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Joey wrote:When watching an episode of something, you need a reason to watch - a premise, a progression, and a sense of change. GOT, as far as I can tell, omitted the latter of these two entirely. Developments only serve to beg further questions

That's pretty much Martin's writing style. The narration gets set up to lead the audience to expect a certain story - Robb leading his troops to rescue his father; Renly and Stannis reaching an agreement against a common foe; Danny leading the Dothraki to Westeros; Arya killing Tywin - but then, rather than having the characters stay in their rightful place and act out the story, gives them human behavior and motivations. Cersei sees a threat in Ned and has him removed. Stannis is stubborn and Renly is arrogant and they have a falling out. Danny realizes the people abused by the Dothraki really don't like them. Arya succumbs to petty grievances.

The problem I have with Martin is that he does this all the time and it's hard to see where the story is actually going. You're always thrown for a loop because Martin loves to change the entire story at a moment's notice.

Once you've read the first 5 books or so you realize that the entire war in Westeros is not the main story. The main story is the battle between the forces of "ice" (the Others) and the forces of "fire" (Dragons).

Joey wrote:like Lost but with tits and violence.

I'm not sure I see the problem. Well, I didn't like Lost, but otherwise, sounds decent.

@sirlynchmob

You don't even need the book. The show has quite a bit of character progression in season 1. Catelyn's beginning of descent into borderline crazy (where her family is concerned). Robb becoming a man. Bran becoming crippled and growing to accept it. Arya's progression from the first episode to the last with her growing confidence and understanding of the world she lives in. Jon also growing up and accepting a man's responsibility and confronting his place in life. Dany going from scared teenager being sold to her current spot.

And that's the first season.

I'd say the characters evolved and I wouldn't say all of them are despicable. They are human in a hard world which the modern day doesn't understand at all with our feelings of safety. I find some of them repugnant and others I quite enjoy.

As for the show itself I'd say it moves along pretty well. Much better than most shows I've watched and with a cleaner progression. In fact that's one of the things I like about HBO serires. There generally aren't filler episodes since they don't run for the standard 22 shows out here which means we get that solid progression you rarely see on cable.

biccat wrote:

Joey wrote:When watching an episode of something, you need a reason to watch - a premise, a progression, and a sense of change. GOT, as far as I can tell, omitted the latter of these two entirely. Developments only serve to beg further questions

That's pretty much Martin's writing style. The narration gets set up to lead the audience to expect a certain story - Robb leading his troops to rescue his father; Renly and Stannis reaching an agreement against a common foe; Danny leading the Dothraki to Westeros; Arya killing Tywin - but then, rather than having the characters stay in their rightful place and act out the story, gives them human behavior and motivations. Cersei sees a threat in Ned and has him removed. Stannis is stubborn and Renly is arrogant and they have a falling out. Danny realizes the people abused by the Dothraki really don't like them. Arya succumbs to petty grievances.

The problem I have with Martin is that he does this all the time and it's hard to see where the story is actually going. You're always thrown for a loop because Martin loves to change the entire story at a moment's notice.

That's pretty much how I felt. Rather than a plot, or one or two sub-plots, that bend and twist and interweave, there are half a dozen plots, the fundamentals of which seem to change all the time.
To take the blond girl's sub-plot as an example, first we're told that her brother wants to reclaim the throne, and has married her off to a barbarian in order to do so. So far so good.
No wait, the barbarian has killed him off! Now the girl is going to retake the throne at the side of her barbarian husband, okay.
Wait, now he's dead, and she's alone. Also something to do with dragons. The premise of the entire sub-plot changes every damn episode. And all of the sub-plots do this!

biccat wrote:
I'm not sure I see the problem. Well, I didn't like Lost, but otherwise, sounds decent.

Don't get me wrong, I love sex, and violence. Hell the first time you see that blond girl's ass I nearly exploded. And watching her being ravished was, to say the least, interesting.

Joey wrote:Wait, now he's dead, and she's alone. Also something to do with dragons. The premise of the entire sub-plot changes every damn episode. And all of the sub-plots do this!

Yeah. That's why I'm waiting for the last book to come out, then I'm just going to plow through them all in a week or two.

Hulksmash wrote:@sirlynchmob

You don't even need the book. The show has quite a bit of character progression in season 1. Catelyn's beginning of descent into borderline crazy (where her family is concerned). Robb becoming a man. Bran becoming crippled and growing to accept it. Arya's progression from the first episode to the last with her growing confidence and understanding of the world she lives in. Jon also growing up and accepting a man's responsibility and confronting his place in life. Dany going from scared teenager being sold to her current spot.

And that's the first season.

