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Exactly.





And yet GW is as blind as an astropath.

H.B.M.C. wrote: Of course, GW's pathological need to be a hobby unto themselves and to never ever mix with the 'masses' of the miniature world is pants-on-head slowed (to quote Yhatzee) because even the biggest companies that would like to be above the rest or even consider themselves above the rest still show up to trade shows.

are you going to start talking about branston pickles now? I remember the days when GW used to run events and have a big presence at gencon back in the 90's. I seriously doubt the sales they had there and goodwill they garnered were somehow detrimental to their business model.

HBMC- I couldnt have oput that better, you hit the nail on the head mate! Unfortunately I afraid that for all your and others words of wisdom GW simply don't give a f..k as they know better (at least till their sales will really srat crumbling.. which is bound to happen I think).

warboss wrote:are you going to start talking about branston pickles now?

I know the guy lives here in Oz, but Branston Pickle must be an English thing 'cause I have no idea what it is. Some... spead... thing... stuff. Yeah.

warboss wrote:I remember the days when GW used to run events and have a big presence at gencon back in the 90's. I seriously doubt the sales they had there and goodwill they garnered were somehow detrimental to their business model.

Remember the phrase 'There's no such thing as bad publicity'. Well, it's mostly true, except when you do something like... oh I dunno... sue every Blood Bowl site on the web? To put it another way, I can't imagine it would take much to promote GW better than they are, but I just can't fathom why they don't do it themselves.

Is is arrogance (ie. what I mentioned about their own self-image as the 'Hobby' rather than being part of the hobby).
Is it incompetence? I can't imagine a company with such a niche market would survive for as long as it has by dumb luck. Someone there has to have a clue.
Is it apathy? Maybe they really don't care about us and other companies as long as they make enough profit each yeah to keep the machine grinding?

Or is it all three combined?

Whether TV, radio, internet, print media, conventions or their own Games Days: GW's higher management has the same easy going relationship to the public as North Korean's politicians.
If they were on vacation for half a year, sales would rise dramaticly

BTW: I watched a Warmachine demo game: No terrain, no scenario. And if you shoot the caster, the game is over. Not my cup of tea, whatever the price. But that's off topic of course.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I hope you mean that in a good way...

Umm...

Maybe next time just say "+1".

Because "+1" isn't nearly as fun, obviously.

I mean, this topic has made me look at my miniatures purchase from the past few months, and short of a Forgeworld Biker Boss that I bought from a friend more than 4 months ago, I can't think of a single new model that I've bought by Games Workshop or its subsidiaries that goes past the bits that I bought for my truescale conversions, and that was even longer ago. And yet I can't wait for my Raging Heroes Manticore to arrive, and I've recently been scooping up Anima Tactics models (and the rulebook... which is absolutely beautiful, by the way) like the new crack.

Mind you, I've only been into wargaming for 2-and-a-half years now, but looking back, not only has my purchasing changed dramatically (from buying almost entirely GW to buying more and more into other companies, such as Cipher, Reaper, and Gamezone). And one of the biggest differences I see in this short period is that there's just nothing worth buying lately, and what is worth buying is released at such a choked rate that it's hard to really get interested in anything. Dark Eldar are a sight for sore eyes, but I'm not looking to make a large bulk purchase anymore. Hell, I've been even considering retiring my Grey Knights once the new book comes out depending on the rules just because I don't want to have to do massive bulk purchases that I know I'd likely have to make just to make the army playable again (and the guaranteed trivialization of Inquisitors doesn't help my interest either).

Two-and-a-half years ago, this wasn't the case. When I got into the hobby, not only did 5th ed just release, but Orkz and Daemons were fresh, and Space Marines had just come out of the oven. And not too far apart from one another either. Hell, we actually knew what was coming too and this was only 2 years ago.

I still remember the days where I'd browse GW's site just comparing prices and boxes considering starting a new army or eagerly expanding an old one. But lately... I just don't do that. They have no reason for me to go to their website. Hardly any real news. Hell, I just checked the site for old time's sake (and to remember what armies were coming out two years ago ), and short of the new Skaven wave (which I assume would be fantastic if I were a Skaven player, which I'm not, so that does nothing for me) is some releasing and repackaging of old kits. That's embarassing.

