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Howard A Treesong wrote:Such behaviour will get you in trouble with the police, they see it as "assault" regardless if the other person "broke your toy", which is probably how they will see it. Other people holding you back from physically hurting someone are doing you a favour.

I know of one event where some guy wasn't happy that he didn't win one of the painting classes. He loudly voiced his dissatisfaction quite a bit and when the winner went up to get his award it turned into actual booing. You really don't expect these things at model shows, they're usually very quiet events. Unfortunately the winner's son was standing behind this git and belted him. End result was that *he* was then in trouble with the police, doubt anything really came of it though.

One of my mum's friends was involved in some gaming group or local meeting (not a proper tournament) where a kid lost a game, flew into a rage and kicked the table over with both his and his opponent's models. I guess your case proves that some people just don't grow up.

The use of force is generally acceptable when protecting property.

shrike wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:First game of my first tourny after learning how to play 40k back in '06. I was cheated by TFG.

Only consolation was that nearly everyone in the store knew him as a cheat, and although his Nids got through to the final, he was tabled by a pure GK list.

how did he cheat you?

By killing off my terminators + terminator lord through tactically telling me to go and fetch things needed to measure the distance from his Carnifex whilst he tactically shifted the models closer. First was a tape measure and he found out that he hadn't moved the models close enough (I could tell he'd moved them because the heavy flamer i'd placed facing the genestealers next to the fex was now pointing at the fex instead), the second time was fetching the TO (or GW employee in this case) which gave him enough time to move 3/5 termies and the lord close enough to have mishapped and died. The remaining termies (heavy flamer and combi-flamer killed 3 genestealers and then died to the fex i'd planned to powerfist down).

He was a veteran though, and I, being about 5 years younger than him and just another newb to most of the other vets, decided it was best to back down and not look stupid by pointing the finger and having it laughed away using the "i'm-a-veteran-and-you've-barely-started-playing-lol-noob" card.

Worst time I ever had at a tournament, would definitely be when not my opponent gave me a hard time but when TFG decided to lean over towards my opponent and say "this is the last turn you should move your razorbacks up and contest those objectives." As my opponent had almost begun his shooting phase and said "thanks for reminding me."

This angered me to no end as i was playing tyranids as my army was cc based and all my units were trying to deal with a dread and several wolfguard terminators. I ended up losing that game by the objectives he contested.

Avatar 720 wrote:
By killing off my terminators + terminator lord through tactically telling me to go and fetch things needed to measure the distance from his Carnifex whilst he tactically shifted the models closer.

I do not think that word thinks what you think it means.

pretre wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:
By killing off my terminators + terminator lord through tactically telling me to go and fetch things needed to measure the distance from his Carnifex whilst he tactically shifted the models closer.

I do not think that word thinks what you think it means.

That doesn't really make sense...

And yes I know what 'tactically' means, I was being sarcastic.

Avatar 720 wrote:

pretre wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:
By killing off my terminators + terminator lord through tactically telling me to go and fetch things needed to measure the distance from his Carnifex whilst he tactically shifted the models closer.

I do not think that word thinks what you think it means.

That doesn't really make sense...

And yes I know what 'tactically' means, I was being sarcastic.

Lol Served myself. " I do not think that word means what you think it means" is what I meant to say. Which makes it much more funny.

Princess Bride FTW.

There was a player at one of the stores I used to go to, before i moved stateside, that would do this. He was a master of the accidental nudge and the 'oh wait, i think i'll move them over here instead' distance adding technique.

What was ironic was that everyone in the store could beat hi anyway, down to the store cat and the guy who just bought his first starterbox and wound up with this guy as his first opponent.

We all knew he cheated, and we called him on it from time to time, but frankly he needed the help

We made sure to point out to any newbies that what he was doing was wrong, to make sure they didn't go the same way, but I don't think he ever took the hint. His win/loss record was something like 0/42 when i left the area

'It's cruel to mock the afflicted'

Nagashek wrote:[I get huffy when my plans fail (through dice rolling, not because i'm an idiot. When i'm the idiot, I usually just roll with it.
I tend to laugh when that happens. It hleps laughing at that stuff.

On the other side of things, I enjoy having debriefings after games. I usually point out where my plans worked and what was just plain luck.
I do that, as well as point out where the loser (me or them) went wrong, as well as our "man/xenos of the battle."
It changes my attitude alot I've noticed in recent games to simply imagine warriors slipping on bloodsplattered ground or getting a bug in their mouth to explain away a series of botches. Describing such things helps the narrative of the game, as well.
like that. I laugh, then say, for example, if lysander fails dangerous terrain and dies, that the emperor has a sick sense of humour, and that he mystically changed his thunder hammer for a squeaky plastic one, so he went home and cried about it, or he saw a butterfly and chased after it. I had one game where the long-running joke was the IG were tring to kill marines with torches, and they had eppileptic fits, because the IG player fails at everything. He lost his CCS in combat with fire warriors.