I'd say the characters evolved and I wouldn't say all of them are despicable. They are human in a hard world which the modern day doesn't understand at all with our feelings of safety. I find some of them repugnant and others I quite enjoy.

As for the show itself I'd say it moves along pretty well. Much better than most shows I've watched and with a cleaner progression. In fact that's one of the things I like about HBO serires. There generally aren't filler episodes since they don't run for the standard 22 shows out here which means we get that solid progression you rarely see on cable.

You mean first two seasons.

Cats arc is just bugging me this season, No one has told her yet that theon killed two boys in winterfell who she thinks is her sons. That was her motivation to release the king slayer. Cutting that scene just really bugs me, she wouldn't just release him to save her girls, but after losing 2 kids it pushes her to release him in hopes of saving them.

I was glad they put a lot more effort into the battle for kings landing, I was worried theyd cut costs and skimp on it. But I liked how they did it.

They did cut costs and skimp on it, and HBO started by asking them why it couldn't be done off screen. They just hired a director who is very good at stretching tiny budgets to make things look more impressive than they really are.

Well, according to the book it was a fleet of ships filled with wildfire that exploded instead of one ship.

But they did pretty good with what they had to work with I think. I know we like to Monday Morning Quarterback things, we are the internets after all, but I try to keep in mind that the 10 hours of film per season pretty much included the entire runtime of the non-extended version of the Lord of the Rings Triology. Sure they were grand, but what was the budger of those 10 hours compared to HBO's budget for GoT?

In some good news, next week's episode is going to be 10 minutes longer. Apparently they have a lot to get through.

H.B.M.C. wrote:In some good news, next week's episode is going to be 10 minutes longer. Apparently they have a lot to get through.

well Joffery has to get dressed for that wedding

@ Joey, If HBo condensed it to 2 hours or so they would lose so much detail it pretty much would be unrecognisable,

and the plots don't change too much..

Dany's
Second in line for the Targaryens, Get sold to Khal Drogo so her brother has an army. Her brother then severely pisses off Khal drogo. Dany is now the Targaryen Heir. Khal drogo dies and Dothraki culture doesn't let women rule so the warriors leave under Khal Pogo. All of Drogo's possessions are put in his funeral pyre which causes the dragon eggs to hatch,

Ned's
Goes to King's Landing to become Hand. Investigates his predecessors' death and discovers what got him killed. Confronts Cersei with the knowledge after she offs Robert. gets shafted first by Cersei when he tries to implement Stannis to be King and secondly when Joffery shows how insane he is.

These really are the main ones in Season 1. Robb calls Neds Banners to get him freed and Jon is on the wall and investigating the Others.

Not much more to it, it's story progression. It's like in LoTR the "plot changes" when Frodo leaves the shire and when the fellowship breaks up,

I don't mind the twists and turns - and the TV show is I feel better than the books as the books have too many disperate chacrters who I don't care about - the new books are terrible for this - bring back people I have no interest in and spending time on them rather than the one i am interested in - like Dany - although I her arc in the new books is also pretty awful.

Alot of the streamlinnig in the tv show does work but several bits are problematic - the present arc with Jon is pretty dull and (as in the books) his wolf seems to vanish at the worst times...........

well for those with facebook GOT is coming to play.

http://www.facebook.com/GameOfThronesAscent

biccat wrote:[
Once you've read the first 5 books or so you realize that the entire war in Westeros is not the main story. The main story is the battle between the forces of "ice" (the Others) and the forces of "fire" (Dragons).
.

Thats not really the impression I got. Most of the story has went into the Game of Thrones or fallout characters from that story (Arya and Sansa). As far as I'am aware the Others haven't really been introduced properly and we know next to nothing about them. Plus, Melisandre, Dondarion and Stannis are the only real pushers of the forces of fire. Daenerys knows nothing about the others or her own part to play in A Song of Ice and Fire. Most of her plot is about her prooving herself as a ruler and conqueror in the East; as well as learning to tame her growing dragons. Which apparently, at some point in the final book or the far future of the 41st millenium is going to culminate in her getting to Westeros and throwing her lot into the Game of Thrones. I get what you mean and it is there; but I think he has left it as an undertone to be resolved in the final book.

ps I really do not like how GRR Martin is cramming Danny going back to Westeros into the final book. She knows jack about Westeros and apart from a handfull of people who've popped up at her court she has no real clue even about who her friends and foes are. If Martin is going to add a big high fantasy battle and possibly a religious element to what Danny is doing then its really going to be anti-climactic after all this build up if Danny simply walks in Dues Ex Machina style and wins. Even if it isn't, the fight is gonna be pretty brief if you have to resolve everything in the last book. IMO the point of that character was that she was learning to be a ruler to TAKE THE IRON THRONE and PLAY THE GAME OF THRONES; not conquer the East (which nobody cares about) then have those things as after-thoughts. Even if the last book is two part like Storm of Swords (which did a lot I'll admit) I just don't see the need for book six to be (hopefully) about her wrapping things up in the East.

