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In a purely academic sense then yes, you are correct. It is impossible for a charge to occur with in the open infiltration on turn 1. However, on the table top, I still hold that I fulfillthe more than 18" away requirement by standing right behind the line, and if I measure out a 6" move, with a 6" fleet, followed by a 6" charge, I can get into b2b contact, given that the .01 inches will almost certainly be lost, or be tossed aside as insignifcant as far as the game goes.

ChrisWWII wrote:In a purely academic sense then yes, you are correct. It is impossible for a charge to occur with in the open infiltration on turn 1. However, on the table top, I still hold that I fulfillthe more than 18" away requirement by standing right behind the line, and if I measure out a 6" move, with a 6" fleet, followed by a 6" charge, I can get into b2b contact, given that the .01 inches will almost certainly be lost, or be tossed aside as insignifcant as far as the game goes.

If you do that, then you have mis-measured at some point and charging turn one is in violation of the rules hence not insignificant.

Would you allow me to fire 48.5 inches with my lascannons at you? I'm sure that 0.5 is insignificant as far as the game goes.
When does it become significant? Can I move 6.1 or only 6.01?

Yeah - it would seem to require willful deception or stretching of the rules to do this ... measurements are not intended to be guesstimations ... while mismeasuring almost by definition occurs, when you KNOW Something can't happen by the rules, you should not do it or get away with it "by accident."

Said another way, if I measure 48.01" with a lascannon and we both go "oh in range" erroneously and are never the wiser, that "happens."

If I get off a charge when I by requirement MUST have been too far away for it to be legal, and I know this b/c I know the rules, missing my measurement by .01" is incorrect, b/c I know mathematically I cannot do it before even the first move occurs.

Agreed. When you know, mathematically, that it can't happen, you simply don't allow it. During the game the occasional mis-measure will happen, but when you're mathematically certain, there's no reason to allow a game-changing inaccuracy.

It's never negligable, especially when it comes to stealers gaining a 1st turn assault. If you know it to be a mathematical impossibility I don't care if you end up in b2b because human error said you can, it is impossible such that:
my $Distance = 18.00000 (ad infinitum) 01
while($Distance > 18){
print "Out of range";
$Distance =$Distance -.00(ad infinitum)01;
}
print "In range";


I know not everyone can understand code but trust me that code MUST print "Out of range" at least once before it prints "In range".
Also this is one argument I see for pre measuring. You can simply agree with your opponent "These models are 18.5 inches away from each other right?" Seeing the tape he will probably agree. If he tries to assault you next turn all you have to do is reinforce that "We both agreed you were over 18" away, it is mathematically impossible for you to charge."

Back on topic I had someone say my codex was wrong. He thought he could kill choosers of the slain but they aren't models they are just markers. Even after I showed him he said "Well they either FaQ'd it or your codex is a misprint".
Funny thing is I let him shoot them with his LR & when asked for their T & Sv I told him they didn't have any. He flipped and called over the TO, who not surprisingly ruled in my favor.

Heh.

I had someone try that with my ammo grotz for my SAG Mek once too.. He was out of range for the mek, and kept claiming the grots were attached to him as a unit, even after i showed him the bit in the codex that says they are nothing but markers:

Thanks for the clarification on the stealer rush, guys

We did check it with the rather busy TO and he ruled in the Nids favor, right or not, so its more something to bear in mind for next time.

I've never been treated badly by others in a tourney. I have brought illegal lists due to my lack of understanding of the unorganized mess that we all like to call Codex: Tau Empire, but thankfully I have been called out on that before anything important in Round 1 happens. However that still mars my conscience, along with the lack of knowledge that crisis suits can't jump after deepstriking (thank you for not making that obvious GW).

Ascalam wrote:Thanks for the clarification on the stealer rush, guys

We did check it with the rather busy TO and he ruled in the Nids favor, right or not, so its more something to bear in mind for next time.

Funny; but it does remind us that TOs are human too. He might have misunderstood the question- maybe thinking that the stealers had started out of LOS, or that the Necrons had gone first any for some inexplicable reason moved forward a little. Or he might have been thinking of an earlier edition; the 3rd and 4th edition rules weren't as clear about it being more than 18".

Kaotik wrote:

yermom wrote:I was cheated at an ard boy'z tournament a year ago. The guy effectively auto tabled me, it was illegal but the judges ruled in his favor.

