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Taoofss wrote:For some people, it may be just toys. For others, its hundreds of hours of work, with details so fine, you could argue its art.

looking at some of the 'eavy metal team's stuff, like marneus calgar's land raider, or the fortress of arrogance. I think they're art. If someone painted that on paper, it would be.

.Kern. wrote:I just gotta hate those overpowered lists... Tyranids: nothing to shoot at on turn 1; 1 gun drone not in close combat left when I was allowed to play again. great, loads of fun...
And someone telling me his space wolf scouts could Infiltrate 18 inch from me then scout move, ending up 6 inch with his melta bombs.

But the most irritating ever was one tournament, I didn't know the rules that good yet. First player told me:
'you have to take away those models UNDER the blast marker - in his favor.
second told me absolutely not to - in his favor
third told me to do so again - in his favor -.-

And the worst thing I ever did was tank shock trough a wall, arguing my skimmers flied over it then tank shocked downwards (there was no space for the vehicle between the wall and the models). The vehicle can drop downwards and crush those eldar basterds can't it? Not really cheating, but when he falled back over 9 inches, being JUST out of range of the objective... that's where I felt really bad :p

Isn't that move with skimmers legit? I thought one of the main reasons Eldar still did well was their ability to selectively tank shock in a straight line up to 24", skipping over intervening terrain along the way.

It is. His post is a bit challenging to understand.

Not sure how Tyranids arrive on the board and wipe you out on Turn 1... Maybe Turn 2 with outflankers if you park close to the edge.

The SW Scouts thing is pretty legal, although they have to stop at 12.01 no matter what (Infiltrate and Scout move).

As soon as the "GAME" becomes a "Fight" or "argument" - the fun stops at least for me....

Aldonis wrote:As soon as the "GAME" becomes a "Fight" or "argument" - the fun stops at least for me....

Agreed, I can't stand playing a game that consists of an argument phase.

Worst thing done to me: Can't really remember, most of our guys play pretty fair. The only one I can remember was when I let a guy that forgot to shoot his melta gun at my vidicator, so I let him thinking that he would do the same for me if something came up. So he weapon destroys my vindicator and his terminators that had just deepstruck into a lovely pile get to run amok all over my army. Then I overheard him not allowing a newer player the same courtesy in nearly the reverse of the situation. I had no qualms about telling him that it was the last time I would be willing to give him wiggle room.

Worst thing I've done: Wasn't so much illegal as me getting pissy. I was playing a new kid (probably 11-12) and his dice were on fire, example: He was playing orks and put 8 of my 9 raiders and ravagers in the dirt with big shootas and lootas. He got a little cocky and was proclaiming how awesome orks were in that horrible accent that ork players tend to emulate. I then slammed my archon, dracon, and my entire reaver squadron into his nob biker squad, when the smoke cleared they were gone and I was in his flank. I tabled him the next round

LucasLAD wrote:Worst thing I've done: Wasn't so much illegal as me getting pissy. I was playing a new kid (probably 11-12) and his dice were on fire, example: He was playing orks and put 8 of my 9 raiders and ravagers in the dirt with big shootas and lootas. He got a little cocky and was proclaiming how awesome orks were in that horrible accent that ork players tend to emulate. I then slammed my archon, dracon, and my entire reaver squadron into his nob biker squad, when the smoke cleared they were gone and I was in his flank. I tabled him the next round

I don't blame you. I had a kid kill my captain with massed gaunts, bragged about how his army is best, and my TH/SS termies came in and wiped half his army- all his synapse creatures and his genestealers. Nearly all his army fled, leaving 1,000pts of raven guard facing up to a carnifex and 20 gaunts.

Aldonis wrote:As soon as the "GAME" becomes a "Fight" or "argument" - the fun stops at least for me....

This was one of the reasons why I didn't like War of the Ring was the argument phase of it.

LucasLAD wrote:Agreed, I can't stand playing a game that consists of an argument phase

Argument phase? That's brilliant! I've never heard that term before and I love it.

I've had a game or two like that. Absolutely miserable.

yep. One kid tried to convince me that because he had Bjorn, every vehicle in the army got venerable. okay then...show me the codex entry. Guess what? He said no.
He challenged every rule I used.
"Your guys can't move 12"!"
"Jump infrantry."
"Show me!"
*shows codex*
"...shut up. You won't listen to MEEEE!"
"You keep challenging everything I say."
"No I don't!"

Why would you play against someone like that?

I've packed up my models on more than one occasion when someone was just being too much of a douche. I play this game for fun, not to suffer angry and socially awkward neckbeards.

Monster Rain wrote:Why would you play against someone like that?