I mean, in short, I guess I'm just saying that GW seem to like to make it harder and harder for me to be interested in them.

Fafnir wrote:I mean, this topic has made me look at my miniatures purchase from the past few months, and short of a Forgeworld Biker Boss that I bought from a friend more than 4 months ago, I can't think of a single new model that I've bought by Games Workshop or its subsidiaries that goes past the bits that I bought for my truescale conversions, and that was even longer ago. And yet I can't wait for my Raging Heroes Manticore to arrive, and I've recently been scooping up Anima Tactics models (and the rulebook... which is absolutely beautiful, by the way) like the new crack.

That's interesting because I'm in a similar position. I'm trying to think of all the GW stuff I bought last year. There was a Shine of the Aquila... was Planetstrike last year? No, that was 2009, along with Space Hulk. So a Shrine of the Aquila, two Trygons (still unbuilt), and I did get some FW items as a Birthday Gift, plus two Vendetta kits to convert two of the Valks I bought back at the start of '09. Did buy some Mordheim Amazons and Necromunda Ratskins. That's it...

But in the past year I now have a near 100% 'Counts As' Adeptus Mechanicus army using mostly Micro-Art Studios minis (with a few Scibor releases thrown in for fun). I've also started buying non-GW terrain (Pegasus Gothic Buildings - they're AWESOME), and put a lot of effort into sourcing non-GW minis and loads of non-GW terrain products like D&D Tiles, Paizo Flipmats and Gale Force 9 maps. Hell, even got some OOP Mongoose Star Ship Trooper maps the other day. I'm buying a lot of non GW stuff... and aside from some Bloodcrushers and some Gargoyles there's really nothing GW makes that I want right now.

Now, granted, I've been playing for a lot longer than you and have armies that range from 8,000 points to 30,000 points, so I don't 'need' as much stuff. But 'need' isn't the same as 'want' and I don't really 'want' anything from them.

Fafnir wrote:I mean, in short, I guess I'm just saying that GW seem to like to make it harder and harder for me to be interested in them.

Careful now, or you'll find yourself being sigged!!!

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Careful now, or you'll find yourself being sigged!!!

Is that the flutter of butterflies in my stomach? I sure hope it is, because if it's not, then it might just be stomach cancer.

Oh, and just to add some substance to this post, one thing I realized when checking the GW website with the new Skaven release is that no one even talked about it. I mean, that just shows to me just how harmful their (nonexistant) marketing strategy is to their own business. Assuming I was a Skaven player, how would I even know that there was a new release? Sure, you might get some word from the guys at the local FLGS, but if you're like me and at a University 200 kilometers from your local FLGS for 8 months of the year, and the only FLGS that you frequent when you're at school doesn't exactly have enough room to accomodate all of GW's stock, as willing as I may be to buy, how the hell will I even know to buy it?

H.B.M.C. wrote:
This goes back to what I said about GW's self perception as the hobby and not as a company that is part of a wider hobby (that being 'Table Top Miniature Wargames'). As long as they view themselves as an entity unto themselves - something special and unique that no one out there even comes close to matching - this will never change and they will never attend events. Let's break down GW and events into two categories:

1. GW's Own Events.
2. Events everyone but GW goes to.

Starting with the later, things like Gen-Con and even growing conventions like PAX, GW has no presence because in their minds having a booth next to Wyrd Miniatures or Steve Jackson Games makes them feel 'less than' (and that's not a dig at Wyrd or Steve Jackson - I'm not saying they are 'less than'). They want to appear to be special, different, above and unique compared to everyone else, so attending a non-GW event would be akin to a concession that they are just 'another' miniatures company. Of course, GW's pathological need to be a hobby unto themselves and to never ever mix with the 'masses' of the miniature world is pants-on-head slowed (to quote Yhatzee) because even the biggest companies that would like to be above the rest or even consider themselves above the rest still show up to trade shows. Take E3. I'm sure Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft really hate the fact that they have to share hall-space with one another and would love to be the only console and game maker on the market, but they accept the realities of the situation and promote the ever-loving gak out of their products to maintain market dominance. GW does nothing of the sort, pretends that other companies don't exist, won't associate with other companies, and takes their audience for granted - no promotion outside of their useless monthly magazine and their fumbling website 'articles'.

