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No offense KK, but nearly any scenario involving infantry advancing against infantry results in massive losses and nearly certain failure.

And 100 Ig can have a lot of heavy weapons, if they wanted. I mean, you can send 100 conscritps across open ground, or you can take a arms and equiptment similar to what the current military has.

CCS w/ four specials

Then three platoons of:
PCS w/ four specials
2x Infantry squads with heavy/special
heavy weapon squad

So, you'd have 12 heavy weapons and 22 specials. And heavy bolters are far heavier than even a modern heavy machine gun, not to mention the availability of grenade launchers and missle launchers.

So, while the modern forces might (depending on the IG regiment) have more training and experience in small unit taactics, the IG are going to have the advantages in many other areas. And if you're going to bring up a relatively elite modern military, then it's only fair to include relatively elite IG regiment.

Kilkrazy wrote:The long range firefight will be decided by support weapons such as machine-guns and grenade launchers. Since the US infantry have a high proportion of these, it makes sense for the IG to close the range as quickly as possible, to maximise their advantages.

IG should have at least 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon per 10 men.

Your calculation gives the US light infantry 1 heavy weapon (machine gun) per every 4 men and an additional grenade launcher for almost every 5 men?

I've got no relevant experience with modern day infantry, but does every other guy really carry a special or heavy weapon?

As far as 100 on a hundred goes, I'd have to give it to the modern day soldiers/it being a tie. 100 men just isn't going to allow for the IG's strength to come into play. If the IG do a massed charge, they'll be slaughtered like KK shows. However, I'd say that one hundred Guardsmen are far more likely to want to rely on their heavy weapons, and any commander worth his salt would realize that the thing to do here would be to try and weaken the enemies morale/numbers with heavy fire so that when your attack comes, the enemy doesn't say 'I am going to stand and fight!' the enemy says 'Screw this, I'm out of here!'. Now, here the Guard have a major advantage in that with Commissars, they have 'better' morale than the average modern day soldier. They aren't going to fall back. They're going to hold the line or die trying. I feel it important to stress that while the IG may be dogmatic, they aren't idiots. They have 10,000 years of combat experience to draw upon, and they know how to fight, and that they will have to fight...one can never underestimate that.

But....just thinking about the size of a company, I have what I'd consider an infantry company of IG on the floor right now. It fields about 92 Guardsmen with lasguns, and 18 heavy weapons. I have a feeling that if such a force engaged a similar sized US Army company, the battle would likely turn into a stalemate with each side firing heavy weapons at each other. Whoever silences the opponents heavy weapons first wins. The battle could go either way.

Another point that I have to bring up (and I'm surprised no one else HAS) is the psychology of the war. Your average Guardsman has been indocrtinated since birth to know that he is just another piece of canon fodder, he is going to die, and the best he can do is make his death worthwhile. He likely has some combat experience under his belt, and any Veterans would definitely have experience facing horrors unkown to the modern battlefield.

Now, let's look at your average modern soldier. We'll use an American one simply cause well...a modern Western army will put up the best fight. Now, he's been raised to value individuality, and as a result views his own life, and the life of his companions as valuable in and of itself. If he has combat experience at all it will likely be against an guerilla force in either Iraq or Afghanistan. He may know abou the kind of horrors of war, but he hasn't experienced them directly, and to be honest, even the worst things on the modern battlefield would be child's play compared to 40k.

So, these troopers go against each other in a massive battle...well, the modern day soldier just wouldn't be ready for the kind of warfare that the IG would unleash. Even combat veterans wouldn't be prepared for the kinds of massive artillery bombardments/duels, the massed armored charges, or the infantry charges. I'd wager significant money that they would break and fall back. They just aren't ready to fight the kind of war the Imperial Guard could unleash. Hell, I'd put more money on the 1944/45 Wehrmacht Heer and Red Army to stand against the IG. They at least have experience with that kind of warfare.

Finally, I'd also like to point out that as far as armored warfare goes? I ahve a few points to make.

1) We have no idea what that armor is made out of, admantium in and of itself is likely stronger than steel, and we have no idea is it's just a giant wall of admantium, or a multilayered composite armor or what. Saying a HEAT shell will blast right through it isn't a fair comparison. Sure a HEAT shell would go through 200 mm of steel...but a Leman Russ isn't armored with steel.