Would this be at the finals? Would it have to do with your opponent lining the board edge so your models could not arrive? If so then the guy you played lives around here. The local group all thought it was hilarious. Although most of us did point out the douchebaggery inherent in the move. However you said "illegal", and I am pretty sure that while lame as hell, it was within the rules.

.

I believe that some of the problem here is that we have two different games being discussed here. I think Yermom/Nick said 'ardboyz and not necessarily the finals.

The incident Kaotik is referencing, I believe happend at the east coast finals, and didn't involve Yermom. (Disclaimer: Going from memory, it was a long day, with many rules calls. Only remember this one better from re-reading a recent email where we talked about it.)The problem arose because of some of the tables we were using, provide by GW, with the rounded corners. Familiar to anyone that's been at a GW GT or games day. The ork player lined the true edge of the board, going around the rounded area. The nid player thought the edge would start at the corner where the board would be if it was a true rectangle. By the time the Nid player got on his stealers, the orks had advanced far enough to turn the corner and seal off the edge. Without the stealers, it was pretty much game over.

His opponent did ask him about playing again, but the Nid player elected not to stay, and get an early start home. Something I think we can all respect, since many of the people coming for the finals drove a long ways to get there.

It sounded like what Yermom was describing was an error by his opponent and the TO in letting the Kommandos set up on the board in dawn of war, illegal since they are not troops.

Thanks for the details about the similar situation in the Finals, Mikhaila!

Kartelkopf gave us more details about his game, if you read the rest of the thread.

Wow... didn't mean to stir up so much drama. I honestly dont think the game kartelkopf is thinking of is the game we played. I'm completely 100% certain that it was the ard boyz semi finals. NOT the finals. It was also in New Jersey, not Phili. Also I did not "rudely" decline a real game afterwards. In fact what actually happened is that I was contemplating (to myself in my head) asking my opponent for a real game, but decided against it, as I wanted to go home early, and just wasn't up for it after somethign so demoralizing. I was never OFFERED a real game. In fact, while he was lining my board edge, my opponent made a snarky comment of "I didn't feel like playing anyway", which really pissed me off.

I have nothing against kartelkopf. I just think he is getting confused between games here.

Yermom, you say that your opponent lined "your" board edge?

That does sound like a totally different game than the one Kartelkopf's talking about- in his, he lined the short table edge/s to block Outflanking Genestealers.

He lined my long 72" edge. Also I only had 2 units of 5 stealers, so even if had used his kommandos out flanking to cover the side edges, the effects would be relatively small in comparison.

yea... having seen and played against yermoms list, I don't think that was the game... AND after talking to the judge for that event at a later event...

You just happened to have a similar game... unless your opponent was a little skinny indian kid :p

Lol. These are all so funny!

Worst thing was this guy i was playing at a local tourney (which i won) when he lost he started to thrw his stuff on the ground and literally, cried like a two year old with a tantrum. Then when he got up., he kicked the table, and when he reached to grab his foot he smacked his dumb ass face on the table...lol

Double elimination fantasy tourney, 4 players left and winners played eachother for 1st and 2nd place with the losers playing for 3rd and 4th. The guy I played haden't lost once untill we played and we haden't had any tension or anything it was a nice friendly game, when I beat him he was so mad that he'd lost (mind you he wasen't out of the tournament) that he actually picked up my converted Saurus Lord on a Carnosaur which was probably the best model I've ever painted. Threw it on the ground and stomped on it, he only stopped when I socked him in the face. The only thing that stopped me from kicking his was the other players.

He was emmediatly disqualified from the tourney, kicked out of the gaming club and refused service at the store (the next closest store was 3 hours away). I played the already eliminated runner up (who should have gotten 5th) and he beat me so I came in 4th and didn't get a prize but the store did allow me to get anything I wanted up to the same value as my carnosaur lord for free.

Interesting that table edge lining is so common now. I blame the infamous game. Wasn't the MGS?

ChrisWWII wrote:In a purely academic sense then yes, you are correct. It is impossible for a charge to occur with in the open infiltration on turn 1. However, on the table top, I still hold that I fulfillthe more than 18" away requirement by standing right behind the line, and if I measure out a 6" move, with a 6" fleet, followed by a 6" charge, I can get into b2b contact, given that the .01 inches will almost certainly be lost, or be tossed aside as insignifcant as far as the game goes.

Ehhh I have used it in 1000 point games with cc scouts, infiltrate 18 away followed by a scout move than, all dependent on going first of course, move fleet assault. I do run Shrike though this is still technically impossible with non-fleeting scouts as you should be 18.01 inches away at least thats how I interpret it.

