Alamo GT, May 14-15 in San Antonio, TX (Army Pictures Added!)

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**ChainswordHeretic**

jwolf wrote:
SonsofVulkan wrote:If Alamo, wargamecon and all the other GTs got rid of sportsmanship scores do you think less people will come to tournaments? probably not...

But if they got rid of painting scores... then that might be a problem.

Wargamescon actually is not scoring anything except battle and paint towards overall this year. That said, exceptionally poor sportsmanship will gain the special "get off of my lawn" award to anyone exhibiting it from yours truly.

So, you are telling Chris Carlile that his services as a judge will no longer be needed?

**LordWynne**

::tosses a large bone to Dash as the Space Wolfs look on::
Sick him!!!!!!....hehehe....run daisy eater....

just foolin around thanks bro hope to see you in San Diego soon....keep woopin butt

**Bunker**

pretre wrote:
Bunker wrote:
Reecius wrote:

(and he has a sterling track record for good rules interpretations)

Except for being wrong about at least 75% of his tyranid rulings.

Or was he?

Considering that the official FAQ contradicted him? Yeah, he was wrong

**SonsofVulkan**

I can already tell Wargamescon is going to be a good event that is has no sportsmanship scores...

**Leenus**

Janthkin wrote:One short response to your argument - who says they want an objective measure? Maybe they want the subjective interpretation to come into play; maybe they want you to have some obligation to help make your opponent enjoy the game.

From the Alamo GT website:

"It is very hard to determine how good or how bad a game was. It's very subjective and different to everyone. However, it is easy to tell if a game was good or bad and pretty much everyone can agree on it, so for the Alamo GT, sportsmanship will focus on if the game was good or bad."

They say on the website that HOW bad or good is what is subjective. However, they use good game / bad game (not how good / how bad), as it is something "pretty much everyone can agree on." A pretty strong logical step is that the system they are focusing on objectivity, if pretty much everyone reaches the same consensus.

Assuming that my response does not appease you, I'd point you to the second part of my long post (about the flawed system). My assumption is that a TO generally wants to improve his tournament to be as good as possible and appeal to as many people as possible, in order to maximize $ profit and participant satisfaction. Using a flawed system (I describe why it's flawed above) creates angry participants which undermines the goal of the TO to run a large, successful, profitable event. I can't stop a TO from wanting to run an average / flawed event and it's fine if a TO is OK with throwing a "pretty good" event. You can throw a "solid" event with the Alamo's sport scoring and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. However, coming from a business background, it doesn't make sense to me to include a system which creates ill will, conflicts of interest and heated debates about the event *IF* I am not getting some greater benefit in return. If the response from the TO was "I believe that absence of sports scoring would negatively impact attendance at my event, compared to WITH sports scoring," I would be open to that response and interested in debating it (as I believe it's false, but at least it's a decent argument). However, usually the argument is "it stops people from being douches" or "we think the system works really well."

People make the suboptimal choice all the time and things generally work out OK. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to improve. That doesn't mean we should continue to make or are justified in making flawed decisions.

**augustus5**

ghazzy69 wrote:Hey guys this is Chris one of the Alamo Indy GT tournie runners.....You know....the extremely good looking model fine conan like sexy stripper wannabe running around like the mad hatter judging painting hahahah. Anyway I just joined this site right now after a ridiculous hour long read on the final Dash/David whatever game hahaha. What a novel. First of all I want to say even us organizers were astounded at how many people turned out and to tell the truth...for a jame crammed 70 person 40k tournie....with 5 hard games...really....there were not alot of serious issues. We enjoyed ourselves immensely and I really didnt meet anyone I didnt like. So we are looking forward to next years and we are also looking forward to the Fantasy Indy tournie we are really known for in November (this was only our 2nd year running the 40k tournie). I do want to say on as positive note as I can that for sure next year we will try to brush up on the rules enough to iron them out ASAP. I do want to thank whomever Smitty0305 is for defending us TOs and saying "dragging the TOs into the mix is sad" cause I was a little bummed about that having happened. But it happens. Just for the record though to whomever it was that said the rules debate went on for 25 plus minutes and then the TOs/judges voted on it....well frankly that is not true in the case of the judges. The argument might have gone on that long who knows....but I was the one called over to look at the ruling and i was literally on in the spot rulling for 3-5 minutes. Done. Period. It was heated before I...we...came over.....and really was hard to understand clearly what all had led up to the debated portion and make a fair ruling as the players and some spectators were heated and arguing. We tried to get kinda as clear a picture as we could with what we heard and make a calling to hopefully get the game back on track but I think at that point it was a bit beyond. Even ther judges were somehwhat being ignored at that point. So anyway .....I think next time what I have learned the problem is/was...is not even the rules question so much as that.....I should have very manlike stopped the argument with no ifs, ands, ors or buts, gotten the side of each with no talking over each other....discussed quickly with 1-2 other judges, made a call, and stopped it from continuing to go further and enforced a hug and kiss policy hahahahaha or crushed the skulls of the arguers between my massive bicep like thews and smiled for the camera!! WOOT! But anyway fellas it is a done deal....its over with...I know most everyone had fun.....we were very pleased with things, you guys will just have to rematch next year. To tell the truth in all honesty I am a big fantasy gamer and I know a lot more 40kers are hot headed and rules lawyerly and I thought it would be alot more discrepancies. I was quite please really and revamped my opinion that tru love CAN EXIST between 40kers hahahahaha.