Taoofss wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Such behaviour will get you in trouble with the police, they see it as "assault" regardless if the other person "broke your toy", which is probably how they will see it. Other people holding you back from physically hurting someone are doing you a favour.

I know of one event where some guy wasn't happy that he didn't win one of the painting classes. He loudly voiced his dissatisfaction quite a bit and when the winner went up to get his award it turned into actual booing. You really don't expect these things at model shows, they're usually very quiet events. Unfortunately the winner's son was standing behind this git and belted him. End result was that *he* was then in trouble with the police, doubt anything really came of it though.

One of my mum's friends was involved in some gaming group or local meeting (not a proper tournament) where a kid lost a game, flew into a rage and kicked the table over with both his and his opponent's models. I guess your case proves that some people just don't grow up.

The use of force is generally acceptable when protecting property.

After the fact would only work against theft. In the case of destruction it would have to be during the act, at least in Texas. After the fact, you are not justified.

12thRonin wrote:

Taoofss wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Such behaviour will get you in trouble with the police, they see it as "assault" regardless if the other person "broke your toy", which is probably how they will see it. Other people holding you back from physically hurting someone are doing you a favour.

I know of one event where some guy wasn't happy that he didn't win one of the painting classes. He loudly voiced his dissatisfaction quite a bit and when the winner went up to get his award it turned into actual booing. You really don't expect these things at model shows, they're usually very quiet events. Unfortunately the winner's son was standing behind this git and belted him. End result was that *he* was then in trouble with the police, doubt anything really came of it though.

One of my mum's friends was involved in some gaming group or local meeting (not a proper tournament) where a kid lost a game, flew into a rage and kicked the table over with both his and his opponent's models. I guess your case proves that some people just don't grow up.

The use of force is generally acceptable when protecting property.

After the fact would only work against theft. In the case of destruction it would have to be during the act, at least in Texas. After the fact, you are not justified.

In this case (somewhere around page 3 or 4) it was during the act. Guy said he decked his opponent while he was still jumping on his model.

Avatar 720 wrote:

shrike wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:First game of my first tourny after learning how to play 40k back in '06. I was cheated by TFG.

Only consolation was that nearly everyone in the store knew him as a cheat, and although his Nids got through to the final, he was tabled by a pure GK list.

how did he cheat you?

By killing off my terminators + terminator lord through tactically telling me to go and fetch things needed to measure the distance from his Carnifex whilst he tactically shifted the models closer. First was a tape measure and he found out that he hadn't moved the models close enough (I could tell he'd moved them because the heavy flamer i'd placed facing the genestealers next to the fex was now pointing at the fex instead), the second time was fetching the TO (or GW employee in this case) which gave him enough time to move 3/5 termies and the lord close enough to have mishapped and died. The remaining termies (heavy flamer and combi-flamer killed 3 genestealers and then died to the fex i'd planned to powerfist down).

He was a veteran though, and I, being about 5 years younger than him and just another newb to most of the other vets, decided it was best to back down and not look stupid by pointing the finger and having it laughed away using the "i'm-a-veteran-and-you've-barely-started-playing-lol-noob" card.

and how does this make you feel?
that's low, a pro needing to resort to cheating against a newbie...

Worst thing that happened to me was during a casual game in a FLGS and it was NOT my opponent who did it to me.

In the middle of the game one of the other guys in the store approached our table and picked up my defiler (fully painted) without asking, and before any of us could intervene he breaks off one of its claws with the comment "Oh thats a nice model, are those ball joints movable?"...

Needless to say I was pretty angry - the guy was then thrown out by the store owner and we interrupted our game to repair that defiler (luckily it could be glued back together cleanly).

Taoofss wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

Taoofss wrote:
The use of force is generally acceptable when protecting property.

After the fact would only work against theft. In the case of destruction it would have to be during the act, at least in Texas. After the fact, you are not justified.

In this case (somewhere around page 3 or 4) it was during the act. Guy said he decked his opponent while he was still jumping on his model.

Too many people believe that force and deadly force can be used in all instances and cases to protect property when that is not true and the odds are likely that you will still be arrested and charged. Plus regardless of if you are in the right or not, are the costs of the ride and the rap of misdemeanor or felony assault or attempted murder worth more or less than that model?