And now GW's own events. I could forgive a lot of the above if GW made up for their own short-sightedness by using their own annual trade shows (Games Days!) as 'their' way of promoting the 'Games Workshop Hobby'. Unfortunately, they don't. Again, they take their audience for granted, they don't preview anything new, they do nothing to generate buzz about upcoming releases because they are petrified of people having even the slightest clue of what's about to be released. So we'll get nice cabinets full of wonderfully 'Evy Metal painted miniatures... all of which you can buy from the little kiosk to your left if you line up for 3 hours. The weirdest part though is that at these GW events we see a full-blown case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. What do I mean by that? Black Library and Forge World, that's what! These two groups do preview upcoming releases, they do show works in progress, they bring the designers and the writers and answer questions - they use word-of-mouth and the internet generate buzz. Think of all the threads we get after GW run events - the mainstream GW ones are bare, with tiny snippets of rumours, and the Forge World ones are multi-page multi-picture extravaganzas filled with new products, upcoming products and actual real news.

Does no one at GW see the problem there? The disconnect? If your own sub-companies are consistently doing what you, as the parent company, are failing to do at every step... then something has to change!!!

Quoted For Truth
+1 (or should I threaten to feth you also?)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

gorgon wrote:Internet marketing is one. Actually attending events is another. Heck, I'd be trying borderline guerrilla marketing stuff if it was me. Why not a staged and safe -- but seemingly random and spontaneous -- "battle" between guys in SM and CSM armor at the San Diego Comic-Con? You think that'd go viral? LOL.

This goes back to what I said about GW's self perception as the hobby and not as a company that is part of a wider hobby (that being 'Table Top Miniature Wargames'). As long as they view themselves as an entity unto themselves - something special and unique that no one out there even comes close to matching - this will never change and they will never attend events. Let's break down GW and events into two categories:

1. GW's Own Events.
2. Events everyone but GW goes to.

Starting with the later, things like Gen-Con and even growing conventions like PAX, GW has no presence because in their minds having a booth next to Wyrd Miniatures or Steve Jackson Games makes them feel 'less than' (and that's not a dig at Wyrd or Steve Jackson - I'm not saying they are 'less than'). They want to appear to be special, different, above and unique compared to everyone else, so attending a non-GW event would be akin to a concession that they are just 'another' miniatures company. Of course, GW's pathological need to be a hobby unto themselves and to never ever mix with the 'masses' of the miniature world is pants-on-head slowed (to quote Yhatzee) because even the biggest companies that would like to be above the rest or even consider themselves above the rest still show up to trade shows. Take E3. I'm sure Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft really hate the fact that they have to share hall-space with one another and would love to be the only console and game maker on the market, but they accept the realities of the situation and promote the ever-loving gak out of their products to maintain market dominance. GW does nothing of the sort, pretends that other companies don't exist, won't associate with other companies, and takes their audience for granted - no promotion outside of their useless monthly magazine and their fumbling website 'articles'.

And now GW's own events. I could forgive a lot of the above if GW made up for their own short-sightedness by using their own annual trade shows (Games Days!) as 'their' way of promoting the 'Games Workshop Hobby'. Unfortunately, they don't. Again, they take their audience for granted, they don't preview anything new, they do nothing to generate buzz about upcoming releases because they are petrified of people having even the slightest clue of what's about to be released. So we'll get nice cabinets full of wonderfully 'Evy Metal painted miniatures... all of which you can buy from the little kiosk to your left if you line up for 3 hours. The weirdest part though is that at these GW events we see a full-blown case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. What do I mean by that? Black Library and Forge World, that's what! These two groups do preview upcoming releases, they do show works in progress, they bring the designers and the writers and answer questions - they use word-of-mouth and the internet generate buzz. Think of all the threads we get after GW run events - the mainstream GW ones are bare, with tiny snippets of rumours, and the Forge World ones are multi-page multi-picture extravaganzas filled with new products, upcoming products and actual real news.

