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In the United States, at least, 33k is average, 26k is median.

Using the "household income" definition is the only way you can raise it to 50k (not 60k), that would be the combined income of all members of a household, not individual incomes. Source is the US Census Bureau...

According to USNews the median is actually around $50,000. In my state the median is $59,330. Texas is around $48,259. It looks like the lowest is in W. Virginia with 37,435, Maryland is highest with 69,272.

The average would be $53,353, if those statistics are true.

Now in 2007 according to wikipedia( yeah wikipedia, which got a chart from some other organization that compared OECD countries) stated the US was second highest in disposable income, being beaten only by Luxembourg.

But we also have the fact that people tend to get married and if there is poverty both parents tend to work to gain income and when those kids are old enough they also tend to try to get a job.

Individuals 25+
male= $39,403 for part time, $43,317 for full time
female= $26,507 for part time, $33,075 for full time
And those rates were in 2005

Tigerone wrote:
6000 plus posts vs less than 100? I took yesterday and today off....Maybe that has something to do with the difference in POV.

The "You're clearly a nerd!" argument.

Haven't seen that one in a while.

dogma wrote:

Tigerone wrote:
6000 plus posts vs less than 100? I took yesterday and today off....Maybe that has something to do with the difference in POV.

The "You're clearly a nerd!" argument.

Haven't seen that one in a while.

I don't see it as the "clearly a nerd" argument, more of a "You tried to call me out but you have no evidence so shut your face" argument.

halonachos wrote:
Being born isn't luck, its genetics. So with that, poverty is hereditary and I am away on this one.

Christ, let's mess with the definition of "luck" more, I'm sure we can eventually find one we like.

halonachos wrote:But we also have the fact that people tend to get married and if there is poverty both parents tend to work to gain income and when those kids are old enough they also tend to try to get a job.

I know that this is the generally accepted wisdom and that it makes sense, but I wonder if the statistics bear it out. Especially given that marriage rates tend to decrease as household income decreases.

halonachos wrote:
I don't see it as the "clearly a nerd" argument, more of a "You tried to call me out but you have no evidence so shut your face" argument.

Yeah, that's why people cite post counts. Because they think their opponent has no evidence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

biccat wrote: Especially given that marriage rates tend to decrease as household income decreases.

Marriage is a bell curve, the middle class marries often, but the upper and lower tend to avoid it; relatively.

Phototoxin wrote:I'm not reading through 5 pages - but technically in the UK I'm 'relatively poor' as I don't own a television..

The expected standard of living in society changes as technology advances.

The Internet was almost purely a nerd zone 16 years ago. Nowadays it is still possible to search the phone directory, change your driving licence address and books flights by visiting places and filling in paper forms, however it is much more time-consuming and irksome than using the Internet.

Public libraries provide free access (while there are any left.) So not having a computer and broadband at home does not technically disqualify you from membership in modern society, but it puts you in a distinctly second class citizen bracket.

Does that matter?

Let’s not forget about children. Middle and upper class tend to have fewer children which lead to more disposable income and a better standard of living. Lower income people tend to have more children that lead to even a worse standard of living

dogma wrote:

biccat wrote: Especially given that marriage rates tend to decrease as household income decreases.

Marriage is a bell curve, the middle class marries often, but the upper and lower tend to avoid it; relatively.

Well, here's a chart showing statistics from 1998. I haven't seen anything more recent.

But in that, the difference between the 4th and 5th quintiles for women is within the margin of error and for men it's not hugely significant. But what's really interesting is when you look at earnings of spouses. Many tend to marry someone with a similar income, so wealthy marry wealthy and poor marry poor. This tends to skew household earnings even more.

Dear Melissa you're completely wrong about the GOP ignoring poverty as an issue in their race. The candidates have spelled out a clear cut plan on how to end poverty in America.

#1 Cut the corporate tax rate.

#2 Cut capitol gains taxes.

#3 Maintain the Bush era tax cuts for the wealthy.

#4 Broaden the tax base to include everybody over 18 even if they are under the poverty line or seniors on a fixed income.

#5 Cut entitlements for the poor.