Totalwar1402 wrote:

biccat wrote:[
Once you've read the first 5 books or so you realize that the entire war in Westeros is not the main story. The main story is the battle between the forces of "ice" (the Others) and the forces of "fire" (Dragons).
.

Thats not really the impression I got. Most of the story has went into the Game of Thrones or fallout characters from that story (Arya and Sansa). As far as I'am aware the Others haven't really been introduced properly and we know next to nothing about them. Plus, Melisandre, Dondarion and Stannis are the only real pushers of the forces of fire. Daenerys knows nothing about the others or her own part to play in A Song of Ice and Fire. Most of her plot is about her prooving herself as a ruler and conqueror in the East; as well as learning to tame her growing dragons. Which apparently, at some point in the final book or the far future of the 41st millenium is going to culminate in her getting to Westeros and throwing her lot into the Game of Thrones. I get what you mean and it is there; but I think he has left it as an undertone to be resolved in the final book.

ps I really do not like how GRR Martin is cramming Danny going back to Westeros into the final book. She knows jack about Westeros and apart from a handfull of people who've popped up at her court she has no real clue even about who her friends and foes are. If Martin is going to add a big high fantasy battle and possibly a religious element to what Danny is doing then its really going to be anti-climactic after all this build up if Danny simply walks in Dues Ex Machina style and wins. Even if it isn't, the fight is gonna be pretty brief if you have to resolve everything in the last book. IMO the point of that character was that she was learning to be a ruler to TAKE THE IRON THRONE and PLAY THE GAME OF THRONES; not conquer the East (which nobody cares about) then have those things as after-thoughts. Even if the last book is two part like Storm of Swords (which did a lot I'll admit) I just don't see the need for book six to be (hopefully) about her wrapping things up in the East.

You know there are two books left to be written, right, not just one? The Winds of Winter is next and the final book is A Dream of Spring, so Martin has bit more time to resolve everything.

Winds of Winter is going to be Danny wrapping up things in the East. At the end of Dance with Dragons she is with the Dothraki and several cities armies are converging on Mereen. She also has the Warlocks out there to deal with. Thats a lot of stuff. Effectively Danny has to conquer all of the Eastern continent and thats before she considers getting a fleet. Even Victarion does not have enough ships to bring all of the Dothraki and Unsullied and Free Companies over. Maybe Bravos (Venice) and its arsenal but thats just another place to coerce into joining her. So effectively the very last book is going to be her getting to Westeros just as the series is going to be dominated by the conflict with the others and everyone is wrapping things up.

Why does everyone keep mentioning book six when Dance with Dragons is pretty clear that she is staying in the East for a long time? Its not like it ended with her fleet sailing off to Westeros. A lot of uneccesary plot points needed to be resolved involving the East and shes not going to leave half way into it. Its an obvious cliffhanger to put into your story.

Chances are Dany won't conquer the whole East but will charge to westeros to support Young Griif's Claim (Forgot his real name )

As it stands most of the important people in the east want her dead.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Winds of Winter is going to be Danny wrapping up things in the East. At the end of Dance with Dragons she is with the Dothraki and several cities armies are converging on Mereen. She also has the Warlocks out there to deal with. Thats a lot of stuff. Effectively Danny has to conquer all of the Eastern continent and thats before she considers getting a fleet. Even Victarion does not have enough ships to bring all of the Dothraki and Unsullied and Free Companies over. Maybe Bravos (Venice) and its arsenal but thats just another place to coerce into joining her. So effectively the very last book is going to be her getting to Westeros just as the series is going to be dominated by the conflict with the others and everyone is wrapping things up.

Why does everyone keep mentioning book six when Dance with Dragons is pretty clear that she is staying in the East for a long time? Its not like it ended with her fleet sailing off to Westeros. A lot of uneccesary plot points needed to be resolved involving the East and shes not going to leave half way into it. Its an obvious cliffhanger to put into your story.

Agreed - although she is not yet really with the Dothraki - she is only with her Dragon I was hoping that the 5th book would have progressed her story alot more - and allied her with Tyrion....to conquer the East. Book five was a bit too much filler for me - especially since we had to wait so long for it. I would rather she had been closer to previous books and maybe followed the advice of her sometime sellsword lover and the Shaveplate in how to rule the city. Open the pits, and feed any captured Sons of the Harpy to her children.........let them perish in fire and blood

So, is anyone else thinking of getting their friends together, going out to a bar and singing the 'Rains of Castamere' as a group?!

