Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

halonachos wrote:That's part of the beauty of America, we have so many different thoughts and opinions.

And every other nation is ruled by a mono-dominant mindset?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

halonachos wrote:That's part of the beauty of America, we have so many different thoughts and opinions.

And every other nation is ruled by a mono-dominant mindset?

If you read little bit more in my post... go on I'll give you a chance to.

halonachos wrote:That's part of the beauty of America, we have so many different thoughts and opinions.

In my experience there are far fewer of the former than the latter.

Everyone has thoughts and opinions, sometimes one is better than the other and sometimes both of them are horrible.

Opinions are emotional while thoughts are more robotic and dull, America has always been known as being emotional. Its why there are political cartoons from twentieth and nineteenth century England showing Americans having duels over passing the mustard.

Frazzled wrote:Dude its going to literally be 101 here tomorrow. Its not sane this year.

It's not sane for you? I think these last few days have been the only ones without Snow or Rain! Minot has flooded for the first time in Thirty-One years! Had to evacuate my brother from his house....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the timing is about right, though. I don't know if the book I had in History Class was Leftist or Rightest, or maybe even something else, but it said that the Founding Fathers said that the American Government would only last around 200 years as it currently was. Maybe they were right?

As for immigrants, I don't know so much about cultures or such, but as long as they can cook like the ones I've met, they are welcome in my country, anytime.

Seriously, my brother's girlfriend came over from Korea, their food is to die for. Also, you can die from the heat.

There's a couple of different issues with immigration though.

There's the, "I don't want illegal immigrants in our country."

Then the "I don't want immigrants in our country." folks.

Note that there is a stark contrast between the two. Were my ancestors in America before it was a country, yes. Did the other side of my family immigrate to america, yes but they were processed by the government.

Do I think immigrants should be allowed in the country, yes. Do I think illegal immigrants should be allowed in the country, no.

halonachos wrote:Do I think immigrants should be allowed in the country, yes. Do I think illegal immigrants should be allowed in the country, no.

This.

I'm all for letting people in the country, but I have no respect for people who pile twenty of themselves into an SUV to try to get across the border....


Also, has anyone ever noticed that a fair amount of Immigrants seem to think America is a bad place to live? I've run into several immigrants who go on and on about how terrible America is, but the moment you say something along the lines of "Hey, if America is so bad, why not go back to your own country?" and they shut up right quick.

Only person I haven't said this to is a lady I work with who really doesn't have a choice in being over here or not; her husbands military, she kinda has to go where he does.

Slarg232 wrote:I've run into several immigrants who go on and on about how terrible America is, but the moment you say something along the lines of "Hey, if America is so bad, why not go back to your own country?" and they shut up right quick.

Only person I haven't said this to is a lady I work with who really doesn't have a choice in being over here or not; her husbands military, she kinda has to go where he does.

Its actually quite common for relocating to another country to be, primarily, about a desire to do something else (take a job, attend a school, stay with family) and not actually about wanting to relocate to another country.

I hate where I currently live, but I'm stuck there because of school, and while I am working on escaping I'm still going to occasionally talk about how terrible it is.

Slarg232 wrote:

halonachos wrote:Do I think immigrants should be allowed in the country, yes. Do I think illegal immigrants should be allowed in the country, no.

This.

I'm all for letting people in the country, but I have no respect for people who pile twenty of themselves into an SUV to try to get across the border....

And how else are these people going to get into a country? Legally they have absolutely no chance of immigrating, is it any wonder that they then turn to illegal means?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

halonachos wrote:That's part of the beauty of America, we have so many different thoughts and opinions.

And every other nation is ruled by a mono-dominant mindset?

If you read little bit more in my post... go on I'll give you a chance to.

Cool, you added in a quote from Robin Williams about bombing people.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I myself, as a person who believes strongly in tolerance and cultural exchange...
should Mrs S and I start looking into moving to Canada?

Edit: Let's avoid critical personal comments, please. Especially regarding people with whom one is not on good terms. -Mannahnin

If you're really of the assumption that Canada (or anywhere) has greener grass you might consider the fact that there will be at least one D-bag wherever you go. Mostly the same human condition everywhere, with people having both the capacity for good and bad.
I don't think your perception of how things are in the middle east or anywhere will change based on which North American Country you reside in.