12thRonin wrote:
Too many people believe that force and deadly force can be used in all instances and cases to protect property when that is not true and the odds are likely that you will still be arrested and charged. Plus regardless of if you are in the right or not, are the costs of the ride and the rap of misdemeanor or felony assault or attempted murder worth more or less than that model?

The trick is for it to be restrained force directly proportional to what the other guy does. As long as you're reactionary and you have witnesses to back you up, its not likely you'll be charged. Even if they do charge you, it only because they'll just want to scare you or convince you to plead down to something so small its not worth your time to fight... like disorderly conduct.

aka_mythos wrote:

12thRonin wrote:
Too many people believe that force and deadly force can be used in all instances and cases to protect property when that is not true and the odds are likely that you will still be arrested and charged. Plus regardless of if you are in the right or not, are the costs of the ride and the rap of misdemeanor or felony assault or attempted murder worth more or less than that model?

The trick is for it to be restrained force directly proportional to what the other guy does. As long as you're reactionary and you have witnesses to back you up, its not likely you'll be charged. Even if they do charge you, it only because they'll just want to scare you or convince you to plead down to something so small its not worth your time to fight... like disorderly conduct.

Criminal charges are going to follow you around for years - every employer who interviews you is going to turn those up in a quick internet search, and you don't want to be explaining that you punched some guy for breaking your toy soldiers.

You're jumping to the most extreme of situations as prosecuted by an overzealous prosecuter.

Like I said, if you're playing at place where you have friends hopefully they'll back you up when talking to the police. If none are willing to back you up with the police your friends are probably not friendly enough to want to play with. If you seriously think you're going to get convicted when several witnesses and likely the owner say the other guy was at fault, you're living in a terrible place. Unless everyone in your store is a duche-bag you're not going to get a successful prosectution for a misdemeanor when multiple people with presumably clean slates back you up and inform the police the other guys instigated the incident and was at fault. Using moderate proportional force, and by that I mean nothing that requires a hosptial visit... by that I mean taking back your model... by that I mean blocking his departure if he's trying to walk off with your property or siezing his hand when he tries to break something... no punching, no kicking, etc... if he acts violently than you have witnesses... the most that might happen to you would be disorderly conduct. In most states disordely conduct is only a "Violation" and is not actionable by employers... treated the same as a speeding ticket.

If you seriously believe what you say, you live in a self induced state of persecution or should seriously question why you're living in any town that would be so authoritarian.

aka_mythos wrote:You're jumping to the most extreme of situations as prosecuted by an overzealous prosecuted.

aka_mythos wrote: Even if they do charge you, it only because they'll just want to scare you or convince you to plead down to something so small its not worth your time to fight... like disorderly conduct.

I'm jumping to the most extreme of situations?

Understand, too, that we all have somewhat different perspectives on such situations. I'm a lawyer, and I know that if I were attacked, I would press charges to the greatest extent I could push forward; I assume others would do the same.

Reality check time, though - toy soldiers aren't worth getting into physical altercations over. There is no "proportional" physical response to someone breaking one.

In a lot of cities, getting the prosecuter to go after a misdemeanor is easier than a small time felony. In ohio big boy felonies are handled at the county level, while misdemeanors can be prosecuted by the city.

If that doesn't work, you can always file in small claims court.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Janthkin wrote:
Reality check time, though - toy soldiers aren't worth getting into physical altercations over. There is no "proportional" physical response to someone breaking one.

Yeah, few (if any) states still allow Defense of Property as an affirmative defense.

As I don't live in the US I don't know what is considered a socially acceptable reaction to that situation.

But I do know that there exists varying degrees of physical response to such a situation.
A firm arm/shirt grab or a light shove (taking care of surroundings) might also have stopped the offending action.

Punching is IMO a serious over-reaction and I assume (not being a lawyer, and living under a different legal system) must contain a higher probability of legal ramifications.

PS. For the curious I live in Denmark where we don't allow guns in the hands of civilians (beyond hunting/sports) and civil lawsuits are basically unheard of.

Honestly situations like that are generally resolved with the person in question being banned from the store, or the victim never returning to a place that condones that sort of behavior.

It also wouldn't be uncommon for a store owner to ease the situation by providing a new model, or hobby supplies, or somehow helping out the victim.

I live in Texas where there are very liberal laws as to what you can and cannot do in terms of self defense and defense of property. Even if you are in the clear from a legal standpoint, you still can be charged if the DA wants to push it. Assault over a $50 model would be one that would likely get attention due to the absurdity of it. It would stand out that if this person is emotionally immature enough to resort to violence in this case, what else would they do in cases of stress? It doesn't matter what you think or believe, it matters what the prosecutor says and your defense attorney says and if the 12 people on the jury believe it. You're likely to not get much sympathy.