It does seem like a good pub song!

season 2 finally, Meh.

I was hoping they'd embellish the white walkers attacking the nights watch and make that the focus of the episode. I know it was trueish to the book, but come on, everyone loves a good zombie rampage through the townfolk

I guess they spent the last of the budge on the battle for kings landing. and all they had left for the nights watch was 3 guys and some zombies

So, I have a question. Who burned Winterfell? Was it the guys that came to save them?
Or the 20 guys who could clearly be trusted to watch your house while you where out lead by Theon?

The white Walker that stares down Sam looked Epic.


But the finally proved they don't care about Dany's story what so ever

I thought I was doing OK keeping up with all peripheral storylines, but this finale had me confused. Why exactly is Sansa still in King's Landing? The last episode strongly implied that she was going to run off with the Hound. There was bedlam. Bedlam is perfect for escaping. Ask Arya. But now we're back to backstabbing and courtly intrigue---natural enemies of the clean escape. Oops.

And like alarmingrick asked, who burned Winterfell? If it was the 20 Iron-Islanders, fine. They didn't really give any previous indication they wanted to burn Winterfell...but, sure, why not. But if that's the case, why did Bran and Rickon need to flee to the Wall? Weren't the baddies on their way out? And didn't the Starks have a friendly army waiting outside the gates? Now if it was that "friendly army" who burned Winterfell...why wasn't a bigger deal made of that unexpected betrayal?

For me, the highlight of the episode wasn't White Walkers or Dragons, it was Theon getting bonked on the head. Here's hoping season 3 expands on the bonking.

whigwam wrote:I thought I was doing OK keeping up with all peripheral storylines, but this finale had me confused. Why exactly is Sansa still in King's Landing? The last episode strongly implied that she was going to run off with the Hound. There was bedlam. Bedlam is perfect for escaping. Ask Arya. But now we're back to backstabbing and courtly intrigue---natural enemies of the clean escape. Oops.

And like alarmingrick asked, who burned Winterfell? If it was the 20 Iron-Islanders, fine. They didn't really give any previous indication they wanted to burn Winterfell...but, sure, why not. But if that's the case, why did Bran and Rickon need to flee to the Wall? Weren't the baddies on their way out? And didn't the Starks have a friendly army waiting outside the gates? Now if it was that "friendly army" who burned Winterfell...why wasn't a bigger deal made of that unexpected betrayal?

For me, the highlight of the episode wasn't White Walkers or Dragons, it was Theon getting bonked on the head. Here's hoping season 3 expands on the bonking.

whigwam wrote:IFor me, the highlight of the episode wasn't White Walkers or Dragons, it was Theon getting bonked on the head. Here's hoping season 3 expands on the bonking.

Without any spoilers (which are sort of impossible anyway, since the show so greatly diverges from the books) - suffice it to say a great many people eventually get their richly deserved comeuppance.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:The white Walker that stares down Sam looked Epic.


But the finally proved they don't care about Dany's story what so ever

Dany's story involves far too many random cast editions/guest appearences if you go directly by the book. (Her various visions alone would have required at least 6+ additional actors and all that entails)
Granted they've done a few changes I wasn't a huge fan of, (killing off Irri, Rhokaro & her Silver), but seriously, that whole vision experence in the House of Dust would have been a total cluster for everyone who hasn't read the books.

I've never gotten the impression that the producers 'dont' care' about Dany's story, they're simply doing the best they can on a very, very tight budget & limited resources.


Anyways, for next season, already confirmed cast addtions include;

Experiment 626 wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:The white Walker that stares down Sam looked Epic.


But the finally proved they don't care about Dany's story what so ever

Dany's story involves far too many random cast editions/guest appearences if you go directly by the book. (Her various visions alone would have required at least 6+ additional actors and all that entails)
Granted they've done a few changes I wasn't a huge fan of, (killing off Irri, Rhokaro & her Silver), but seriously, that whole vision experence in the House of Dust would have been a total cluster for everyone who hasn't read the books.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Anyways, for next season, already confirmed cast addtions include;

Spoiler:

The Reeds, Bryden the Blackfish, Edmer Tully, Manse Raider and iirc, Thoros as well as few others I can't recall right now.

i always pictured Mance as played by the guy who played king Theodan in LoTR

I wonder what the cost for Bath Salts was in that final episode.

Was it just me or did the Dragons look more cartoony and "cute" than before. They seemed to have much larger humanlike eyes and show genuine affection. Which is kind of appropraite I guess. When is she actually going to name the things?

I'm just looking forward to the duel between the Viper and the Mountain!