Does no one at GW see the problem there? The disconnect? If your own sub-companies are consistently doing what you, as the parent company, are failing to do at every step... then something has to change!!!

Plus one.

I think it all stems from the core fact that GW does not want to adapt to different situations- they expect their customers to adapt to GW. Hence continual price rises, making GW in emerging markets follow the same principles as GW UK with regards to advertising (you think GW advertising in the US is bad, try Japan) and their weird approach to conventions.

Kroothawk wrote:BTW: I watched a Warmachine demo game: No terrain, no scenario. And if you shoot the caster, the game is over. Not my cup of tea, whatever the price. But that's off topic of course.

I've only just started playing, Kroothawk, but I know you're supposed to have terrain, you can have scenarios, and the caster can transfer a limited amount of damage onto one of his warbeasts instead of taking it himself.

A lot of times it seems it does come down to a "caster kill", but there can be objectives, too.

As to the comment about less models meaning less complexity- from my few games so far, that just isn't true. I had to wrack my brain to make it through a 15 point game today, with only 3 models... there's just so much that each one can do for the others, the order to do things in matters, and there's just a lot of stuff going on.

/off-topic

Thus why I am moving off GW products and into the realm of other miniature games... I just can't stomach it anymore.

I have two young kids, and with the economy and job market how it is, I cannot justify spending 60 dollars on a single plastic tank for a game of toy soldiers. It is ridiculous. Yet, the prices continue to rise (even though GW is already turning a profit, surely a sign of gross overcharging for a niche market).

I cannot justify spending 60 dollars on a single plastic tank for a game of toy soldiers

You're not alone and a lot of fans, even long-term devotees with huge collections are finding it more difficult to deal with some of the prices. They keep releasing great new kits, but some of the pricing is egregious even to those of us who have happily supported GW for years.

keezus wrote:
The cards are necessary for damage and other book-keeping tasks. New unit stats are spoiled in the No Quarter magazine and usually math-hammered on the internet. If you have a local retailer, looking at the card is usually no harder than asking if you can open the unsealed model box (and or snap-tite blister).

The books, while optional, contain hobby tips, campaign suggestions, fluff (army organization, alt paint schemes etc). They're not needed, but certainly can enrich the hobby for some.

This is not actually entirely true. In mk1 in addition to the main rule book you needed:

Escalation for the following rules: Jack Marshall, Mercenary Warcasters and Warjacks, Replacing Model rules, Unit Attachments, and Weapon Crews.

Apotheosis for the following rules: Epic Warcasters, Jack Bonds, Elite Cadres, Unique Warjacks, Double-Hand Throw, Trample and believe it or not 750 point game sizes (which did not officially exist as a battle size until then).

Superiority for the following rules: Cavalry, Dragoons, expanded attachment rules, and Mercenary contracts. You could also get a rehash of the Epic Warcaster, Jack Bond, and Elite Cadre rules.

Legends for the following rules: Affinities, Allies, Cohorts, Epic Solos, Imprints, Light Cavalry, Tactics, Warcaster Attachments, and altered Mercenary Contracts.

Now you may not have needed the book to learn all these rules but obviously that is because you had somebody teach them to you. Nonetheless, somebody you play with absolutely had to purchase or read these books to be able to play a complete game of Mk1 Warmachine. No cavalry card had the complete cavalry rules written on them anymore than any epic caster had the epic caster rules or unit attachment had the attachment rules on them. So saying the expansion books were optional or weren't necessary to get the rules to play the game is incorrect.

You can certainly make an argument for it currently with mk2 but that will change as soon as Wrath comes out and somebody you know will have to read it to know how those battle engines work.

I have a friend similar to you who has never purchased a Warmachine book and does just fine having us teach him new rules. But then I also have a friend who doesn't own a 40k book and he plays a nasty chaos space marine list or three.

Man, I just had to go through 6 pages anxiously awaiting Kan to chime in. What gives?

LOL! Ok, that made me laugh.

It's ok though - we've had Dr_Mystery... sorry, Mr_Mystery to keep us well stocked on Pro-GW spin.

