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Honestly, I find it backwards for people to deem things like the swastika and the Confederate flag as "backwards" or "politically incorrect". These are honest events that happened, and we as a collective race should learn from these mistakes, not cover them up. Hitler's acts were inexcusable, but if all modern society does is try to hide the Nazi regime or throw it under the rug as a problem of the 1930's-40's, then we've got some serious issues.

Do these things represent very sensitive topics? Absolutely. Should we let people flaunt these symbols, of course not. However, people need to not only keep things in context, and in this case I hardly doubt a wargamer with an SS symbol on his bag is pro-Nazi, but we also need to accept that these atrocities happened, learn from them, and move on, rather than try to erase the ideas of the Nazi party.

I find no mistakes with the product.

My point is that the wider public are not Wargamers. They don't have the same sensibilities as us, the public still associate these symbols very readily with the evils of the Nazi regime and in many ways they are right to do so, as the psychological scars and that a large number of european families that lost family members and suffered, still feel it 70 years on. (Yes others did, however Europe, Russia & Japan suffered most proportionally)

Would you honestly carry one of these cases, with a Death's Head motif on Public transport? For the whole world to see? I believe you would be in for a world of problems. You could even potentially be charged for inciting Racial hatred. It is not wise to wear the SS Patches.

mwnciboo wrote:
You cannot as a Rational Human being, argue that the SS is just a symbol. I have been to Belsen, it sickened me to the core. SS was heavily into teutonic chivalric symbology coupled with their unspeakable inhuman acts, dipping subjects in ice water and nitrogen until they died to establish point of death, experiments on twins, the killing of Gypsies, Homosexuals, the disabled and anyone who questioned the regime. etc.

I really do not think that be associated with this in anyway is a good thing or can be condoned in anyway. BTW enjoying the debate, it hasn't descended into the ridiculous.....yet.

What's changed - in the UK you can legally abort for club foot, or cleft pallet (easily fixable) and Down's syndrome. They might be wearing white coats but most of medicine is actually a form of necromancy!

Also I do find it interesting that the holocaust wasn't a big thing until much later, that the number keeps going up and up every few years. When I did history about 10 years ago it was 3.5 million. It might border on denial bt I do think it's quite a disproportionate thing. Genocides in Rawanda no one cares about..

The problem is one of public perception.


While a wargamer may have no issues with such things, that is not the response of the average member of the public.

At the least it further adds to that veil of 'weirdoness' that covers gamers.

There is still a recognition, and association, with such symbols and the support of Nationalist and Nazi style political leanings. I know from first hand, having indulged in reenactment as a Waffen-SS soldier. I can tell you know, while some do it out of historical interest, others do have a rather unsavoury side to their, almost hero worship of the Waffen-SS formations, driven in no small part by the complete redefinition of the Waffen-SS by the popular history publishers... SS sell books, so over the last 20 years we have seen them turn from evil pariahs, to 'Hitlers Knights' with all the connotations that this gives with regards, honour, loyalty and chivalry. I have even seen one history of Das Reich, by a well published author, that mentions Oradour simply in a footnote stating it has no nearing on their military history.

We need to remember history, but is a fine line between remembering and turning something into something its not through glorification of only one aspect of them. This has happened with the Waffen-SS, whom I am reliably informed are 'kewl'.

Perhaps its an age thing. I grew up with war veterans as family members. My extended family fought on both sides in WW2, some in unsavoury formations. To me such symbols, as I have grown older, in part a certain sense of a persons psyche if they have them emblazoned on them. I wouldnt bat an eyelid at a Balkankreuz, but someone with SS runes on a bag... Well that may raise an eyebrow. I suppose if the person using it knows full well both sides of the coin with regards the Waffen-SS, then all well and good, but I suspect many dont.

