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Perkustin wrote:It is not ISLAM's treatment of women, it is Arabic culture's treatment of women, look it up. Some 'open minded' people can often be very ignorant of the charitable and peaceful teachings of the Koran

To attempt to divorce Arabic culture from Islam is foolish. It is even more foolish to attempt to point to one particularly enlightened or 'charitable' teaching and imply that because that section exists, the other sections must be of equal merit. Especially in light of the many misogynistic and violent verses that can be found in the Qu'ran, that are taught widely across the Middle East.

Perkustin wrote:it is ignorant in the extreme to believe they should just conform to your own ideals.

Why? You're demanding he adhere to your doctrine that he should not expect others to conform to his doctrine. By your own words then, you've just damned yourself as ignorant.

Perkustin wrote:Perhaps do some research next time you move

Implying he did not? That he just casually switched countries on a whim? Considering in the time I've been on this board, I've followed MGS, his thoughts on America, and the process of his move, I think such a comment is more indicative of your general lack of knowledge with regards to his circumstance than anything. Unless of course, you were trying to be witty, and boost your own E-peen by slapping him down. I'll be charitable, presume the best of human nature, and assume the former.

Incidentally, it's spelt 'droll', not 'drole'

Perkustin, I'm going to indulge you one response to your personal attack, then I think you and I are done talking as your words have cast you in a very poor light.

Perkustin wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:http://www.vimeo.com/23836285

America is a different culture, it is ignorant in the extreme to believe they should just conform to your own ideals. You aren't helping things by making such flawed moany arguments. America welcomed you, dont bite the hand that feeds. You want to make a difference? Volunteer at the homeless shelter/youth club, join a union. Join up as a canvasser for Obama for goodness sake!

What individual believes that their ideals are not worth others abiding by? I find it either humorous or moronic than you should then proceed to tell me how to live and conduct myself, presumably in order to meet your expectations...

I'm also curious as to what you know of my life and how I conduct it that you would know that I do none of these things already.

Perkustin wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
This is a short promotional film seeking a budget to be made into a full film documentary.

I myself, as a person who believes strongly in tolerance and cultural exchange, have my own problems with Islam with regards it's treatment of women and it's extremist applications in parts of the world.

It is not ISLAM's treatment of women, it is Arabic culture's treatment of women, look it up. Some 'open minded' people can often be very ignorant of the charitable and peaceful teachings of the Koran

I have debated the treatment of women and their place within the Islamic religion for a great many pages on this forum, the Qu'ran clearly states the secondary placement of women and their treatment as second class citizens can be witnessed across the Islamic world. You see I have 'looked it up' and infact known a good many muslims in my life. Some of them were women escaping violent domestic situations who came from several parts of the world, I tutored them and was told their histories, including how the muslim community around them endorsed their treatment. I will not start a further discussion down that line but the old debate is here if you search for it.

Perkustin wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

But this level of intolerance leaves me boggled, what happened to the separation of church and state? And why is there such a rabid hatred of liberal views in the US, having moved to PA, I have been told by people who never stopped to ask me my own views, that liberals 'should be rounded up and shot', that environmentalists 'are all backed by the communists and are enemies of the nation'.

America is a christian democracy, Christianity is a far bigger part of their culture, Homer Simpson Goes to church every week, live with it. I mean come on, is Barack Obama an Athiest?! As for the hatred of liberals, As long as people from the Maccarthy/cold war era survive their is always going to be a kernel of that sentiment. Only time will heal some wounds

I would suggest you read the constitution or at least wiki it to possess some grasp of the deep set foundation established to keep the United States from becoming a religiously controlled nation. I also suggest you consider the words of the founding fathers on the nature of religion and it's involvement with mortal power.

Perkustin wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
The vast majority of the population of the US are descended from immigrants of the last 300 years, it is a mixing bowl of peoples from across the planet.

You have made the common mistake of thinking this should make them more open minded, if anything their brutal colonisation and proto ethnic cleansing should make them infintely more intolerant than they are

So I'm making a 'common mistake' but you then go on to make a fairly radicalised and bizarre equation to the opposite. I can show you that in comparison to the rest of the world, the US has a very open and tolerant law and administration.

Perkustin wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I said to my wife the other night, that the US is at it's most amazing and beautiful when it unites, when it uses that hybrid vigour to do great things and when it leads the rest of the world into doing great things and it is at it's nadir when it finds it's self so absolutely divided, much as I have seen recently over politics and faith.