I've packed up my models on more than one occasion when someone was just being too much of a douche. I play this game for fun, not to suffer angry and socially awkward neckbeards.

Well, here's an account of what happened:
-he claims all termies are 2+/3++, including SB-armed ones.
-I put it down to a mistake.
-he claims rhinos can self-repair wrecked results on a 5+.
-I put it down to general noobyness.
-he claims all psykers on a 3+ die because he has this SC.
-I ask to see the codex entry that states it.
-he refuses.
-I say that I won't let him do it until I see the entry.
-He drops it, I put it down to extreme noobyness.
-He DS'es his 5 termies 1cm away from my squad, and rolls a direct hit.
-I didn't notice (dropped some dice), and say he has to roll a mishap, or re-do the roll.
-He claims that he can move them back in the movement phase and ignore the mishap roll.
-I say the rules don't work like that.
-He insists it is so, and upon several other backing me up, he claims he could have easily beaten me if I didn't "cheat", and that his 5 SB's would have killed my 12-man unit of a captain, chapter master and 10 vanguards.
-I point out that even if he hit and wounded every roll, and I failed armour every time, there would still be 2 guys remaining, he claims his 10 wolfscouts would have killed my devastator squad, inquisitor & retinue and vanguards.
-I point out that they would have been floored by my 700-point vanguard squad.
-He proclaims "YOU JUST WON'T LISTEN" and ragequits, mumbling about how I cheat and how he'd destroy me next time. Every time I see him, he asks "Will you give me a game so I can destroy you?" Upon which point I say "1- you got tabled by me turn 3, 2- I doubt that you could "destroy" me as much as I destroyed you last game, and 3- I won't, because you cry about every rule I use and generally make it a waste of time and unenjoyable."

aka_mythos wrote:Reality check time, though - toy soldiers aren't worth getting into physical altercations over. There is no "proportional" physical response to someone breaking one.

The point is the value of the item being destroyed, not the actual item. What if he got mad and tore your coat? Threw your cheap digital camera on the ground? Is jumping up and down on your glasses?

12thRonin wrote:Assault over a $50 model would be one that would likely get attention due to the absurdity of it. It would stand out that if this person is emotionally immature enough to resort to violence in this case, what else would they do in cases of stress?

Same point. the fact that is a game/toy/model is 100% irrelevant. You are protecting $50 worth of property, not a toy. If somebody stole a $50 bill and is in the process of tearing it in front of you and you punched them in the face to stop them, would it still be absurd? Would people talk about how you are emotionally immature because you took action to protect your property and kept somebody from destroying a $50 bill?

I could care less if somebody destroys my toys, I care very much that somebody is destroying my property.

d-usa wrote:

12thRonin wrote:Assault over a $50 model would be one that would likely get attention due to the absurdity of it. It would stand out that if this person is emotionally immature enough to resort to violence in this case, what else would they do in cases of stress?

Same point. the fact that is a game/toy/model is 100% irrelevant. You are protecting $50 worth of property, not a toy. If somebody stole a $50 bill and is in the process of tearing it in front of you and you punched them in the face to stop them, would it still be absurd? Would people talk about how you are emotionally immature because you took action to protect your property and kept somebody from destroying a $50 bill?

I could care less if somebody destroys my toys, I care very much that somebody is destroying my property.

Yup, still absurd. There are legal recourses to someone destroying your property, whatever it is. None of them involve punching someone in the face.

d-usa wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Reality check time, though - toy soldiers aren't worth getting into physical altercations over. There is no "proportional" physical response to someone breaking one.

The point is the value of the item being destroyed, not the actual item. What if he got mad and tore your coat? Threw your cheap digital camera on the ground? Is jumping up and down on your glasses?

12thRonin wrote:Assault over a $50 model would be one that would likely get attention due to the absurdity of it. It would stand out that if this person is emotionally immature enough to resort to violence in this case, what else would they do in cases of stress?

Same point. the fact that is a game/toy/model is 100% irrelevant. You are protecting $50 worth of property, not a toy. If somebody stole a $50 bill and is in the process of tearing it in front of you and you punched them in the face to stop them, would it still be absurd? Would people talk about how you are emotionally immature because you took action to protect your property and kept somebody from destroying a $50 bill?

I could care less if somebody destroys my toys, I care very much that somebody is destroying my property.

I think the immaturity comes into play when people refuse to aknowledge that the paining side of this hobby if in FACT art, it may not be main stream art, or of great tallent in most cases, but the point is that you are expressing yourself in an ARTISTIC way.