There is no such thing either as modest or proportional. It's either justified use of force or it is not, regardless of if it is deadly force. Use of force can intentionally or unintentionally become deadly force very quickly.

So here's a very real scenario: This guy breaks your model and jumps up and down on it. You punch him in the head while doing so, knocking him off balance. He falls and hits his head on the edge of a table splitting his skull open or bounces off the concrete which causes him to fracture his skull and hemorrhage. You have just killed a person over a $50 model. You may or may not be charged with murder or manslaughter. Plus you live the rest of your life with the fact you killed someone. Is it worth it?

And before you say this is an extreme example, situations where punches to the head being killing blows are very, very common.

Janthkin wrote:Understand, too, that we all have somewhat different perspectives on such situations. I'm a lawyer, and I know that if I were attacked, I would press charges to the greatest extent I could push forward; I assume others would do the same.

Thats what I mean by an "extreme of situations"... you can use force without harming a person. I was even explicit in it being mostly passive force upto the point where he commits the first violent action. I never said to attack the offending person, I was explicit about not attacking them. There is some reasonable amount of force that is acceptable to preventing the commission of a crime, the damage to ones property. Any opinion outside of that are merely the legal dilusion of the realities of right and wrong.

Janthkin wrote:Reality check time, though - toy soldiers aren't worth getting into physical altercations over. There is no "proportional" physical response to someone breaking one.

You say that but I've seen someone trash $3000+ worth of models that required many more hours to assemble and prepare... because someone else had a tantrum. There are cars that aren't worth that much that people have defended more vigourously than you prescribe. Just because you do not attribute the same worth as other doesn't mean you should sit back. Quantifiably months of someones time lost, no difference in damage than if the individual who owned them had been wrongfully kept a prisoner by the same individual for that same time. Law is but a bandaid for the circumstances that have transpired because they are inherently passive. Any person with a moral compass would rather be right but "guilty" than unjust and wrong. I know many lawyers and I know most would have enough solidarity and empathy to act to prevent an injustice when possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

12thRonin wrote:
There is no such thing either as modest or proportional. It's either justified use of force or it is not, regardless of if it is deadly force. Use of force can intentionally or unintentionally become deadly force very quickly.

So here's a very real scenario: This guy breaks your model and jumps up and down on it. You punch him in the head while doing so, knocking him off balance. He falls and hits his head on the edge of a table splitting his skull open or bounces off the concrete which causes him to fracture his skull and hemorrhage. You have just killed a person over a $50 model. You may or may not be charged with murder or manslaughter. Plus you live the rest of your life with the fact you killed someone. Is it worth it?

In my example no one was able to act to prevent the damage and no punches were thrown but they barred the person from leaving till the police arrived. They forced the criminal to stay, against his will. That is what I would call reasonable. Its only the absolutist who say do nothing, that I have a problem with.

So here's a very real scenario: This guy breaks your model and jumps up and down on it. You punch him in the head while doing so, knocking him off balance. He falls and hits his head on the edge of a table splitting his skull open or bounces off the concrete which causes him to fracture his skull and hemorrhage. You have just killed a person over a $50 model. You may or may not be charged with murder or manslaughter. Plus you live the rest of your life with the fact you killed someone. Is it worth it?

And before you say this is an extreme example, situations where punches to the head being killing blows are very, very common.

And, in the same vein...
Someone's jumping up and down on your model, but you don't move to stop him. He slips on a bit, he falls and hits his head on the edge of a table splitting his skull open or bounces off the concrete which causes him to fracture his skull and hemorrhage.
Suddenly, the guys' dead and you're getting sued by his family because you did nothing, and it was your model he slipped on.

And before you say this is an extreme example, situations where families sue innocent people over things like this are very, very common.

One of my good friends is a personal injury attorney, and he could regale you for hours with stories of what you and I probably would see as stupid people doing stupid things and getting paid because they got hurt doing it and sued (or their family did).

I'm not saying it's LIKELY, but my point is that it happens.

On the subject of physical violence; I think I would probably have a reputation of being one of the more level headed people on here, and I rarely ever get riled up. I'm honestly not sure what I'd do in this situation, though.
If the guy's obviously an adult, my inclination WILL be to wade in swinging. I can only hope my better sense would take over, though. Ten years ago, however, I'd have had nothing stopping me. I know it's what I'd have done.

Not saying it's right. Not saying it's defensible. Just saying that's what I'd have done.

