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I declare Lady Luck to be on the winner's side, because that is what it takes to win 100 vs 100 in a controlled environment.

Why does everyone assume the IG are untrained meat shields?

In order to even attempt to enter the Guard, you have to be a serving member of the PDF and then show extreme promise. When the drafts to the Guard are held, the best members of the Planetary Defense Force compete to be chosen. The best are then taken into the regiments and given far, far better training in weapons, combat techniques and far more.

Essentially, the Guard are the Marines, Commandos or Special Forces of the Imperium. And there's billions of them.

The modern day army is screwed.

ChrisWWII wrote:Alright, so that's 3 rifle platoons, and one heavy weapons platoon for the US Army. According to wikipedia, each rifle platton consists of a Platoon HQ (essentially a PCS), 3 Rifle Squads, and a Heavy Weapons Squad. I personally believe something like this IG Infantry Company would be equal to that. As a more Russian style army, the IG is concentrating all its heavy weapons in squads under central command, instead of leaving them more dispersed amongst the men.

We'll assume that they're bringing weapons suited to fighting other infantry, so machine guns, mortars, and some light AT (AT4s or the similar) for the US Army, and heavy bolters, autocannons and missile launchers for the IG. I personally think that leaves us about equal.

If these 2 forces were to face each other in the field, I'd predict stalemate with victory eventually going to the IG. With heavy weapons, and decent leadership on both sides, each side would be reduced to firign at the other from foxholes or other such fixed position, essentially a war of attrition, and this favors the IG. With the faith and determination of zealots on their side (not to mention Commissars) their morale would take longer to break.

Dont IG have mortars too? and I wouldnt put it past them to bring in some special weapons like grenade launchers and plasma guns (although the last one is kinda overkill). The commanding officier might also have a bolt pistol in any case.

The Imperium would win because if the guard didn't get the job done Space marines would.

Come on guys, its just 100 against 100! Either 100 Guard or 100 Modern Soldiers! This should be a poll.

Conservationist wrote:Come on guys, its just 100 against 100! Either 100 Guard or 100 Modern Soldiers! This should be a poll.

Unfortunately it's so much more complicated than that. Looking at it that way is just like saying, '2000 points of Tau or 2000 points of IG, who would win?!?' There are lots of questions. Are those 100 Guardsmen new recruits, or are they harened Veterans? Are they Mechanized Infantry of horde? Do they have intrinsic support? Can they call for outside support? All these questions have to be answered before you can analyze the original question.

DKOK would kill everything. Read their fluff.

Also, things like:
"In game lasguns shoot 12", which is 21 meters/assualt rifles must then shoot 500"

Game
Balance

ChrisWWII wrote:

Conservationist wrote:Come on guys, its just 100 against 100! Either 100 Guard or 100 Modern Soldiers! This should be a poll.

Unfortunately it's so much more complicated than that. Looking at it that way is just like saying, '2000 points of Tau or 2000 points of IG, who would win?!?' There are lots of questions. Are those 100 Guardsmen new recruits, or are they harened Veterans? Are they Mechanized Infantry of horde? Do they have intrinsic support? Can they call for outside support? All these questions have to be answered before you can analyze the original question.

They could also be stormtroopers or Ogryns too. or Ratlings with Cameocloaks hidden in jungles. or 100 Marbos ;D

Miraclefish wrote:Why does everyone assume the IG are untrained meat shields?

In order to even attempt to enter the Guard, you have to be a serving member of the PDF and then show extreme promise. When the drafts to the Guard are held, the best members of the Planetary Defense Force compete to be chosen. The best are then taken into the regiments and given far, far better training in weapons, combat techniques and far more.

Essentially, the Guard are the Marines, Commandos or Special Forces of the Imperium. And there's billions of them.

The modern day army is screwed.

