Very few film franchises could get away with this poster... (Purrr on pg 4)

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**Kanluwen**

To be fair, it was as Batman as Adam West's series was.

It's just that we went from Grimdark to Supercomicsilly then they tried to go back to Grimdark and got trapped in Neon Glowpaint.

**Ahtman**

Kanluwen wrote:To be fair, it was as Batman as Adam West's series was.

I would say it was less, actually. The West Batman series at least had a coherent vision and follow through as opposed trying to be campy (and failing) and gothic (and failing) at the same time.

**dogma**

Goliath wrote:
So the people complaining about her not looking "catty" enough, are effectively complaining that Bruce Wayne doesn't look bat-like, when not wearing his bat suit.

Ah, I understand your point now. At first it seemed you claiming that Selina Kyle and Catwoman were entirely unrelated.

**MeanGreenStompa**

Still wanted my poison ivy...

**Kanluwen**

Ahtman wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:To be fair, it was as Batman as Adam West's series was.

I would say it was less, actually. The West Batman series at least had a coherent vision and follow through as opposed trying to be campy (and failing) and gothic (and failing) at the same time.

That's what happens when you switch from Tim Burton to Joel Schumacher.

**MeanGreenStompa**

The first two films, burton ones, were great. Batman Returns remains my favourite.

**Kanluwen**

I thought Batman Returns was fantastic when I was a little kid.

As I got older, it kind of became a bit more 'campy'.

For me, Bale is the "definitive" Batman as we've seen him in the comics. If Nolan had gone a bit more 'superpowered' I would have been ecstatic though.

**MeanGreenStompa**

It is true that whilst I once loved Danny Elfman's music, it's total saturation of everything and anything in the entertainment business has bored me to the point of total ambivalence.

**Cane**

Kanluwen wrote:I thought Batman Returns was fantastic when I was a little kid.

As I got older, it kind of became a bit more 'campy'.

For me, Bale is the "definitive" Batman as we've seen him in the comics. If Nolan had gone a bit more 'superpowered' I would have been ecstatic though.

I wish Nolan made Batman more of a detective like in the animated series and/or comics. He doesn't seem as super-intelligent as he should but overall its a solid take on the character.

**KingCracker**

Aww MAN I loved the animated series. That was a friggin great cartoon, kindda felt a little bit like dick Tracy but cooler and darker.

**biccat**

dogma wrote:
biccat wrote:Bane is a second tier villain.

Simply because he was an effective villain doesn't raise him to a top-tier villain.

In fact, it may be even less likely to make them a top-tier villain. Nobody wants to see a villain who wins all the time.

**Flashman**

biccat wrote:
dogma wrote:
biccat wrote:Bane is a second tier villain.

Simply because he was an effective villain doesn't raise him to a top-tier villain.

In fact, it may be even less likely to make them a top-tier villain. Nobody wants to see a villain who wins all the time.

He won once then he had his butt kicked by Azrael, who in turn eventually had his butt kicked by Batman (after a good training montage).

**Ahtman**

Flashman wrote:He won once

Which is one more than anyone else ever did. I mean, Bats has beaten up Superman on occasion.

Flashman wrote:then he had his butt kicked by Azrael

A guy wearing an Iron Man suit beat up a guy who didn't, and he had plot on his side.

Flashman wrote:who in turn eventually had his butt kicked by Batman (after a good training montage).

Well Batman was only broken once before so the odds he was going to come back and lose again so the odds of him losing weren't good. Also, he had plot on his side.

**dogma**

biccat wrote:
Simply because he was an effective villain doesn't raise him to a top-tier villain.

I mean, I probably wouldn't consider him a top-tier villain either, but my top-tier of Batman villains is basically Joker; with everyone else behind him due to his sheer awesomeness. However, I would place Bane on par with Poison Ivy and Two-face, at the very least.

Catwoman is of debatable villain status, she's more of an opponent or rival in that she is very rarely "evil" in the sense of Joker, Two-face, and other classic comic book villains.

biccat wrote:
In fact, it may be even less likely to make them a top-tier villain. Nobody wants to see a villain who wins all the time.

He doesn't win all the time, but he has won, and is one of maybe 3 villains that actually threaten Batman himself. Most of the others simply threaten Gotham in order to either accomplish a goal related to Gotham, or to annoy Batman.