2) Combat experience. When was the last time tanks faced tanks in a real battle? Don't say the Gulf War, because the Gulf War wasn't a tank battle...the Iraqi T-72s were of such low quality, armed with shells of such low quality thant it's nigh impossible to even consider it 'real'. NOt to mention the idiocity of digging them in in the open desert....=shakes head= But yes, the last real tank battles? We probably haven't seen real tank battles since the Korean War. NO tanker in service today likely has actual combat experience. To be honest, it's become a problem with American tankers that they think of themselves as invincible thanks to the Gulf War. And trust me, the last thing you want your tank crews to be feeling is invincible.

Your average Leman Russ crew? They've probably seen some battle, and likely have fought enemy vehicles equal to them before. They know full well they aren't invulnerable, and that there's a lot of dangers to them out there. In a one to one battle between a Leman Russ and an Abrams/Challenger II/T-90? I'd go with the real world tank. But in an actual tank clash? I'd side with the EMperor's armored regiments.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

Laodamia wrote:
And I still think our air support loses to the imperial navy wings. Really hard.

^^Fixed^^



I didn't say terra-bound imperial navy. . .

I said navy wings! I carefully excluded imperial battleships from my point!
I meant thunderbolts/lightnings against F22 and the like. And in this kind of airdcraft encounter, we bust imperial aircrafts reaaally hard. But this is just my point of view.

Now, if you want to talk about the big-heavy-massive guns of the imperial navy, no imperial warship would be able to shoot down one of our planes in flight. Too small, too fast. The guns of imperial cruisers and battleships are designed to obliterate other cruisers and battleships. They are ridiculously powerful, but not very accurate. Maybe something smaller and specially designed for anti-aircraft roles (a frigate maybe?) would do the trick though.
What an imperial battleship (like your nice looking Retribution-class battleship ) could do though, is orbital-bomb our air bases. Bomb the base, the country, bomb even the continent, just to be safe...

ChrisWWII wrote:Another point that I have to bring up (and I'm surprised no one else HAS) is the psychology of the war.

This was brought up on page 1.

I thank you for re-iterating, because I think it's valid.

Well, a Lightingin could outrun an F-22, and would most likely be the ones the Imperium sent to engage Earth aircraft in atmosphere. Let's not forget that if the Imperial aircraft get too outmatched, they can just choose to flee into orbit. No aircraft could follow them up there.

And, we know that things like the Manticore can carry SAMs, it's not a stretch of the imagination to believe that Imperial aircraft can carry some form of air to air weaponry. Not to mention, an Imperial airfcraft actually has armor. It might even be able to stand up to a ATA missile detonation....remember, missiles don't kill by 'hitting' their taget. They kill by detonating near their target, and filling the air with shrapnel. Shrapnel is something an Imperial aircraft might be good at resisting.

Also, we saw in Vietnam that OTH missile combat isn't exactly the best thing to do. Mig-17s were more than capable of engaging F-4s in close range dogfights, and the F-4s tended to come out on the bottom.

I guess I should also question those saying the IG has horried AtA defense. As far as I can tell, Imperial AtA is based around flak, and only flak. When in reality, Imperial AtA is based around a combination of anti-air Manticores and Hydras, just like how the Rusian Army has both missile armed vehicles for antiair warfare, and gun armed vehicles.

IG would win. Lasguns don't do much to Astartes, but among humans is one badass weapon. Read Gaunt's Ghosts, lol, the lasgun is way more than a laser pen.

ChrisWWII wrote:Well, a Lightingin could outrun an F-22, and would most likely be the ones the Imperium sent to engage Earth aircraft in atmosphere. Let's not forget that if the Imperial aircraft get too outmatched, they can just choose to flee into orbit. No aircraft could follow them up there.

IIRC, lightnings and thunderbolts are not capable of space flights. They are only atmospheric fighters. For space battles, the IoM uses Fury fighters and Starhawk bombers, which are a LOT bigger than lightnings. They are specifically designed for space battles. I imagine their atmospheric performances are a bit like those of a modern world space shuttle: rubbish.