Thats sounds like you're confusing Space Marines with the IG TBH. Read Fifteen Hours, (the book's title is a reference to the average lifespan of a Guardsman) it's about a bunch of farmboys conscripted into Guardsmen. I would guess Sergeants would generally be ex-PDF forces or some-such, but there is very few fluff to support your "IG are elite forces" theory, which everything GW says seems to indicate that it is the Space Marines' role as the surgical blade, and that the IG act as the Hammer of the Imperium, slow, un-wieldy, but really big and really powerful.

You don't compete to join the Guard, you don't try to enter (often means your death if you are a Guardsmen), you're forced into it as a civilian. (Depends on the IG planet I suppose, but I assume we're using Cadians as the baseline IG here)

It's the Space Marines that hold great trials for competing warriors to fight for the chance to join the Chapter as the best of the best.

Training for Guardsmen vary alot. All Vostroyian firstborne sons are automatically conscripted regardless of heritage, training, and accomplishments. Cadians, however, are pretty much born with a lasgun shoved into their hands. Catachans' homeworld basically forces them to be expert jungle fighters, or become food. The other regiments arn't that much better off, with only a select few having "normal" training standards (if there is one).

Chapter Master Aeneas wrote:Im in college and I started the discussion started by maybe many IG fans is what would happen if they came here my friend says that 100 modern soilders v 100 guardsman in an open field that the imperial guard would have no significant advantage.

Glancing quickly through the thread I noticed that no one mentioned the psychological/morale aspect. You see IG troops have their lasers as well as something called... plasma guns - how many modern soldiers have been under laser fire?

I mean, we tend to have this modern mindset and we can imagine stuff like that, but... a proper analogy in 100 vs 100 situation on a psycholgical level might be something like troops of Hernan Cortez using gunpowder weapons and horses against the primitive armament of the aztecs in the 1500's. Soldier with a modern mindset would probably surrender in such a isolated situation (no reinforcements nearby etc.).

One could of course argue, in addition to the points made, that if the troops go to ground and both sides have weapons capable of hurting each other, IG would eventually win the shooting war: they have more ammo as a standard issue (lasguns 300+ vs. if I recall correctly, about 180 carried by a single U.S. soldier). Most shots fired in battle situations miss, after all. On the other hand, as stated by someone, average modern military might be better equipped with support weapons usable in man vs man conflicts than the average representation of the IG. I'm not totally sure if there is a point, though. IG belongs to a different realm, the realm of scifi.

Expanding the scenario to air support etc. is pointless, as stated by several posters - Imperial spaceships would simply obliterate everything they like from the orbit in a full-scale conflict. Earth governments would probably surrender in a situation where spaceships start to appear and communicate with them. On the other hand, if 100 isolated IG personnel suddenly ended up on modern earth, any modern army could decimate them if the need arose. So, it's either a rather one-sided full scale conflict or no full scale conflict.

There was a Cracked article about the psychological aspects of killing people. According to it, even trained soldiers find it hard to actually consciously attempt to kill another human being, sometimes subconsciously missing the target and chalking it up as an accident. IG, however, likely wont have this problem. Regimental Commissars and the general imperial indoctrination would have eliminated any hesitation on their part: either that guy dies or I die, either by him shooting me or my officer shooting me. They're also fearless by our standards. When you're asked to face a 20 foot tall monstrous alien that can splatter your innards on the ground like silly putty or face the incarnation of rage on largely a daily basis, you're not gonna fear a regular human armed with a dated rifle.

Elector wrote:You don't compete to join the Guard, you don't try to enter (often means your death if you are a Guardsmen), you're forced into it as a civilian. (Depends on the IG planet I suppose, but I assume we're using Cadians as the baseline IG here)

If we're using Cadians as the baseline, then what you stated previously (about the low quality of IG conscription) is completely untrue. On Cadia military service is mandatory and from the age of 10 everybody trains to 'conscription' level competency. Live ammo, field exercises, wargames, the works.

PAge 8 of the IG Codex backs up that the IG are the elite of each planets PDF. Mass COnscription, the kind we saw in 15 Hours is the exception rather than the rule.