I wish GW was like Battlefront (makers of Flames of War). They know that if you make a decent product, people will buy it regardless. They have a balanced ruleset, excellent miniatures, and affordable prices (at least when compared to GW, and they are on the steep side of the 15mm scale). They know that it isn't their rules tweaks that sell the miniatures, so they don't mess around with little bumps in the rules that make the latest models the most powerful in the game. In fact, they don't even require you to play with their miniatures at sanctioned events, as long as the minis are in-scale. Shoot, they don't even invalidate their rules supplements (army lists and so forth) as long as you have the most current errata. I can use my out-of-print D-Minus-1 book to create a list if I want to, even though those lists are now in the D-Day compilation. Could you use a 3rd edition Codex from GW in a sanctioned event? Heck no!

I think GW is suffering from apathy, more than any other flaw, HBMC. They just don't give a crap about the consumer as long as they are turning a profit. Just like the Imperium in their fictional universe, they are satisfied to take and take from the masses until they run it right into the ground, which is eventually what is going to happen.

If their target market is young folks, how can these young folks convince their parents to buy them these 100+ dollar starter sets, when it isn't even half of what you need to really get into the game? You still have to buy the codex, another 600 points or so (for 40k) at the LEAST, just to have a playable force. And 500 points of that has to be vehicles (at 30 dollars for 50 points) to be competitive in the current mech trend (thinking IG and BA razorspam lists here).

Bleeding us dry, they are.

BrassScorpion wrote:

I cannot justify spending 60 dollars on a single plastic tank for a game of toy soldiers

You're not alone and a lot of fans, even long-term devotees with huge collections are finding it more difficult to deal with some of the prices. They keep releasing great new kits, but some of the pricing is egregious even to those of us who have happily supported GW for years.

agreed. my new years resolution for the second year running is to try and "recycle" the majority of my gaming budget via trades and selling existing stuff to fund new purchases. while that sucks a bit for my FLGS (which is a great place) since my new purchases won't be as high, i can at least stomach trading $60 of current retail value figs for a $60 tank because i only paid $35 for those figs in the first place back in the day. its twisted logic but it still gets me a new unit every once in a while while slowly decreasing Mt. Gaming Pile'o'crap in the basement.

Can I just say that it's nice to see this thread is free from the usual anti-GW Internet Hyperbole and, for once, seems to be a logical discussion of actual business flaws.

Well done Dakka. I can actually say "Stay classy" without meaning it ironically.

*anti-GW Internet Hyperbole*

I completely agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread; GW has successfully priced me out of their games, as a University Student simply does not have the kind of budget to blow on their products.
Instead, I find myself returning to Airfix kits- the original hook that led me to GW. Whilst their products are not quite the same quality, you can purchase a Tiger I tank and some infantry for less than £10. In comparison, a standard GW transport is double that. On its own. FW makes incredible models, but the price tag is so hefty that its a pipedream. It just isn't viable for me anymore.

The gaming experience has also changed beyond recognition. When I started, my FLGS contained a diverse group of players, ranging from younger beginners (as I was, bright eyed and awestruck) to grizzled Veterans. Games would be varied, with different scenarios and armies battling it out. WD had a series of scenarios printed in it, one involving flyers making ground attack runs, and another introduced the Objective markers and Generator.
Now- the Veterans have moved on. There is no hook for them. Nothing to keep them speculating about the upcoming release, one-man stores whose sole focus HAS to be sales, and with the FLGS gradually becoming a creche.

There are only three things that have me linked to GW nowadays. This exceptionable community. The few remaining figs I have yet to paint. And the upcoming Bequin trilogy by Abnett.
Sad, but true.

CadianXV wrote:*anti-GW Internet Hyperbole*
I completely agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread; GW has successfully priced me out of their games, as a University Student simply does not have the kind of budget to blow on their products.

See, you just gotta get hooked up with a job at an oil company over the summer

...but then again, even with the extra money I pull in, I still can't justify GW's prices. I mean, I know I can afford it, but at the current prices, I feel stupid for buying it.

The sense of elation in me when I found out that anima tactics minis averaged at $10 per blister cannot be measured.