Good point with the manticores and the IoM triple A defenses, though.

We saw in Gaunt's Ghosts that Imperial battleships make use of Lightnings as CAP. So, yes, Lightinings and Thunderbolts are desinged for combat in atmosphere, and aren't optimized for space combat like the Fury fighters. HOWEVER, the Lightning and Thunderbolt can operate in space. They'll likely be out manuvered and performed by true void fighters, but they'll be able to go into space.

This all depends on the composition of those hundred guys. If you are talking 100 bog-standard lasgun armed troops vs 100 rifle armed troops then yeah, there is probably no major advantage either way.

If you make those 100 guys a fairly standard IG troops list though, against 100 modern troops organised as a fighting force then imho things would start to go badly for the modern troops. Psyker squads, ogryns, ratlings, flamers, plasma guns, etc etc and you start to have a noticeable advantage for the IG.

ChrisWWII wrote:Well, a Lightingin could outrun an F-22, and would most likely be the ones the Imperium sent to engage Earth aircraft in atmosphere. Let's not forget that if the Imperial aircraft get too outmatched, they can just choose to flee into orbit. No aircraft could follow them up there.

Which, combined with their lascannons, would instantly swat any modern fighter out of the sky.


One interesting thing that I have no clue about: Is there any mention in fluff about (anti-radar) stealth technology on Imperial craft? How do we even know that our missiles can "see" them?

I don't think the Imperium cares about stealth. The battleships with kilometers high eagles made out of gold, and the 100 meter tall walking battle cathedrals of doom kinda make me doubt the Imperium's appreciation of 'stealth'.

ChrisWWII wrote:I don't think the Imperium cares about stealth. The battleships with kilometers high eagles made out of gold, and the 100 meter tall walking battle cathedrals of doom kinda make me doubt the Imperium's appreciation of 'stealth'.

They have stealth space fighters.It was used to deploy an Inquisitor and his attendants to the surface of some world(I think that it appears in Double Eagle).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisWWII wrote:*snip*

Sadly IG would stomp modern day army,as you see Flak armor stops any modern weapon bullets in fluff quite easily.
Then we have the fact how lasguns are superior to modern day weaponry.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Another point that I have to bring up (and I'm surprised no one else HAS) is the psychology of the war. Your average Guardsman has been indocrtinated since birth to know that he is just another piece of canon fodder, he is going to die, and the best he can do is make his death worthwhile. He likely has some combat experience under his belt, and any Veterans would definitely have experience facing horrors unkown to the modern battlefield.

You assume these are good things.

The evidence at our disposal is that cannon fodder forces can stand and die, but their ability to manoeuvre and fight well is poor compared to properly trained troops.

Also, exposure to horrors does not inoculate the human mind, it weakens it.

Kilkrazy wrote:

You assume these are good things.

The evidence at our disposal is that cannon fodder forces can stand and die, but their ability to manoeuvre and fight well is poor compared to properly trained troops.

Also, exposure to horrors does not inoculate the human mind, it weakens it.

This is indeed true. I am assuming that these are good things, but a Guardsman is going to do what he's ordered even if it's suicidal, and with an army like the Imperial Guard, that's what you want. Like I said, the IG are dogmatic, but they aren't idiots. In all honesty, the Imperial Guard seems to have a very similar build to Soviet style forces, especially with its obsession with top-down control, with this style, canon fodder forces who are obedient are the best to have. You don't want troops who go on their own initiative and screw up high command's plans. To be honest, a company versus a company isn't really a good measure of an IG force. In this smaller scale, of course the Western style army will win. However, in a larger scale (all else being equal), you're much more likely to see the centralized army pull ahead.

And while it's true that exposuire to horror weakens that mind, I can't help but feel that the constant exposure to eldritch abominations the Guard goes through would be enough to steel them against most things. And if that fails? Commissars do exist for a reason...

ChrisWWII wrote:
This is indeed true. I am assuming that these are good things, but a Guardsman is going to do what he's ordered even if it's suicidal, and with an army like the Imperial Guard, that's what you want. Like I said, the IG are dogmatic, but they aren't idiots.