**Cane**

Imo the big problem in comparing Bane to typical Batman villains is that he came about in the early 90's while most of the other ones like Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Penguin, Riddler, etc. came from the 60's or even earlier. Thats why he seems second class legacy-wise to just about all of those guys even though he's a relatively interesting and powerful villain in his own right.

**dogma**

That's probably true, he certainly has less notoriety amongst the "uninitiated".

For the perusal of interested parties.

**Kanluwen**

Bane is a nasty customer, and perfectly acceptable as a "top tier" villain.

He has that nasty combination of brain and brawn which is what makes him so deadly in my mind.

It's just a shame that the portrayals we've seen have mostly been of the "brawn".

**dogma**

There is a case to be made that a man with Bane's brawn would not have much brain if he didn't use it.

**Cane**

dogma wrote:That's probably true, he certainly has less notoriety amongst the "uninitiated".

For the perusal of interested parties.

Wow out of the top 12, 4 of them are from Batman which is the most out of any of the other franchises at the top. Bane's the 5th highest rated Batman villain but way down at no.34 overall FWIW

Kanluwen wrote:Bane is a nasty customer, and perfectly acceptable as a "top tier" villain.

He has that nasty combination of brain and brawn which is what makes him so deadly in my mind.

It's just a shame that the portrayals we've seen have mostly been of the "brawn".

That god damn Batman and Robin movie was responsible for that. The animated series and comics made him a much more interesting character.

**Kanluwen**

The animated series, which came before Batman and Robin, certainly didn't make him out consistently to be the "cunning" person he was portrayed as in the comics.

But yeah. He needs a good understanding to be portrayed in all his awesome.

**Cane**

Kanluwen wrote:The animated series, which came before Batman and Robin, certainly didn't make him out consistently to be the "cunning" person he was portrayed as in the comics.

But yeah. He needs a good understanding to be portrayed in all his awesome.

The animated series made Bane a relatively cunning character nonetheless.

That crappy Batman and Robin movie turned Bane into a grunting idiot.

**dogma**

Kanluwen wrote:The animated series, which came before Batman and Robin, certainly didn't make him out consistently to be the "cunning" person he was portrayed as in the comics.

He was cunning in the series, very much like Conan. In the comics he had more of a villainous Beast thing going, where he was intellectual and brutally imposing.

It is difficult, culturally, to portray a character that is both an intellectual force, and a physical one because popular media tends to revolve around the physical resolution of disputes, and therefore the "smartest" path will often be the one that involves the physically impressive character breaking lots of things; and that isn't something many people appreciate at first glance.

For example, Darkseid is a weak character because he often has no reason to not vaporize things with eye-beams other than not wanting to, which is a weak rationale in the absence of some kind of debilitating trauma.

**Cheesecat**

Bane looks decent, but cat women needs to look more catty.

**Kanluwen**

dogma wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:The animated series, which came before Batman and Robin, certainly didn't make him out consistently to be the "cunning" person he was portrayed as in the comics.

He was cunning in the series, very much like Conan. In the comics he had more of a villainous Beast thing going, where he was intellectual and brutally imposing.

It is difficult, culturally, to portray a character that is both an intellectual force, and a physical one because popular media tends to revolve around the physical resolution of disputes, and therefore the "smartest" path will often be the one that involves the physically impressive character breaking lots of things; and that isn't something many people appreciate at first glance.

For example, Darkseid is a weak character because he often has no reason to not vaporize things with eye-beams other than not wanting to, which is a weak rationale in the absence of some kind of debilitating trauma.

I'll have to rewatch the series, because I don't remember him being all that cunning.

I remember him, at one point, being outwitted by Batman with a teddy bear(albeit a teddy bear that he had growing up inside a political prison but still).

**Platuan4th**

Ahtman wrote:
Flashman wrote:He won once

Which is one more than anyone else ever did.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Deathstroke has beaten him(Bats) at least twice(the commonly agreed upon number of times is 3).

Then again, we're talking about someone who not only beat up half the JSA and JLA at the same time [i]by himself[/b], but also posed as Batman and was good enough at it to fool Dick Grayson for months.

