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Aldramelech wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.

Well, there's a logical reason for this. I present John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad Theory:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/

Basically, because he gets to hide behind a veil of anonymity, he basically becomes, well, what we've seen here.

Your a bit of a gakker ain't you? You accuse me of the above but use YOUR anonymity to call me a F$%kwad? I live in Exeter, Devon, England and if anyone wants to arrange a personal meeting with me by PM thats fine with me.

As for you ArbeitsSchu if you consider that post to be aggressive then I suggest you get out more. How exactly have I contradicted myself? I have put forward an example of how a ruthless tyrant has been rehabilitated over time and pointed out that people felt the need to put measures in place to ensure that same situation didn't happen with the worlds worst tyrant and that everyday use of such symbols undermines that. Contradiction? I would suggest you look the word up because you don't seem to know its meaning.

You lot have annoyed me to the point that Im going to take some action on this, I will bring BF and these products to the attention of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and see what they think of it.

I used the moderate term "aggressive" because Dakka filters all the really good descriptive words into "pseudo-swears". I'm sure you can use your imagination to expand "aggressive" into more accurate descriptors.

I've explained both times how you've contradicted yourself and your points. Though you intrigue me. How does removing something from sight allow later generations to remember it? What could have been banned or hidden after Napoleons France that would help people "remember" his atrocities? The Eagle perhaps?

And I would have thought that The Wiesenthal Centre might have more important things to do than listen to you whine that some wargamers on the internet refused to agree with your ratty toy-throwing fit...as much because it IS a dummy-throwing fit as because of any inherent wrongness in what you are saying. I'm pretty sure that everyone in this thread knows exactly what the SS and Nazi Germany did, and information about it is literally at their fingertips, symbology notwithstanding, and I'm also pretty sure that most people do not agree with or support those activities. Your hyperbolic ranting makes them out to be raging Neo-Nazis.

Also.. did you really just offer to "step outside" with a bunch of Americans, safe in the knowledge that nobodies budget stretches as far as a cross-atlantic trip to argue with you? Now that's hilarious. Especially when they aren't all Americans.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Aldramelech wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.

Well, there's a logical reason for this. I present John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad Theory:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/

Basically, because he gets to hide behind a veil of anonymity, he basically becomes, well, what we've seen here.

Your a bit of a gakker ain't you? You accuse me of the above but use YOUR anonymity to call me a F$%kwad? I live in Exeter, Devon, England and if anyone wants to arrange a personal meeting with me by PM thats fine with me.

As for you ArbeitsSchu if you consider that post to be aggressive then I suggest you get out more. How exactly have I contradicted myself? I have put forward an example of how a ruthless tyrant has been rehabilitated over time and pointed out that people felt the need to put measures in place to ensure that same situation didn't happen with the worlds worst tyrant and that everyday use of such symbols undermines that. Contradiction? I would suggest you look the word up because you don't seem to know its meaning.

You lot have annoyed me to the point that I'm going to take some action on this, I will bring BF and these products to the attention of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and see what they think of it.

I used the moderate term "aggressive" because Dakka filters all the really good descriptive words into "pseudo-swears". I'm sure you can use your imagination to expand "aggressive" into more accurate descriptors.

I've explained both times how you've contradicted yourself and your points. Though you intrigue me. How does removing something from sight allow later generations to remember it? What could have been banned or hidden after Napoleons France that would help people "remember" his atrocities? The Eagle perhaps?

And I would have thought that The Wiesenthal Centre might have more important things to do than listen to you whine that some wargamers on the internet refused to agree with your ratty toy-throwing fit...as much because it IS a dummy-throwing fit as because of any inherent wrongness in what you are saying. I'm pretty sure that everyone in this thread knows exactly what the SS and Nazi Germany did, and information about it is literally at their fingertips, symbology notwithstanding, and I'm also pretty sure that most people do not agree with or support those activities. Your hyperbolic ranting makes them out to be raging Neo-Nazis.

Also.. did you really just offer to "step outside" with a bunch of Americans, safe in the knowledge that nobodies budget stretches as far as a cross-atlantic trip to argue with you? Now that's hilarious. Especially when they aren't all Americans.

You know what? Ive just spent 30mins of my life typing a reply to that and have just realised what a complete waste of my time that was and you are. Your not worth my time.

Out of interest I wrote to the German embassy asking what the position would be if I travelled to a wargame event in Germany - and there are numerous other European countries that have similar legislation - with a bag carrying the Das Riech badge on. This is their reply...