In the vaster majority of fluff, the squad-level organization/doctrine of IG seems no worse than modern military. Very rarely do you actually see mass frontal assaults against enemy prepared defenses except when support is abundant or numerical superiority overwhelming.

One thing you are forgetting is that if an Ig force showed up on earth facing the U.S. we probably wont just use 100 soldiers, and modern diterrants (missile strikes, the BIG BOY, stealth bombers, etc) seem far more advanced than what is represented in the game/fluff.

Like I said, the IG are dogmatic. If they have the manpower and support available they will throw men into the meat grinder until the meat grinder clogs up. If the situation calls for something else, they'll use a different strategy or plan. In this sense, they are very flexible. However, they are predictable as well.

Captain Shrike wrote:One thing you are forgetting is that if an Ig force showed up on earth facing the U.S. we probably wont just use 100 soldiers, and modern diterrants (missile strikes, the BIG BOY, stealth bombers, etc) seem far more advanced than what is represented in the game/fluff.

No you've missed the point of my thread we arguing who is better a modern soldier or an IG

The Imperial Guard are primarily drawn from the best of Planetary Defense Forces, who could probably be considered roughly equivalent to a modern soldier from a first world country. They then receive further training, and are kitted out with a more advanced version of modern body armor and a perfectly accurate weapon that both strikes instantly and is capable of blasting molten holes in solid rock. At this point, they're expected to be able to take entire planets held and fortified by hundreds of thousands to millions of mutants or cultists, who are armed with weapons and armor roughly equivalent to modern ones, with only a few tens of thousands of soldiers.

I think it's safe to say that man for man, the Guard is a more elite, better equipped force than any modern army.

Game ranges are adapted for play on a 6x4 table with models large enough to have a good degree of detail. If we look for higher resolution numbers (from the Dark Heresy rulebook), we find that lasguns have a maximum range of about 400m, while autoguns have a maximum range of about 360m. Both longlases and hunting rifles have a maximum range of about 600m. This is probably a case of Did Not Do the Research, though, if they meant the the autogun to roughly represent the M-16 it's visually based on, so we can assume the lasgun is meant to have a range slightly longer than that of a modern assault rifle. Damage is... identical, but Dark Heresy's damage system seems pretty wonky overall, with trivial differences between arrows, muskets, pistols, rifles, shotguns, and bolters.

Captain Shrike wrote:One thing you are forgetting is that if an Ig force showed up on earth facing the U.S. we probably wont just use 100 soldiers, and modern diterrants (missile strikes, the BIG BOY, stealth bombers, etc) seem far more advanced than what is represented in the game/fluff.

Are you being serious or are you just trolling? How anyone could argue that modern-day tech is "more advanced" than the tech of the IG is beyond me. Deathstrike Missiles ARE "big boys" in their NORMAL configuration, then there's the Vortex payloads etc. As for missile strikes, I give you... the Cyclonic Torpedo, magna-melta warhead!


But really, what on EARTH do you think stealth bombers would do to the IG? Their BEST case scenario is they get all their bombs away, get shot down and crash into something useful. Nuclear missiles would just prompt the IG to go back to orbit and laugh at us as they turn all life on Earth to cinders.

In the hypothetical 100 vs. 100 scenario the IG would probably prevail, as other posters have pointed out in the thread. Flak Armour stops our bullets, lasguns shoots holes through stone. Not to mention autocannons, heavy bolters, mortars, anti-personell missile launchers and lascannons.

I think allot have been understating the ability of a Guardsman especially the tech available to him based purely on th characteristics of a TT game where cool is the rule and each force is design to follow deliberately different principles.

Having said that I always use the following assumption when trying to compare 40k weapons to real world [I know, I know ] situations. Heavy Stubbers/Bolters [S4] are the equivalent of .50 cal weaponry we have today in both fluff and real world effect. So a S5 weapon would be a step up from that, say real world 20mm, S6 would be the equivalent of larger cannon, S7-10 the equivalent of anything from a light AT missile up to 150mm shells.

