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**halonachos**

Mannahnin wrote:
Polonius wrote:It's also part of the reason intellectuals tend to run more liberal: they know that no matter what the game is, they've got skills and abilities that will allow them to compete.

Or believe they do. There are certainly "intellectuals" who are more ivory-tower and whose skills and knowledge are too specialized and limited to have broad application. But I agree with your point. As long as they think they're capable and smart (whether they are or aren't), they're more likely to be egalitarian in their views.

Ayn Rand?

Intellectuals can be both conservative and liberal, hell even though Einstein said that ignorance is what causes racism even though some intellectuals can be racist. I know that you said that intellectuals tend to be liberal so that means you believe that intellectuals can also be conservative. With modern politics though there are so many different kinds of liberals and conservatives that its hard to be just a conservative or just a liberal.

**dogma**

Ayn Rand was libertarian, the libertarian really.

Well, Objectivist, but most people ignore the weird quasi-religious thing.

**alarmingrick**

halonachos wrote: Or worse, you wake up with Dick Cheney next to you.

I think alot of conseratives dream of waking up next to Cheney.
you don't want to wake up with them in your bed, but i don't want them telling people who to go to bed with.
getting the government out of peoples lives also means who they marry and what they do with their bodies is between them
and their own. no one else.

**Polonius**

halonachos wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:
Polonius wrote:It's also part of the reason intellectuals tend to run more liberal: they know that no matter what the game is, they've got skills and abilities that will allow them to compete.

Or believe they do. There are certainly "intellectuals" who are more ivory-tower and whose skills and knowledge are too specialized and limited to have broad application. But I agree with your point. As long as they think they're capable and smart (whether they are or aren't), they're more likely to be egalitarian in their views.

Ayn Rand?

Intellectuals can be both conservative and liberal, hell even though Einstein said that ignorance is what causes racism even though some intellectuals can be racist. I know that you said that intellectuals tend to be liberal so that means you believe that intellectuals can also be conservative. With modern politics though there are so many different kinds of liberals and conservatives that its hard to be just a conservative or just a liberal.

[Insert "I was talking about intellectuals, not Ayn Rand" joke here]

I said tend, I also was suggesting that liberalism is caused by a lack of worry about one's station, not that intellectualism and liberalism share any causality.

Rand is an interesting case because her ideology was a sharp reaction to her upbringing and the nature of politics in the 30's, 40's, and early 50's. But Rand's work, and most of the libertarians one meets, sort of proves my point. The people that want to eliminate safety nets and allow "the best and brightest to lead" are, not coincidentally, peopel that consider themselves the best or brightest. Rant's work, and the objectivist/libertarian movement at it's extremes, isn't really conservatism: it's sharply reactionary. It envisions a society only marginally more realisitc than that envisioned by marxists.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:Ayn Rand was libertarian, the libertarian really.

Well, Objectivist, but most people ignore the weird quasi-religious thing.

It's tough to call a woman that wrote a novel describing the collapse of world civilization in positive ways a conservative.

**halonachos**

I said that you said 'tend' Polonius, I was agreeing with you.

I also said Ayn Rand because I know that a lot of people like to make fun of her. Kind of alledging that Rand was one of those in the 'ivory towers' that thought they were capable.

**Polonius**

It doesn't require an ivory tower even. If a person says to me "I didn't need government aid to get ahead. I got a scholarship to college, worked hard, and now I'm a successful entrepeneur," I'm impressed. But i also feel like what they're saying is "we don't need government aid, because some people are talented enough to advance on their own merits."

Most people are, if not worthless, of very little value to society as a whole. They might be wonderful parents and great drinking buddies or have really nice breasts even after three kids, but they enjoy the nice fat bulge in the bell curve that is human potential.

**dogma**

Polonius wrote:
Most people are, if not worthless, of very little value to society as a whole. They might be wonderful parents and great drinking buddies or have really nice breasts even after three kids, but they enjoy the nice fat bulge in the bell curve that is human potential.

As a professor of mine used to say "Average people are average, and average isn't especially good."

**halonachos**

My grandma used to say "I would rather buy someone for what they're worth and sell them for what they think they're worth.". Same basic premise I guess.