So stealing your logic, if i smashed the Mona-Lisa, I would be in an apropriate ammount of trouble.
If you smashed my Better than Eavy-metal standard mini's that have taken me LITERALLY months to do.. you would be in an apropriate ammount of trouble.
its all relative, what is not relative, is that they are both art.

to be more clear, there was an art piece at the Tate in London, it was a bed... that had been slept in... with cans around it... This is not art in my opinion, but my opinion does not sutract from the fact that it is art. because it was an expresion of the person making it.

shrike wrote:
-He proclaims "YOU JUST WON'T LISTEN" and ragequits, mumbling about how I cheat and how he'd destroy me next time. Every time I see him, he asks "Will you give me a game so I can destroy you?" Upon which point I say "1- you got tabled by me turn 3, 2- I doubt that you could "destroy" me as much as I destroyed you last game, and 3- I won't, because you cry about every rule I use and generally make it a waste of time and unenjoyable."

you good sir are my new hero

Formosa wrote:I think the immaturity comes into play when people refuse to aknowledge that the paining side of this hobby if in FACT art, it may not be main stream art, or of great tallent in most cases, but the point is that you are expressing yourself in an ARTISTIC way.

So stealing your logic, if i smashed the Mona-Lisa, I would be in an apropriate ammount of trouble.
If you smashed my Better than Eavy-metal standard mini's that have taken me LITERALLY months to do.. you would be in an apropriate ammount of trouble.
its all relative, what is not relative, is that they are both art.

to be more clear, there was an art piece at the Tate in London, it was a bed... that had been slept in... with cans around it... This is not art in my opinion, but my opinion does not sutract from the fact that it is art. because it was an expresion of the person making it.

I left the art aspect out of my argument, because it can be subject to such wild ranges of opinion.

But a $50 model is worth, at the very least, $50. If you want to count the art aspect, in addition to time and labor, the value of the model comes up. But the comparison of a $50 model to a $50 bill is using the minimum value. If I would be forced to go to court because I protected my property I would make a heavy argument that my $50 model is worth more than that. Maybe by taking into comparison what the fair market value of painted models vs. unpainted models is. Or if I had a model that I paid to have painted I certainly would add that to the value.

But my point stands. If somebody takes a $50 bill from you and starts to tear it in front of your face, according to some folks on here I am supposed to watch him destroy it while getting his contact information so that I can later press charges. Meanwhile the store owner is supposed to give me a new $50 bill because of a crime that everybody witnesses and nobody stopped.

If somebody destroys $50 worth of property I will protect it. My reaction would depend on the value of the property being destroyed. Having some idiot jump on a rank & file Space Marine would make me angry, but having the same guy jump on a Forgeworld Dreadnought that I paid over $100 for is going to cause me to protect my investment.

I agree with you D-Usa, but I think that the Art aspect moves these models more into the "priceless" area for me, no matter how hard you try, no 2 models will ever be the same, there will always be slight diferences, this in my mind makes them unique and thus priceless.

I have a Model, its a Screamer Killer, this is the first model i ever got, It was given to me by my Brother, he has since "passed away" this model will never be repainted and will never be sold or replaced, I still use it to Game with it mainly due to its Value to me... now can any of you tell me that is not priceless?
and you would not be more than a little miffed if it was Stollen or destroyed on purpose? (acidents are just that, acidents)
These "Toys" are not just toys to some people, my crappy painted ugly screamer killer is a direct link to my brother, it has real emotional meaning for me. It is worth as much if not more than the Mona Lisa

Do you guys see what im getting at?

Janthkin wrote:Yup, still absurd. There are legal recourses to someone destroying your property, whatever it is.

Since you seem to be knowledgeable about such legal matters, once you pay your fees and whatnot how much of that 50$ will you actually recoup by going to small-claims court? I'm genuinely curious.

Janthkin wrote:None of them involve punching someone in the face.

It seems like this whole line of argument is predicated on someone calling the cops. Please tell me that someone getting a little rap on the mouth for being an property-destroying donkey-cave isn't something that would have to immediately involve the police? We had some crazy gak go down in our LGS back in NH. I mean crazy. I mean there was WWE style metal chair swinging. The police were never involved.

Monster Rain wrote:

Janthkin wrote:Yup, still absurd. There are legal recourses to someone destroying your property, whatever it is.

Since you seem to be knowledgeable about such legal matters, once you pay your fees and whatnot how much of that 50$ will you actually recoup by going to small-claims court? I'm genuinely curious.

There is no simple answer to that question. Small claims fees vary by state (and, at least in California, by the amount you are seeking). The amount you are likely to recover is also going to vary, depending on the cost of the model itself, plus whatever you can convince a judge the paint job is worth (quotes from paint-by-commission services might be useful here, to establish a baseline value).