"Thank you for your enquiry of 14 July 2011 asking if you are allowed to bring a carry case bearing a patch of the SS into Germany.

The object in question contains a clearly visible symbol connected to Nazi Germany. You were right to assume that to possess and carry with you such objects in Germany, might cause difficulties in certain situations.

According to information received from the Federal Criminal Police Office, we can advise you as follows:

You are allowed to take such an object with you to Germany.
*However, it is forbidden to display it in public.*

Therefore, when taking the object with you on a plane, you must not take it out of your suitcase and show it to other people. You should rather pack it safely in your suitcase. In case a customs officer wants to inspect the suitcase you must make clear that you are taking it with you for a games convention and emphasize the private purpose of the matter. As for the games convention, I suggest contacting the organisers to find out if any special regulations apply.

The Embassy cannot give any guarantee that the possession of this object would not cause any difficulties during your stay in Germany. Depending on the situation, displaying the object might be considered as a criminal offence.

I hope the above helps."

Aldramelech,

I am just going to go on record to say I disagree with your argument as a whole. I appreciate your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, at least in this country if I want to have a bag with a symbol on it then I most certainly can. Right or wrong in the eyes of others it is my right to do so.

And speaking of International Tribunal's that denounce the entire SS organization as a gang of criminals. Yes they did, but it does not make them all criminals. Afterall, this was the same group that turned a blind eye to everything else. However, this is not the point of the thread.

We will disagree on this. The Victors set the rules. There was no war crimes tribunal for officers of the US Army for what they did during the "Plains War". I care not.

Comintern wrote:Aldramelech,

I am just going to go on record to say I disagree with your argument as a whole. I appreciate your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, at least in this country if I want to have a bag with a symbol on it then I most certainly can. Right or wrong in the eyes of others it is my right to do so.

And speaking of International Tribunal's that denounce the entire SS organization as a gang of criminals. Yes they did, but it does not make them all criminals. Afterall, this was the same group that turned a blind eye to everything else. However, this is not the point of the thread.

We will disagree on this. The Victors set the rules. There was no war crimes tribunal for officers of the US Army for what they did during the "Plains War". I care not.

Fair nough

Aldramelech wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

Aldramelech wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.

Well, there's a logical reason for this. I present John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad Theory:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/

Basically, because he gets to hide behind a veil of anonymity, he basically becomes, well, what we've seen here.

Your a bit of a gakker ain't you? You accuse me of the above but use YOUR anonymity to call me a F$%kwad? I live in Exeter, Devon, England and if anyone wants to arrange a personal meeting with me by PM thats fine with me.

As for you ArbeitsSchu if you consider that post to be aggressive then I suggest you get out more. How exactly have I contradicted myself? I have put forward an example of how a ruthless tyrant has been rehabilitated over time and pointed out that people felt the need to put measures in place to ensure that same situation didn't happen with the worlds worst tyrant and that everyday use of such symbols undermines that. Contradiction? I would suggest you look the word up because you don't seem to know its meaning.

You lot have annoyed me to the point that I'm going to take some action on this, I will bring BF and these products to the attention of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and see what they think of it.

I used the moderate term "aggressive" because Dakka filters all the really good descriptive words into "pseudo-swears". I'm sure you can use your imagination to expand "aggressive" into more accurate descriptors.

I've explained both times how you've contradicted yourself and your points. Though you intrigue me. How does removing something from sight allow later generations to remember it? What could have been banned or hidden after Napoleons France that would help people "remember" his atrocities? The Eagle perhaps?

And I would have thought that The Wiesenthal Centre might have more important things to do than listen to you whine that some wargamers on the internet refused to agree with your ratty toy-throwing fit...as much because it IS a dummy-throwing fit as because of any inherent wrongness in what you are saying. I'm pretty sure that everyone in this thread knows exactly what the SS and Nazi Germany did, and information about it is literally at their fingertips, symbology notwithstanding, and I'm also pretty sure that most people do not agree with or support those activities. Your hyperbolic ranting makes them out to be raging Neo-Nazis.

Also.. did you really just offer to "step outside" with a bunch of Americans, safe in the knowledge that nobodies budget stretches as far as a cross-atlantic trip to argue with you? Now that's hilarious. Especially when they aren't all Americans.

You know what? Ive just spent 30mins of my life typing a reply to that and have just realised what a complete waste of my time that was and you are. Your not worth my time.