Now with this in mind I see the 100 Imperial Guards [IG] vs 100 US riflemen [GI] as follows;

Basic Kit: IG have tech that has been advanced many millennia from now, that would mean better weapons and armour than any modern force could muster, that being said basic arms would be fairly similar in effect. With my above assumption in mind the integral MGs and SAW that the GI's possess would increase their firepower over the IG possibly cancelled out by the Guardsman’s greater ammo capacity per man over extended fire fights (assuming at least 60 rounds per clip vs 30 of the GI). This sort of cancelling each other out I feel that IG body armour would give an edge in this department.

Support weaponry: An IG platoon packs integral heavy weaponry far in excess of the modern troops. So using KK's loadout (and assuming that some company level assets are available) in this section the GI's have underslung Grenade Launchers [S6], AT missiles [S7-8], a smattering of mortars and .50 cals [S4] and maybe a GMGs [S6] - impressive stuff by any standard.

Now the IG have a mix of support weaponry mostly GLs and a mix of Melta/Plasma. In addition a mix of many Mortars, AutoCannons, H Bolters and Missile Launchers. Now using my assumption the IG are packing allot of what would be considered vehicle size/strength weapons at an infantry level. This should be a devastating advantage to the IG.

Skill: An unaugmented IG trooper will be as well trained as any first rate modern soldier. Ignoring the fact that 38000 years may have taught armies a thing or two I would suggest that they are much the same. Also don't forget that the Imperial Tithe sets standards for IG regiments and woe betide the Imperial Commander that does not comply.

Morale: Well trained and well armed, confident in his/her skill and leaders a GI will stand up as well as a Guardsman I would imagine, but the guardsman will have a few other things on his side; 1) faith in the God-emperor - these are fanatics in a very real sense (they hate everything, non believers are anathema) 2) The commissariat is there to fill any gaps in each mans fervour with a bolt round if necessary.

Finally not being a Meany like the rest of you I have given our combatants cover. This being the case static positions and sustained/support fire comes to the fore. Now this being the case the IG will start to gain the upper hand and using the cover available close on the enemy. The GIs being of sufficient quality will hold their position despite being suppressed and a CQB will ensue.

This is where the IG will win the fight and not I believe because of H2h or anything as dangerous as that but because the IG will use the one support weapon that I have not listed and that is Terror weapon No.1 - the Flamer.

On seeing their mates set on fire for the first time the GIs will surrender en-masse for fear of the same or fall back. Think Gerry vs the Crocodile in WW2.

So Imperial Guard wins this week, tune in next week for Horus vs. Stalin!

EDIT for typo and apology for the wall-o-text

I think the key here is that in terms of quality, the range of Imperial guarsman is about as wide as the range of modern soldiers, in terms of training, psychology, iniative, etc.

Quality of infantry can vary widely, even within a single army in a single theater. Look at the battle of Berlin, on both sides. You had elite SS, old men and boys, russian peasant conscripts, and battle hardened Red Army veterans. Taking 100 soldiers from eithe of those four groups would result in extremely divergent results.

Given the variables, the one constant is that hte IG trooper will have better body armor and a more reliable, and higher powered rifle that has far more "ammunition."

If comparing a US rifle company to a Cadian company, the GIs will have more suppression fire weapons (SAWs, light underslung grenade launchers) while the IG will have more powerful heavy and specials (heavy bolters and grenade launchers) If you listen to the fluff, it's possible that IG don't issue stubbers and SAWs to line squads because the lasgun does the job. Even space marines don't wade into lasgun volly fire in the fluff.

The factor that nobody has mentioned that I think would be important isn't tactical initiative (which I think modern militaries are stronger at in general) but tactical flexibility. IG troopers are trained to fight across the galaxy against dozens of species. Modern militaries are trained to fight a handful of types of enemies. I think that hte IG could adapt to fighting GIs quicker and more readily than GIs could adapt to facing IG. I'd favor our chances in the long run, as I think we could adapt quicker, but the IG already have a playbook for fighting most enemies, while the GIs will be surprised.

As others have mentioned, it would probably depend on the soldiers in the IG, for example Cadians or Vostroyans. Different soldiers would show different results. And even if you talk about standard issue, I am sure almost every guard unit has something of standard issue, perhaps a different model of lasgun, or like Camo-cloaks of the Tanith.