Having worn a Waffen-SS uniform at public events, the reactions to it do range from nil to violence. Unsurprisingly the most positive responce I got was from British Army veterans who were interested in seeing the old enemy recreated, while the most vehement reactions came from a group of young Jewish men. I have no issue with either response, both were valid. As I got older, I found I didnt want to run around pretending to be a 'Nazi soldier' anymore. Besides... Too many fat reenactors these days. Most SS units look like Volksturm who have eaten too many pies.



Phototoxin,

No one cares about Africa in general Im afraid...

It is a matter of public perception. Many people might not even register that these symbols are "bad" per se, but try walking around in a Cradle of Filth "Vestal Masturbation" t-shirt in the average bus station. (Its the one with JESUS IS A C**T on the back and a Nun..er..you know..). Easily arrested as a public order offence. But a wolfsangel? You have to know what that means to be offended by it.

+1 Very well reasoned post. and yeah some re-enactors need to hit the PT a bit more. I wish there was more of an ACTORS bent on it, e.g. for Movies etc. Professional stuntmen and extra's (ex-service people). As a serviceman i get annoyed at the amateur look of some films and TV programs.

The Irish Army does alot of this TV Extras stuff. Having been on the ground in the Horn of Africa nobody cares about Africa, least of all other africans. Life is cheap, in africa its practically worthless.

ArbeitsSchu wrote: But a wolfsangel? You have to know what that means to be offended by it.

Indeed... But some do know what it means.

Besides, do we really want the ridiculous 'morally-outraged' tabloid press having a field day with "Nazi Bags for Toy Soldiers" headlines... Reminds me of the days when the tabloids found out that D&D had demons in them, and thus all RPGers were devil worshippers!

Well they are, but hey.

I'm in UR dungeon sacrificing ur virginz

You lucky fella...

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Nah, that's still pretty damn clean by the standards of the conflict. And as has long been established, regular troops engaging "partisans" or "irregulars" or "Guerillas" or whatever term is popular is always one huge grey area as to what is or is not a reasonable response. Compared to activities in Russia, or Das Reich at Oradour, its a remarkable restrained response.

Its amazing that turning an entire city packed with civilians into a furnace or Fire Bombing Tokyo is regarded as pretty damn clean. However when the other side does it, and its reprehensible. The victor gets to put on trial whoever they want, but it does not excuse the acts that both sides did. Pretty damn clean indeed.

mwnciboo wrote:...Would you honestly carry one of these cases, with a Death's Head motif on Public transport? For the whole world to see? ...

Guess Im lucky in the fact that I do not have to, nor would I ever really want to carry my army on public transportation. The most it would be seen in public in my life would be the movement from house to car, car to game store.

Perhaps though, on a college campus, such a item would be distasteful to some. Again though, one would need to know what they are looking at and know. Average person in the United States, I would say know a Swastika and some of the more "popular/well known" SS symbols. However, something like the Death's Head symbol I would say doubtful, very doubtful.

That doesnt make it okay though. I Really dont have a problem with this product because if you buy it, you are the one having to deal with it. Its not like they are forcing you to take the patches. You have to buy it.

I have no issue or reservation with the Balkankreuz patch. I find a fair number of war/video games have adapted that as being the socially tolerable symbol of WW2 era Germany. Moreover, the Iron Cross is still used by military formations in the modern day (in a different style), and predates World War 2 as well. The others might hit me as being a bit sketchy if I was to see them in any setting other than a historical wargaming event/shop.

Suffice to say, that kind of stuff could get BF blacklisted in more than a few european countries. Bad, bad idea on their part.

infinite_array wrote:

It may have the swastika, but there are still plenty of cultures around the world to whom the swastika is a religious symbol.

Yes i believe its one of the oldest symbols in the world. Its over 3000 years old.

And as a side note. The Imperial Army was just as bad if not worse than the Nazis or the Soviets yet there has been no mention of the atrocities they committed.

NO ONE would get angry if you walked around with a massive cherry blossom symbol on your stuff.

Phototoxin wrote:I'm irish. This is the butchers apron to me it is a symbol of opresson:



So for *safety* we should get rid of all union jacks lest other irishmen be offended?