How foolish was that then? You already USED your time to type a reply. That's time wasted then. Your attempt to belittle me and my opinion would carry more weight if you had just no bothered to write a reply in the first place. Didn't think that through, did you? Nice to know that you put so much thought into arguing your position though. Guess I get to write you off as a troll now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On reflection I suppose I wont ever get to know what you think we should ban of Imperial France, in order to remind everyone how much of a tosser Napoleon was..

Due to ignorance can we please lock this thread?

I will not be wearing those!

You know... after this thread, I sort of feel like finding every unit symbol from WWII and placing them on a t-shirt. Sort of like 'Where's Waldo'.

I should add that this isn't a "Huuuurrr, I like to troll!" post. This is sincere, especially after this thread got me looking around on the internet.

marielle wrote:Out of interest I wrote to the German embassy asking what the position would be if I travelled to a wargame event in Germany - and there are numerous other European countries that have similar legislation - with a bag carrying the Das Reich badge on. This is their reply...
(...)
The Embassy cannot give any guarantee that the possession of this object would not cause any difficulties during your stay in Germany. Depending on the situation, displaying the object might be considered as a criminal offence.

Emphasis mine.
Yet for some reason, some people still argue that this a trivial element ?
Of course, the production and sale of such a product is likely to be a criminal offence as well, which puts BF in a weird place.

Thanks for the support infinite_array, it is indeed a sincere post and not for trolling. Its interesting to see how many people will do what they like, just because they are free to do so. Just because you can, doesn't necessarily mean it is a good idea. Freedom of expression without responsibility or sensitivity is a recipe that is exploited by extremist groups everywhere. Being Polite and civil, is about curbing your tongue and being sensitive to others interests and cultures.

I think the Iron Cross is relatively acceptable (note the relative) that said the SS symbology is unquestionably unacceptable.

HudsonD wrote:

marielle wrote:Out of interest I wrote to the German embassy asking what the position would be if I travelled to a wargame event in Germany - and there are numerous other European countries that have similar legislation - with a bag carrying the Das Reich badge on. This is their reply...
(...)
The Embassy cannot give any guarantee that the possession of this object would not cause any difficulties during your stay in Germany. Depending on the situation, displaying the object might be considered as a criminal offence.

Emphasis mine.
Yet for some reason, some people still argue that this a trivial element ?
Of course, the production and sale of such a product is likely to be a criminal offence as well, which puts BF in a weird place.

Isnt BF a NewZealand Based company? I would take it that the country has no laws against these symbols and certainly not selling them! Purchasing them in the US is not against any laws. Now, if you buy them in Germany and display them then yes, apparently you are violating laws there, as well as if you did it in "several other European Nations". However, just because its illegal there, doesnt mean that BF is in any kind of trouble or should even be in any trouble.

Comintern wrote:
Isnt BF a NewZealand Based company? I would take it that the country has no laws against these symbols and certainly not selling them! Purchasing them in the US is not against any laws. Now, if you buy them in Germany and display them then yes, apparently you are violating laws there, as well as if you did it in "several other European Nations". However, just because its illegal there, doesnt mean that BF is in any kind of trouble or should even be in any trouble.

I'm sure a sale interdiction in European countries would greatly benefit BF's business...

hahahaha...okay. Yeah I'm sure the sale of historical miniatures represents a clear and present danger to them.

Help us, the Pewter's are coming.

I don't know about anybody else, but I'm ashamed to be seen with my miniatures in public, lest I be ridiculed!

As for the whole Swastike/Hammer stickle thing, it boils down to a freedom of expression/speech issue.

Do we really want a situation where certain symbols are put on a pedestal or hidden away, lest people find them?

I did find the Germany situation strange. You sometimes get the impression that the powers that be think if people see a swastika in public they'll suddenly decide to turn Nazi.
That's a simplistic attitude that treats free thinking adults like children, and one I've always been against.

As for the skull symbol, it has it's roots in the Prussian army and like many things, just becuase it was perverted by the Nazis doesn't mean it should be condemned for all eternity.

I mean, where do you draw the line: crucifix, cresent moon? coca cola or macdonals's arches. Think of how many people have been killed by heart disease and diabetes.

I fully believe that at some point in the future the McDonald's Arches will become associated with mass genocides and pure evil.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As for the whole Swastike/Hammer stickle thing, it boils down to a freedom of expression/speech issue.

Absolutely. And I reserve the right to call a guy with a Che shirt, or a hammer and sickle shirt, or a Mao hat with red star, or a swastika proudly displayed a nasty hate-filled scumbag. My freedom of speech counts too.

