Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

mwnciboo wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:The % of FOW players with an SS army that are actual Neo Nazis is probably about the same as the % of 40k Chaos players that are actual devil worshipers. It's a non issue in my book.

But you are comparing something that actually existed (the SS) that conducted an evil event (the Holocaust, Industrialised murder) and 40k (fantasy realm that has never existed) with Devil Worshippers (Who may or may not exist).

So really your entire argument is flawed. It is very Real (certainly in Europe maybe not to our isolated American Cousins), go to Belsen or Triblinka or Auswitz. You will come out of those places with a very different opinion, I most certainly did. I saw some Royal Marines (who were on the same Royal Navy tour), some of the worlds crack light infantry crying like babes for the tragedy of the place. I don't see people weeping for 40k or devil worshippers. Please can we be objective and live in the real world.

You're confusing Devil Worship with the existence (or lack thereof) of the actual being they worship. Satanists and the like do actually exist in exactly the same way as Christians exist. The debate about existence is limited to their deities. Also, it matters not how horrific their activities are, the parallel still exists. Some people will link the ownership of an item or items with an act or group, whether the relationship exists or not. Most of the time (if not all of the time) the link is fatuous.

A slightly better parallel however would be D+D and Demon worship, a much more common believe in certain gullible parts of America.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: After the divergence to the War of Secession..how many ACW wargamers are racist white supremacists? Lets run with this.. how many ECW wargamers are Royalists?

Las wrote:
This is a huge, huge, huge common misunderstanding about the war. The deciding issue was indeed states rights, but it was unequivocally centered on a state's right to maintain the institution of slavery, which the southern states felt was under threat.

Slavery was the central factor of the war, and thats a fact.

And, after doing more research after becoming more and more interested in the period, I was in the wrong in my original post.

While most of my readings have been purely military, some do touch upon aspects of society before/after the war - and the issue of slavery was a central cause in the war, with the idea of 'state's rights' being used on both sides as a justifiable reason to secede/go to war.

wilycoyote wrote:

Regardless, FOW is still only a game, it is not real. You paid for your models so how you paint them up is your choice.

Think you missed the point.

I dont think the discussion is about how you paint your toys, but whether its sensible/correct to have bags with Waffen-SS symbols on given the historical significance of those symbols to some.

I have a Florian Geyer force in 20mm... But I dont want to wear an SS T-Shirt when Im playing with them...

I agree with that. I dont know how anyone in their right mind could justify wearing an SS t-shirt in any context.

The iron cross is debatable, considering the anti-nazi/apolitical elements that existed in the Wehrmacht. And definitely arguable in the context of FoW, also considering its historical attachment to the German Army.

But I damn well wouldnt wear it to go get groceries. I know some areas of Montreal, Chicago and Boston where you could get killed for that.

As per normal Big P hits the nail on the head.

Did IQ's drop sharply around here recently?
No one is saying people who play SS armies are Nazi's, no one is saying that someone who buy the unit patches for the bags is a Nazi.

What we are saying is that people who slap an SS symbol on a bag that they carry their toy soldiers in is being quite insensitive and runs the risk of offending people at best or at worst is moron with very little grasp of the actual history of their chosen "cool" army.

I really have had it with this now, it should not have been dragged up again and I will now ignore it in the hope that it drops off the board again.

This is the symbol used by the Bundeswehr today. While it has some differences to the iron crosses used during the second world war, it is still an iron cross. Iron crosses have a far larger history in German/Prussian military than just in WWII, it actually appeared first in 1813. I'm of the opinion that iron crosses in general are not more offensive than signets or badges of other nation's militaries. There may be an argument for not wearing/displaying iron crosses specifically used by German forces during WWII for already mentioned reasons, though, I haven't decided my personal standpoint on that yet.

What I'm trying to say, is, I guess: While the Swastika and Eagle say "Nazi Party" and the SS runes say "Schutzstaffel", the Iron Cross says "Germany" in a more general way and I think it can be argued that it is not necessarily a Nazi symbol, even during WWII time. Opinions on that?

"Silly comment on many levels. Not every war sees folks being used as pawns. That is just not a supportable statement at all. And somethings are worth fighting, killing, and if need be dying for, and there are folks who understand that. The 'wouldn't it be nice' is just hippy crap ungrounded in the real world. "---- CptJake so what about Iraq ? just saying.

What I really wanted to get at is it doesnt matter this is a game and people want to play with a SS division no one should care its not like they are leading them into the holocaust. People just need to use common sense when buying items for this game.

ghostmaker wrote: People just need to use common sense when buying items for this game.

This, but I would suggest it fly's in the face of common sense, morality and your own personal safety to walk around with SS patches on your Wargaming bag. We are all disgusted by groups like the Aryan Brotherhood, and they revell in covering themselves in Swastika's and Nazi symbology to show their political hues publicly and are quite rightly shunned due to their misguided, violent ways but most of all illegal ways.

ghostmaker wrote:"Silly comment on many levels. Not every war sees folks being used as pawns. That is just not a supportable statement at all. And somethings are worth fighting, killing, and if need be dying for, and there are folks who understand that. The 'wouldn't it be nice' is just hippy crap ungrounded in the real world. "---- CptJake so what about Iraq ? just saying.

What about it? Combat units that fought there had consistently high re-enlistment rates for a reason. Perhaps the fact that the all volunteer army was able to grow during the war indicates something too. "Troops as Pawns/Troops as Victims" is an old worn out meme that is not close to true regarding our all volunteer army.

Or are you implying soldiers are Too Stupid to know what they are volunteering for, and then re-enlisting for?

Just saying.

ghostmaker wrote: What I really wanted to get at is it doesnt matter this is a game and people want to play with a SS division no one should care its not like they are leading them into the holocaust. People just need to use common sense when buying items for this game.

Someone has to play the bad guys. I have no issue with that. Walking around town with SS symbology all over doesn't enhance the game, and may very well offend folks.

Jake