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war is hell and real . plastic men are plastic men . men in combat do things , men safe at home dont do . and the only way to understand that is to join the military serve in the infantry and take the ride . every side does what they have to kill the enemy and stay alive .

Big P wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
I think that given their general record, 100 civilians, any of whom may actually have been engaged in partisan warfare, is still a very good war record for the Fallschirmjager. Its not perfect, but its exemplary by comparison to other units. The perceived mutilation of soldiers is quite understandably something of a provocation for combat troops, and its not surprising that it led to some form of retribution.

The village was selected due to the corpses of Fallschirmjager being nearby.

The mutilation of troops has subsequently been suggested as to have been caused by animals feeding on the corpses. But I do have my own sources, based in Crete, that reliably inform me that Fallschirmjager hung-up in trees did have their throats slit...

"When Crete was taken in late May [1941], similar policies [reprisal actions] were introduced. Outraged by the part the islanders had played in resisting the invasion and attacking German paratroopers, General Kurt Student, commander of the XI Air Corps, ordered 'Revenge Operations', and explained to his troops what these were in terms that left no room for ambiguity: '1) Shootings; 2) Forced Levies; 3) Burning down villages; 4) Estermination (Ausrottung) of the male population of the entire region'. What these instructions led to was captured on film by Franz-Peter Weixler, who photographed an ad hoc firing party shooting the men of Kondomari in cold blood in the olive groves outside their village on 2 June. In Student's words: 'All operations are to be carried out with great speed, leaving aside all formalities and certainly dispensing with special courts.... These are not meant for beasts and murderers.' Greek sources estimate that 2,000 civilians were shot on Crete at this time. This figure is probably exaggerated; but we do know that the village of Kandanos was razed to the ground as a warning, and that large numbers of villagers were summarily shot not only in Kondomari but also in in Alikianos and elsewhere." (Mark Mazower Inside Hitler's Greece , 1993).

According to Tony Simpson in his book 'Operation Mercury' FJ Major Snowatzki forced British Pows to help clear the airfield of debris while under fire. Three who refused were shot by the Major.

Then there are the war crime for Holland in 1940 and 1944.

Also the shooting of US Prisoners by FJ6 outside Cisterna in January 1944.

I spent a good few years researching the Fallschirmjager for my MA and they aint the good boys people like to believe. Like all of the Wehrmacht, they had their dark side.


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ArbeitsSchu wrote: In certain parts of NI, the Union Flag would probably get you set on fire

Something tells me you aint been to Ireland recently...

Seems the Irish are busy getting all hot about something at the moment. I wouldn't want to risk "showing the colours" in certain places over that way. For that matter, I know Irishmen over here who get terribly annoyed about the whole thing.

Fallschirm still buff up cleaner on the whole than the Heer, and the Heer are cleaner than the SS. Its all relative. Point is, how "dirty" does a unit have to be before wearing their BF patch is going to be unpalatable?


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George Spiggott wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:A case in point, I've always been into 40k and my wife (a Masters Graduate in Geography & Welsh, and a Phd in Town planning) has never taken more than a passing, vague and polite interest, she doesn't get it. Since I got into FOW, she went in to the spare room and wanted to know "What is this?" indicating the German Iron Cross Decalled units and Dice. She got a little upset, as her Great Uncle Douglas, alive up until 2003. Landed with the British Airbourne on D-day in a Horsa Glider, which smashed into a Canal, killing 10 of his squad when the Jeep bounced loose. He was captured on 6th of June near the Merville battery and was a POW till the late war. Her Father, had typed up his memoires in the late 90's on a PC.

I think you missed an opportunity there. You should have come out of the Nazi closet and told her that you are a Nazi lover and furthermore that you have chosen to show your hatred of the untermensch and your desire for lebensraum through the medium of your little iron cross dice. She's obviously a smart woman and would have immediately seen the truth in what you were saying. In time she would have come to accept you for what you really are.