As for the whole Swastike/Hammer stickle thing, it boils down to a freedom of expression/speech issue.

Ay well, but if you happen to go to a wargames event in Germany, and get stopped, I'd keep that to yourself, apologise and remove the offending item.

Claiming freedom of expression is likely to get you arrested.

mwnciboo wrote:Thanks for the support infinite_array, it is indeed a sincere post and not for trolling. Its interesting to see how many people will do what they like, just because they are free to do so. Just because you can, doesn't necessarily mean it is a good idea. Freedom of expression without responsibility or sensitivity is a recipe that is exploited by extremist groups everywhere. Being Polite and civil, is about curbing your tongue and being sensitive to others interests and cultures.

I thnk this sums it up right here; I believe George Washington was mentioned as saying that their is such a thing as "too much freedom" as it can lead to anarchism or violence without a stable society.

Accountability and consideration are probably the by-words needed here in these kind of situations; in America, you're free to express yourself however you want as long as your expressions do not harm or obstruct others, however, those same expressions can lead to severe repercussions.

However, like you have mentioned mwnciboo, common sense, sensitivity and considerations is needed....after all, just because I have the freedom to do something crazy like waving around nazi-flags or whatever controversial symbol of the day is, doesn't mean I should.

Very good point that I think others should consider regardless of nationality......

Note how the official German Government response to the situation is moderately phrased. More of a polite suggestion. They advise that the item not be openly display, because it might be an issue.

"You may find that in certain circumstances some people might find you are engaged in an illegal act." as opposed to "You will be imprisoned for a thousand years and probably shot as well." Now if the Germans themselves can handle the matter with such calm self-control, how is it that other people feel the need to get all ranty and sweary and "Nazi scum" about it? Its actually very unlikely that a wargamer with this patch is in fact "Nazi Scum" or anything of the sort, in exactly the same way that the guy with the Soviet Guards division badge is not a "commie bastard" or whatever.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Note how the official German Government response to the situation is moderately phrased. More of a polite suggestion. They advise that the item not be openly display, because it might be an issue.

"You may find that in certain circumstances some people might find you are engaged in an illegal act." as opposed to "You will be imprisoned for a thousand years and probably shot as well." Now if the Germans themselves can handle the matter with such calm self-control, how is it that other people feel the need to get all ranty and sweary and "Nazi scum" about it? Its actually very unlikely that a wargamer with this patch is in fact "Nazi Scum" or anything of the sort, in exactly the same way that the guy with the Soviet Guards division badge is not a "commie bastard" or whatever.

Consider it freedom of expression.

That works both ways. Folks can freely express their ability to look like they advocate scumbags, and I can freely express my opinion that this advocation makes them a scumbag. They can then freely express that I just don't understand their intent or whatever. I can can freely state what I think about it. A guy with a Black Panthers or a Klan shirt would draw a simiilar response from me.

Pretty simple concept. Their freedom will not infringe on mine. I don't threaten to imprison them for a thousand years or shoot them, but I can damn well let them know what I think. Why would that be an issue for anyone? Is it only freedom of expression when you are being offensive towards decent folks?

infinite_array wrote:I fully believe that at some point in the future the McDonald's Arches will become associated with mass genocides and pure evil.

hmmm...Not really genocide is it. Thinking logically, you are not forced to go and eat at McDonalds (i certainly don't) therefore I have free will, to eat there or not eat there. I don't remember Auswitz having an "opt out" clause, it was enforced unto all the undesirable elements of National Socialist society. McDonalds may however be evil

Indeed.

So now we are in a Freedom of expression debate over whether its right or not right to display these badges? Well, in Germany it isnt. As was pointed out, "Some other European" countries have the same fixtures in place. Because you know, It never happened or we dont like the grim reminder. Perhaps this was why the USA is the country with the National Holocaust museum.

In the US one has the freedom to wear these patches and others have the right to denounce those that wear them. This isnt a debate its a law...its the way things are. After all, is West Baptist Church and sling slurs are funerals I can at least put a Fallschirmjager patch on my army case and go tell you to frag yourself when you denounce me.


The Point is, BF sells these patches, they are not against any law I know of in NZ and certainly not in the US. If some places in Europe have a hard time with History then thats their problem and at this point I dont think its in Poor Tastes. Unless of course, Neo-Nazis start buying them and using them for their own political agendas.

My major concern here, is that the primary Defence of wearing such symbols is that it infringes Free speech.

Free Speech, the idea I can believe some one is inferior to me, based on the colour of their skin, and call them derogatory names in public? You mean I can say what I like when I like, because I like in Public?