@ Emperor's Faithful, I believe I said something about having to accept the bad with the good, just like everywhere else.

Also, in terms of immigration illegally coming over is worse than actually coming over legally.

They get shoved into metal containers and potentially die from heat exposure or dehydration, get screwed out of their money when the coyotes who they paid to run them across the border decide not to actually take them across, they get robbed on their way, and are overly exploited before they even reach the border.

Then once they reach the states they don't pay into the tax system that is already stressed and get gipped in terms of income. I mean a dollar an hour for work if that? They get exploited badly.

The thing is if a Brit or an aussy moved to the states these people probably wouldn't have an issue, it is purely because they are of a different religion and aren't white.

Slarg232 wrote:

halonachos wrote:Do I think immigrants should be allowed in the country, yes. Do I think illegal immigrants should be allowed in the country, no.

This.

I'm all for letting people in the country, but I have no respect for people who pile twenty of themselves into an SUV to try to get across the border....

I don't think it's as simple as that.
Letting the legal system determine who's worthy of staying isn't always right. Only the rich(er) people in a country you'd want to leave, would be able to afford to cross legally. The poor ones, the ones at highest risk, can't do that. Often, it's highly likely that sending them back will get them killed, due to their race or religion. For example, in Iran being homosexual-something you don't even choose-is punished by death. I'm not saying you should just hang up a big sign saying, "Move to America! We have cookies!", just that it's too easy to not take in to account what could happen to them.

P.S. Sorry if I seem condescending, it's just my opinion.

It always amazes me that people ask 'why is there so much hatred of liberals' when there's so much hatred BY liberals. If you talk to someone who calls himself a liberal about politics, it's extremely unlikely that he will refrain from saying something insulting about conservatives, or anyone who holds a position contrary to his. To the self-identified liberal, all conservatives are redneck idiots or warmongering elitists who hate freedom and hates women and hates races and hates gays and want to oppress the common man and so on. When both 'sides' of the 'discussion' hurl insults at each other, being surprised that one but not the other does so is a little silly.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:I'm all for letting people in the country, but I have no respect for people who pile twenty of themselves into an SUV to try to get across the border....

And how else are these people going to get into a country? Legally they have absolutely no chance of immigrating, is it any wonder that they then turn to illegal means?

They're already in a country, otherwise they wouldn't be able to get into an SUV to drive across the border in the first place (to go across a border, you go from one side to the other, and there's no unclaimed land adjacent to the US). If they can't make it in legally, then they need to stay in their own country. It's not like Australia has open immigration, so why are you complaining about people in the US wanting to enforce laws that are similar to (but generally less restrictive than) the same laws in Australia, New Zealand, Japan, UK, and everywhere in Europe that I've ever looked at immigration information on?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

TrollPie wrote:I don't think it's as simple as that.
Letting the legal system determine who's worthy of staying isn't always right. Only the rich(er) people in a country you'd want to leave, would be able to afford to cross legally. The poor ones, the ones at highest risk, can't do that. Often, it's highly likely that sending them back will get them killed, due to their race or religion. For example, in Iran being homosexual-something you don't even choose-is punished by death.

There are already laws about refugee and at-risk status immigrants, and even if there weren't then the right way to handle it would be to change the laws to reflect the desired result, not to just ignore the laws and condemn people who think that following the law is what governments are supposed to do. Plus the vast majority of illegal immigrants aren't in that category, so the whole topic is really a red herring.

I'm not saying you should just hang up a big sign saying, "Move to America! We have cookies!", just that it's too easy to not take in to account what could happen to them.

Well, I notice you have a UK flag by your name. Maybe we should hang up a big sign saying "Move to the UK, we condemn America's intolerance", then ship every illegal immigrant across the pond to your immigrant allowed paradise - oh wait, the UK wouldn't take them. It amazes me how many people in countries with really restrictive immigration laws will hang around and condemn the US for having any immigration laws.

corpsesarefun wrote:The thing is if a Brit or an aussy moved to the states these people probably wouldn't have an issue, it is purely because they are of a different religion and aren't white.