On a more serious note, she was obviously ok with all the little 'Nazi' tanks and men you have. Was this perhaps because she didn't recognise them for what they are?

I'm well tempted to try this theory out on Mrs Spiggott. I'll get back to you with an answer.

Should I prepare the spare bed for when Mrs Spiggot brains you with a carry-case full of lead men?

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
Seems the Irish are busy getting all hot about something at the moment. I wouldn't want to risk "showing the colours" in certain places over that way. For that matter, I know Irishmen over here who get terribly annoyed about the whole thing.

Yer... You do know that its the Loyalist rioting the other night? Thats the ones waving the Union Jack... To be honest, US perceptions of the 'Troubles' tend to be often very wide of the mark. I had one American ask me what tanks the British used in Belfast as they figured it was like Baghdad and a full blown war.

Do you mean real Irish people, or those Americans that like to pretend they are Irish? You know... The ones that gave money to a terrorist organisation.

If War Crimes only count on a sliding scale, then yes, the FJ do have a better record than most, but thats a moot point to those on Crete. They still carry the scars of the occupation and still hate Germans. Having visited the island several times, it still amazes me how much of that hostility remains. Both the USA and GB were so lucky they never had to feel the pain of Nazi occupation.

Few military units can claim a clean sheet. Things happen in war and its a dirty business. I know of 'war crimes' committed by the BEF in 1940, but you never here about them. Isolated istances and their associated rarity doesnt make it any less wrong.

Anyway, all a bit off-topic.

Would I carry a bag with an SS symbol on - no, not my cup-o-tea anymore.

Well, my wife understands that my German Army is really just models and not an underlining German fetish. However she doesn't want them out in a Glass case, becuase she thinks most people won't understand. Fair enough I think, she's not making me give it up but just be a bit careful that it's not some overt thing. I don't know how anyone can be an a LARP (re-enactor) all I can think about is "PEEP SHOW" when he ends up with that crazy slightly racist re-enactor. Or the "Mitchell and Webb look" sketch with the German Officers asking "Do you ever think, er, we've got skulls on our caps, are we the bad guys?"

Yup... Thats pretty much how Waffen-SS reenactment goes...

They dont get invited to alot of shows. I remember one unit who at an event had a big black SS rune flag flying... that didnt go down well.

My issue was more the fact that they were all too well fed to be SS troops.

I have seen one LAH Panzer Commander who would have a hard time getting in the turret hatch... My other pet hate was the guys who had beards and long hair! Why got to all the trouble of having the right kit and then long hair and a goatee? Looked so ridiculous... As for the unit who dressed their kids up as Hitler Youth... Well that really does ring alarm bells.

Off topic rambling again... Sorry.

No, Big P it is very relevant, this topic is all about public perceptions to Symbology and Iconography. About what is acceptable and what isn't.

Here is a good pair to illustrate my point.



The Red cross, sign of Healing and aid in desperate times.



What is acceptable in most area's of the world is not in others. Hence SWASTIKA is acceptable in Hindi temples and other religions but in the Western Hemisphere would be frowned upon. Everyone needs to take responsibility for themselves and be concious of offending people with their attire and attitudes and language. Freedom of expression is not freedom to offend neither is it freedom to be intimidating. It is to be able to live in peace within the overall framework of the Law and not oppress, offend or belittle others in your society. Some radical mantra's are ridiculously offensive and living a relatively tolerant society like the UK makes me very happy and proud. Having been to Saudi Arabia and other places, it drives home the strength of tolerance but equally the marginalisation of radicals of Religious and Political hues.

"All it takes for Evil to flourish, is for good men to stand idly by". I would have no problem asking someone to remove an SS Patch from a Bag or remove a T-shirt, same as with people with large print Profanity on a T-shirt in public. It's about social respect and social responsibility. Broken record...

