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im2randomghgh wrote:

hemingway wrote:IG wins. Better weapons, better tech and a lifetime of nothing but war.

,,,the life time of war does NOT apply to ever single guardsman ever to don a uniform, if that's what you mean.

And water and dirt have almost no effect on dragonskin, it is only heat that is able to affect the adhesive holding the scales in place.

And also, If were comparing it to flak armour, then we have to have both of the same type: either we consider both full-body, or both vest.

If the dragonskin were to be applied to a full body suit, it would offer MUCH more protection, considering that the reason it is so amazing is that it spreads the kinetic energy, this effect would be amplified (squared rather than multiplied) for every inch more that it covers.

As to the railrifles, the logistics would be the easy part. All you need are well shaped magnetic bullets, as opposed to bullets filled with explosive powder, which also frees up more room for ammunition.

Dragonskin might, keyword, might, be more effective against kinetic weapons than standard IG flak armor. But pound for pound, flak armor is the better armor.

The energy required for railrifle to be an effective weapon and be man portable requires technology we don't have.

im2randomghgh wrote:

,,,the life time of war does NOT apply to ever single guardsman ever to don a uniform, if that's what you mean.

And water and dirt have almost no effect on dragonskin, it is only heat that is able to affect the adhesive holding the scales in place.

And also, If were comparing it to flak armour, then we have to have both of the same type: either we consider both full-body, or both vest.

If the dragonskin were to be applied to a full body suit, it would offer MUCH more protection, considering that the reason it is so amazing is that it spreads the kinetic energy, this effect would be amplified (squared rather than multiplied) for every inch more that it covers.

As to the railrifles, the logistics would be the easy part. All you need are well shaped magnetic bullets, as opposed to bullets filled with explosive powder, which also frees up more room for ammunition.

Why are you still thinking that we would win against the Imeprium in all out Crusade?

im2randomghgh wrote:And water and dirt have almost no effect on dragonskin, it is only heat that is able to affect the adhesive holding the scales in place.

Results of various tests done by the US Army:

Half of all tested vests failed their tests, with one fourth of all bullets fully penetrating them in all but very low temperature with a dry vest. Oil, diesel fuel/gasoline, water, dirt, temperature, etc all negatively effected the vests, making them less useful for a real combat situation. To top it off,Dragonskin armor is twice as heavy as interceptor armor (and about three times as heavy as flak armor). In fact, even at ambient temperature in a dry environment with a completely clean vest, it did not reliably block even two bullets per vest.

Conclusion: Dragon Skin does not meet required protection standards for Soldier use.

im2randomghgh wrote:

hemingway wrote:IG wins. Better weapons, better tech and a lifetime of nothing but war.

,,,the life time of war does NOT apply to ever single guardsman ever to don a uniform, if that's what you mean.

And water and dirt have almost no effect on dragonskin, it is only heat that is able to affect the adhesive holding the scales in place.

And also, If were comparing it to flak armour, then we have to have both of the same type: either we consider both full-body, or both vest.

If the dragonskin were to be applied to a full body suit, it would offer MUCH more protection, considering that the reason it is so amazing is that it spreads the kinetic energy, this effect would be amplified (squared rather than multiplied) for every inch more that it covers.

As to the railrifles, the logistics would be the easy part. All you need are well shaped magnetic bullets, as opposed to bullets filled with explosive powder, which also frees up more room for ammunition.

Water and dirt DO have an effect on its protectiveness, its one of the main reasons it will never be adopted in its current form, because it's too damn unreliable.

If you were to apply it to a whole suit, you would collapse, never be able to move without help. To move even with extra strength you would have to separate the surfaces into chest, fore arms, greaves etc.... meaning each part can only absorb the impact that hits it and the force is not spread over the whole body. For that, you would need to manufacture a whole body suit with no joints, which even then probably wouldn't work as the human body is not a constant flat surface. It would be too heavy, and you would have no joints to even try to move.

Its not the ammunition, its the power source. The experimental rail-cannon needs a large building to power it, only a large battleship has the room for a generator right now. Are you saying that this massive machine will be reduced to infantry portable in ten years? Just no, not going to happen. And my point still stands. Is it available now? No not even close.

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

hemingway wrote:IG wins. Better weapons, better tech and a lifetime of nothing but war.