You know that 99.9% of mexicans are catholic right, its not like they sacrifice cattle to appease Cthulu. We have a lot of Catholics in the states, sure the government is mostly protestant and baptist, but there are a lot of Catholics(John F. Kennedy being the only Catholic president) who are citizens.

Their culture isn't too different from ours, they work hard for what they earn and I think that illegals should be made legal if they have good character so at least they can earn more. Not to get too much on the whole skin color thing, but yes there are people who hate them just because of skin color but those people will be in the minority soon.

The issue comes with people either being denied citizenship or people fearing that they will be denied citizenship so they look towards illegal ways of entering the country and screwed.

Top Gear hosts testing the limits of Alabamans and their tolerance

BearersOfSalvation wrote:It always amazes me that people ask 'why is there so much hatred of liberals' when there's so much hatred BY liberals. If you talk to someone who calls himself a liberal about politics, it's extremely unlikely that he will refrain from saying something insulting about conservatives, or anyone who holds a position contrary to his. To the self-identified liberal, all conservatives are redneck idiots or warmongering elitists who hate freedom and hates women and hates races and hates gays and want to oppress the common man and so on. When both 'sides' of the 'discussion' hurl insults at each other, being surprised that one but not the other does so is a little silly.

I agree that it's idiotic when people accuse others of hurling insults at them, and then promptly do the same back, but saying broad sweeping statements like that just damages your own cause and means you loose credibility. When either side of the arguement-liberal or conservative-says pretty much everyone who opposes them is an ignorant pig, you've just resorted to the lowest form of kick-in-the-shins bickering.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

TrollPie wrote:I don't think it's as simple as that.
Letting the legal system determine who's worthy of staying isn't always right. Only the rich(er) people in a country you'd want to leave, would be able to afford to cross legally. The poor ones, the ones at highest risk, can't do that. Often, it's highly likely that sending them back will get them killed, due to their race or religion. For example, in Iran being homosexual-something you don't even choose-is punished by death.

There are already laws about refugee and at-risk status immigrants, and even if there weren't then the right way to handle it would be to change the laws to reflect the desired result, not to just ignore the laws and condemn people who think that following the law is what governments are supposed to do. Plus the vast majority of illegal immigrants aren't in that category, so the whole topic is really a red herring.

I was responding to the statement that if you're illiegal you should invariably go back to wherever you came from.

I'm not saying you should just hang up a big sign saying, "Move to America! We have cookies!", just that it's too easy to not take in to account what could happen to them.

Well, I notice you have a UK flag by your name. Maybe we should hang up a big sign saying "Move to the UK, we condemn America's intolerance", then ship every illegal immigrant across the pond to your immigrant allowed paradise - oh wait, the UK wouldn't take them. It amazes me how many people in countries with really restrictive immigration laws will hang around and condemn the US for having any immigration laws.

When did I say America was intolerant? I used America as an example because the person I was quoting was from America. I'm completely aware it's a similair situation here in the UK.

America does have cookies though Troll and we do like to advertise that fact, maybe next time you should be open of our culture.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:It always amazes me that people ask 'why is there so much hatred of liberals' when there's so much hatred BY liberals. If you talk to someone who calls himself a liberal about politics, it's extremely unlikely that he will refrain from saying something insulting about conservatives, or anyone who holds a position contrary to his. To the self-identified liberal, all conservatives are redneck idiots or warmongering elitists who hate freedom and hates women and hates races and hates gays and want to oppress the common man and so on. When both 'sides' of the 'discussion' hurl insults at each other, being surprised that one but not the other does so is a little silly.

Conservativism, by definition, is the maintenance of the status quo and the protection of traditional values and institutions. A lot of those traditions and values are about oppressing women, minorities, gays, and the non-wealthy.

Look, I know that on the internet every conservative has black friends and is pro-choice and "considers himself more of a libertarian, really," but calling it simply an insult to suggest that there is racism, homophobia, or a desire to help the upp 10% at the expense of the masses within the conservative movement is to detach from debate.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:It always amazes me that people ask 'why is there so much hatred of liberals' when there's so much hatred BY liberals. If you talk to someone who calls himself a liberal about politics, it's extremely unlikely that he will refrain from saying something insulting about conservatives, or anyone who holds a position contrary to his.

i find the complete opposite. if i mention i'm liberal, i get lambasted and called lots of colorful names.