Welcome to Dakka. In the future please try to break up massive walls of text into paragraphs. It makes them so much easier on the eyes.

**Alfndrate**

Bunker wrote:
pretre wrote:
Bunker wrote:
Reecius wrote:

(and he has a sterling track record for good rules interpretations)

Except for being wrong about at least 75% of his tyranid rulings.

Or was he?

Considering that the official FAQ contradicted him? Yeah, he was wrong

Just for my knowledge, Isn't there like a 'ruling council' that makes up the INAT FAQ decisions?

On Topic: I know that this has been nit-picked to death (like everything else in our hobby) but aren't soft scores supposed to keep the game relaxed? I mean I'm sure some people look at soft scores as a way to just kick their opponent (whether they won or not) in a way to just get a better score? I mean aren't soft scores meant to kinda identify TFG, making sure everyone has fun as much as possible? I mean I've been roflstomped in tournaments before, but even my worst game was still a fun game to play against my opponent.

**Bunker**

Alfndrate wrote:

Just for my knowledge, Isn't there like a 'ruling council' that makes up the INAT FAQ decisions?

Sorry, THEY were wrong. Which is even worse.

**muwhe**

Sorry, THEY were wrong. Which is even worse.

Yep. We were wrong and we will be wrong again.

We were also right and will be right again. Sort of goes with the territory and is part of the process.

On topic .. Good tourney terrain takes time and considerable effort ... and with time .. I'm sure the Alamo crew will address it.

**GoatboyBBMA**

Dash - Darkwynn didn't win - if you read my name it is Goatboy. Come on I am not the "leaf blower" player I made people mad about counts as, as well as wolves hehe.

Yeah I was right around you most of the day - sorry we never got to get a game in. Either way - it is Goatboy

.

**Mannahnin**

Bunker wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:Just for my knowledge, Isn't there like a 'ruling council' that makes up the INAT FAQ decisions?

Sorry, THEY were wrong. Which is even worse.

Oh noes. Human beings made mistakes. Of course, the rulings GW made in that FAQ were totally predictable, and certainly what the rest of us were expecting.

**Blackmoor**

GoatboyBBMA wrote:Dash - Darkwynn didn't win - if you read my name it is Goatboy. Come on I am not the "leaf blower" player I made people mad about counts as, as well as wolves hehe.

Yeah I was right around you most of the day - sorry we never got to get a game in. Either way - it is Goatboy .

I can never tell you two apart either.

**Caldera02**

ChainswordHeretic wrote:
jwolf wrote:
SonsofVulkan wrote:If Alamo, wargamecon and all the other GTs got rid of sportsmanship scores do you think less people will come to tournaments? probably not...

But if they got rid of painting scores... then that might be a problem.

Wargamescon actually is not scoring anything except battle and paint towards overall this year. That said, exceptionally poor sportsmanship will gain the special "get off of my lawn" award to anyone exhibiting it from yours truly.

So, you are telling Chris Carlile that his services as a judge will no longer be needed?

What does not having sportsmanship scores have to do with judging? Games will still need to be judged. However, we've talked it over and games will not be decided by a dice roll. I will say this though, if I am nearby a game with Dash, I will just go get another judge as my judgement would obviously be biased. And there will be a need for judges around Dash's games...