**TrollPie**

I agree with Polonius, simply looking at the religious views of most scientists and philosophers, and then looking at what political view people of that religious view usually have. Roughly two-thirds of philosophers and 80% of scientists are atheists, and atheism is often associated with leftist views. I'm not saying liberals are better, I'm saying that a leftist mindset will tend towards different fields to that of a conservative mindset.

Now to hide from the flak in my fat folds

**halonachos**

Know what, the more I study evolution, anatomy, and microbiology I find it hard not to believe in a higher being. The number of possible accidents that could cause genes to go astray and yet most of the time humans manage to reproduce just fine(both sexually and asexually,the reproduction of skin cells for example) furthers my belief that something made it so that it would happen that way.

I just can't fathom that even in millions of years a cell would be able to get reproduction down to a science if it was 100% chaos.

**Polonius**

I don't think it's about what a person believes that indicated the shift between conservaitism and liberalism, but how deeply they believe it.

When you know things for sure, it's more comforting to stick with what you know. When you feel like you don't really know anything anyway, change isn't as scary.

**dogma**

Polonius wrote:When you feel like you don't really know anything anyway, change isn't as scary.

Hence Socrates kills himself because the anything not Athens is definitely worse than death.

**gorgon**

I'm a little late to this thread. MGS, sorry about your central PA experience. Keep in mind one of the smartest things ever said about the state was James Carville (political consultant) calling it "two big cities with Alabama in between." Heck, in some areas like southern York county, they think they ARE southerners...run around with Confederate flags,etc.

Anyway, should you ever move to one of our big cities or their immediate suburbs, you'll find things to be different.

**BearersOfSalvation**

alarmingrick wrote:
BearersOfSalvation wrote:It always amazes me that people ask 'why is there so much hatred of liberals' when there's so much hatred BY liberals. If you talk to someone who calls himself a liberal about politics, it's extremely unlikely that he will refrain from saying something insulting about conservatives, or anyone who holds a position contrary to his.

i find the complete opposite. if i mention i'm liberal, i get lambasted and called lots of colorful names.

I don't doubt it, it's all a big bunch of back and forth insults - I certainly don't think that no conservatives say bad things about liberals, I was simply responding to the question early on.

Polonius wrote:Conservativism, by definition, is the maintenance of the status quo and the protection of traditional values and institutions. A lot of those traditions and values are about oppressing women, minorities, gays, and the non-wealthy.

Look, I know that on the internet every conservative has black friends and is pro-choice and "considers himself more of a libertarian, really," but calling it simply an insult to suggest that there is racism, homophobia, or a desire to help the upp 10% at the expense of the masses within the conservative movement is to detach from debate.

This is a good example of what I mean; Polonius uses an archaic definition of the word that isn't actually relevant anymore to justify his insult, then goes on to hurl the insults just the same. He apparently doesn't even believe that he's being insulting when he does, which is always amusing. There is racism and 'helping the top 10%' from both conservatives and liberals, but saying that 'oh those other guys are all [bad thing] is just hurling insults, and really only serves to turn people away from your side.

**youbedead**

halonachos wrote:Know what, the more I study evolution, anatomy, and microbiology I find it hard not to believe in a higher being. The number of possible accidents that could cause genes to go astray and yet most of the time humans manage to reproduce just fine(both sexually and asexually,the reproduction of skin cells for example) furthers my belief that something made it so that it would happen that way.

I just can't fathom that even in millions of years a cell would be able to get reproduction down to a science if it was 100% chaos.

Or as a famous man with fuzzy hair once said "god does not play dice."

**halonachos**

dogma wrote:
Polonius wrote:When you feel like you don't really know anything anyway, change isn't as scary.

Hence Socrates kills himself because the anything not Athens is definitely worse than death.

Wait what, what exactly is the 'anything not Athens" and what does it have to do with Polonius's quote?

**Polonius**

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Polonius wrote:Conservativism, by definition, is the maintenance of the status quo and the protection of traditional values and institutions. A lot of those traditions and values are about oppressing women, minorities, gays, and the non-wealthy.

Look, I know that on the internet every conservative has black friends and is pro-choice and "considers himself more of a libertarian, really," but calling it simply an insult to suggest that there is racism, homophobia, or a desire to help the upp 10% at the expense of the masses within the conservative movement is to detach from debate.

This is a good example of what I mean; Polonius uses an archaic definition of the word that isn't actually relevant anymore to justify his insult, then goes on to hurl the insults just the same.

