead of Tina or Todd.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
According to the Monolith's rules, the enemy models only have to move out of the way if the Monolith would be destroyed, which is determined only after rolling on the mishap table, which is only done after determining that scatter would land the Monolith on top of or within 1" of the enemy unit in the first place.

Tina called she said that beings it wasn't an electrical fire but just a minor gas explosion that Todd is gonna put it where he likes ok ?

One of the reasons to check the mishap table is if a unit deepstrikes within 1" of an enemy. The Monolith has a very specific rule to deal with just a situation: move the models out of the way of the Monolith. The codex SPECIFICALLY states that's what happens if a Monolith lands within 1" of the enemy. The fact the Monolith is not destroyed becomes moot in 5th edition rules. grotblaster could not make it any plainer.


There is no check to see if the Monolith is destroyed. The rule doesn't state"If the Monolith is destroyed..."; it states the monolith isn't destroyed if it lands on enemy models, that is a HUGE difference. Y'all are adding more to the rule than this there.

Now, I will say as RAW the Monolith moves ENEMY models out of the way, however, landing on friendly models would result in consulting the mishap table. RAI, I would say the same thing applies to the friendly models as would the enemy models. (The codex doesn't SPECIFICALLY call out friendly models the way the Mishap rule does.)

there's only a 1/3 chance it could be destroyed so your logic is flawed

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:there's only a 1/3 chance it could be destroyed so your logic is flawed

How so? If the Monolith lands on an enemy model the codex says to move the model. Where's the 1/3 chance of being destroyed?

It says if it would be destroyed to move enemy models ... You're leaving rules out


Automatically Appended Next Post:
deepstrike mishap table, roll a D6 1-2 is destroyed ... 3-6 other goodies


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1/3 chance

TheGreatAvatar wrote: it states the monolith isn't destroyed if it lands on enemy models, that is a HUGE difference. Y'all are adding more to the rule than this there.

And again, there's no destroyed result to call exception to if you never roll on the mishap chart. Show us in print the part of the Monolith's rules that let you ignore the chart.

You won't find a rule saying "The Monolith isn't Delayed if there are Enemy units within 1" When it arrives. Instead...", nor will you find a rule stating "The Monolith isn't Misplaced if there are Enemy units within 1" When it arrives. Instead...". There is one and only one instance when you are permitted by the rules to move enemy models out of the Monolith's way, and, in this scenario, one and only one way to arrive at this instance.

Codex: Necrons 2nd printing, pg. 21 wrote: Deep Strike: A Necron attack is often started by Monoliths teleporting to the surface to act as bridges for the invading forces. A Monolith may therefor be deployed by Deep Strike if the special rules for the mission being played include it. Because of the sheer mass of the Monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1' when it arrives. Instead move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith.

Emphasis mine.

Note that the rule does not mention doing anything instead of being misplaced, or instead of being delayed. The Codex only mentions destroyed, so that is the only rule you get to modify. Much in the same way that Extra Armor only lets you modify Shaken results on the vehicle damage chart, the Monolith only lets you modify the destroyed result on the DS mishap chart. If ignoring one possible outcome on a chart let you avoid rolling on the entire thing, then no vehicle with EA could ever be destroyed.

Lordhat wrote:

Codex: Necrons 2nd printing, pg. 21 wrote: Deep Strike: A Necron attack is often started by Monoliths teleporting to the surface to act as bridges for the invading forces. A Monolith may therefor be deployed by Deep Strike if the special rules for the mission being played include it. Because of the sheer mass of the Monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1' when it arrives. Instead move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith.

If I may steal this quote for a second..

thank you!

it seems to me that it's saying two things

1) No matter what The Monolith is not destroyed if there are enemy units within 1" of 'lith when it arrives
and
2)Move any models that are in the way the minimum distance away to make space for the monolith

Lord PoPo wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Codex: Necrons 2nd printing, pg. 21 wrote: Deep Strike: A Necron attack is often started by Monoliths teleporting to the surface to act as bridges for the invading forces. A Monolith may therefor be deployed by Deep Strike if the special rules for the mission being played include it. Because of the sheer mass of the Monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1' when it arrives. Instead move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith.

If I may steal this quote for a second..

thank you!

it seems to me that it's saying two things

1) No matter what The Monolith is not destroyed if there are enemy units within 1" of 'lith when it arrives
and
2)Move any models that are in the way the minimum distance away to make space for the monolith

1) Deepstrike mishap chart, there are other things than destroyed via the rules
2) Yes if that is rolled on the mishap chart

The sign in the hallway says "In case of fire, do not panic. Instead, pull fire alarm and exit building." Does this mean:
A. If there is a fire and I am on the verge of panicking, I should pull the fire alarm and exit the building. If there is a fire and I am calm, I should go back to my desk and wait until I am on the verge of panicking before I do anything.
B. Do not panic. In addition, pull the fire alarm and exit the building.