I would think it would really be very hard to judge. If you take the best, most well trained and equiped modern soldiers and the best, most well trained and equiped Guard unit and if best for Guard means Cadian shock troops or better (?), then i think Guard would win. It is also mostly about luck, lucky shot to the head perhaps?

Much as I say, I wouldnt try to pit them against each other due to the limitless possibilities that can occur in warfare. Everything that can happen to one side can happen to another. Just role a die.

Thanks to everyone who posted and I think the IG have it

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Imperial Guard are primarily drawn from the best of Planetary Defense Forces, who could probably be considered roughly equivalent to a modern soldier from a first world country. They then receive further training, and are kitted out with a more advanced version of modern body armor and a perfectly accurate weapon that both strikes instantly and is capable of blasting molten holes in solid rock. At this point, they're expected to be able to take entire planets held and fortified by hundreds of thousands to millions of mutants or cultists, who are armed with weapons and armor roughly equivalent to modern ones, with only a few tens of thousands of soldiers.

I think it's safe to say that man for man, the Guard is a more elite, better equipped force than any modern army.

.

How do you make that out?

The best regiments such as Cadians and Mordians, are certainly elite, but the rest of them are the sweepings of the gaols, asylums and political prisons, shipped out to fill an Imperial quota by getting rid of some dross.

Their equipment and training is so basic that it's a step up to carry a plasma gun, a weapon which kills one in six operators. Their training is so minimal that they rely totally on rigid obedience to orders for their tactics, and morale is so low that they can only be driven into battle by the threat of instant death from their own superiors.

Thanks to all this, despite being spearheaded by nine-feet-tall supermen, advancing behind a curtain of fire thrown up by astonishing artillery and overwhelming orbital support, they struggle to overcome starving, disorganised civilian cultists who have no training and are armed only with captured and improvised weapons.

Their commanders care nothing for their lives, and will happily order them to jump into ditches and fill them with their broken bodies to facilitate the passage of holy, irreplaceable tanks. A single Baneblade is worth more than divisions of Guard.

I think it's safe to say that man for man, the Guard is a desperate, demoralised and incompetent force compared to any modern army.

Thunder555 wrote:I'd say that soldiers are soldiers even in future, so it would be about the equipment. Lasgun vs moder rifle.. I'd say lasgun wins. If it didn't, why the hell would they use them after 40000 years?
IG armour can give some protecting from genestealers too (with 6's ) and they can punch through tanks. I doubt modern armours can offer much protection from knives without hindering your movements.
So yeah.. IG wins.

can punch through tanks? what tanks?

The majority of cases where tithing is mentioned have them drawn from the local PDF. A few tens of thousands of Guard is portrayed as being able to take entire planets from an entrenched enemy that vastly outnumbers them, and which is also generally portrayed as being armed and armored with equipment comparable to modern military equipment.

How many soldiers do we have fighting against a disorganized enemy armed with antique weapons and no armor? How many more did the Soviets send against those same people (who were armed even worse until we gave them the (now antique) weapons they're currently using against us), with even worse results? A lot more than a few tens of thousands, against an enemy that's far less numerous than what you'd expect from an entire planet given over to Chaos.

Quite frankly it boils down to who has the better equipment if you go by the 100 VS 100 in an open field battle. In that case IG wins, as the Lasgun, while inferior by 40k standards, is quite powerful compared to any modern equivallent. Their basic armor, Flak Armor, takes a RPG round to penetrate (most armor we have wont survive most assault rifle rounds, let alone an explosion made by a rifle-round-like RPG). Yes they might charge head-first into battle, but quite honestly, they can feasably do that with their equipment.

If it's a military-wide equipment comparison, then IG still wins. Try having any tank face up to a column of Leman Russ MTBs Not only are the things so damn manourverable but it can run on anything from diesel to wood. This means that if you cut off logistics to the tank, it's not likely going to stop them until quite some time afterwards (when the crew starves to death, assuming they dont know how to forage or raid for food). Air support? The IG have Orbital Support. Also, most tanks in 40k takes a melta round to reliably destroy, which is basically a fusion bomb. A fission meltdown is considered a disaster, so being hit by a fusion one will no doubt destroy any morale left in the opposing troops, not to mention turn the unfortunate target into a pool of smoldering metal.