Symbol of oppression my arse.
Should I also abhore the Irish Tricolour because of the murdering bastards that blew up innocent people, including their own?
Good grief. Get a grip man. Someone could say something about every national flag there is.
There is no comparison with the patches Mcwinboo has shown.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Good grief. Get a grip man. Someone could say something about every national flag there is.

I beg to differ.

I'm willing to bet there is a national flag you couldn't reasonably associate horrible acts with.

Name one

Formally Tibet?

And possibly...hmmm...yeah. Im going to stick with Tibet.

Canada?
Trinidad?
Jamaica?
Costa Rica?
Guyana?
Suriname?
Brazil?

And that's just looking at one region.

One that always annoys me is:



Nothing like turing a murdering psychopath into a folk hero... Of course this image on a tshirt does make it easy to identify a crapbag.


Thank God for Special Forces.


Jake

Jake,

That is the perfect exampleof what happens when the misinformed take an image and popularise it with no idea of what really went on...

Kinda neatly outlines the issue.

Gork,

Dont go wearing your Imperial Cherry Blossom around China... They remember.

Nanking....


And as far as Canada. They do not have a clean rap sheet when it comes to their Native American Population either.

I think most people are pretty safe walking around with any of that stuff. Since there is no swastika patch, most people won't even know what those mean, even the Totenkopf. (and, btw, the Totenkopf was also used by standard army/Heer tankers, not just SS!) A recent poll asking who the US declared independence from revealed only 60% of people asked knew we were once part of England. An obscure runic badge on the side of a bag isn't going to make one hill of difference.

Heck, I used to be amazed that the Flames of War dice still had the swastikas on some pieces, like the Afrika Korps ones, but they are not concerned with the political implications, they are creating historical miniatures.

Big P wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote: But a wolfsangel? You have to know what that means to be offended by it.

Indeed... But some do know what it means.

Besides, do we really want the ridiculous 'morally-outraged' tabloid press having a field day with "Nazi Bags for Toy Soldiers" headlines... Reminds me of the days when the tabloids found out that D&D had demons in them, and thus all RPGers were devil worshippers!

Well they are, but hey.

I want a BUF badge so I can hang about near the Daily Mail offices. Surely that "Very English Civil War" group must do those? Then they can have a "Nazi Bag" headline, and everyone else can have a "Nazi rag gets ironic rage." headline instead.


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Comintern wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Nah, that's still pretty damn clean by the standards of the conflict. And as has long been established, regular troops engaging "partisans" or "irregulars" or "Guerillas" or whatever term is popular is always one huge grey area as to what is or is not a reasonable response. Compared to activities in Russia, or Das Reich at Oradour, its a remarkable restrained response.

Its amazing that turning an entire city packed with civilians into a furnace or Fire Bombing Tokyo is regarded as pretty damn clean. However when the other side does it, and its reprehensible. The victor gets to put on trial whoever they want, but it does not excuse the acts that both sides did. Pretty damn clean indeed.

I was referring to the singular event of German paratroops shooting civilians, not Dresden. You brought that up.

I think that given their general record, 100 civilians, any of whom may actually have been engaged in partisan warfare, is still a very good war record for the Fallschirmjager. Its not perfect, but its exemplary by comparison to other units. The perceived mutilation of soldiers is quite understandably something of a provocation for combat troops, and its not surprising that it led to some form of retribution.

As for Dresden..as horrific as it is, when one initiates Total War, one should probably not be overly surprised if people wage Total war against you in return. I believe there is a quote about reaping whirlwinds that is often applied at this point.

I'm loathe to put any 'gaming' symbols on my carry case. I like my carry cases to look nondescript and have that magical 'does not contain valuables like an expensive laptop' aura to them.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:I'm irish. This is the butchers apron to me it is a symbol of opresson:



So for *safety* we should get rid of all union jacks lest other irishmen be offended?