Big P wrote:
Few military units can claim a clean sheet. Things happen in war and its a dirty business. I know of 'war crimes' committed by the BEF in 1940, but you never here about them. Isolated istances and their associated rarity doesnt make it any less wrong.

Nail on the head! What was I trying to post last night but just couldnt seem to word it well enough for me to put it here.
No one comes out clean in war.

However, another thing is to not condemn an entire group for the misdeeds of some. Not every Waffen SS soldier was a war criminal and alot of them fought with distinction no less valid then any allied soldier.
And if that is hard to swallow, think of this.

Not Every US Marine in Vietnam were "baby killers". To hold that opinion is to dishonor their service in my most humble opinion.


Black Edelweis by Johann Voss

suggested reading.

infinite_array wrote:There's a stereotype when people think of the American Civil War - that it was fought to end slavery. This is, in fact, wrong. Slavery may have been a factor in the War, but it certainly wasn't a deciding factor when some states seceded and formed the Confederacy. The Confederate flag stands for States Rights over Federal Power - a conflict that was still ongoing just before the ACW, and which the ACW ended.

Actually said battle is decidedly heating up again as the federal government turns more and more into a babysitting state. The healthcare act has many states fighting against it and many political action groups pushing states' rights louder than ever.

Either way only people with a clue about history really understand that the Civil War was fought over states' rights and not slavery. To the averege-Joe-on-the-street the Union fought to free the slaves, when in reality the Union fought to not lose half its tax base and the entirety of its agrarian production capability. As you said slavery definitely was a factor in the decisions of the south to feel they needed to secede to do things their way, but the Union really didn't go to war for that reason.

Symbols only have so much power as people give them.

Skriker


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Phototoxin wrote:Also I do find it interesting that the holocaust wasn't a big thing until much later, that the number keeps going up and up every few years. When I did history about 10 years ago it was 3.5 million. It might border on denial bt I do think it's quite a disproportionate thing. Genocides in Rawanda no one cares about..

Sadly the *Never again* mantra has morphed solidly into *Never again to US*. It really bothers me that the EU and US charge in with guns blazing to help those being repressed in Libya for a short time and continue to ignore the rest of the ethnic cleansing happening on the rest of the continent. It bothers me even more when you realize that a lot of the killing happening in the rest of the continent is based on lines drawn on the indigenous peoples by European colonists in the 18th and 19th centuries as a way to divide the threat of a whole combined native population.

Can we at least do away with the BS rationalization that makes everyone look like idiots when they help in Libya and not in other parts of Africa?? Come on. Have the balls to say "We are going into Libya in the hopes of garnering a better oil deal with a new regime." Do governments really think their people are that stupid??

Skriker

Funny part about the Totenkopf symbol, some people wear it without even knowing what it still stands/stood for. Most people are oblivious to the symbolism behind it.

Yes I actually do have the patch on my FoW bag (Have SS 3rd Totenkopf for EW/MW/LW), just like I have the British patch for my other FoW bag (Have French EW/Brits for MW/LW). I use flags with Swastika's on them on my looted vehicles. Does that make me a Neo-Nazi? No, that is a ignorant statement. It's a HISTORICAL wargame.

Uneducated or also known as "sheltering" people from history is why we have people who have no clue OR refuse to believe that the Holocaust ever happened.

I guess that's the funny thing about symbols in general; people attach so much to them. We make them what they are depending on how they're used.

I can cite countless symbols that currently mean something totally different today than what it was when it was created.

I can remember when I lived in Germany (then it was West Germany, Cold War times) back in the 70's and 80's (circa 76-84 to be exact) when KISS would tour there, they changed their lightning-s logo to the double-z logo as to not infer anything with the SS.....I believe, IIRC, it was part a German government thing and part tour-manager deal there, but I'm not sure. I suppose that may have been the early start of political correctness, but I think it was done with good intentions for the German community.