I'm actually a conservative with black friends and I'm also pro-choice, but I thought that was always just me... Thanks for making me feel unspecial Polonius.

halonachos wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:The thing is if a Brit or an aussy moved to the states these people probably wouldn't have an issue, it is purely because they are of a different religion and aren't white.

You know that 99.9% of mexicans are catholic right, its not like they sacrifice cattle to appease Cthulu. We have a lot of Catholics in the states, sure the government is mostly protestant and baptist, but there are a lot of Catholics(John F. Kennedy being the only Catholic president) who are citizens.

Their culture isn't too different from ours, they work hard for what they earn and I think that illegals should be made legal if they have good character so at least they can earn more. Not to get too much on the whole skin color thing, but yes there are people who hate them just because of skin color but those people will be in the minority soon.

The issue comes with people either being denied citizenship or people fearing that they will be denied citizenship so they look towards illegal ways of entering the country and screwed.

I am referring to the original video.

Oh, thought you were referring to the country as a whole. Either way, that's my opinion of things but instead of being directed towards you, they're directed to nobody in particular.

I think that both sides of the political spectrum are guilty of plenty of kneejerk reaction to the other.

halonachos wrote:I'm actually a conservative with black friends and I'm also pro-choice, but I thought that was always just me... Thanks for making me feel unspecial Polonius.

you know alot of "conserative" folks around here would call you a closet liberal for being pro choice. just sayin'....

A lot of Catholics would also want me excommunicated from the church, but I understand that there are times when it is necessary and although I am personally against it, I know that I'm not everybody.

I'm more of a 'I don't want the government in my bedroom' kind of conservative, could you imagine waking up to see Obama in your bed telling you that you did something wrong? Or worse, you wake up with Dick Cheney next to you.

halonachos wrote:I'm actually a conservative with black friends and I'm also pro-choice, but I thought that was always just me... Thanks for making me feel unspecial Polonius.

I'm sure you're a beautiful and unique snowflake.

Seriously though, it's not like opposition to abortion rights come out of thin air.

Conservativism is a pretty appealing ideology though. As long as you're in a position where you have something you're afraid to lose, why not support efforts to protect that?

A lot of liberals wonder why so many blue collar, working class people are conservative, and the answer is actually pretty simple: They know that as little as they have, at least some comes because of some form of privilige. Any system that levels the playing field would strip them of that privilige. It's part of the reason so many union members are conservative, if democrats.

It's also part of the reason intellectuals tend to run more liberal: they know that no matter what the game is, they've got skills and abilities that will allow them to compete.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even the concepts of "liberal" and "conservative" are diffuse.

Social conservatives might have no problem with high taxes, while old money economic conservatices could give a crap who marries who.

Polonius wrote:It's also part of the reason intellectuals tend to run more liberal: they know that no matter what the game is, they've got skills and abilities that will allow them to compete.

Or believe they do. There are certainly "intellectuals" who are more ivory-tower and whose skills and knowledge are too specialized and limited to have broad application. But I agree with your point. As long as they think they're capable and smart (whether they are or aren't), they're more likely to be egalitarian in their views.

Polonius wrote:
It's also part of the reason intellectuals tend to run more liberal: they know that no matter what the game is, they've got skills and abilities that will allow them to compete.

Yep.

Though, there are also a lot of people like me who are sufficiently insulated to be comfortable no matter what happens (short of an armed revolt, though that's why you make friends in other countries), and therefore only view politics as a wonderful game.

dogma wrote:

Polonius wrote:
It's also part of the reason intellectuals tend to run more liberal: they know that no matter what the game is, they've got skills and abilities that will allow them to compete.

Yep.

Though, there are also a lot of people like me who are sufficiently insulated to be comfortable no matter what happens (short of an armed revolt, though that's why you make friends in other countries), and therefore only view politics as a wonderful game.

I hear that. I'm a professional class straight white guy. I'm going to be ok, personally, with whoever is in charge.