**LordWynne**

Ummm I won?......lol to be serious not I was not there Dash and Dakka bro's and sisters....Dash had to much rum again and will feel better in the morning...::stashing the winners trophy in my back pack:: nothing to see here folks just a drunk man that needs assistance.

**winterman**

Mannahnin wrote:
Bunker wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:Just for my knowledge, Isn't there like a 'ruling council' that makes up the INAT FAQ decisions?

Sorry, THEY were wrong. Which is even worse.

Oh noes. Human beings made mistakes. Of course, the rulings GW made in that FAQ were totally predictable, and certainly what the rest of us were expecting.

So true. If the Tyranid FAQ is 'right', then what the hell is 'wrong'? Psychic Hoods working against psychers in transports, that's what. Or any other host of Tyranid only screwings in that FAQ.

But again, people make mistakes, even the GW dev team.

**Dashofpepper**

Caldera02 wrote:

What does not having sportsmanship scores have to do with judging? Games will still need to be judged. However, we've talked it over and games will not be decided by a dice roll. I will say this though, if I am nearby a game with Dash, I will just go get another judge as my judgement would obviously be biased. And there will be a need for judges around Dash's games...

*bites his tongue*

**reds8n**

**WarOne**

reds8n wrote:

This is so totally trolling.

I'm going to alert a moderator that a moderator...just....trolled....yeah.

Well good for Dash for taking the high road. As I have stated before, everyone needs to move past this as best they could.

**whitedragon**

Dashofpepper wrote:
Caldera02 wrote:

What does not having sportsmanship scores have to do with judging? Games will still need to be judged. However, we've talked it over and games will not be decided by a dice roll. I will say this though, if I am nearby a game with Dash, I will just go get another judge as my judgement would obviously be biased. And there will be a need for judges around Dash's games...

*bites his tongue*

WarOne wrote:
reds8n wrote:

This is so totally trolling.

I'm going to alert a moderator that a moderator...just....trolled....yeah.

Well good for Dash for taking the high road. As I have stated before, everyone needs to move past this as best they could.

Typing *bites his tongue* is not "taking the high road. If he really wanted to simply take the high road, he wouldn't post to obvious troll and flame posts, he'd let it be.

**WarOne**

whitedragon wrote:Typing *bites his tongue* is not "taking the high road. If he really wanted to simply take the high road, he wouldn't post to obvious troll and flame posts, he'd let it be.

And I think that this was him taking the high road relative to his other posts.

**mike_houghton98**

Why cant we all get along lol?

I have played in a lot of national and worlds tournaments for other games and the level of buttheadary and bickering is never as high as it is here.

Is it just the internet that makes everyone seem to be at each others throats? When the people in my state (WV) play it never ends with all this drama.

Dash thanks for all the pictures. Its obvious you have a love and dedication to this game.

**muwhe**

Is it just the internet that makes everyone seem to be at each others throats?

Yes. The untold story for most events is that the vast majority of people have a great time, never played Dash, knew Dash was there or I'm guessing cared one way or another if he gain 2" of pivot movement, crushed face, went 5-0, cheated, or caught people cheating, got a penalty for subjective sportsmanship, had some gain from lack of soft scores, was drunk, sober, a raving madman or helped some little old lady across the street etc...

It is internet drama that unfortunately for those of us that are in the internet coverage realm seems at times overshadow the greater more important story. A large number of people gathering together and enjoying the hobby free of real life concerns and work. All those people are not going to login here and tell that story. What they will do, if the event was a great time, is tell their friends and return next year in greater numbers regardless of what is said on the internet.

**johnbailey**

Muhwe, if you don't run a tournament you should. Well said.

--
john

**Danny Internets**

whitedragon wrote:
Typing *bites his tongue* is not "taking the high road. If he really wanted to simply take the high road, he wouldn't post to obvious troll and flame posts, he'd let it be.

Does not the Buddha teach us that it is the middle road that leads to enlightenment?

**pretre**

Mannahnin wrote:
Bunker wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:Just for my knowledge, Isn't there like a 'ruling council' that makes up the INAT FAQ decisions?

Sorry, THEY were wrong. Which is even worse.

Oh noes. Human beings made mistakes. Of course, the rulings GW made in that FAQ were totally predictable, and certainly what the rest of us were expecting.

M beat me to it. In this case, I think you'll find INAT made the more reasonable calls. It just so happen that GW wanted to crush the Tyranid codex.