Yer... You do know that its the Loyalist rioting the other night? Thats the ones waving the Union Jack... To be honest, US perceptions of the 'Troubles' tend to be often very wide of the mark. I had one American ask me what tanks the British used in Belfast as they figured it was like Baghdad and a full blown war.

Do you mean real Irish people, or those Americans that like to pretend they are Irish? You know... The ones that gave money to a terrorist organisation.

Considering that the 'Troubles' period was a complex ethnoreligious-political conflict, it's easy to understand why most in the US aren't able to figure it out. Add to that the background spans some 389 years, I won't sweat the average American not getting it....as it is, British and Irish history can be pretty complex regardless. I can still remember pictures being beamed back in the US when I was young about those times and maybe due to media editing or whatever, yeah.....it kind of did look like Bagdad without the colors and sand....think most of those pics were of Derry, but it kind of looked like a warzone to me. I recall talking to a former Brit Para soldier who did the patrols in those times and he was 20 back then, and he said after a few weeks there, he said it turned his hair white due to the tension and stress (it's still white...like wow). I suppose Bagdad could be painted in the same light, but I can see where some may draw the comparison.....like I said before, I won't fault my fellow countrymen for not getting it, it's one of those things you have to be educated about I suppose.....

However, there are still those Irish-Catholics that still have active ties with their families in Ireland; you'll find that they're as real Irish as it gets, but yes, it was no surprise that the IRA (whether Provisional or Official) was getting support from them. Interesting to note that the period up until '72 was considered an 'insurrection' and then afterwards it was considered 'terrorism' by British authorities. Some Americans still retain their ties with the homeland, others don't; whether that makes them Euro-Americans, I'm not one to say as every family is different, but I'm pretty sure the Irish community is still strong in Massachusetts.....I can't speak for any other areas.

But hey.....good discussion nonetheless!

Skriker wrote:Either way only people with a clue about history really understand that the Civil War was fought over states' rights and not slavery.

And those who really, really know history know what the Lost Cause is and why people want to believe it was States Rights and not Slavery.

Ahtman wrote:

Skriker wrote:Either way only people with a clue about history really understand that the Civil War was fought over states' rights and not slavery.

And those who really, really know history know what the Lost Cause is and why people want to believe it was States Rights and not Slavery.

The true irony of reconstruction is the fact that the assassination of Lincoln did more harm then good for the South.

Big P wrote:I think the same thing when I see people wearing 1st SS LAH T-shirts...

Cant help but think its a little odd... I love WW2 but not sure what wearing a Waffen-SS t-shirt is meant to say. The only impression I imagine it would give to Joe Public is 'Im a Nazi - and Proud'.

But each to their own... Such displays aint really for me.


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As an aside, though a related one, I once saw a white guy get a severe warning from a group of coloured gentlemen over his wearing of a Confederate flag as a bandana.

To him its connotations were inoccuous, to this group they saw it as overtly racist.

Funny the same thing happened when I was in high school, what was interesting is the white kids started wearing the flag because black kids were wearing Malcom X shirts that said "It's a black thing, you wouldn't understand". I thought both sides were pretty stupid, but it was interesting that nobody cared when the white kids complained, only after they were ignored did they start wearing the "It's a white thing, you wouldn't understand" shirts, only then did the school step in.

Off topic - Going back to the Mitchell and Webb thing, these pair are a top UK Comedy Duo responsible for Peep Show and their own stand-up and possibly the greatest White Dwarf put down on mainstream TV.

"I'm cancelling it out of shame, just like my subscription to White Dwarf".

Here are some links..






Some priceless Quotes in these.

Oh and Armstrong and Miller are top too. (The RAF is not a million miles away from this).





The 1st sketch about the Deaths head symbol is quite relevant.

Big P wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
Seems the Irish are busy getting all hot about something at the moment. I wouldn't want to risk "showing the colours" in certain places over that way. For that matter, I know Irishmen over here who get terribly annoyed about the whole thing.