,,,the life time of war does NOT apply to ever single guardsman ever to don a uniform, if that's what you mean.

And water and dirt have almost no effect on dragonskin, it is only heat that is able to affect the adhesive holding the scales in place.

And also, If were comparing it to flak armour, then we have to have both of the same type: either we consider both full-body, or both vest.

If the dragonskin were to be applied to a full body suit, it would offer MUCH more protection, considering that the reason it is so amazing is that it spreads the kinetic energy, this effect would be amplified (squared rather than multiplied) for every inch more that it covers.

As to the railrifles, the logistics would be the easy part. All you need are well shaped magnetic bullets, as opposed to bullets filled with explosive powder, which also frees up more room for ammunition.

Water and dirt DO have an effect on its protectiveness, its one of the main reasons it will never be adopted in its current form, because it's too damn unreliable.

If you were to apply it to a whole suit, you would collapse, never be able to move without help. To move even with extra strength you would have to separate the surfaces into chest, fore arms, greaves etc.... meaning each part can only absorb the impact that hits it and the force is not spread over the whole body. For that, you would need to manufacture a whole body suit with no joints, which even then probably wouldn't work as the human body is not a constant flat surface. It would be too heavy, and you would have no joints to even try to move.

Its not the ammunition, its the power source. The experimental rail-cannon needs a large building to power it, only a large battleship has the room for a generator right now. Are you saying that this massive machine will be reduced to infantry portable in ten years? Just no, not going to happen. And my point still stands. Is it available now? No not even close.

On the topic of joints at least, it's not a problem. the scales move when you do (shocker).

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

hemingway wrote:IG wins. Better weapons, better tech and a lifetime of nothing but war.

,,,the life time of war does NOT apply to ever single guardsman ever to don a uniform, if that's what you mean.

And water and dirt have almost no effect on dragonskin, it is only heat that is able to affect the adhesive holding the scales in place.

And also, If were comparing it to flak armour, then we have to have both of the same type: either we consider both full-body, or both vest.

If the dragonskin were to be applied to a full body suit, it would offer MUCH more protection, considering that the reason it is so amazing is that it spreads the kinetic energy, this effect would be amplified (squared rather than multiplied) for every inch more that it covers.

As to the railrifles, the logistics would be the easy part. All you need are well shaped magnetic bullets, as opposed to bullets filled with explosive powder, which also frees up more room for ammunition.

Water and dirt DO have an effect on its protectiveness, its one of the main reasons it will never be adopted in its current form, because it's too damn unreliable.

If you were to apply it to a whole suit, you would collapse, never be able to move without help. To move even with extra strength you would have to separate the surfaces into chest, fore arms, greaves etc.... meaning each part can only absorb the impact that hits it and the force is not spread over the whole body. For that, you would need to manufacture a whole body suit with no joints, which even then probably wouldn't work as the human body is not a constant flat surface. It would be too heavy, and you would have no joints to even try to move.

Its not the ammunition, its the power source. The experimental rail-cannon needs a large building to power it, only a large battleship has the room for a generator right now. Are you saying that this massive machine will be reduced to infantry portable in ten years? Just no, not going to happen. And my point still stands. Is it available now? No not even close.

On the topic of joints at least, it's not a problem. the scales move when you do (shocker).

It's a very heavy and thick suit of titanium, rigid and definitely not flexible. Therefore yes, not having joints would be a MASSIVE problem. What's the point in armour if you can't move in it?

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

hemingway wrote:IG wins. Better weapons, better tech and a lifetime of nothing but war.

,,,the life time of war does NOT apply to ever single guardsman ever to don a uniform, if that's what you mean.

And water and dirt have almost no effect on dragonskin, it is only heat that is able to affect the adhesive holding the scales in place.

And also, If were comparing it to flak armour, then we have to have both of the same type: either we consider both full-body, or both vest.

If the dragonskin were to be applied to a full body suit, it would offer MUCH more protection, considering that the reason it is so amazing is that it spreads the kinetic energy, this effect would be amplified (squared rather than multiplied) for every inch more that it covers.

As to the railrifles, the logistics would be the easy part. All you need are well shaped magnetic bullets, as opposed to bullets filled with explosive powder, which also frees up more room for ammunition.