**AgeOfEgos**

johnbailey wrote:
Muhwe, if you don't run a tournament you should. Well said.
--
john

Oh, he runs this little tournament every year that my group travels to----it's Adepticon

.

And kudos to the organizers coming on here, taking criticism with hat in hand and a smile----and stating how they plan to improve the event. I'm sure it was a great time for the vast, silent majority and welcome to Dakka.

**johnbailey**

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Oh, he runs this little tournament every year that my group travels to----it's Adepticon .

That explains the sage wisdom. LOL, sorry haven't been on Dakka enough to know people by their handles.

--
john

**Dashofpepper**

I wish internet drama would die in a fire.

Much of the reason I stopped writing battle reports for so long.

**pretre**

Dashofpepper wrote:I wish internet drama would die in a fire.

Much of the reason I stopped writing battle reports for so long.

Dash, I know we have not always agreed, but...

You have gained a reputation at this point, rightfully or not. If you are truly interested in avoiding Internet Drama, you are going to take some pretty big steps to avoid it going forward. I jokingly suggested a camera/tape recorder at games, but I'm not sure it isn't a bad idea. More importantly and realistically though, I would analyze the complaints that players have had from your games and take them very seriously. Whether they are right, wrong or false, they provide valuable insight into why people are coming at you.

- If people don't like your conversions/models, use different ones (you're already getting new venoms, so this is fixed).
- If people don't like the pivoting thing, ask before the game starts and if they aren't down, just don't do it. Yes, I know it is legal and such, but you very much have to be the bigger man.
- Learn to gauge your opponent better. Not everyone wants to know about how to up their game or why / how they aren't competitive. Although this may come from a good place, it can sound like you are talking down to them.
- I know trash talking is fun, but people take this wrong sometimes, gauge your audience. To some, this is a good time; to others, this is you being condescending or drunk.
- Stop letting things slide, but do it in a nice way. I know the intent of you allowing people to get away with things, to make for less friction. But it comes across really badly when you say 'Cheat all you want, I'll beat you anyway' (Not that you say this at the table, but it is implied when you don't call someone on something.) Instead, find a nice way to hold your opponent accountable for their actions. I'm sure we can open a discussion for this separately.
- Don't respond to internet drama. If someone calls you out for something that happened at a GT, respond with a canned response. i.e. "XXXX, thank you for your game at XXX GT. In the interest of a civil dialogue, I have posted how I remember the game in XXX Battle Report Thread. I apologize if there were any misunderstandings which reduced your enjoyment of our game and would be happy to discuss any specific points in person when next we are at a GT together."

TLDR: Learn from this if you really don't like Internet Drama. You may not be at fault in the individual circumstances, but it is at the point that if you do nothing to fix it, you are at fault for letting it continue.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot one:
- Keep your BR's neutral voiced. I would only discuss the actual moves, results, etc. If your opponent wanted a takeback, took extra movement, was a jerkface, set your list on fire and danced in the ashes, don't include that. It only causes problems later.

**warboss**

Dashofpepper wrote:I wish internet drama would die in a fire.

Much of the reason I stopped writing battle reports for so long.

Agree with pretre. Considering that your multiple episodes of internet drama only had two things in common (you and 40k... and I don't think the game system is the key link), you may want to tone it down a bit as people only seem to have two reactions to meeting you without much middle ground inbetween love and hate. I've met you in person and frankly you made a negative first impression (which changed my attitude here on dakka towards you). And, no, to all the naysayers, it wasn't because he kicked my butt in a game as we never played in that tourney; it was from simply chatting 20 minutes or so before/inbetween games. (The person who did actually kick my butt gave me fav opponent so I must not have taken it too badly.) Lol, within 30 seconds of meeting me you were asking me for my army list and starting commenting negatively on it. And this was at the relative start of your 40k period when you didn't have the wins to back something brash like that up.

Also, for almost a year, you had a link in your sig to your biggest internet drama where you where as a result of the drama you were told you weren't welcome in most stores in your area in Florida (and the same thing happened in the Carolinas from your own self reported stories). You recently deleted the direct links to the story from your sig but you placed it there (and put it up on a separate blog) after your clearly trolling thread about it was locked here on dakka. Those are *NOT* the actions of someone who abhores internet drama. I'm not telling you to throw games to gain people's favor but being a top gun 40k player means that people will come gunning aggressively for you. Add in a polarizing personality like yours that tends to escalate conflict instead of resolving it and a bit of booze and you've got drama.