Yer... You do know that its the Loyalist rioting the other night? Thats the ones waving the Union Jack... To be honest, US perceptions of the 'Troubles' tend to be often very wide of the mark. I had one American ask me what tanks the British used in Belfast as they figured it was like Baghdad and a full blown war.

Do you mean real Irish people, or those Americans that like to pretend they are Irish? You know... The ones that gave money to a terrorist organisation.

If War Crimes only count on a sliding scale, then yes, the FJ do have a better record than most, but thats a moot point to those on Crete. They still carry the scars of the occupation and still hate Germans. Having visited the island several times, it still amazes me how much of that hostility remains. Both the USA and GB were so lucky they never had to feel the pain of Nazi occupation.

Few military units can claim a clean sheet. Things happen in war and its a dirty business. I know of 'war crimes' committed by the BEF in 1940, but you never here about them. Isolated istances and their associated rarity doesnt make it any less wrong.

Anyway, all a bit off-topic.

Would I carry a bag with an SS symbol on - no, not my cup-o-tea anymore.

I'm not American. I know that a Humber Pig isn't a tank. I mean real genuine Irishmen from Ireland (both sides of the border.) who still get monstrously pissed off about centuries of "troubles." Tip for a fun night's work... don't end up stuck between a flag-waving BNP-voting Englishman, and an equally "patriotic" Irishman when the alcohol has been flowing, because you will get EVERY MINUTE of those 800 years, or at least up until they start trying to glass each other. Some grudges just will not die.

I would like to point out that the totenkopf is not in fact a nazi symbol but a old Prussian military symbol worn by hussars as far back as Fred the Great. This is another case of misplaced symbolism.


As far as the evilness of plastic nazis goes I think that, for my generation at least, we've moved on a bit and can accept that its a game and not real life. After all if I play as germans in video games or table top games it doesn't eman I support the nazi cause, it just means I either like the aesthetics of the faction or the play style.

Yeah but you don't walk around your local shops/ shopping centre wearing a Black T shirt with the SS Symbol or Totenkopf on it.

Just noticed my profile has a teeny yank flag on it. Didn't even know that was there! Best change that before I get shot as a spy.

There is an old saying "The weight of words or symbols are only what you give them, while actions or inaction can bury a man"....

This is a game and the patches are simply there to act as unit identifiers and army markers.....not I think personal preferences. There isn't a country or army in existence that hasn't committed an atrocity. But it is the doom of men that we forget....and therefore repeat the failures and atrocities of the past. As a game about such a world altering event as WW2 its fun and strategic...not meant as a history lesson. Can it lead to a better understanding of history..YES! But this isn't a historical debate on modern influences to past atrocities and their current ramifications on a social conscience. Its a 15mm WW2 mini's game with cool tanks and patches and great "Fluff"...

At the end of WW2 the SS were declared a criminal organization, and quite right too, all symbols that are related to this criminal organization were banned in most countries in Europe by an international tribunal and this is still the case today.

Putting up national flags and saying "isn't this offensive as well?" has got nothing to do with anything, those national flags are not criminal organizations and have not been banned.

Playing a WW2 Wargame is fine, playing the SS is fine, its an important part of the history and should not be ignored, Putting a large Totenkopf symbol on your bag that you carry your figures around in is not fine.

No, it really isn't. Its a bag that you use to carry something around in, why does it need to have that symbol on it? Does it improve the performance of your army on the table? Is it necessary for your army's historical accuracy? Are you sooooo stupid that you cant tell which army is in which of your bags?

What are you then saying about yourself? That your a Nazi? OK maybe not, but are you saying "Ive got a Totenkopf army and I'm proud of it"? Or maybe "Ive got a Totenkopf army and I'm aware that they were a bunch of genocidal mass murdering psycho's that might have tortured and killed a relative of yours for gaks and giggles, but I'm okay with that and I'm willing to stand here on this Bus/Train station/Airport/High street/shopping centre and argue that they weren't all bad and some of them were really decent chaps if you got to know them over a pint"

Wargaming can and does have a negative image for many different reasons, do you think this helps?