LegendJRG wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:In a purely academic sense then yes, you are correct. It is impossible for a charge to occur with in the open infiltration on turn 1. However, on the table top, I still hold that I fulfillthe more than 18" away requirement by standing right behind the line, and if I measure out a 6" move, with a 6" fleet, followed by a 6" charge, I can get into b2b contact, given that the .01 inches will almost certainly be lost, or be tossed aside as insignifcant as far as the game goes.

Ehhh I have used it in 1000 point games with cc scouts, infiltrate 18 away followed by a scout move than, all dependent on going first of course, move fleet assault. I do run Shrike though this is still technically impossible with non-fleeting scouts as you should be 18.01 inches away at least thats how I interpret it.

There is a reason for the spesification of over 18" away, it is to disallow these easy first turn assaults.

that he actually picked up my converted Saurus Lord on a Carnosaur which was probably the best model I've ever painted. Threw it on the ground and stomped on it

I find these kind of posts so hard to believe, do people like this actually exist? Have they not been weeded out by evolution by now? Also, the sanctions these alleged people have gotten afterwards are usually very light. Nobody thought about making him pay for damages (including paint-time) and just keep his army as hostage if he didn't comply? Why did people stop you when you beat him? I just can't see this kind of behavior getting off that easy in any tournament I've attended.

pretre wrote:Interesting that table edge lining is so common now. I blame the infamous game. Wasn't the MGS?

I for one am amazed it happened at two different locations with the same armies. I am also sorry about the confusion since I mistook the two games. My apologies to all involved. Same tournament, same situation, same armies....two cities. Lottery level odds there.

It's rather cool, though, Kaotik - means we were all in the right, haha.

LegendJRG wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:In a purely academic sense then yes, you are correct. It is impossible for a charge to occur with in the open infiltration on turn 1. However, on the table top, I still hold that I fulfillthe more than 18" away requirement by standing right behind the line, and if I measure out a 6" move, with a 6" fleet, followed by a 6" charge, I can get into b2b contact, given that the .01 inches will almost certainly be lost, or be tossed aside as insignifcant as far as the game goes.

Ehhh I have used it in 1000 point games with cc scouts, infiltrate 18 away followed by a scout move than, all dependent on going first of course, move fleet assault. I do run Shrike though this is still technically impossible with non-fleeting scouts as you should be 18.01 inches away at least thats how I interpret it.

Infiltrate, scout (no closer than 12.01), move, fleet, assault is legal. You're right that Infiltrate (18.01 or 12.01), move, assault is illegal and not even likely for scouts.

pretre wrote:

LegendJRG wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:In a purely academic sense then yes, you are correct. It is impossible for a charge to occur with in the open infiltration on turn 1. However, on the table top, I still hold that I fulfillthe more than 18" away requirement by standing right behind the line, and if I measure out a 6" move, with a 6" fleet, followed by a 6" charge, I can get into b2b contact, given that the .01 inches will almost certainly be lost, or be tossed aside as insignifcant as far as the game goes.

Ehhh I have used it in 1000 point games with cc scouts, infiltrate 18 away followed by a scout move than, all dependent on going first of course, move fleet assault. I do run Shrike though this is still technically impossible with non-fleeting scouts as you should be 18.01 inches away at least thats how I interpret it.

Infiltrate, scout (no closer than 12.01), move, fleet, assault is legal. You're right that Infiltrate (18.01 or 12.01), move, assault is illegal and not even likely for scouts.

Unless they are scout bikers : )

This didn't happen at a tournament, but felt like it's worth mentioning...

I game at the local GW store in NY occasionally, but haven't been back in sometime due to family obligations (Yay for parenthood!). Anyways, I've noticed this one person there, who while watching a game, would come out and blurt some comment on something that happened, usually if it's something that he feels contradicts the rules. In this case, (since it was my game that he commented on), he said that units in a vehicle don't need to take a Pinning check if the vehicle is destroyed. I tell him that he's incorrect, and that it's in the rulebook. Guy walks off, scratches his head, and thumbs through a rulebook. Don't hear from him for the rest of the day.

So days go by, and I'm playing another person, and he butts in again, showing me and my opponent something out of the codex. However this time, he was correct. So I thought "Okay, maybe this guy isn't all hot air afterall". So later on, during the same game, I ask him a question on something (which I thought was general knowledge, since the question was out of the BRB). He shrugs, without so much as a comment, and walks away...