How would you define conservitism?

I mean, I'd struggle to come up with a definition that doesn't, at some point, either directly or indirectly speak of maintaining the status quo.

What did I say that was insulting?

He apparently doesn't even believe that he's being insulting when he does, which is always amusing. There is racism and 'helping the top 10%' from both conservatives and liberals, but saying that 'oh those other guys are all [bad thing] is just hurling insults, and really only serves to turn people away from your side.

It's not insulting to point out that some conservatives are racist. It's insulting to say that all are racist. It's not even insluting to point out that many conservative leaders take advantage of the racism of their base.

It's not insutling to point out facts about conservatives, any more than it would be insulting to point out that liberals will never really accomplish education reform as long as the Democrats are in the pockets of the teachers unions.

I mean, the point of ecnomic conservatism is to have a smaller government that has fewer regulations and restrictiosn on commerce, and also lower taxes. There is... let's be generous and say "some"... evidence that this will help everybody. There is plenty of evidence that it will help the wealthy.

My point, which you supported quite well, is that rather than discuss facts, it can be easier to simply shout "you're being insulting" and short circuit debate.

Now, you might be insulted, but if you're insulted because I pointed out something unpleasant about your team... well, I'm sorry, but them's the breaks.

**Scrabb**

halonachos wrote:Wait what, what exactly is the 'anything not Athens" and what does it have to do with Polonius's quote?

Socrates chose death by poison over banishment from Athens.

He's also the guy who's credited with saying stuff like this: "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

**dogma**

halonachos wrote:
Wait what, what exactly is the 'anything not Athens" and what does it have to do with Polonius's quote?

Socrates was given the choice between exile from Athens, and death. He chose death because he "knew" (believed) anything not Athens was terrible, but didn't know anything about death.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:
...Polonius uses an archaic definition of the word that isn't actually relevant anymore to justify his insult...

What? Conservatives conserve things, that's what they do, and its why they're called Conservatives. Maybe that's not what people who you call Conservatives want, but then you're wrong to call them Conservatives, and need to spend a good deal of time revisiting your notions of politics.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:
...then goes on to hurl the insults just the same. He apparently doesn't even believe that he's being insulting when he does, which is always amusing.

Nothing he said was insulting unless you simply don't like having certain sides of the argument described.

It isn't hard to insult Conservatives, and a lot of the insults that are easy to use are extremely insulting. By feigning indignation you make yourself look...whiny, which is probably not your goal.

**Emperors Faithful**

halonachos wrote:Then once they reach the states they don't pay into the tax system that is already stressed and get gipped in terms of income. I mean a dollar an hour for work if that? They get exploited badly.

And they still keep coming. To them, it must be worth the risk.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Slarg232 wrote:I'm all for letting people in the country, but I have no respect for people who pile twenty of themselves into an SUV to try to get across the border....

And how else are these people going to get into a country? Legally they have absolutely no chance of immigrating, is it any wonder that they then turn to illegal means?

They're already in a country, otherwise they wouldn't be able to get into an SUV to drive across the border in the first place (to go across a border, you go from one side to the other, and there's no unclaimed land adjacent to the US). If they can't make it in legally, then they need to stay in their own country.

Why? If their country is basically a gak-hole, is it morally wrong for people of that country to want better things, like living in a better country, and try to achieve that by immigrating to another country?

Is it morally wrong if the only way of achieving that is through illegal means?

It's not like Australia has open immigration, so why are you complaining about people in the US wanting to enforce laws that are similar to (but generally less restrictive than) the same laws in Australia, New Zealand, Japan, UK, and everywhere in Europe that I've ever looked at immigration information on?

You make the mistake of assuming that, becuase I live here, I support every policy my country's government has. Should I make the same assumptions about Americans?

I certainly don't support the idea of picking up refugees out of the ocean, after they have travelled thousands of kilometres, and then chucking them in what's basically a prison camp while the government waits for the public to forget about them.

**halonachos**

Scrabb wrote:
halonachos wrote:Wait what, what exactly is the 'anything not Athens" and what does it have to do with Polonius's quote?

Socrates chose death by poison over banishment from Athens.

He's also the guy who's credited with saying stuff like this: "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

I thought that he was given a choice between death or never teaching again and said something like "An unexamined life is not worth living.".