Kilkrazy wrote:

The best regiments such as Cadians and Mordians, are certainly elite, but the rest of them are the sweepings of the gaols, asylums and political prisons, shipped out to fill an Imperial quota by getting rid of some dross.

Page 8 of the IG Codex says that the elite units of the planet are the ones sent in the yearly tithe to the Imperium, and it's not uncommon for competitions to be fought over the 'reward' of being promoted to the Guard. So, if the Earth were to be part of the Imperium, we'd send them the SAS, Delta FOrce, etc. to joing the IG, while the basic military force would be retained as the local PDF.

Their equipment and training is so basic that it's a step up to carry a plasma gun, a weapon which kills one in six operators. Their training is so minimal that they rely totally on rigid obedience to orders for their tactics, and morale is so low that they can only be driven into battle by the threat of instant death from their own superiors.

Okay, now you're just falling down to plain flanderization of the Imperial Guard. Their basic equipment, the lasgun is actually a godsend when it comes to massing large armies. It's light, easy to maintain and repair, and it has a much smaller logistics train. It's the space AK-47 turned up to 11. I wouldn't call it an 'upgrade' to get a plasma gun, because a plasma gun has none of this. It's heavy, hard to maintain, and no doubt has a larger logistics train.

And, it is not exactly EASY to train an army into the kind of shape where it obeys orders without question. The human instinct when facing danger is basic fight or flight, the amount of training to get them to supress that instinct and follow their superiors orders without question should not be overestimated. More importantly, Imperial Guard morale tends to not be low, unless it is in a situation when even a modern army would have low morale...from what we've seen, they're willing to continue fighting even in the worst of situations. They may be scared, but they will stick to the line and fire their lasguns to the end.

Thanks to all this, despite being spearheaded by nine-feet-tall supermen, advancing behind a curtain of fire thrown up by astonishing artillery and overwhelming orbital support, they struggle to overcome starving, disorganised civilian cultists who have no training and are armed only with captured and improvised weapons.

Ummm...the only time we see them fail to overcome such a force is when such a force outnumbers them immensely. I can't recall a single fluff instance when an Imperial Guard army on the advance was stopped dead in its tracks by such a force. If you're referring to Vraks, well that hardly counts! Vraks had such deep and impenentrable defenses that even an modern army would be hard pressed to chew through. And, we also have to note that the Imperial Guard manages to hold bank enemies far far worse than Chaos cultists. The Imperial Guard defeat planetary PDFs, Ork invasions, Eldar raids, etc. etc.

Their commanders care nothing for their lives, and will happily order them to jump into ditches and fill them with their broken bodies to facilitate the passage of holy, irreplaceable tanks. A single Baneblade is worth more than divisions of Guard.

One of the quotes from 'Murphy's Laws of War' is that 'If it's stupid, but it works then it ain't stupid,' and for the Imperium? Treating your Guardsmen this way works. It's been stressed again and again that the Imperium has manpower in a nigh unlimited supply, while things like Baneblades are rare and valuable. Now, you have two options...you can spend your nigh limitless currency, or you can spend your rare, almost unreplacable currency. Each will have the same effect....I don't know about you but I'd spend th currency I have in nigh unlimited amounts first.

It may seem abhorrent to our society to think that a machine could be worth its weight in human lives, but we have to stress: the Imperium is not our society. The Imperium is a society where life is cheap, and everyone knows it. An individuals life is a minor detail, the survival of a Baneblade? That might actually be important.

I think it's safe to say that man for man, the Guard is a desperate, demoralised and incompetent force compared to any modern army.

I'd say man for man, the Imperial Guardsman would outfight a modern soldier. THe Guardsman has better armor, and better weaponry. I feel like I must stress this again, the IG are dogmatic, but dogmatic does not equal incompetent. The kind of centralized command strucuture of the Guard works extremely well with an army like the Guard when you have lots of men who aren't trained to the highest quality.

If we look at most situations, the average Imperial Guardsman will face death, and will tend to hold his nerve. He will stand and fight. His nerve may crack later, but we've seen Guardsmen launch themselves into suicidal attacks time and time again. You can never underestimate the value of fanaticism.