Now, maybe this story better qualifies as a "TFG Story", but something about people who watch and constantly comment on other people's games really gets to me. It would be one thing if he knew what he was talking about, and if he managed to articulate himself without sounding like a total nimrod, but this one person's attitude and demeanor just totally screams out "TFG-type" characteristics.

Oh well... /rant.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:This didn't happen at a tournament, but felt like it's worth mentioning...

Got really hopeful here for a second that something wacky was about to happen, like he comes back a week later to prove you wrong and hasn't slept since that original game researching how he was right. Just run of the mill backseat driver though.

I have nothing to compare with these...but I will add my own little annoying stories...

Went to one tournament...a guy walked in and asked what everyone was running...then after hearing what was being run he then decided which army he was going to run...

At another tournament, waited an hour and a half for a guy to show up...and this same guy complained during another tournament about having to wait for a game of my own to conclude...

One guy told me in the middle of a tournie that his unit was in area terrain and got a cover save, although we had never discussed it he got his way...and the terrain in question was a wall and a barren floor and I had an unobscured view of all of his models...

Worst one was a tournie where my friend and I showed up to play...my friend was asked to be judge, so he agreed...then when it was found we had an odd number of players, he was asked to play and be judge. He was not eligible for the prize, just a filler.

So we end up playing one another the second round. I wind up disagreeing with him on like 4 different rulez, ask the storeowner to call it, and win 3 of the 4 decisions.

I wind up 2nd or 3rd, and my friend was accused of throwing his game with me so I could move up in the rankings...excuse me, but didn't you notice half of our game was arguing over the rules? Obviously he wasn't throwing anything!

Hi

Perhaps the most unfortunate misunderstanding that I have ever had in a tournament occurred not too long ago. I still don't know what to think of what occurred in terms of "blame."

It was day two of an event and my opponent and I were in decent contention. I was tired, and hungover, and my lower back troubles were acting up something fierce. If you have every had your entire midsection in pain for multiple reasons, you can sympathize.

At the start of the game, we discussed terrain features, and we agreed that one piece in particular (right in the middle of the board) would be impassible for "vehicles". When I hear that term, I assume that refers to the section of the rulebook that talks about units with armour values. My opponent assumes that the unit type "bike" is included with the term vehicle.

EDIT: I should add that terrain piece was a slightly evelated piece of solid, flat landing pad. When my opponent entered it, I asked if he should be rolling for DT to "climb up" it and he said "No" it wasn't difficult to enter. This was his turn immediately prior to my bikes entering.

At the critical turning moment of the game, my bikes intend to enter this terrain piece and he tells me that we had agreed that vehicles could not enter. I told him that bikes aren't "vehicles" as defined in the rules. I offered to either 4+ for how it would work or to call over a judge to get a ruling on what is meant by "vehicle" in 40K. We went with the former, and I rolled a 6, had my way, and won the game handily.

Things didn't get ugly between us at the game table or afterward, but it was the topic of discussion at our various lunch tables. My compatriots felt I was in the right... but I am sure my opponent's buddies felt the same. I guess what bugs me is that we "did the right thing" by discussing terrain right off the bat, but we still experienced a serious communication failure, that resulted in what can't help but be a experience-spoiling result for my opponent. Of course, had the d6 roll gone the other way, I would have been the one left scrambling.

Cheers,
Nate

FLGS tournament, I'm running an Epi/close combat/Tally list. Make it to the last round, other guy is a SUPER nice guy with a Nid/big bug horde. Rushes his terms, I get tally...then watch as my Nurglings proceed to eat every big bug he has in his army. I try to not demolish his list but you simply 'cannot' charge when something moves in front of you and is in obvious charge range. Given the look on his face and how nice the dude was, probably the worst thing I've ever done in a tournament. Felt bad man.

AgeOfEgos wrote:FLGS tournament, I'm running an Epi/close combat/Tally list. Make it to the last round, other guy is a SUPER nice guy with a Nid/big bug horde. Rushes his terms, I get tally...then watch as my Nurglings proceed to eat every big bug he has in his army. I try to not demolish his list but you simply 'cannot' charge when something moves in front of you and is in obvious charge range. Given the look on his face and how nice the dude was, probably the worst thing I've ever done in a tournament. Felt bad man.

Along those lines... I tabled a necron player back in 3rd ed before he even got a turn...

It was escalation... and I ran speed freaks.

He bunched his necron warriors up...

Turn 1, my looted leman russ rolls on, hits all of them one shot... they almost all die, he fails his check falls of the table.... phases out then and there....

We played the rest of the game out after that for fun...