Symbol of oppression my arse.
Should I also abhore the Irish Tricolour because of the murdering bastards that blew up innocent people, including their own?
Good grief. Get a grip man. Someone could say something about every national flag there is.
There is no comparison with the patches Mcwinboo has shown.

In the same way that Nazi iconography excites greater ire in Germany than it does in.. India...and the Rising Sun is likely to piss off the Chinese more than an Argentinian, the Union Flag is likely to generate some serious angst for the wearer in many places in Ireland (the land-mass rather than the nation.). In certain parts of NI, the Union Flag would probably get you set on fire, whilst the Totenkopf would hardly rate a second glance.

I recall in Tunisia my partner receiving several angry responses from locals, for no apparent reason. Then a rather less aggressive stall-holder pointed out that she was wearing a stars and stripes bandana. People assumed she was American. But wearing that same bandana in the UK, or the states... nothing. No problem.




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George Spiggott wrote:I'm loathe to put any 'gaming' symbols on my carry case. I like my carry cases to look nondescript and have that magical 'does not contain valuables like an expensive laptop' aura to them.

You could do the reverse? Get an E-Machine logo and stick it on there. Nobody steals that toss.

my opion as a combat vet who has been in the bloody dirty hell , life and death that war is . combat is so hard for anyone who hasn't participated in to under stand . every country has committed atrocities . because war it self is atrocities . some stick out more then others because the media centers on more then others . to me wargaming is such a forgien fake replica of real combat it doesn't offend me . but if your a wargamer you should have thick skin . your playing a game were you push hordes of people to there imaginary deaths and make sick jokes and laugh at the outcomes the " game" . honestly i could care less . i think its harmless toy playing for me , an adult who refuses to grow up lol . but people will say how evil the nazi were . ( wicth they were ) but then have no problem playing imperial guard who are hundreds of time more sinister and opressive . its just an idea i had . wargamers thicken up your skin your hobbies is a little out there to begin with dont take offense to everything out there . im going back to painting my zulu army who by the way disembowled and dismembered there enemy . then im going to paint some indians for my french indian wars who would rape women smash babies heads open and bite the fingers off preachers hand ( so they couldn't give holy sacrement ) then im going to paint some japanese for ww2 whod kill women and children and impale chinese civilians heads on stakes .. just kidding i like debate ..theres my two cents

The Deaths Head motif is not obscure, not by a long shot it many people know of it from History lessons at school, Media such as Sunday Papers, museum trips and Films (Schindlers list anyone). It might be a British and European thing, it was all a hell of a lot close to us than to most American Families living in the States (bar Hawaii and the Phillipines etc).

A case in point, I've always been into 40k and my wife (a Masters Graduate in Geography & Welsh, and a Phd in Town planning) has never taken more than a passing, vague and polite interest, she doesn't get it. Since I got into FOW, she went in to the spare room and wanted to know "What is this?" indicating the German Iron Cross Decalled units and Dice. She got a little upset, as her Great Uncle Douglas, alive up until 2003. Landed with the British Airbourne on D-day in a Horsa Glider, which smashed into a Canal, killing 10 of his squad when the Jeep bounced loose. He was captured on 6th of June near the Merville battery and was a POW till the late war. Her Father, had typed up his memoires in the late 90's on a PC.

She didn't have a problem with Fantasy, but this realistic setting and truth makes it very different to her. However I argued it was intellectual and a pastime and that I made model Airplanes with my Grandfather who was Pilot in the RAF 1942 -45. The 1st one he gave me was FW190 when I was 10. She made a house rule, that my German Army must not be on display and be kept in it's KR multicase and not put in my Glass cabinet. In a strange way I am not sure If I should collect a Para-Army to represent Cpl Doug Jacobs Company but I won't discuss it because much as I would like to do this, I think it is inappropriate, plus I love her and would not want to upset her or diminish my self in her eyes.