In fact I see some places that say that Socrates was given the chance to propose his own penalty, the first he proposed was free meals(which was a joke) before he proposed the actual punishment of a fee of one silver piece(because he was poor). Another accuser proposed the death penalty and because Socrates had been a smart aleck they voted to give him the death penalty.

**Inquisitor Lord Bane**

gorgon wrote:I'm a little late to this thread. MGS, sorry about your central PA experience. Keep in mind one of the smartest things ever said about the state was James Carville (political consultant) calling it "two big cities with Alabama in between." Heck, in some areas like southern York county, they think they ARE southerners...run around with Confederate flags,etc.

Anyway, should you ever move to one of our big cities or their immediate suburbs, you'll find things to be different.

This. I live in Montgomery County, and I'm pretty happy here. Got everything, and yes, there are D-bags here, but when they act up everyone else smacks them back down.

**olympia**

Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
gorgon wrote:I'm a little late to this thread. MGS, sorry about your central PA experience. Keep in mind one of the smartest things ever said about the state was James Carville (political consultant) calling it "two big cities with Alabama in between." Heck, in some areas like southern York county, they think they ARE southerners...run around with Confederate flags,etc.

Anyway, should you ever move to one of our big cities or their immediate suburbs, you'll find things to be different.

This. I live in Montgomery County, and I'm pretty happy here. Got everything, and yes, there are D-bags here, but when they act up everyone else smacks them back down.

The good folks of Cumberland County (central PA) welcomed as liberating heroes the Confederate army when it passed through en route to getting pwned at Gettysburg.

**Inquisitor Lord Bane**

I've driven through a few times. Those people tend to be worse then the white trash folk you can find in the south.

**Perkustin**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:http://www.vimeo.com/23836285

America is a different culture, it is ignorant in the extreme to believe they should just conform to your own ideals. You aren't helping things by making such flawed moany arguments. America welcomed you, dont bite the hand that feeds. You want to make a difference? Volunteer at the homeless shelter/youth club, join a union. Join up as a canvasser for Obama for goodness sake!

This is a short promotional film seeking a budget to be made into a full film documentary.

I myself, as a person who believes strongly in tolerance and cultural exchange, have my own problems with Islam with regards it's treatment of women and it's extremist applications in parts of the world.
It is not ISLAM's treatment of women, it is Arabic culture's treatment of women, look it up. Some 'open minded' people can often be very ignorant of the charitable and peaceful teachings of the Koran

But this level of intolerance leaves me boggled, what happened to the separation of church and state? And why is there such a rabid hatred of liberal views in the US, having moved to PA, I have been told by people who never stopped to ask me my own views, that liberals 'should be rounded up and shot', that environmentalists 'are all backed by the communists and are enemies of the nation'.
America is a christian democracy, Christianity is a far bigger part of their culture, Homer Simpson Goes to church every week, live with it. I mean come on, is Barack Obama an Athiest?! As for the hatred of liberals, As long as people from the Maccarthy/cold war era survive their is always going to be a kernel of that sentiment. Only time will heal some wounds

The vast majority of the population of the US are descended from immigrants of the last 300 years, it is a mixing bowl of peoples from across the planet.
You have made the common mistake of thinking this should make them more open minded, if anything their brutal colonisation and proto ethnic cleansing should make them infintely more intolerant than they are

I said to my wife the other night, that the US is at it's most amazing and beautiful when it unites, when it uses that hybrid vigour to do great things and when it leads the rest of the world into doing great things and it is at it's nadir when it finds it's self so absolutely divided, much as I have seen recently over politics and faith.
How very drole, plus since last time i checked their has been no civil wars

I moved over here, rather than my American wife moving to the UK, partly because of the bright optimism I had encountered in the US, the people believed in their country and in doing 'the right thing' and in 'freedom for all'. It was a refreshing change to the jaded post-imperial cynical hangover that we have in the UK. But that brightness has dimmed a very great deal in the past couple of years and the country feels so deeply divided and at loggerheads.
Perhaps do some research next time you move

I saw a pickup truck yesterday with a bumper sticker that read 'Don't Re Nig in 2012 Get him out!' and can't really believe that not only does some ignorant bastard manufacture that, but that some other ignorant bastard would proudly display it. At first I was my usual vitriolic self and angry, then, just saddened and tired by it. It made me want to go home to the riots and class divisions of the UK.
Admittedly the use of an offensive word is not necessary but there are numerous reasons why even the wooliest liberal would not want to see a fairly toothless president re elected

Whether from the right or left, you are so much better than this. Will we see a return to more agreeable politics and a less divided nation or should Mrs S and I start looking into moving to Canada?