I don't think it's apathy, so much as bloody-mindedness and willful blinkeredness. It seems to me that upper management at GW have a very rigid philosophy about how to run and grow the company, and have been utterly unwilling to adapt that to a changing world over the past 15 years or so.

There is no real reason for the retail stores to be losing money for them, other than poor management. If independent gaming stores can offer all that GW can (staff who know the hobby inside out, a full range of product, terrain and tables for casual play, painting advice), and more (other, related games and products -- even just other stuff that you can use for your GW games, like the Army Painter range), at lower prices, *and still turn a profit*, then GW are doing it horribly wrong!

If their own stores are doing badly -- drop them, and support independent retailers more, instead. (I know they already offer good support for independent retailers, but they could do more.)

If gamers want competitive, fair, balanced tournaments -- support that, with a competitive, fair, balanced ruleset. (I've referenced sirlin.net before for some state-of-the-art insight into competitive game design, which GW tend to ignore even the basics of).

If gamers who love your fluff, have big armies, still play, still read 40K books, still buy related games like the FFG licensed ones and the computer games... aren't buying your minis any more... there are several solutions, that can work in concert. Talk to your customers. Not on forums, probably, but do market research of established customers. Find out what's up. Then, figure out what they want -- have they got enough minis already, really? Sell them the other stuff -- more licensed products (IN YOUR SHOPS), amazing hobby events that you can sell tickets for (BUT IT HAS TO BE THE EVENTS PEOPLE WANT, BASED ON YOUR ACTUAL MARKET RESEARCH RATHER THAN CRAZY GUESSES), more BL novels. Tempt them with amazing new sculpts *that are also viable in the game*. (I know GW think of themselves as a minis company first and foremost, and the rules are mostly there for fun, but that is simply wrong -- a competitive, balanced, fair game is more fun for casual gamers who mostly love fluff *as well as* being the only acceptable game for hardcore competitive players.) Have they got too many minis still on the sprue, so what they really need is a faster way to paint them? Buy up Army Painter or launch a *better*, *at least as cheap*, or *cheaper*, *at least as good*, alternative (it's probably easier to buy them up). Do they hate the price rises, most of all? Offer a loyalty card, or a fan club that gives you money off, or bulk-buy discounts (the discounts don't have to be any more competitive than the cheapest discount webshop -- but they should be as competitive, for sure). Do they hate the lack of info about upcoming releases? Try behaving like a company that wants to make a profit, then, rather than thinking that your GWHQ staff are actually members of a Secret Club; it can actually be fine to deliberately be secretive about *some* stuff, *as part of* a proper marketing strategy, but not just for the sake of it! If you want to be secretive, run a teaser campaign, or hire an ARG designer to do an I Love Bees style competition/game that gives the winners something special and gets you a load of publicity... gah.

Whew.

Anyway. They need to engage with their fans. Successful marketing isn't about just maximising your till returns on a particular day; that's the job of sales, and in fact, it's not even that effective an approach to sales (customers will come back again and again if you give them good advice, even if that means you don't make a sale that day, rather than just trying to sell them the latest thing... again, some GW employees will do that, but by no means all). Successful marketing means you harness the power of community; you involve your customers as more than just customers, as fans. Most of us posting here *are* GW fans. We'd love to see the company more successful, and we' d love to see ourselves as a part of a GW community along with the company; but because of GW's overall dysfunctionalness and schizophrenia, we just see them as kinda crazy some of the time, and profiteering rip-off merchants the rest.

Frazzled wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:I do get why they don't sell Third Party stuff, even when it's licensed, through the stores. The minis are their bread and butter.

But surely they could offer a weborder service in store?

Why would I care? Impulse purchases are the entire reason for brick and mortar. If I have to think about it and use the POWA OF THE INTRANETZ then there's no point to the retail stores-they just burn cash.

Yes, that is exactly the point.

I went into my local GW for some dice and bases, which they didn't have, and for some snap-fit Termagants, also out of stock.

Staff suggestion -- order them through the Citizen's Terminal. My reply, I'll do it when I get home. (Only I'll order from someone cheaper than GW.)

Just to throw something out here..