Wargaming is not a History lesson? Really? Sorry, thats exactly what wargaming is, that is why wargaming was invented, that is the whole point, to have a better understanding of the history of war and then to train people not to make the same mistakes. I cant believe you have just described the history of a group of men that burned, raped, loooted and murdered their way across Europe and Asia as "Fluff"!!!!!!!

And dreager96 in one post you have illustrated exactly what is wrong with BF and it's nifty little "Cool" SS patches.

The SS are not "Cool", nothing about the SS is "Cool" and yet here we have a company that is, with its own twisted version of history making the SS "Cool" to a whole new generation that have little real understanding of the horror of global total war.


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MattRendar wrote:war is hell and real . plastic men are plastic men . men in combat do things , men safe at home dont do . and the only way to understand that is to join the military serve in the infantry and take the ride . every side does what they have to kill the enemy and stay alive .

This is very true, however most combat soldiers dont also round up all the women and children in an area, herd them into a building and set fire to it because they dont like them.


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Comintern wrote:

Big P wrote:
Few military units can claim a clean sheet. Things happen in war and its a dirty business. I know of 'war crimes' committed by the BEF in 1940, but you never here about them. Isolated istances and their associated rarity doesnt make it any less wrong.

Nail on the head! What was I trying to post last night but just couldnt seem to word it well enough for me to put it here.
No one comes out clean in war.

However, another thing is to not condemn an entire group for the misdeeds of some. Not every Waffen SS soldier was a war criminal and alot of them fought with distinction no less valid then any allied soldier.
And if that is hard to swallow, think of this.

Not Every US Marine in Vietnam were "baby killers". To hold that opinion is to dishonor their service in my most humble opinion.


Black Edelweis by Johann Voss

suggested reading.

But Im afraid your very wrong, an international court decided exactly that. Every Waffen SS Soldier WAS a war criminal because they belonged to a criminal organisation. And anyone who thinks that the Waffen SS were some how more noble or removed from what the rest of the SS were up to doesn't know their history very well.


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EmilCrane wrote:I would like to point out that the totenkopf is not in fact a nazi symbol but a old Prussian military symbol worn by hussars as far back as Fred the Great. This is another case of misplaced symbolism.


As far as the evilness of plastic nazis goes I think that, for my generation at least, we've moved on a bit and can accept that its a game and not real life. After all if I play as germans in video games or table top games it doesn't eman I support the nazi cause, it just means I either like the aesthetics of the faction or the play style.

Do you think the entire German population woke up one morning with a overwhelming hatred of all things Jewish and a burning desire to invade Poland? Do you not think that the "aesthetics of the faction" had something to do with winning over a proportion of the population to the Nazi way of thinking? Thats why they are not accetable in most of Europe, thats why in some countries you would get arrested with your "Cool" bag, not because your offending anyone, because you might be encouraging someome you idiot.


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Spacewolverine wrote:Funny part about the Totenkopf symbol, some people wear it without even knowing what it still stands/stood for. Most people are oblivious to the symbolism behind it.

Yes I actually do have the patch on my FoW bag (Have SS 3rd Totenkopf for EW/MW/LW), just like I have the British patch for my other FoW bag (Have French EW/Brits for MW/LW). I use flags with Swastika's on them on my looted vehicles. Does that make me a Neo-Nazi? No, that is a ignorant statement. It's a HISTORICAL wargame.

Uneducated or also known as "sheltering" people from history is why we have people who have no clue OR refuse to believe that the Holocaust ever happened.

Educating people is a noble thing and I'm all for that, exactly how are you educating someone by having a Totenkopf symbol on a bag?