How very drole, plus since last time i checked their has been no civil wars

I don't really get what you mean, but if you are suggesting that it's ok as noone is shooting anyone yet, I can only say that it's been a distinct and unpleasant thing to watch the division in communities here along lines of political belief.

Perkustin wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I moved over here, rather than my American wife moving to the UK, partly because of the bright optimism I had encountered in the US, the people believed in their country and in doing 'the right thing' and in 'freedom for all'. It was a refreshing change to the jaded post-imperial cynical hangover that we have in the UK. But that brightness has dimmed a very great deal in the past couple of years and the country feels so deeply divided and at loggerheads.

Perhaps do some research next time you move

This is just trite and pointless sniping. I waited for almost year after we were married to be here with my wife as my permanent residency visa was approved, we were 3 years before that in a long distance relationship consisting of transatlantic travelling and the wonder of skype. We discussed which way we would move for all that time. That you dare to presume I moved here on a whim, that I gave up my family, friends, career and country without 'looking into it' is crass and moronic. You win no points from this.

Perkustin wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I saw a pickup truck yesterday with a bumper sticker that read 'Don't Re Nig in 2012 Get him out!' and can't really believe that not only does some ignorant bastard manufacture that, but that some other ignorant bastard would proudly display it. At first I was my usual vitriolic self and angry, then, just saddened and tired by it. It made me want to go home to the riots and class divisions of the UK.

Admittedly the use of an offensive word is not necessary but there are numerous reasons why even the wooliest liberal would not want to see a fairly toothless president re elected

So your defending the sticker and it's use as understandable, because, in your opinion, Obama is 'toothless'. So, it's ok to be racist towards someone on the premise that they aren't sharp enough for you.

Pathetic.

Perkustin wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Whether from the right or left, you are so much better than this. Will we see a return to more agreeable politics and a less divided nation or should Mrs S and I start looking into moving to Canada?

As a final point i see absolutely NO mention of the drug, unemployment and crime epidemics as well as the overpopulated prisons. Clearly you aren't as worried about the vulnerable and impoverished as you imply. More about 'Mrs S and I's' relative safety and comfort as middle class liberals

When was this thread, the short film I linked or any of the points anyone else raised about drugs or crime? I didn't raise the issue of the American Condor's plight either, should I be chastised for that?

You know absolutely nothing about my life yet are willing to make these sweeping generalised insults.

As a final note, there is nothing middle class or liberal about the 'relative safety' of my wife. I would die for her and most certainly kill for her. That isn't class or political angle, that is fact.

Ketara wrote:

Perkustin wrote:It is not ISLAM's treatment of women, it is Arabic culture's treatment of women, look it up. Some 'open minded' people can often be very ignorant of the charitable and peaceful teachings of the Koran

To attempt to divorce Arabic culture from Islam is foolish.

The largest population of Muslims is in Asia.

Just saying you're incorrect on that one. I'm not going to touch the comparitive violent and misognystic teachings between the Old Books with a ten-foot pole.

You know that 99.9% of mexicans are catholic right, its not like they sacrifice cattle to appease Cthulu. We have a lot of Catholics in the states, sure the government is mostly protestant and baptist, but there are a lot of Catholics(John F. Kennedy being the only Catholic president) who are citizens.

Their culture isn't too different from ours, they work hard for what they earn and I think that illegals should be made legal if they have good character so at least they can earn more. Not to get too much on the whole skin color thing, but yes there are people who hate them just because of skin color but those people will be in the minority soon.

Its not too different, this IS Texas culture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:

dogma wrote:

Polonius wrote:
It's also part of the reason intellectuals tend to run more liberal: they know that no matter what the game is, they've got skills and abilities that will allow them to compete.

Yep.

Though, there are also a lot of people like me who are sufficiently insulated to be comfortable no matter what happens (short of an armed revolt, though that's why you make friends in other countries), and therefore only view politics as a wonderful game.

I hear that. I'm a professional class straight white guy. I'm going to be ok, personally, with whoever is in charge.

Unless its an American Pol Pot or Robespierre of course.

Judging all of Islam by how it's practiced in the Arab world would be like judging all of Christianity by how it's practiced in Russia.

Meaning, there are huge regional and doctrinal variations.

The current Islamic sects in the Middle East tend to be fundamentalist, not out of tradition, but out of a concious rejections of Western Ideals.

The religion might change, when you look at Judaism or Christianity there's plenty of stuff we don't pay much attention to anymore in our texts.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Ketara wrote:

Perkustin wrote:It is not ISLAM's treatment of women, it is Arabic culture's treatment of women, look it up. Some 'open minded' people can often be very ignorant of the charitable and peaceful teachings of the Koran

To attempt to divorce Arabic culture from Islam is foolish.