Origins Game Fair in Columbus Ohio is the baby of GAMA. (Game Manufacturers Association.) (http://www.gama.org/)

One of THE biggest gaming conventions across all game types in the USA. Board, Card, Collectible, RPG, historical AND scifi/fantasy miniatures.

I run 40k events there, and confess to bias.

Last year, our group was told that Games Workshop for the first time in many years.. paid their dues to GAMA and would have a presence at Origins 2011. Evidently this NON GW event will have some level of "official" GW support.. maybe even a booth or a seminar.

We can but hope.

-Porkuslime

BrassScorpion wrote:

I cannot justify spending 60 dollars on a single plastic tank for a game of toy soldiers

You're not alone and a lot of fans, even long-term devotees with huge collections are finding it more difficult to deal with some of the prices. They keep releasing great new kits, but some of the pricing is egregious even to those of us who have happily supported GW for years.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I used to happily buy 4 different kits for one unit conversion, now, they're lucky if I buy one kit for it's normal intended use.
Doesn't stop me buying off bitz sites and ebay, so they're still getting some money from me.

Yes, once again I agree.

My Tau army -- 100% official kits (converted) This is my oldest army.
My SMs -- Official infantry with converted heads, 100% non-GW vehicles.
My IG -- 95% non-GW models.
My Tyranids -- 75% GW (lots of conversions and substitutions for Spods, Tervigon, Tyrannofex, etc.

If I'm going to spend £60 on a tank (and I have!) I'll buy a non-GW kit.

terrainguy wrote:This is not actually entirely true. In mk1 in addition to the main rule book you needed...

You got me there! I do admit that I forgot that I absorbed some rules due to exposure. In fairness, PP did release three itterations of Prime, each of which collected the core rules (and errata!!!) up to that point. For a new player, buying the new Prime would usually bring them up to speed.

Back on topic: I feel that GW's handling of their North American events team was and continues to be an epic tragedy. Support these days rarely extends past the thresholds of their hobby centers. While this may work in Europe due to population density - in sprawled out North America, this strategy only insulates their business against potential customers. Almost all large tournaments of note are run by independents. In smaller urban areas and rural areas, the buck has been passed to independent clubs to promote the hobby. While I can't speak to the level of support that GW extends to the former, from experience, the support that GW supports to the latter is decidedly lacklustre.

GW needs to go back to the days of chapter approved, being able to release models and rules via a monthly update, this would do two things. Add more value then painting lessons to white dwarf, and drive sales on armies inbetween their book and splash release cycle.

It sounds like they may do this with the storm raven, as they did with that eldar thingy. (I've not ran into an eldar player since it came out.) The issue this needs to be more often, if not every other month. Or better yet, if there is no new army book coming, then follow through with this series.

This would provide essentially a rules release each month, and as updates for various armies would come out through the years, that when a new book time comes, they can complie and edit instead of spending so long on release cycles.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Can I just say that it's nice to see this thread is free from the usual anti-GW Internet Hyperbole and, for once, seems to be a logical discussion of actual business flaws.

Well done Dakka. I can actually say "Stay classy" without meaning it ironically.

I was actually just thinking this also. I completely agree.
Not that they would, but if anyone from GW were to read this they could actually learn some good insight and that's just coming from 'us', I can confidently say that the majority of us aren't exactly business experts, but if we know(?) where things are going wrong then that must mean something...

Acardia wrote:GW needs to go back to the days of chapter approved, being able to release models and rules via a monthly update, this would do two things. Add more value then painting lessons to white dwarf, and drive sales on armies inbetween their book and splash release cycle.

It sounds like they may do this with the storm raven, as they did with that eldar thingy. (I've not ran into an eldar player since it came out.) The issue this needs to be more often, if not every other month. Or better yet, if there is no new army book coming, then follow through with this series.

This would provide essentially a rules release each month, and as updates for various armies would come out through the years, that when a new book time comes, they can complie and edit instead of spending so long on release cycles.

And then people who aren't willing to buy a crappy, overpriced magazine fall behind?

We've had the internet for public use for almost 20 years now. Maybe it's time GW actually used it for something constructive...