Love self-righteous soap box internet screamers and the causes...its a fricken game...with no ill-intent or political views behind it. History is objective, this happened at this time to these people....cut and dry. All the "smart " people try to interject their opinions as to why or add in a "what -if". Not once did it mention in Flames of War that by using this product you are acknowledging the Heinous crimes committed by the 3rd Reich. GROW UP! The worst thing is life is some one who knows a little and thinks they know it all. Its a game. It does not infer a degree or working knowledge of History. But if you think people play a certain army for political views your an idiot. I have been in combat zones for the last 6 years...and nothing of what is written will ever come close to the truth of what happens here are has happened here. There are so many micro chasms in this place it would be impossible. Nor would I try to convey them in a game.

Its a game...

If the aesthetics of the faction were a contributing factor towards the popularity of the SS and its aims, then obviously they must have been "cool" at some point. (Anachronistic terminology notwithstanding.) You can't say "Nothing about the SS is cool" in one breath, then lambast another individual by saying "The coolness of the group is a contributing factor to their evil." You're right. The "aesthetics" is one of the major points about Nazi-ism that made it so dangerous and popular. Hugo Boss uniforms, expressly designed symbology (as opposed to random designs of inherited heraldry)... so by definition, the SS were "cool".

Also, I'm not sure that BF are doing a "twisted" version of history particularly. We aren't talking about Holocaust Denial here. Occasional details (Polish AAA or Air in Early War) are lacking, but certainly not mass revisionism.

And I think what Comintern was saying is that not every SS solider committed a War Crime. An international court could find an entire unit, army, or even race to be War Criminals, but that does not mean that every member of that unit, army etc actually did something considered a war crime.

I just wish people would remember the lines between fact and fiction. This is a fictional based, ww2 themed game were you get to maneuver historically accurate tanks and miniatures in make believe battles based on your own inputs and the roll of the dice. Like when we were kids and someone had to play the bad guy.

Symbols are everywhere and remembering that they are themed with the products and not with History goes a long way to avoid misunderstandings.

Yes when I look at the "SS" marking I know what historically they intoned...but as far as a game I see Fearless veteran infantry with cool camouflage and way too expensive in points.

But too also point that out, that we the "Western countries" fought over German technology; medical, rockets, physics, mechanical engineering isnt to say we didn't profit from there atrocities , is it?

At the end of the day we are talking about a logo here. OK, so maybe its not the most sensible thing to wear in certain areas, and one should be prepared to face some arguments about it, and like all "War" related things, its going to upset some people more than others, but its not as if BF have just released the PDFs for SS Totenkopfverrband and Untermenschen, with a colour insert of the various Concentration camp badges, a "How To" on painting striped pyjamas, and the scenario "Herd the Juden onto the train." using TT-scale track and enclosed wagons made of plasticard. Historically inaccurate they may be..playing loose and free with the capabilities of certain units for "game balance", yes they are... but promoting the SS and its ilk? No. "Twisted history"? Not really.

What the hell is wrong with you? You are defending the concept of carrying around, in public, a symbol of a unit that is regarded as the most evil, twisted and sick murderers in the history of warfare, a unit that was formed from concentration camp guards, a single unit that commited the worst attrocities in a war that is infamous for its barbarism and yet stands out heads above the rest.......... So that your bag looks good? Or you think your bag looks good anyway, I think you'd look like a Tool and if I saw you in the street, I'd tell you so.

dreager96: You have no personal knowlege of who I am or what Ive seen, so ram it sunshine! I also suggest you look up the actual history of wargaming itself and why it was invented.

Napoleon, in his day, was regarded by the people of Europe as being every bit as bad as Hitler and his armies did terrible things, he was responsible for the death of millions. And yet today he is admired by many and no one finds anything the least bit offensive about him or his armies. The laws and taboos surrounding Nazi symbols were put in place so that this never happens with Hitler, they are there to remind everone that we must never forget.