That's what they want you to believe.

How many elites need to be driven to battle by commissars.

Kilkrazy wrote:That's what they want you to believe.

How many elites need to be driven to battle by commissars.

Yeah...you're misunderstanding the purpose of commissars.

They're not there to 'drive the Guardsmen into battle'.
They're there to ensure that orders are obeyed and to serve as a 'rallying cry' for the Guard if morale is broken.

Plus: I'm sure if we put special operations personnel on Cadia during the 13th Black Crusade, there'd be a high likelihood they'd have froze when confronted with hordes of angry mutants and zombies...

And as an aside: the Cadians don't use 'em
It's actually considered an insult for a Cadian regiment to have a Commissar attached to it, since the role of Commissar is able to be filled by the Captains/Lieutenants of the regiment, who receive commissariat training in how to handle things like psykers, etc.

Kilkrazy wrote:That's what they want you to believe.

How many elites need to be driven to battle by commissars.

How many elites need to fight 20 foot tall daemons, or a horde of psychotic green skinned aliens on a common basis? Note, that the elites of the Imperium (Space Marines, Storm Troopers, Sororitas) don't need Commissars.

That and what Kanluwen said. Commissars are disciplinary officer, the Guard charge into battle when they're ordered. Commissars are there to keep the chain of command, and to ensure loyalty to the Imperium. That's the official fluff reason for their existence.

So we are comparing 40k tecnology against 2k?

We spent all our existence finding new and better ways to kill each other, we learn from the past.

40k has the advantage, their technology is simply better, unlimited rounds, better protection, able to keep a steady hail of fire without the weapon overheating or malfunctioning

Don't compare modern assault rifles to lasguns, can you compare a musket to a m16?

Man portable weapons capable of destroying the cover you are hiding with longer range and accuracy.

The longbowman was extremely trained, since he was a child, he was a elite troop, do you pit 100 of them against 100 modern soldiers? and its only 1000 years difference, not 38000.

If the bowmen had desent cover I recon they would do a fair amount of damage due to being able to fire with out LoS

Elector wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:Why does everyone assume the IG are untrained meat shields?

In order to even attempt to enter the Guard, you have to be a serving member of the PDF and then show extreme promise. When the drafts to the Guard are held, the best members of the Planetary Defense Force compete to be chosen. The best are then taken into the regiments and given far, far better training in weapons, combat techniques and far more.

Essentially, the Guard are the Marines, Commandos or Special Forces of the Imperium. And there's billions of them.

The modern day army is screwed.

Thats sounds like you're confusing Space Marines with the IG TBH. Read Fifteen Hours, (the book's title is a reference to the average lifespan of a Guardsman) it's about a bunch of farmboys conscripted into Guardsmen. I would guess Sergeants would generally be ex-PDF forces or some-such, but there is very few fluff to support your "IG are elite forces" theory, which everything GW says seems to indicate that it is the Space Marines' role as the surgical blade, and that the IG act as the Hammer of the Imperium, slow, un-wieldy, but really big and really powerful.

You don't compete to join the Guard, you don't try to enter (often means your death if you are a Guardsmen), you're forced into it as a civilian. (Depends on the IG planet I suppose, but I assume we're using Cadians as the baseline IG here)

It's the Space Marines that hold great trials for competing warriors to fight for the chance to join the Chapter as the best of the best.

Sorry but you're incorrect. All canon sources point to the Guard being the elite of the PDF. World provide anything up to 25,000,000 Guardsmen a year as part of their tithes - so the numbers are not a problem. There is no need for mass enforced foundings.

The PDF are looked down to by the better trained, better paid and better equipped guard. And countless stories have references to ex-PDF soldiers who've been accepted into the Guard.

The Space Marines are just that but to the Nth degree.

Ribon Fox wrote:If the bowmen had desent cover I recon they would do a far amount of damage due to being able to fire with out LoS

Forgetting the fact that they need to see to aim, they need to fire standing, and a range of 120 yards, kevlar would stop most of the arrows, and when they reached the bowman lines......ouch...