For those of you preaching to others about what they should and should not do, remember that not everyone thinks like you and not everyone was raised like you. At least they're being honest about what their reaction would be. Right or wrong, at least they deserve credit for honesty and introspection.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:
And, in the same vein...
Someone's jumping up and down on your model, but you don't move to stop him. He slips on a bit, he falls and hits his head on the edge of a table splitting his skull open or bounces off the concrete which causes him to fracture his skull and hemorrhage.
Suddenly, the guys' dead and you're getting sued by his family because you did nothing, and it was your model he slipped on.

And before you say this is an extreme example, situations where families sue innocent people over things like this are very, very common.

One of my good friends is a personal injury attorney, and he could regale you for hours with stories of what you and I probably would see as stupid people doing stupid things and getting paid because they got hurt doing it and sued (or their family did).

I'm not saying it's LIKELY, but my point is that it happens.

Showing negligence on their part is easy since their problem is caused by their actions and this isn't a woman being burned because McDonalds had the coffee stored at 185 degrees.. I have no responsibility to prevent someone from hurting themselves. It's not a fair comparison and he didn't slip on it. Good luck proving I'm negligent because you're an idiot. It's also a bad analogy because you go from causing the death of the person to seeing it happen. Huge difference.

Civil tort != criminal by a long shot. I'll take a trip to civil court anytime.

On the subject of physical violence; I think I would probably have a reputation of being one of the more level headed people on here, and I rarely ever get riled up. I'm honestly not sure what I'd do in this situation, though.
If the guy's obviously an adult, my inclination WILL be to wade in swinging. I can only hope my better sense would take over, though. Ten years ago, however, I'd have had nothing stopping me. I know it's what I'd have done.

Not saying it's right. Not saying it's defensible. Just saying that's what I'd have done.

For those of you preaching to others about what they should and should not do, remember that not everyone thinks like you and not everyone was raised like you. At least they're being honest about what their reaction would be. Right or wrong, at least they deserve credit for honesty and introspection.

Eric

No, they don't deserve credit since if they were performing introspection they would realize the same thing you did and go "This is the incorrect response" and change it. Internet tough-guying is just a different form of trying to be a bully. The reaction to immediately go from zero to game time with no attempt to defuse or walk away from the situation is a sign that the person has a maturity problem. Defense of property is not something that should not immediately illicit a violent response. Stuff is stuff and the vast majority of stuff can be replaced. Your life and livelihood is an entirely different case.

That's the other side of this coin. Suppose this guy has the "I'm not going to back down" mentality and beats you to an inch of your life or pulls a knife and gun and sends you on your way to your ultimate reward. Who looks out for your family then?

All over a broken model. Really?

More funny tournament stories?

Yeah, quit arguing so I can read more stories about terrible and stupid people. This is boring. And you are digressing from the point of the topic.

Janthkin wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:You're jumping to the most extreme of situations as prosecuted by an overzealous prosecuted.

aka_mythos wrote: Even if they do charge you, it only because they'll just want to scare you or convince you to plead down to something so small its not worth your time to fight... like disorderly conduct.

I'm jumping to the most extreme of situations?

Understand, too, that we all have somewhat different perspectives on such situations. I'm a lawyer, and I know that if I were attacked, I would press charges to the greatest extent I could push forward; I assume others would do the same.

Reality check time, though - toy soldiers aren't worth getting into physical altercations over. There is no "proportional" physical response to someone breaking one.

Janthkin, your first mistake was attempting to inject a reasonable, well thought out and mature perspective on an internet forum peopled primarily by table-top wargamers.

Your second mistake was in believing that those same wargamers would recognize your perspective as being reasonable, well thought out and mature.

Nerd rage uber alles.

Trust me, he's a lawyer, he's used to it.

For some people, it may be just toys. For others, its hundreds of hours of work, with details so fine, you could argue its art.

I just gotta hate those overpowered lists... Tyranids: nothing to shoot at on turn 1; 1 gun drone not in close combat left when I was allowed to play again. great, loads of fun...
And someone telling me his space wolf scouts could Infiltrate 18 inch from me then scout move, ending up 6 inch with his melta bombs.

But the most irritating ever was one tournament, I didn't know the rules that good yet. First player told me:
'you have to take away those models UNDER the blast marker - in his favor.
second told me absolutely not to - in his favor
third told me to do so again - in his favor -.-

And the worst thing I ever did was tank shock trough a wall, arguing my skimmers flied over it then tank shocked downwards (there was no space for the vehicle between the wall and the models). The vehicle can drop downwards and crush those eldar basterds can't it? Not really cheating, but when he falled back over 9 inches, being JUST out of range of the objective... that's where I felt really bad :p