Do all 5 and the GOP says the free market will fix everything, and the poor will pull themselves up by the boot straps. Here is the point where you are completely wrong about the GOP Melissa; you are attempting to make the case that the GOP is ignoring the issue when the indisputable fact is they have clearly defined their plan to fix poverty in America. That being said I'm going to make the bold assumption that you believe the GOP's plans and solutions are a steaming pile of gak they are attempting to feed to their own base. Instead of a steaming pile of gak I'm going to give it the more moderate name of cool aid, and make the case that the GOP both loves the taste of their own cool aid and honestly believe (Or delusional belief) that it will help poverty in America. You can say a lot of nasty things about the GOP primary race, but I think it's not accurate to say they are ignoring poverty when a huge chunk of their base is very poor, very religious, and very much enjoys the taste of that cool aid. If you're having a hard time understanding them I have a couple of simple suggestions. Find Jesus, move to a trailer park, give up hygiene, brew some crystal meth your bath tub, and start having sex with your brother. Don't worry you'll still be cute with half your teeth, just think of your mouth being half full of your teeth being half gone.

schadenfreude wrote:Dear Melissa you're completely wrong about the GOP ignoring poverty as an issue in their race. The candidates have spelled out a clear cut plan on how to end poverty in America.

#1 Cut the corporate tax rate.

#2 Cut capitol gains taxes.

#3 Maintain the Bush era tax cuts for the wealthy.

#4 Broaden the tax base to include everybody over 18 even if they are under the poverty line or seniors on a fixed income.

#5 Cut entitlements for the poor.

Do all 5 and the GOP says the free market will fix everything, and the poor will pull themselves up by the boot straps. Here is the point where you are completely wrong about the GOP Melissa; you are attempting to make the case that the GOP is ignoring the issue when the indisputable fact is they have clearly defined their plan to fix poverty in America. That being said I'm going to make the bold assumption that you believe the GOP's plans and solutions are a steaming pile of gak they are attempting to feed to their own base. Instead of a steaming pile of gak I'm going to give it the more moderate name of cool aid, and make the case that the GOP both loves the taste of their own cool aid and honestly believe (Or delusional belief) that it will help poverty in America. You can say a lot of nasty things about the GOP primary race, but I think it's not accurate to say they are ignoring poverty when a huge chunk of their base is very poor, very religious, and very much enjoys the taste of that cool aid. If you're having a hard time understanding them I have a couple of simple suggestions. Find Jesus, move to a trailer park, give up hygiene, brew some crystal meth your bath tub, and start having sex with your brother. Don't worry you'll still be cute with half your teeth, just think of your mouth being half full of your teeth being half gone.

The theory is that you improve the economy so the poor can get jobs and not be poor any more.
My man Clinton liked it.

The thing about "median income" is that for every person making twice the median, there are two making half the median.

schadenfreude wrote:Dear Melissa you're completely wrong about the GOP ignoring poverty as an issue in their race. The candidates have spelled out a clear cut plan on how to end poverty in America.

#1 Cut the corporate tax rate.

#2 Cut capitol gains taxes.

#3 Maintain the Bush era tax cuts for the wealthy.

#4 Broaden the tax base to include everybody over 18 even if they are under the poverty line or seniors on a fixed income.

#5 Cut entitlements for the poor.

#1: Help the corporations that feed money into the GOP. Does not guarentee the creation of jobs nor does it prevent the loss of same.
#2: Benefits those that make significant "capitol gains" such as stock brokers and their wealthier clients, a.k.a. People that help fund the GOP. People that lack the monies to make the initial investments get zero benefit from cutting this.
#3: Benefits only those that are subject to this tax already and does not offer any benefit to lower incomes.
#4: Hurts those already having money issues and does not increase revenues nearly as much as some would believe. Everyone that is employed pays some kind of tax on their income, Taxing people that are not actually working creates a negative income stream.
#5: A sticky subject that will never actually get done. Too many people in Government have a stake in keeping those programs in place.

CRIMINALS
SEND THEM ALL TO JAIL

Grundz wrote:SEND THEM ALL TO JAIL

They're already in jail. It's called a 'Retirement Care Facility'

LordofHats wrote:

Grundz wrote:SEND THEM ALL TO JAIL

They're already in jail. It's called a 'Retirement Care Facility'

not the children and the poor people, YET

Grundz wrote:not the children and the poor people, YET

Life is enough of a prison... and school...

Nah prison is like prison. School is like the happy funtime before the hell of work starts.

Perhaps little Oliver wouldn't mind 2 meager meals a day working his taxes off in debtors prison... for life.

helgrenze wrote:Perhaps little Oliver wouldn't mind 2 meager meals a day working his taxes off in debtors prison... for life.

Excuse me sir...may I have some more?

Frazzled wrote:

helgrenze wrote:Perhaps little Oliver wouldn't mind 2 meager meals a day working his taxes off in debtors prison... for life.

Excuse me sir...may I have some more?

Sure, it will only cost you an extra fortnight of hard labor... such a fair deal isn't it?