Janthkin wrote:None of them involve punching someone in the face.

It seems like this whole line of argument is predicated on someone calling the cops. Please tell me that someone getting a little rap on the mouth for being an property-destroying donkey-cave isn't something that would have to immediately involve the police? We had some crazy gak go down in our LGS back in NH. I mean crazy. I mean there was WWE style metal chair swinging. The police were never involved.

As I mentioned a few pages back, this is an area where we're all going to have our own spin on things. As a lawyer, I assume that anyone who gets physically assaulted is going to call the cops, press charges, and probably file a civil suit for battery; my own opinions and actions will generally reflect that bias.

Seriously, can we drop the legal crud and talk about horrible tournament stories?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote: We had some crazy gak go down in our LGS back in NH. I mean crazy. I mean there was WWE style metal chair swinging. The police were never involved.

Now this is on topic. Please tell me more.

Monster Rain wrote:

Janthkin wrote:Yup, still absurd. There are legal recourses to someone destroying your property, whatever it is.

Since you seem to be knowledgeable about such legal matters, once you pay your fees and whatnot how much of that 50$ will you actually recoup by going to small-claims court? I'm genuinely curious.

Janthkin wrote:None of them involve punching someone in the face.

It seems like this whole line of argument is predicated on someone calling the cops. Please tell me that someone getting a little rap on the mouth for being an property-destroying donkey-cave isn't something that would have to immediately involve the police? We had some crazy gak go down in our LGS back in NH. I mean crazy. I mean there was WWE style metal chair swinging. The police were never involved.

Oh, really? One person attacked another person with a metal chair, and no police were called? Really?

It's as simple as this. You are allowed to use a reasonable amount of force to protect your property. There is no allowance in the law for you to use any amount of force to take revenge for someone damaging your property.

I'll be completely blunt. If anyone were to physically assault me for any reason, the cops would be called, after the altercation were complete. The only way he could keep me from calling the cops would be to kill me.

Haha...I have to say, I find it hilarious all the wargamer geeks that act like they're somehow physically intimidating or something.

whatever happen to the days in which you got into a brawl and then took each other out for a beer, Just so there were no hard feelings...

Saldiven wrote:Oh, really? One person attacked another person with a metal chair, and no police were called? Really?

The funny thing is, I don't care if you believe me. The people that were there (some of whom post on this very forum) know that it's true.

Saldiven wrote:I'll be completely blunt. If anyone were to physically assault me for any reason, the cops would be called, after the altercation were complete. The only way he could keep me from calling the cops would be to kill me.

Are you the kind of guy that picks fights or destroys anyone else's models? You probably don't need to worry about it.

Saldiven wrote:Haha...I have to say, I find it hilarious all the wargamer geeks that act like they're somehow physically intimidating or something.

Who's saying that? You sound insecure.

Alastergrimm wrote:whatever happen to the days in which you got into a brawl and then took each other out for a beer, Just so there were no hard feelings...

I don't know man. People are soft anymore.

I agree with ya Monster Rain, people are getting too soft.

I'm not acting like I'm some kind of bad ass or whatever, but I've been in a couple of scraps and it has never occurred to me (or any of the people that I was confronting) to call the police.

I punched my best friend in the face after he shot me in the leg with a blow dart (where's that drunken orkmoticon?) and the next day we carried on like nothing had happened.

nsdocholiday wrote:

shrike wrote:
-He proclaims "YOU JUST WON'T LISTEN" and ragequits, mumbling about how I cheat and how he'd destroy me next time. Every time I see him, he asks "Will you give me a game so I can destroy you?" Upon which point I say "1- you got tabled by me turn 3, 2- I doubt that you could "destroy" me as much as I destroyed you last game, and 3- I won't, because you cry about every rule I use and generally make it a waste of time and unenjoyable."

you good sir are my new hero

^^ consider me flattered.

Monster Rain wrote:I'm not acting like I'm some kind of bad ass or whatever, but I've been in a couple of scraps and it has never occurred to me (or any of the people that I was confronting) to call the police.

I punched my best friend in the face after he shot me in the leg with a blow dart (where's that drunken orkmoticon?) and the next day we carried on like nothing had happened.

that sounds like a truly mental night.
Oi! Oi! Yakface! pwease make a drunk and high-five orkmoticon! Pwease!

Sorry Pretre. No one seemed to listen.

Locking off-topic thread (and seriously people, err on the side of caution when it comes to punching someone; not only could you get in a heap of legal trouble, you never know how good a fighter the other guy is).