Freedom of expression is a fine ideal, but the human complications of our relationships our personal and national histories intertwine and make certain things less acceptable and palatable to others. In an Ideal world, Freedom of expression is great, but in reality we need boundabries to contain and mould our collective morals. Not everything goes. 99.99% of people on earth believe Child Abuse is abhorent, under freedom of expression someone could potentially say "I think this is good, there is nothing wrong with this". I absolutely believe in personal responsibility but I do not believe in complete freedom of expression, neither (in the UK) does the Law. Inciting Racial or religious hatred is an offence. I think being pragmatic we have to accept that there are many implicit rules within society we obey without thinking because it is the acceptable norm.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
I think that given their general record, 100 civilians, any of whom may actually have been engaged in partisan warfare, is still a very good war record for the Fallschirmjager. Its not perfect, but its exemplary by comparison to other units. The perceived mutilation of soldiers is quite understandably something of a provocation for combat troops, and its not surprising that it led to some form of retribution.

The village was selected due to the corpses of Fallschirmjager being nearby.

The mutilation of troops has subsequently been suggested as to have been caused by animals feeding on the corpses. But I do have my own sources, based in Crete, that reliably inform me that Fallschirmjager hung-up in trees did have their throats slit...

"When Crete was taken in late May [1941], similar policies [reprisal actions] were introduced. Outraged by the part the islanders had played in resisting the invasion and attacking German paratroopers, General Kurt Student, commander of the XI Air Corps, ordered 'Revenge Operations', and explained to his troops what these were in terms that left no room for ambiguity: '1) Shootings; 2) Forced Levies; 3) Burning down villages; 4) Estermination (Ausrottung) of the male population of the entire region'. What these instructions led to was captured on film by Franz-Peter Weixler, who photographed an ad hoc firing party shooting the men of Kondomari in cold blood in the olive groves outside their village on 2 June. In Student's words: 'All operations are to be carried out with great speed, leaving aside all formalities and certainly dispensing with special courts.... These are not meant for beasts and murderers.' Greek sources estimate that 2,000 civilians were shot on Crete at this time. This figure is probably exaggerated; but we do know that the village of Kandanos was razed to the ground as a warning, and that large numbers of villagers were summarily shot not only in Kondomari but also in in Alikianos and elsewhere." (Mark Mazower Inside Hitler's Greece , 1993).

According to Tony Simpson in his book 'Operation Mercury' FJ Major Snowatzki forced British Pows to help clear the airfield of debris while under fire. Three who refused were shot by the Major.

Then there are the war crime for Holland in 1940 and 1944.

Also the shooting of US Prisoners by FJ6 outside Cisterna in January 1944.

I spent a good few years researching the Fallschirmjager for my MA and they aint the good boys people like to believe. Like all of the Wehrmacht, they had their dark side.


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ArbeitsSchu wrote: In certain parts of NI, the Union Flag would probably get you set on fire

Something tells me you aint been to Ireland recently...

mwnciboo wrote:A case in point, I've always been into 40k and my wife (a Masters Graduate in Geography & Welsh, and a Phd in Town planning) has never taken more than a passing, vague and polite interest, she doesn't get it. Since I got into FOW, she went in to the spare room and wanted to know "What is this?" indicating the German Iron Cross Decalled units and Dice. She got a little upset, as her Great Uncle Douglas, alive up until 2003. Landed with the British Airbourne on D-day in a Horsa Glider, which smashed into a Canal, killing 10 of his squad when the Jeep bounced loose. He was captured on 6th of June near the Merville battery and was a POW till the late war. Her Father, had typed up his memoires in the late 90's on a PC.

I think you missed an opportunity there. You should have come out of the Nazi closet and told her that you are a Nazi lover and furthermore that you have chosen to show your hatred of the untermensch and your desire for lebensraum through the medium of your little iron cross dice. She's obviously a smart woman and would have immediately seen the truth in what you were saying. In time she would have come to accept you for what you really are.

On a more serious note, she was obviously ok with all the little 'Nazi' tanks and men you have. Was this perhaps because she didn't recognise them for what they are?

I'm well tempted to try this theory out on Mrs Spiggott. I'll get back to you with an answer.