But hold on, What about the KKK? Are they just exercising free speech? A more modern take would be "Mosques Preaching Anti American- hate in downtown New York". Is this acceptable? What about the outright denunciation of your entire political system as wrong, that it should be replaced by a Theocracy and the introduction of Sharia Law? Would the FBI stand idly by, whilst this was preached as the IMAN is entitled to free Speech? I would suggest not.

To me free Speech is a false flag. It is the ultimate falsehood. Free speech within the bounds of the Law is probably the most accurate term. You are beholden to defamation of Character, Liable, what about threats, are these not free speech? Free of expression is a very ambigious term. Equally in the UK, swearing excessively at a Police Officer, will result in warning, if you carry on you will arrested on Public Order Offences.

Some interesting philosophical points come out if you read up on the following.

Joel Feinberg's Offense Principle
Democratic Citizenry and Pornography (yes Porn changed the world, but not in the way you would imagine)
Democratic Citizenship and Hate Speech
Paternalistic Justifcation of Limited Speech

'Free speech' allows you to say what you want, yes. But then you need to consider what laws and cultural taboos exist where you're deciding to use your 'free speech'.

So, the KKK burning crosses out front of people's houses? Bad.

Wearing an SS-rune tshirt at a Neo-nazi gathering? Bad.

But putting the same rune on your army case, because that's the unit you've decided to run with, either because you like their list/playstyle or their combat history? Not bad.

CptJake wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Note how the official German Government response to the situation is moderately phrased. More of a polite suggestion. They advise that the item not be openly display, because it might be an issue.

"You may find that in certain circumstances some people might find you are engaged in an illegal act." as opposed to "You will be imprisoned for a thousand years and probably shot as well." Now if the Germans themselves can handle the matter with such calm self-control, how is it that other people feel the need to get all ranty and sweary and "Nazi scum" about it? Its actually very unlikely that a wargamer with this patch is in fact "Nazi Scum" or anything of the sort, in exactly the same way that the guy with the Soviet Guards division badge is not a "commie bastard" or whatever.

Consider it freedom of expression.

That works both ways. Folks can freely express their ability to look like they advocate scumbags, and I can freely express my opinion that this advocation makes them a scumbag. They can then freely express that I just don't understand their intent or whatever. I can can freely state what I think about it. A guy with a Black Panthers or a Klan shirt would draw a simiilar response from me.

Pretty simple concept. Their freedom will not infringe on mine. I don't threaten to imprison them for a thousand years or shoot them, but I can damn well let them know what I think. Why would that be an issue for anyone? Is it only freedom of expression when you are being offensive towards decent folks?

I was mostly commenting on the manner in which it is done. If Federal Germany can do it in a well-mannered and polite way, then individuals should be able to do it in a sensible and intelligent manner..rather than shouting "Nazi Scum" at someone who has done little more than display the icon of the unit he chooses to carry in that particular case. There is also the small matter of personal safety. After all, shouting "Nazi Scum" at actual Nazi scum is likely to end up in a fight, so one better be able to defend that comment with force before using it...unless of course the people in this thread only shout abuse at small youths who are only playing a game, and not REAL Nazi scum....

But putting the same rune on your army case, because that's the unit you've decided to run with, either because you like their list/playstyle or their combat history? Not bad.

Have Battlefront added a rule that in late war games they randomly shoot and hang German soldiers and civilians for being defeatists when they retreat?

So now we are in a Freedom of expression debate over whether its right or not right to display these badges?

Really?

The Point is, BF sells these patches, they are not against any law I know of in NZ and certainly not in the US. If some places in Europe have a hard time with History then thats their problem and at this point I dont think its in Poor Tastes. Unless of course, Neo-Nazis start buying them and using them for their own political agendas.

Might I suggest you are subverting the issue of whom is having a hard time with history?

My personal opinion is you should be allowed to use it, but don't be surprised if people think you're an asshat for doing so.

Balance wrote:My personal opinion is you should be allowed to use it, but don't be surprised if people think you're an asshat for doing so.

agreed. over here in 'Merica most people can't even point out Germany on an unmarked map, let alone point out the symbol of a particular force from WWII. but i wouldn't be upset if i happened to have it on a case(i wouldn't personally, but what-ifs are fun) and someone called me out. at least until i told them to chill out because it was just model soldiers for a game.

If people are upset by this patch, they should go search on Cafepress for SS, or Das Reich, or Totenkopf....