Use of these symbols in this way waters down their meaning and this is the way that such symbols become acceptable, and that is dangerous and why the rules, laws and taboos were created in the first place.

My part in this conversation is now over, as I have no wish to converse with anyone who deems this as acceptable.

If you have a burning desire to spend your money then why not spend it on something worthwhile and not a symbol of evil, murdering, scum.

Mod Edit: Rude personal attack.

I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.

Also, you're again invalidating your own arguments. The SS are the most evil, twisted and sick etc etc, but Napoleon was regarded as as bad as Hitler and his armies killed lots of people in nasty ways... Maybe you need to calm down, take a step back, and consider your examples before you make them, so as to avoid contradicting yourself?

Never mind that the Deaths Head is STILL in use today by a dozen or more military units across the world eh? Best tell them they're using the logo of evil murdering scum... I'm sure it will go down well when you tell them to "ram it."

ArbeitsSchu wrote:I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.

Well, there's a logical reason for this. I present John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad Theory:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/

Basically, because he gets to hide behind a veil of anonymity, he basically becomes, well, what we've seen here.

infinite_array wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:I can't imagine for a minute that if you talk to people in the street the way you talk to people here about whether you find their bag offensive, that you would do anything other than annoy people. Your point is occluded by the aggressive tone.

Well, there's a logical reason for this. I present John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad Theory:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/

Basically, because he gets to hide behind a veil of anonymity, he basically becomes, well, what we've seen here.

Your a bit of a gakker ain't you? You accuse me of the above but use YOUR anonymity to call me a F$%kwad? I live in Exeter, Devon, England and if anyone wants to arrange a personal meeting with me by PM thats fine with me.

As for you ArbeitsSchu if you consider that post to be aggressive then I suggest you get out more. How exactly have I contradicted myself? I have put forward an example of how a ruthless tyrant has been rehabilitated over time and pointed out that people felt the need to put measures in place to ensure that same situation didn't happen with the worlds worst tyrant and that everyday use of such symbols undermines that. Contradiction? I would suggest you look the word up because you don't seem to know its meaning.

You lot have annoyed me to the point that Im going to take some action on this, I will bring BF and these products to the attention of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and see what they think of it.

EmilCrane wrote:I would like to point out that the totenkopf is not in fact a nazi symbol but a old Prussian military symbol worn by hussars as far back as Fred the Great. This is another case of misplaced symbolism.

Actually its use dates back to the Thirty Years War. It was used by several Cuirassier units serving with the Swedish Army of the period. During the Seven Years War it was used by one unit of Prussian hussars. It also became the symbol of the 'Black Brunswickers' after the death of their duke.

It remained a Germanic symbol, seeing a resurgence as a Sturmtruppen symbol during WW1, large use among Freikorps during the civil unrest in Germany following WW1 and then it was adopted as the symbol for the SS. It was the symbol of the SS-Totenkopfverbände and many of those in 3rd SS Totenkopf were initially ex-camp guards, while the divisional leader, Theodor Eicke, was Commandant of Dachau Concentration Camp from 1933 until he was appointed as Inspector of Concentration Camps in 1935, a role he fulfilled with great aplomb overseeing the creation of many new camps. In 1940 he was replaced as Inspector by Oswald Pohl and led 'Kampfgruppe Eicke' that went on to become Totenkopf. The division started as it meant to go on, with its first war crime recorded at Le Paradis in 1940 with 97 British POWs executed.

Its use by the SS remains its most obvious, and visually well-known symbol. Its association with that particular group is well known and its that infamy that could be seen as the difficulty to many.

As for BF having great 'fluff'... Well they didnt really need to write much. We used to call it 'history' in my day.

The case of whether or not it is a suitable symbol to have on a gamebag is a valid one. As opinions here prove. To some it is emotive, to others it matters little. I dont think wargaming needs such displays, but I dont think Im the demographic that the product is aimed at.