**Cane**

Kanluwen wrote:
dogma wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:The animated series, which came before Batman and Robin, certainly didn't make him out consistently to be the "cunning" person he was portrayed as in the comics.

He was cunning in the series, very much like Conan. In the comics he had more of a villainous Beast thing going, where he was intellectual and brutally imposing.

It is difficult, culturally, to portray a character that is both an intellectual force, and a physical one because popular media tends to revolve around the physical resolution of disputes, and therefore the "smartest" path will often be the one that involves the physically impressive character breaking lots of things; and that isn't something many people appreciate at first glance.

For example, Darkseid is a weak character because he often has no reason to not vaporize things with eye-beams other than not wanting to, which is a weak rationale in the absence of some kind of debilitating trauma.

I'll have to rewatch the series, because I don't remember him being all that cunning.

I remember him, at one point, being outwitted by Batman with a teddy bear(albeit a teddy bear that he had growing up inside a political prison but still).

Here are excerpts from a wiki summarizing the first episode with Bane that demonstrate some of his cunning abilities although everyone loses to Batman in the end (and imo the Nolan Batman fails to capture Batman's genius level IQ and detective abilities):

Rather than rushing in, Bane, curious to know how Batman fights, decides to tail the recently-escaped Killer Croc to a construction yard, where Croc is already on the run from Batman and Robin. Bane confronts Croc in the sewer, and brutally beats him, knocking him out. To leave his calling card, Bane literally smashes up the front of the Batmobile with his bare hands.
----
Meanwhile, Bane and Candice grow closer, plotting to overthrow and kill Thorne to take over his criminal empire. Robin spies on Thorne and Bane with binoculars from a nearby building as Batman tails Candace in the now-repaired Batmobile. Unfortunately, Bane sneaks up behind Robin and a rooftop chase ensues. Robin holds his own, but is eventually caught and knocked out by the chemically-enhanced behemoth.

Batman follows Candace to her apartment and starts questioning her about Bane. Candace tells him that Bane is fascinated by him, knows everything about him, and Bane's biggest dream is to defeat him. Just as Candace mocks Batman for not realizing that Bane is spying on him too, Batman receives a call from Bane himself, saying that he has kidnapped Robin - for proof, leaving his costume shirt on a nearby satellite dish for Batman to see - and ordering Batman to the wharves. As Batman flies, Candace leaves for the same destination.
---
http://dcanimated.wikia.com/wiki/Bane_(episode)

Much more cunning than the Bane featured in the god damn Batman and Robin movie which is responsible for turning Bane from an articulate and cunning super-assassin to a grunting and idiotic plaything.

**Flashman**

Cane wrote:and imo the Nolan Batman fails to capture Batman's genius level IQ and detective abilities

Nolan's Batman is more about exploring themes, fear in Batman Begins, anarchy in The Dark Knight.

I agree that the detective angle would an interesting route to go down for the inevitable reboot. Although rather than another film, I think a Batman TV series pitched somewhere between 24 and The Wire would work very well.

**Platuan4th**

Flashman wrote:
I agree that the detective angle would an interesting route to go down for the inevitable reboot.

Know what shows a good detective style Batman(if you removed the humor)? The Robert Downey Jr. Sherlock holmes. That whole movie was very reminiscent of Comic Bats(even down to the pre-thought out fight ala Hush).

Also, watch the Commentary for Daredevil and count how many times the director says something akin to "Well, I was thinking if I was doing a Batman movie...".

**Ahtman**

Platuan4th wrote:
Ahtman wrote:
Flashman wrote:He won once

Which is one more than anyone else ever did.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Deathstroke has beaten him(Bats) at least twice(the commonly agreed upon number of times is 3).

Then again, we're talking about someone who not only beat up half the JSA and JLA at the same time [i]by himself[/b], but also posed as Batman and was good enough at it to fool Dick Grayson for months.

He knocked Batman out but he didn't break him completely the way Bane did, and considering that Deathstroke is metahuman and takes on groups of metahumans typically it shouldn't be all that surprising. I should have been more clear that I wasn't referring to just winning in hand to hand, which Deathstroke has done, but in actually utterly destroying him. He made Batman a paraplegic and it took comic book magic to bring him back, he wasn't just knocked unconscious.

**Mannahnin**

Any kind of win over Batman counts as a heck of an accomplishment.