The largest population of Muslims is in Asia.

Just saying you're incorrect on that one. I'm not going to touch the comparitive violent and misognystic teachings between the Old Books with a ten-foot pole.

Polonius wrote:Judging all of Islam by how it's practiced in the Arab world would be like judging all of Christianity by how it's practiced in Russia.

I'm not 'judging' Islam at all. Neither is it relevant where the largest populations of Muslims in the world are.

My point was that attempting to separate Islam and arabic culture into two distinct separate entities is at best impossible, and at worst, stupid. Arabic culture is thoroughly interlinked with and influenced by Islam, and has been for a damn long time. You cannot place all the misogynistic aspects into a box called 'Arabic Culture' and claim that Islam has nothing to do with it.

It should be noted that practically everywhere in the world is misogynistic, or has only fairly recently retreated from a position of misogynism.

The UK achieved universal suffrage for over-21s only in 1928. The Equal Pay Act was passed only in 1970. First woman prime minister in 1979.

We still have problems with women priests today, in the second decade of the 21st century.

Ketara wrote:

Polonius wrote:Judging all of Islam by how it's practiced in the Arab world would be like judging all of Christianity by how it's practiced in Russia.

I'm not 'judging' Islam at all. Neither is it relevant where the largest populations of Muslims in the world are.

My point was that attempting to separate Islam and arabic culture into two distinct separate entities is at best impossible, and at worst, stupid. Arabic culture is thoroughly interlinked with and influenced by Islam, and has been for a damn long time. You cannot place all the misogynistic aspects into a box called 'Arabic Culture' and claim that Islam has nothing to do with it.

If by "arabic culture" you mean the arabic culture of the 8th-10th centuries, i'd agree. But by this point, the muslim populations of southeast asia in particular aren't exactly taking their cue from modern arabic culture.

Judaism was influenced by ancient israeli culture, but Jews in Brooklyn aren't patterning their life of of current israeli culture.

Hence my comment. Christianity has outgrown it's initial culture to a greater extent (plus has had seven more centuries, and spread quicker once it romanized), but Islam is also different now than when practiced by medieval arabs.

Actually there are some Jews that do pattern their life around ancient traditions. There's a line that they wanted to set up in Jersey that allows them to do things on the sabbath that they usually don't do or something along those lines. It was on the Colbert Report or Daily Show last month I believe.

Islam itself is practiced differently by some people, there are still honor killings and stonings that happen but those for the most part aren't really the majority, or at least I hope are no longer the majority. There are also countries that practice Sharia Law and are more theocracies than anything else.

The Phillipines has a muslim population with some good and some bad, the bad do the terrorist style attacks their middle eastern brethren carry out.

As far as muslims living in Asia... the Middle East is a part of Asia.

I thought this thread was on immigration in general, not Islamic beliefs. But this topic was bound to be brought up, so here's my view:
Judging a religion by the books it follows and the views of some of its followers is completely pointless. The books, because every religious text will contradict itself on numerous occasions, and will be followed in many different ways. There are muslims who read every hateful, controversial statement in the Qu'ran, and ones who ignore those and focus on ones that appeal to them. Religions rarely influence people's views, only give excuses to acting on their existing ones. For example, the Qu'ran can be interpreted as saying to kill all non-believers. People who hate the West will use this to justify things such as suicide bombing. But the suicide bombers then forget the verse which says not to kill, and the verse which says not to commit suicide. These are followed by other people who believe that these fundementalists are wrong.

Anyway, this is why I believe judging Islam based on the actions of a select few is like judging the Christians by what Hitler did: you are saying they're automatically the same as someone who most likely has nothing to do with them. Instead, judge them as individuals. Then the less extreme ones won't get firebombed, and the extremists will still be hated.

Oh, and just because I know I'm probably spewing crap, half the Qu'ran is pretty much copy/paste from the Bible, which is copy/paste from the Torah. They all have pretty much the same views as eachother.

Don't forget the Hindu and Buddhist teachings that have parallels in the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran.

Speaking of muslims, I had a woman come into the store wearing a full body dress and a hijab. Outside of the fact that the dress was an ugly gray and the hijab a bright red I had no problems with it. I mean if you're going to follow your religious doctrine at least have some kind of fashion sense.

Polonius wrote:

Ketara wrote:

Polonius wrote:Judging all of Islam by how it's practiced in the Arab world would be like judging all of Christianity by how it's practiced in Russia.