This is the same structure as the Monolith rule. In case of fire=if within 1"; Do not panic=Do not Destroy; pull fire alarm=move models. The situation addressed is the landing within 1" of models. The prohibition in the first sentence is not a precondition for instructions that follow.

Analogies tend to fail in these situations.

If we panic at work should we pull the fire alarm? Not if we are in a state of panic because the IRS has come to do an audit. We only pull the fire alarm if there is a fire. In other words, we only move the models if the monolith would be destroyed because that is the only time that the rules give us permission.

Sliggoth

TheGreatAvatar wrote: One of the reasons to check the mishap table is if a unit deepstrikes within 1" of an enemy. The Monolith has a very specific rule to deal with just a situation: move the models out of the way of the Monolith. The codex SPECIFICALLY states that's what happens if a Monolith lands within 1" of the enemy. The fact the Monolith is not destroyed becomes moot in 5th edition rules. grotblaster could not make it any plainer.


There is no check to see if the Monolith is destroyed. The rule doesn't state"If the Monolith is destroyed..."; it states the monolith isn't destroyed if it lands on enemy models, that is a HUGE difference. Y'all are adding more to the rule than this there.

Now, I will say as RAW the Monolith moves ENEMY models out of the way, however, landing on friendly models would result in consulting the mishap table. RAI, I would say the same thing applies to the friendly models as would the enemy models. (The codex doesn't SPECIFICALLY call out friendly models the way the Mishap rule does.)

The Necron codex doesn't SPECIFICALLY address impassable terrain or scattering off the table either.

So you are saying if you scatter on any models (enemy or friendly) then you are going to just move them out of the way and disregard the mishap table?

Fine, then if your Monolith scatters onto impassable terrain or off the table, it is destroyed. This also follows "not using the mishap table".

If you are going to disregard 5th edition rules for some mishaps, you should disregard them for all mishaps.

But, if you want to follow the mishap table for scattering onto impassable terrain or off the table, then you must follow the mishap table for scattering onto friendly or enemy units as well.

The difference is, if my terminatiors scatter on top of enemy models and I roll a '1' or '2' on the mishap table, my unit is destroyed.

If the same occurs for your Monolith, the enemy models are moved out of the way. How much more of an advantage do you want?

"Because of the sheer mass of the Monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives. Instead move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith. "

The situation addressed is "if there are enemy within 1" it is not "if it is destroyed". You do not pull the fire alarm if you panic, because the instructions are what to do "in case of fire" not "in case of panic".

Time Wizard, you are right that it says nothing about impassable terrain or scattering off the table. In those cases you would consult the mishap table because the codex only addresses what to do "if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives" so you consult the rulebook to see what happens in other cases.

grotblaster wrote:"Because of the sheer mass of the Monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives. Instead move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the Monolith. "

... well it can only possibly be destroyed if you roll on the mishap table. I don't see anything about if the monolith would be placed elsewhere by an opponent, or put back into reserve ...

And, as above, the only thing you are told to do is to move models out of the way IF it would be destroyed.

How do you know it would be destroyed? You check the mishap table.

Or you could pretend that 5trh edition rules dont apply to you.

A monolith that deepstrikes on top of an enemy unit does not automatically push it 1" away anymore, that is what happened in 3rd ed etc.

Now the mono will ds, land on an enemy unit and roll for a deepstrike mishap as normal, now if the monolith then rolls a destroyed result, it will push the models out of the way. It will suffer delayed and misplaced results as normal.

TL;DR a monolith only pushes models back if it would be destroyed by landing on them, however you are only destroyed by landing on models you ds onto if you roll a destroyed result on the mishap table.

jdjamesdean@mail.com: You are correct that you see nothing saying what to do if the monolith would be placed elsewhere, put into reserve, smashed with a hammer or painted blue. What you see is instruction on what to do "if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives". Following these instructions takes care of the rest.

Once again, if I tell you "if you see a bird in the back yard, don't shoot it. Instead, refill the birdfeeder". If you don't have a gun or the intention to shoot it in the first place, should you not refill the birdfeeder?

grotblaster wrote: Time Wizard, you are right that it says nothing about impassable terrain or scattering off the table. In those cases you would consult the mishap table because the codex only addresses what to do "if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives" so you consult the rulebook to see what happens in other cases.

You are putting the cart before the horse here. Let me explain.

In 4th edition, you could not deep strike unless the mission or your special rules allowed it. The Monolith special rule said it was only allowed to deep strike if the special rules for the mission allowed it. So you first have to follow the main rulebook and then the special rule in the codex.

Now if it was allowed and you did deep strike your Monolith, you did so according to the deep strike rules in the main rulebook. Under those rules, if you scattered onto impassable terrain or off the boiard or within 1" of an enemy unit, you were destroyed. The Monolith special rule said if there were enemy units within 1", it was not destroyed, you moved the enemy models out of the way. So again, you first followed the rules in the main rulebook and then the special rule in the codex.