Water and dirt DO have an effect on its protectiveness, its one of the main reasons it will never be adopted in its current form, because it's too damn unreliable.

If you were to apply it to a whole suit, you would collapse, never be able to move without help. To move even with extra strength you would have to separate the surfaces into chest, fore arms, greaves etc.... meaning each part can only absorb the impact that hits it and the force is not spread over the whole body. For that, you would need to manufacture a whole body suit with no joints, which even then probably wouldn't work as the human body is not a constant flat surface. It would be too heavy, and you would have no joints to even try to move.

Its not the ammunition, its the power source. The experimental rail-cannon needs a large building to power it, only a large battleship has the room for a generator right now. Are you saying that this massive machine will be reduced to infantry portable in ten years? Just no, not going to happen. And my point still stands. Is it available now? No not even close.

On the topic of joints at least, it's not a problem. the scales move when you do (shocker).

It's a very heavy and thick suit of titanium, rigid and definitely not flexible. Therefore yes, not having joints would be a MASSIVE problem. What's the point in armour if you can't move in it?

It is NOT rigid. If it was, it would not disperse the kinetic energy as effectively.

The point is that human beings are a lot more flexible than dragon skin could ever hope to be. Stop toting like it's some kind of magic armor that will stop everything thrown at it.

More importantly, I once again ask you...the logistics of arming everyone with a railgun, training them to use a completely new weapon, creating the production facilities to make the railguns, their ammo and spare parts for the railguns, etc. etc. How much time and money is that going to take? It's far easier to just keep using standard small arms until those problems are solved.

ChrisWWII wrote:The point is that human beings are a lot more flexible than dragon skin could ever hope to be. Stop toting like it's some kind of magic armor that will stop everything thrown at it.

More importantly, I once again ask you...the logistics of arming everyone with a railgun, training them to use a completely new weapon, creating the production facilities to make the railguns, their ammo and spare parts for the railguns, etc. etc. How much time and money is that going to take? It's far easier to just keep using standard small arms until those problems are solved.

...except for the need for blackpowder just to make these weapons work. All you need for railguns is pieces of conductive metal and electricity.

And as for the new weapon/production facilities, it happens everytime they introduce a new weapon. The soldiers in WW2 adjusted to the new "wunderwaffens" they were issued (assault rifles).

I noticed you continually ignored the fact that the US military believes that Dragonscale is a provably inferior armor.

Melissia wrote:I noticed you continually ignored the fact that the US military believes that Dragonscale is a provably inferior armor.

...It is currently used by privatised militaries, SWAT teams, high-profile civilians, 9 Iraqi generals, and I forget all the others.

Yes, some people DID buy the false hype behind the armor. And yet, the government did research on the armor and found that it sucked. Hard. Dragonskin is an inferior form of armor to modern body armor-- bulky, unreliable, ludicrously heavy, expensive, and doesn't really provide better protection.

im2randomghgh wrote:
...except for the need for blackpowder just to make these weapons work. All you need for railguns is pieces of conductive metal and electricity.

And as for the new weapon/production facilities, it happens everytime they introduce a new weapon. The soldiers in WW2 adjusted to the new "wunderwaffens" they were issued (assault rifles).

And the power source to generate enough electricity in a man portable fashion to power the railgun for prolonged combat. You don't just need conductive metal, you need superconductors that work reliably at room temperature (possibly much higher than room temperature). You're oversimplifying the process, by your thinking all a firearm needs to work is regular metal and gunpowder. Obviously, that's a gross simplification of the issue, and it's true for railguns as well.

The 'wunderwaffen' you are referring to the Stg-44 was still a standard firearm. It was slightly different but it worked on the same mechanisms as a gun. A firing pin hits a bullet which sends a projectile through the barrell. It was more advanced, and slightly different, but the basic principle was still the same.

Now, imagine switching from the standard 'firing pin hits a detonator which fires the bullet' to a completely new system involving electricity and rails. You need to retrain your soldiers how to use the rifle, how to maintain it etc. As for the production facilities, again your oversimplifying. A factory that makes guns can easily make different types of guns. However, it might not be able to make railguns thanks to the need for different materials, different supplied different conditions than a firearm.