Frazzled wrote:The theory is that you improve the economy so the poor can get jobs and not be poor any more.
My man Clinton liked it.

Improving the economy doesn't help the poor. The poor are poor because the evil rich people make them poor. The only way to not be poor is to take money from the Rich and give it to wealthy DNC campaign donors.

Or at least that's the White House plan for fighting poverty. We'll see if it works.

Improving the economy doesn't help the poor. The poor are poor because the evil rich people make them poor. The only way to not be poor is to take money from the Rich and give it to wealthy DNC campaign donors.

Or at least that's the White House plan for fighting poverty. We'll see if it works.

I like it better than "let it rain" economics

Grundz wrote:

Improving the economy doesn't help the poor. The poor are poor because the evil rich people make them poor. The only way to not be poor is to take money from the Rich and give it to wealthy DNC campaign donors.

Or at least that's the White House plan for fighting poverty. We'll see if it works.

I like it better than "let it rain" economics

you have to pray for that rain... and then is still doesn't come... Just ask TEXAS about rain

frgsinwntr wrote:

Grundz wrote:

Improving the economy doesn't help the poor. The poor are poor because the evil rich people make them poor. The only way to not be poor is to take money from the Rich and give it to wealthy DNC campaign donors.

Or at least that's the White House plan for fighting poverty. We'll see if it works.

I like it better than "let it rain" economics

you have to pray for that rain... and then is still doesn't come... Just ask TEXAS about rain

I'm pretty sure the precipitation (wealth) of the top 1% has to be at least 90-100% before it will rain.
maybe we should seed the clouds with bullets

sorry but I gotta comment on this, and this is my opinion and I am not flaming you, so let's try to play nice

schadenfreude wrote:Dear Melissa you're completely wrong about the GOP ignoring poverty as an issue in their race. The candidates have spelled out a clear cut plan on how to end poverty in America.

#1 Cut the corporate tax rate.

This is just an utterly false statement. Not only has job creation been higher and economic growth at it's strongest in our nation when taxes were at their highest, there is zero empirical evidence to back up such a fallacy of a claim. FACTS: Right now corporate America is sitting on 2 trillion surplus of profits, the lowest taxes and interest rates in over 60 years and they aren't creating jobs. They are using this to ruse you. Follow corporate money, look at what politicians it goes to, look at what they lobby for. Look at Rick Perry, homeboy is a prime example of corruption in government. He gets bought out and runs the pay to play politics. Why do you think he got in an uproar about the AT&T and T-Mobile merger? Was it because AT&T has given him multiple 100s of thousands of dollars over the years, or did he genuinely think that the merger would help the citizens and consumers of this nation?

#2 Cut capitol gains taxes.

Cut? No. Reform? yes. The problem with capital gains taxes and that they do not reflect income tax at all, and are on a totally separate bracket. Rich people, who can cut their salary from their jobs down to a lower rate and take payment in other forms like: Stocks, bonds, property, tangible goods, etc. have to pay taxes on it. However, those taxes are not the same as your income tax. You aren't paying state and federal taxes on it, you are paying medicare taxes, social security and so forth. This off balances what a person really nets every year versus what they pay in taxes. There are property taxes and sometimes a one time gift tax involved with some of these things, but dropping or lowering the tax will not fix our budget and debt issues.

#3 Maintain the Bush era tax cuts for the wealthy.

Yes, that has worked so well for our economy so far.

#4 Broaden the tax base to include everybody over 18 even if they are under the poverty line or seniors on a fixed income.

Everyone who has a job pays taxes period. Even illegals aliens pay taxes in this country. The only time someone doesn't pay taxes is if they are working a cash only job with no paper trail. Granted, people do cheat on their taxes. Part of your welfare check will even go to taxes I believe. I don't know of any situation where you gain income and don't owe taxes.

#5 Cut entitlements for the poor.

Cutting entitlements to corporate welfare will save money on an exponential level over cutting any sort of social program. The GOP is great at pointing out how much money welfare, social security, and any sort of social program costs, but yet they never bring up the tax holidays the government grants corporations. The tax cuts they give them, and every other bonus, and every other bonus and discount they give them. Then they turn around and say they are going to do it to create jobs, which is total and utter bs. They aren't creating jobs because they have the lowest taxes in 60 years right now. Companies only hire when they need to, period, not if they have more money laying around.