I'm not 'judging' Islam at all. Neither is it relevant where the largest populations of Muslims in the world are.

My point was that attempting to separate Islam and arabic culture into two distinct separate entities is at best impossible, and at worst, stupid. Arabic culture is thoroughly interlinked with and influenced by Islam, and has been for a damn long time. You cannot place all the misogynistic aspects into a box called 'Arabic Culture' and claim that Islam has nothing to do with it.

If by "arabic culture" you mean the arabic culture of the 8th-10th centuries, i'd agree. But by this point, the muslim populations of southeast asia in particular aren't exactly taking their cue from modern arabic culture.

Judaism was influenced by ancient israeli culture, but Jews in Brooklyn aren't patterning their life of of current israeli culture.

Hence my comment. Christianity has outgrown it's initial culture to a greater extent (plus has had seven more centuries, and spread quicker once it romanized), but Islam is also different now than when practiced by medieval arabs.

Sure.

Still doesn't alter the fact though, that trying to disassociate modern arabic culture and Islam is nigh on impossible.

Sigh. When talking about Arab Muslims, sure.

I'm not sure what the connection between modern Saudi Arabia and, say, Malaysia is.

Malaysia has jungles and Saudi Arabia has sand?

halonachos wrote:Malaysia has jungles and Saudi Arabia has sand?

They're both really really hot?

Polonius wrote:Sigh. When talking about Arab Muslims, sure.

I'm not sure what the connection between modern Saudi Arabia and, say, Malaysia is.

I have no idea either. And I'm really not too sure what you're arguing with here.

Considering the statement that was being debated with blamed 'Arabic culture', for misogynism in the middle-east, and said that was was the culprit instead of Islam, I'm really not certain what Malaysia necessarily has to do with me raising an eyebrow over the attempted disassociation of those two things,.

Somebody had said that you can't seperate arabic culture from islam. I was merely saying that was true really in, well, arab cultures, but not in non-arab cultures.

Polonius wrote:Somebody had said that you can't seperate arabic culture from islam. I was merely saying that was true really in, well, arab cultures, but not in non-arab cultures.

In that case, yes that was me.

And no, I don't disagree with your statement. Islam isn't necessarily as key or crucial in the development of many cultures across the world as in Arabic culture.

However, in the case of Arabic culture specifically, the two cannot be disassociated in the way Perkustin seemed to be attempting.

So yes.....

Polonius wrote:Somebody had said that you can't seperate arabic culture from islam. I was merely saying that was true really in, well, arab cultures, but not in non-arab cultures.

Anatolian Turks and Persians don't count? Com oon

Of course these days the distinction between Anatolian Turks, Arabs, and Persians is kind of hard to see from the outside.

Really what should be said is that Middle Eastern culture is inseparable from Islam.

Even then, the difference between turkish islam and, say, Syrian Islam is striking.

LordofHats wrote:

Polonius wrote:Somebody had said that you can't seperate arabic culture from islam. I was merely saying that was true really in, well, arab cultures, but not in non-arab cultures.

Anatolian Turks and Persians don't count? Com oon

Of course these days the distinction between Anatolian Turks, Arabs, and Persians is kind of hard to see from the outside.

.

They are "racially" different people, speak different languages, live under different political systems, have different dress codes, different cuisine. The main thing that is similar about the three groups is Islam, split into Sufi, Sunni and Shia sects (and some others). The proportion of each sect differs between countries.

halonachos wrote:I thought that he was given a choice between death or never teaching again and said something like "An unexamined life is not worth living."

I dunno. I always understood that he could do whatever he wanted once outside of Athens. Not like they could do much anyway if he set up shop in a different locale, especially if it was a powerful state.

To clarify, my point was that all those groups have cultures heavily influenced by Islam and long standing tribal traditions. It's not just the Arabs who are in that boat.

Ketara wrote:

Polonius wrote:Somebody had said that you can't seperate arabic culture from islam. I was merely saying that was true really in, well, arab cultures, but not in non-arab cultures.

In that case, yes that was me.

And no, I don't disagree with your statement. Islam isn't necessarily as key or crucial in the development of many cultures across the world as in Arabic culture.

However, in the case of Arabic culture specifically, the two cannot be disassociated in the way Perkustin seemed to be attempting.

So yes.....

You can, in fact, seperate Arabic culture and Islam, one often heavily features in the other as a matter of fact, but the relationship is by no means exclusive. Take the Arabic populations that are heavily Orthodox Christian, for example.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Ketara wrote:

Polonius wrote:Somebody had said that you can't seperate arabic culture from islam. I was merely saying that was true really in, well, arab cultures, but not in non-arab cultures.