Besides, what advantage would a railgun give that a normal firearm could not? WHy go through all the expense to make and issue a new railgun when standard firearms co uld do the same job quicker, easier and cheaper? Rule of Cool does not apply in reality.

...It is currently used by privatised militaries, SWAT teams, high-profile civilians, 9 Iraqi generals, and I forget all the others.

And the South African government bought into the AIDS is fake hype, and thousands of Americans bought into the vaccines gives your kids autism scare. Doens't mean it's true.

Besides, railguns would need to be specially designed, otherwise they would have the problem of collateral damage as they'd go through non-armored targets easily, putting civilians at risk.

Melissia wrote:Besides, railguns would need to be specially designed, otherwise they would have the problem of collateral damage as they'd go through non-armored targets easily, putting civilians at risk.

They would need especially long barrels, meaning they would be used exclusively as snipers due to amazing range and fantastic accuracy/power. Modern Snipers also have the problem of coming out the other side, but they ARE used extensively.

If you're talking about things like the Barret .50 cal then note that is usually aimed at things that you either don't care if what's on the other side gets hit or if you want what's on the other side to get hit.

And if it's going to be used extensively as a sniper rifle, then you've just surrendered the idea that 'in 10 years every soldier will have a railgun'. Clearly that is not true for the reason you just listed. It's going to be a specialist werapon, if anything.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Besides, railguns would need to be specially designed, otherwise they would have the problem of collateral damage as they'd go through non-armored targets easily, putting civilians at risk.

They would need especially long barrels, meaning they would be used exclusively as snipers due to amazing range and fantastic accuracy/power. Modern Snipers also have the problem of coming out the other side, but they ARE used extensively.

No, it would be used as an anti-materiel rifle, because what we have now covers anti-personnel.

ChrisWWII wrote:If you're talking about things like the Barret .50 cal then note that is usually aimed at things that you either don't care if what's on the other side gets hit or if you want what's on the other side to get hit.

...just like with the railrifle. They are used for HS on the TT.

Fair enough, but the point remains that you've admitted that it's unlikely that railguns will be in the hands of your average grunt on the groun any time in the near future.

Melissia wrote:Lexicanum itself is not a source. Much like wikipedia, it is fan-made, and many of its explanations are as well.

Which is why its comment on Penal Legions is dubiously supported at best.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
They were reffered to as Guardsmen throughout, and the IG codex notes that conscripts don't receive that title until they've earnt it.

You're thinking of Whiteshields which are Cadian youth brigades, that are often dragged into combat when needed. Regular conscripts would indeed be called Guardsmen.

The official name of conscripits is Probitor. On Cadia Concscript are called Whitshields. The IG Codex states that neither gain the right to use the title gaurdsmen until they have earned it. This was not the case in 15 hours. They were indeed Gaurdsmen.

Conscripts don't tend to have sergeants either.

They'd have to be extremely poor quality for the Imperium to notice, and even then...

You going to take that risk?

If my position was politically murky or unstable? Yes. I wouldn't be sending my best troops off into the IG because I'm never going to see them again, in fact I'd be sending off dissenters and possible opponents, to the extent that IG induction is a punishment rather than an honour.

However, take a US Army company with its attendant weapons and equipment and put it up against a Kenyan company, and the AMerican company will kick ass and take names.

Without Air Support and in unfamiliar territory? The outcome is a lot more dubious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heh, conscripits.

Conscripts are not standard infantry for the Imperial Guard. Dunno where you keep pulling that idea out of (or at least you appear to be pushing that idea).

im2randomghgh wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Snogs wrote:or you can upgrade your bolter to a pulse rifle and forget this debate...


So true.

Yet two sources(Last Chancers and Blood Gorgons novels) show them as being somewhat better than lasguns.Bolters are stronger than Pule Rifles.

Blood Gorgons doesn't even mention pulse rifles. Haven't read last chancers.

Anyway, one example is the being str5 on the TT.

Time for wiki quotes!

"Compared to other infantry weapons, the Pulse Rifle trades firing rate for damage; when compared to a Space Marine Bolter, it appears to work more like a hand held artillery piece, firing at one-third the rate but doing significantly more damage and having a much longer range"

Also, in the intro to the first Ravenor book, there is a pulse rilfe that is referred to as being more powerful than any standard Imperial small arms-including the bolter.