Do all 5 and the GOP says the free market will fix everything, and the poor will pull themselves up by the boot straps. Here is the point where you are completely wrong about the GOP Melissa; you are attempting to make the case that the GOP is ignoring the issue when the indisputable fact is they have clearly defined their plan to fix poverty in America. That being said I'm going to make the bold assumption that you believe the GOP's plans and solutions are a steaming pile of gak they are attempting to feed to their own base. Instead of a steaming pile of gak I'm going to give it the more moderate name of cool aid, and make the case that the GOP both loves the taste of their own cool aid and honestly believe (Or delusional belief) that it will help poverty in America. You can say a lot of nasty things about the GOP primary race, but I think it's not accurate to say they are ignoring poverty when a huge chunk of their base is very poor, very religious, and very much enjoys the taste of that cool aid. If you're having a hard time understanding them I have a couple of simple suggestions. Find Jesus, move to a trailer park, give up hygiene, brew some crystal meth your bath tub, and start having sex with your brother. Don't worry you'll still be cute with half your teeth, just think of your mouth being half full of your teeth being half gone.

Now this I agree with you on. Politics in this country is no longer on what is best for this country at the moment basis. Instead, both Democrats and Republicans are pretty much the exact same party when it comes to the following: Authoritarianism, military expansion, government expansion, corporate welfare, invasion of rights (see Patriot Act), and several other parallels. Now what the Democrats and Republicans oppose from each other, are social issues like: Gay marriage, woman's rights and pro choice and pro life, religion, gun control, being liberal/conservative, social/private programs and services.

I will give the Democrats some credit on trying to at least reform health care, at least reform taxes, but they are just as influenced by the rich and corporate as the GOP, so they tend to put up a good show, but never follow through. That is maybe because they want to keep their lobbyist money coming in from the corporations.

Crom wrote:we should cut all taxes

I agree! god bless mamerica

Grundz wrote:maybe we should seed the clouds with bullets

So we're going from metaphorical class warfare to literal class warfare? At least you're being honest.

Crom wrote:Everyone who has a job pays taxes period. Even illegals aliens pay taxes in this country. The only time someone doesn't pay taxes is if they are working a cash only job with no paper trail. Granted, people do cheat on their taxes. Part of your welfare check will even go to taxes I believe. I don't know of any situation where you gain income and don't owe taxes.

EITC - Google, read, learn. Education is a valuable thing.

biccat wrote:

Grundz wrote:maybe we should seed the clouds with bullets

So we're going from metaphorical class warfare to literal class warfare? At least you're being honest.

hey man, my shock has never ceased that with millions and millions being thrown out of their homes, life savings gone, jobs being lost, ect. No one has really taken a shot at the people responsible.
Not the president or a corrupt congressmen, the actual people responsible.

biccat wrote:

Grundz wrote:maybe we should seed the clouds with bullets

So we're going from metaphorical class warfare to literal class warfare? At least you're being honest.

Crom wrote:Everyone who has a job pays taxes period. Even illegals aliens pay taxes in this country. The only time someone doesn't pay taxes is if they are working a cash only job with no paper trail. Granted, people do cheat on their taxes. Part of your welfare check will even go to taxes I believe. I don't know of any situation where you gain income and don't owe taxes.

EITC - Google, read, learn. Education is a valuable thing.

I don't need to google it, you pay taxes on all forms of income, period. I cashed in a 30 year old bond my great grandparents bought me this year, and I owe taxes on it. Now there are certain forms of income you can pay taxes on once and that is it, or you don't pay taxes until you withdraw that money, however you still pay taxes. You are the one making the claim there are tons of people out there not paying taxes, you need to back that claim up. The people that don't pay taxes are technically criminals and are committing tax fraud. The foreigner that works at walmart has a tax ID, and gets a paycheck just like every other employee that pays state and federal taxes, and they don't reap any benefits from it.

So, again show me a situation where you gain assets/money and don't owe taxes? You inherit property, you now owe taxes on it, you buy a new car you pay taxes on it, you get that bonus at work you pay a bonus tax, etc. I was a sub contractor for about two years and I did not have any deductions from my checks because I got paid a contract rate, and you bet I owed taxes at the end of the year. I was able to itemize well enough I never owed that much, if anything at all, but I paid those taxes.

Now, if you are referring to people who have received tax cuts via the stimulus packages (1st one signed by GW Bush, 2nd by Obama) then yes, there have been a decent number of house holds that have qualified for tons of tax credits. However, that is still just a drop in the ocean to what was given to the corporate world in bail out money. Do these tax credits wipe out all forms of taxes? Nope, they sure don't.

Also, if you make under a certain amount of money you aren't required to file your taxes, however they still get deducted out of your paycheck. Not filing does not equal not paying any taxes.

So, I still have yet to find any way you can gain income and become completely tax exempt, besides being a child who cannot legally own anything and can also be claimed as a depended on someone else's taxes.