Now the main rules have been updated. First you are now allowed to deep strike in all standard missions. And now, if you scatter off the table or onto impassable terrain or within 1" of an enemy unit, you are not immediately destroyed, you have instead suffered a mishap. You then roll according to the rules for the mishap table.

If you roll a certain number on the mishap table, and have scattered within 1" of an enemy unit, you are destroyed. But you can now follow the special rules in the Necron codex that states if the Monolith scatters within 1" of an enemy unit, it is not destroyed, the enemy unit is moved instead.

That is the order you must use. First you follow the main rules, then you apply any codex specific rules. That is putting the horse before the cart.

time wizard wrote:

grotblaster wrote: Time Wizard, you are right that it says nothing about impassable terrain or scattering off the table. In those cases you would consult the mishap table because the codex only addresses what to do "if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives" so you consult the rulebook to see what happens in other cases.

You are putting the cart before the horse here. Let me explain.

In 4th edition, you could not deep strike unless the mission or your special rules allowed it. The Monolith special rule said it was only allowed to deep strike if the special rules for the mission allowed it. So you first have to follow the main rulebook and then the special rule in the codex.
Now if it was allowed and you did deep strike your Monolith, you did so according to the deep strike rules in the main rulebook. Under those rules, if you scattered onto impassable terrain or off the boiard or within 1" of an enemy unit, you were destroyed. The Monolith special rule said if there were enemy units within 1", it was not destroyed, you moved the enemy models out of the way. So again, you first followed the rules in the main rulebook and then the special rule in the codex.
Now the main rules have been updated. First you are now allowed to deep strike in all standard missions. And now, if you scatter off the table or onto impassable terrain or within 1" of an enemy unit, you are not immediately destroyed, you have instead suffered a mishap. You then roll according to the rules for the mishap table.

If you roll a certain number on the mishap table, and have scattered within 1" of an enemy unit, you are destroyed. But you can now follow the special rules in the Necron codex that states if the Monolith scatters within 1" of an enemy unit, it is not destroyed, the enemy unit is moved instead.

That is the order you must use. First you follow the main rules, then you apply any codex specific rules. That is putting the horse before the cart.

I agree with most of what you say here. Following the Monolith rules in the codex:
1st I check to see if deepstriking is allowed in the mission. Ok rulebook now says it is always allowed.
2nd I follow these rules for deepstriking by placing where I want to land and rolling the scatter die and 2d6. (unless there is a special rule like descent of angels, icon, etc. that changes this)
3rd I move the monolith along the path dictated by the scatter die a number of inches equal to the total of the 2d6 and place the model. (unless there is a special rule changing this)
4th I check to see if the model is off the table, onto impassable terrain or within 1" of an enemy model. (unless there is a special rule changing this like drop pods, or the monolith)
5th Since there is no special rule for what to do if the Monolith lands off the table or in impassable terrain I roll on the mishap chart if that happens. If the Monolith lands within 1" of an enemy model there is a special rule, so I follow that instead. Please note that it does not say if the Monolith is within "1" of an enemy model and would be destroyed" only "if it is within 1" of an enemy model it is not destroyed". This is why we never reach the mishap table.

But you do reach the mishap table, as the ponderous rule only comes into effect when you would be destroyed by landing on the enemy units.

That can only happen by rolling destroyed on the mishap table.

The monos rule is not a blanket alowance to skip the mishap steps, if you landed within 1" an enemy model you have mishapped.

grotblaster wrote:5th Since there is no special rule for what to do if the Monolith lands off the table or in impassable terrain I roll on the mishap chart if that happens. If the Monolith lands within 1" of an enemy model there is a special rule, so I follow that instead. Please note that it does not say if the Monolith is within "1" of an enemy model and would be destroyed" only "if it is within 1" of an enemy model it is not destroyed". This is why we never reach the mishap table.

Everything was good up until this point.
Again, you don't invoke the codex special rule before the main rule.

BRB page 95 top right spells out deep strike mishaps. These rules apply to every unit in every codex that deep strikes.
They specify what happens to each and every unit that mishaps.
Every unit in every codex that scatters within 1" of an enemy unit and rolls a '1' or '2' on the mishap table is destroyed.
Except one particluar unit (that I know of) and that unit is the Necron Monolith which has a special rule that says it is not destroyed if it arrives within 1" of an enemy. You instead move the enemy units the minimum distance necessary to make room for the Monolith.
With the exception of the other two types of results on the mishap table, that is the only condition that would prevent destruction of the Monolith, unlike any other deep striking unit.

Once again, you do not deep strike the monolith, follow a special rule in the codex, and if that doesn't fit follow the rules in the main rulebook.

You follow the rules in the main rulebook (in this case rules for deep strike mishaps) and after the effect has been applied (ie. being destroyed) you can then use a special rule (ie. monolith deep strike) that a unit has in it's codex.