As a final point i see absolutely NO mention of the drug, unemployment and crime epidemics as well as the overpopulated prisons. Clearly you aren't as worried about the vulnerable and impoverished as you imply. More about 'Mrs S and I's' relative safety and comfort as middle class liberals

**LordofHats**

The good folks of Cumberland County (central PA) welcomed as liberating heroes the Confederate army when it passed through en route to getting pwned at Gettysburg.

What bearing would that have on today (assuming it's true idk)? I've been in Cumberland for awhile now and we had a huge reenactment event over at Carlisle at the Army Heritage and Education Center. It's surprising how few Confederate reenactors were present compared to Union try maybe 1-25? It's the complete opposite at most reenactments in US. For some reason Reenactors love the Confederates as the underdogs

And the Buffalo Soldier guys (there were only five of them) were one of the most popular groups present.

Also a surprisingly high number of Airborne, Lufftwafe, and Zuave reenactors... I was even surprised to find some Brits in our mists over by the golf course with some 82nd reenactors.

**Bromsy**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Slarg232 wrote:
halonachos wrote:Do I think immigrants should be allowed in the country, yes. Do I think illegal immigrants should be allowed in the country, no.

This.

I'm all for letting people in the country, but I have no respect for people who pile twenty of themselves into an SUV to try to get across the border....

And how else are these people going to get into a country? Legally they have absolutely no chance of immigrating, is it any wonder that they then turn to illegal means?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
halonachos wrote:That's part of the beauty of America, we have so many different thoughts and opinions.

And every other nation is ruled by a mono-dominant mindset?

If you read little bit more in my post... go on I'll give you a chance to.

Cool, you added in a quote from Robin Williams about bombing people.

... So your argument is that if you can't get something done conveniently, screw the law and get it done however you can? Man, my boss just won't retire, and I want that promotion, so strychnine in the coffee. You can't move to a place and think that you, personally, get to decide which laws are important enough to follow.

**Mannahnin**

Perkustin wrote:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:But this level of intolerance leaves me boggled, what happened to the separation of church and state? And why is there such a rabid hatred of liberal views in the US, having moved to PA, I have been told by people who never stopped to ask me my own views, that liberals 'should be rounded up and shot', that environmentalists 'are all backed by the communists and are enemies of the nation'.

America is a christian democracy,

Not, we're really not. If you had written "democracy largely made up of Christians", you'd have been right. The majority of us are Christians of one stripe or another, but the system of government was deliberately designed not to favor any religion over another.

Perkustin wrote:[Christianity is a far bigger part of their culture, Homer Simpson Goes to church every week, live with it. I mean come on, is Barack Obama an Athiest?! As for the hatred of liberals, As long as people from the Maccarthy/cold war era survive their is always going to be a kernel of that sentiment. Only time will heal some wounds.

These points are more valid.

**Perkustin**

Yeah i realised that was a innacurate way of putting it after i looked into it a bit more. More a poor choice of words than something i truly believed though.

I am not going to pretend i know that much about american politics, that would be foolish

**Emperors Faithful**

Bromsy wrote:
... So your argument is that if you can't get something done conveniently, screw the law and get it done however you can? Man, my boss just won't retire, and I want that promotion, so strychnine in the coffee. You can't move to a place and think that you, personally, get to decide which laws are important enough to follow.

It depends if the law is immoral. Murdering your boss is immoral, hence I would follow the law in that case. There are plenty of unjust laws out there.

If morality somehow doesn't play into it, then one would weigh up the risks of capture and punishment with that of successfully committing the illegal act.

I don't think I need to explain the Strain theory in full to you right now. Basically, if people desire something badly enough, but have no legal means to achieve that desire, they will inevitably be swayed to achieve it via illegal means. This is especially true if the law can be widely seen as unjust, or discriminating. And Immigration laws are almost always discriminating against the unskilled or uneducated, even if ethnicity doesn't play into it.