Please get your facts straight.

Blood Gorgons, pgs 89-90
'How is your knee?' Sargaul asked, flexing his own.
Barsabbas stretched out his right leg, the thick cords of his thigh rippling. 'Better today.' he shrugged.
'I thought so', nodded Sargaul, flexing his own right leg. 'They were ferocious, those Tau. Much better at war-making than I expected.'



They engaged on the tundra, trading shots between dwarf shrubs and sedges, low grass and lichens. By the hundreds, the Tau had come, their firing lines disciplined and their shots overwhelming in sheer volume. Pulsating blue plasma hammered them so hard their armour systems had been pushed to failure, and Barsabbas's power suit had reached seventy percent damage threshold within the first few volleys.

As for the Ravenor provide the quote.

I wouldn't use the tabletop as a source of anything since after all,it's game mechanics.Also why do you use wiki,the thing can be edited by anyone.

Melissia wrote:Conscripts are not standard infantry for the Imperial Guard. Dunno where you keep pulling that idea out of (or at least you appear to be pushing that idea).

I've never said anything of the sort. I was simply pointing out that the main character from 15 hours, and his compatriots, wasn't a conscript. He was a normal guardsman, inducted from the main populace rather than the PDF (apparently to meet some extended tithe, or perhaps the planet's PDF was virtually non-existent).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey, I get it. That was a strawman!

im2randomghgh wrote:...except for the need for blackpowder just to make these weapons work. All you need for railguns is pieces of conductive metal and electricity.

And constant replacement rails, since the process of firing rapidly degrades them and turns the surface to non-conductive oxides, due to the heat of the electrical arc and the ionization of air. At the level of the Naval railguns, you've got a one shot barrel, because the rails are effectively destroyed by a single firing. I don't know how great the problem is in smaller rails, at a power level comparable to the more powerful modern rifles, but the military obviously doesn't think it would work, or be a logistically feasible idea in any case.

im2randomghgh wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:If you're talking about things like the Barret .50 cal then note that is usually aimed at things that you either don't care if what's on the other side gets hit or if you want what's on the other side to get hit.

...just like with the railrifle. They are used for HS on the TT.

Point still stands. It's come down from 'every grunt will have a railrifle in 10 years' to 'aw, hm ok, maybe some specialist sniper teams will have them in 10 years'.

These sniper teams will probably include 7 - 10 guys, a small transport and a lot of equipment. It's better used on a vehicle and as a Heavy anti-armour weapon rather than anti-personnel, or mounted on a battle-ship as they are currently thinking of doing (think Transformers 2). I've seen computerised demonstrations of what they want to do with it, it could cover several hundred kilometres and explode before hitting the ground, sending a massive payload of shrapnel over a massive area at very high speeds or they could use it as a pinpoint target hitter. Either way, it will be fearsome.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:Conscripts are not standard infantry for the Imperial Guard. Dunno where you keep pulling that idea out of (or at least you appear to be pushing that idea).

I've never said anything of the sort. I was simply pointing out that the main character from 15 hours, and his compatriots, wasn't a conscript. He was a normal guardsman, inducted from the main populace rather than the PDF (apparently to meet some extended tithe, or perhaps the planet's PDF was virtually non-existent).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey, I get it. That was a strawman!

No, that was honestly what I got from your posts.

Where is KillKrazy to shut down this tread? You are talking about conscription, armor, weapon and totally gone off topic...

Brother Coa wrote:Where is KillKrazy to shut down this tread? You are talking about conscription, armor, weapon and totally gone off topic...

All three of those are on-topic. The thread should have been shut down a long time ago, but because the entire thing is asinine.

Brother Coa wrote:Where is KillKrazy to shut down this tread? You are talking about conscription, armor, weapon and totally gone off topic...

How is any of that off-topic?

Asinine it may be from our point of few, but however stupid the opposing argument is in our opinion, we have remained on-topic and relatively polite through-out.

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Where is KillKrazy to shut down this tread? You are talking about conscription, armor, weapon and totally gone off topic...

All three of those are on-topic. The thread should have been shut down a long time ago, but because the entire thing is asinine.

What is that have to do with 100 IG against 100 our troops?
We would lose, most of us agreed.
Let's move on...