In that case, yes that was me.

And no, I don't disagree with your statement. Islam isn't necessarily as key or crucial in the development of many cultures across the world as in Arabic culture.

However, in the case of Arabic culture specifically, the two cannot be disassociated in the way Perkustin seemed to be attempting.

So yes.....

You can, in fact, seperate Arabic culture and Islam, one often heavily features in the other as a matter of fact, but the relationship is by no means exclusive. Take the Arabic populations that are heavily Orthodox Christian, for example.

That would be another debate in itself. However, happily, its one that we need not have here, due to you missing a key part of my statement. Namely, 'the two cannot be disassociated in the way Perkustin seemed to be attempting', the original statement of which was, 'It is not ISLAM's treatment of women, it is Arabic culture's treatment of women'.

In this particular case, I would argue it utterly implausible to underline all misogynistic aspects of society in the Middle-East, and put them in a box marked, 'Arabic Culture', and have those misogynistic aspects, and how they relate to 'Arabic Culture' be completely unrelated to Islam. It is impossible.

It is possible certainly, to look at a piece of artwork produced in Tehran and not need to associate it with Islam in any way. In such a way could you disassociate Arabic culture from Islam (although it would be possible to argue that Islamic influences may have left an imprint on the artist that influenced his creation).

It is not possible however, to look at the social aspects of Arabic culture in this regard, and disassociate them in the same way.

Ketara wrote:
In this particular case, I would argue it utterly implausible to underline all misogynistic aspects of society in the Middle-East, and put them in a box marked, 'Arabic Culture', and have those misogynistic aspects, and how they relate to 'Arabic Culture' be completely unrelated to Islam. It is impossible.

That depends on how you're using "Islam" . If you're referring to the religion, then its not only possible, its pretty easy. If you're referring to the people that practice the religion, Muslims in other words, its much more difficult.

Its not that hard to look at the Arab world and pick out a set of things that are misogynistic and then look at whether or not they are necessarily the result of Islamic influence; ie. required by Islam, rather than Muslims.

Not to the extent that Perkutsin is claiming, no. But you could only claim that the misognystic aspects if they were a part of Islam itself. For example, the full veil, and only allowing women outside if they are escorted by a male, could be put down to a particular Arabic culture.
On the other hand, stoning the wife for adultery could be accurately described as a part of Christian doctrine, even if it is not widely practiced in cultures that are heavily Christian.


Maybe I'm digressing. My point is that 'Islamic Culture' can only be accurately reduced to it's actual teachings. Anything else that grows around it should be considered as part of that particular culture, even if that culture embraces the tenents of Islam to the point that it can also be considered a part of their culture.

Polonius wrote:Sigh. When talking about Arab Muslims, sure.

I'm not sure what the connection between modern Saudi Arabia and, say, Malaysia is.

We get lots of tourists from Arabia in general. That's about it really.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Ketara wrote:

Polonius wrote:Somebody had said that you can't seperate arabic culture from islam. I was merely saying that was true really in, well, arab cultures, but not in non-arab cultures.

In that case, yes that was me.

And no, I don't disagree with your statement. Islam isn't necessarily as key or crucial in the development of many cultures across the world as in Arabic culture.

However, in the case of Arabic culture specifically, the two cannot be disassociated in the way Perkustin seemed to be attempting.

So yes.....

You can, in fact, seperate Arabic culture and Islam, one often heavily features in the other as a matter of fact, but the relationship is by no means exclusive. Take the Arabic populations that are heavily Orthodox Christian, for example.

But do it quickly. They are getting killed off as we speak.

Frazzled wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Ketara wrote:

Polonius wrote:Somebody had said that you can't seperate arabic culture from islam. I was merely saying that was true really in, well, arab cultures, but not in non-arab cultures.

In that case, yes that was me.

And no, I don't disagree with your statement. Islam isn't necessarily as key or crucial in the development of many cultures across the world as in Arabic culture.

However, in the case of Arabic culture specifically, the two cannot be disassociated in the way Perkustin seemed to be attempting.

So yes.....

You can, in fact, seperate Arabic culture and Islam, one often heavily features in the other as a matter of fact, but the relationship is by no means exclusive. Take the Arabic populations that are heavily Orthodox Christian, for example.

But do it quickly. They are getting killed off as we speak.

Who, the Orthodox Christians? No they're not, though they are emmigrating out of the Middle East. A fair amount of Lebanese Christians have moved to Australia over the years, for example.