Elector wrote:

Miraclefish wrote:Why does everyone assume the IG are untrained meat shields?

In order to even attempt to enter the Guard, you have to be a serving member of the PDF and then show extreme promise. When the drafts to the Guard are held, the best members of the Planetary Defense Force compete to be chosen. The best are then taken into the regiments and given far, far better training in weapons, combat techniques and far more.

Essentially, the Guard are the Marines, Commandos or Special Forces of the Imperium. And there's billions of them.

The modern day army is screwed.

Thats sounds like you're confusing Space Marines with the IG TBH. Read Fifteen Hours, (the book's title is a reference to the average lifespan of a Guardsman) it's about a bunch of farmboys conscripted into Guardsmen. I would guess Sergeants would generally be ex-PDF forces or some-such, but there is very few fluff to support your "IG are elite forces" theory, which everything GW says seems to indicate that it is the Space Marines' role as the surgical blade, and that the IG act as the Hammer of the Imperium, slow, un-wieldy, but really big and really powerful.

Depends on the planet the regiment is raised from. The Tanith First was raised from the ranks of the PDF, not 'conscripted'.

Oh. And the "Fifteen Hours" wasn't a reference to 'the average lifespan of a Guardsman'.
It was a reference to 'the average lifespan of a replacement Guardsman' dropped into a world overrun by Orks, with little to no supplies and a command chain that goes out of their way to ignore the soldiers in the trenches.

You don't compete to join the Guard, you don't try to enter (often means your death if you are a Guardsmen), you're forced into it as a civilian. (Depends on the IG planet I suppose, but I assume we're using Cadians as the baseline IG here)

Again: incorrect.
When a planet does a "Founding", it's all PDF being rerouted into the Guard, but they still have to reach a certain number of men for that Founding.
If they don't reach that number from the PDF(without feasibly leaving the planet undefended), they open up volunteer positions.
If they don't reach that number from there?
Then yes, they do start conscripting people.

But you're really missing the point that most Imperial citizens? They'll never leave their homeworld. The Guard is a chance for glory and fame and all kinds of adventure!
At least that's what the recruiting ads say

It's the Space Marines that hold great trials for competing warriors to fight for the chance to join the Chapter as the best of the best.

Ehhhh...yes/no.
The Space Wolves hold no "great trials". They just monitor the tribes on Fenris and pick who they want, take 'em and go.

And they're not the only ones who do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SCYTHE9 wrote:

Ribon Fox wrote:If the bowmen had desent cover I recon they would do a far amount of damage due to being able to fire with out LoS

Forgetting the fact that they need to see to aim, they need to fire standing, and a range of 120 yards, kevlar would stop most of the arrows, and when they reached the bowman lines......ouch...

Uh, they don't actually need to see to aim.

Part of what made the longbow so devastating was volley fire, where they could arc it over the walls of fortifications or infantry in front of them.

Add to it that those longbowmen likely have short swords, I'd say it would be an 'ouch' for the guys who get that close to them Kevlar and modern bulletproof vests don't really do much against blades.

Yeah, bullerproof vests don't do much against a knife. I mean the trauma plates might stop the blade, but not the Kevlar. If the archers had time to volley fire, and had cover against the guns they'd bring down no small number of soldiers.

Matters on which guardsmen we are talking about. If it is Cadians. goodbye U.S. Military. The Cadians are trained in combat like the US. Its just that the Cadians are all very intelligent in war and that is what they were made for.

But heres one guardsmen group that would lose.... sorry can't find one.

The US military may have indiviual skills but the guardsmen have superior weapons and training and are more experinced. The Guard Commanders would just send in an Assassin Guild to kill the entire military commanding branch.

Forgetting the fact that they need to see to aim, they need to fire standing, and a range of 120 yards, kevlar would stop most of the arrows, and when they reached the bowman lines......ouch...

SCYTHE9 wrote:

Forgetting the fact that they need to see to aim, they need to fire standing, and a range of 120 yards, kevlar would stop most of the arrows, and when they reached the bowman lines......ouch...

Uh, they don't actually need to see to aim.

Part of what made the longbow so devastating was volley fire, where they could arc it over the walls of fortifications or infantry in front of them.

Add to it that those longbowmen likely have short swords, I'd say it would be an 'ouch' for the guys who get that close to them Kevlar and modern bulletproof vests don't really do much against blades.

so now they have a castle?

It doesn't have to be a castle. They'd fire from behind log revetments, cavalry spikes, pavises, etc. Point is: they don't need to see the enemy to be effective.

Ok our troops have tanks. I believe its equal grounds

Because you're trying to make a point from when you began with a ridiculous statement.

so They volley fire at massed infantry, 100 dudes is not massed infantry.

And I didn't say it was. But with how fireteam discipline is today, volleys would actually be quite effective at night.

Kevlar doesn't stop blades, do you play COD is it? [A vest capable of stopping projectiles over the speed of sound cannot stop a short sword? i concede blunt trauma but penetration?

Are you dense?
There's a reason why they're trying so hard to make better body armor for soldiers and police officers that can stop fragmentation grenades and knives/blunt instruments better. Combat knives can cut right through kevlar, since kevlar is a fabric designed to work with ceramic trauma plates to absorb the impact of a propelled object, not something shoved right into it at close range.

And again COD, a guy charging me with a short sword and me with a assault rifle.....do you really believe the short sword wins?

If you're going to keep referencing COD, I'll point you to the fact that I can kill someone with a knife in one shot while a .50 can take 3 shots.

Small burst from the hip...

Yes, because firing an assault rifle from the hip--even "small bursts" guarantees you 100% accuracy.

And will totally work when you're at close quarters! It's not like that's never been done or is why they have sidearms...

Well laser weapons in most scifi settings are pretty inferior to a modern day assault rifle in most ways (star trek, starwars) so...

mrsmith wrote:Well laser weapons in most scifi settings are pretty inferior to a modern day assault rifle in most ways (star trek, starwars) so...

Those aren't lasers. Those are not concentrated. Into a focused beam of light that basically are pure energy untampered. And plus this is 40k All weapons are ridiciously powerful even a las pistol is dangerous.

They don't need to see the enemy to be efective? Ok so how do they know here to fire.

like i said, blunt trauma can happen, but here take a look at the first level of protection

http://www.ehow.com/about_5501422_different-levels-protection-bulletproof-vests.html

Yes you can, coming from behind and slashing across the throat, of stabbing up towards the heart. But it works with the element of surprise.

small burst fire from the hip from 50 soldiers, i'm assuming they are on open field, where the bowman were more efective, so yes 150 shots every 1 second.

side arms are not for CC, thats why modern rifles are shorter, i agree that longer barrels aren't good in close quarters.

Ok this is getting silly , longbows and shortswords vs. assault rifles in CQB, 1shot knife kills when a .50 cal something takes 3 hits, sounds like alot of arm chair generals, and computer gamer experiance.

I am in the U.S. army and have been in real CQB against real people, and seen ( through Binos) 12.7mm hits and the purple haze that follows, and if you can show me a human that can take 3 12.7mm hits to any other parts of their bodies other than their pinkies and piggy-toes I will be shocked, also I would be overjoyed to face an 100 enemies armed with longbows anytime with a 100 of my fellow paratroopers armed with modern weapons...lol.

I carried a tomahawk for last ditch CQ but I also always made a point of putting a fresh mag in my M4 whenever I was in doubt to my rounds, and no we don't "shoot from the hip" its a tight controlled 3 round burst or semi auto double tap that gets the job done, even when your target is 10 feet away inside a dark qualot and waiting with a sks and a spike bayonet.

so shortsword vs. a locked and loaded M4 equals a dead shortswordsman, but I thought this thread was about 100 IG vs. 100 modern troops...ohwell