Could the Tau withstand a Hive Fleet?

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**Kanluwen**

agnosto wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Since when did the Demiurg have their worlds consumed by Tyranids?

It's one of the theories as to why they don't have a homeworld. I may have that confused with how the squats ended though. meh.

You indeed do have the two confused, as mentioned.
"Squats" and "Demiurg" might both be "Space Dwarfs"(putting it simply, at best)--but Demiurg do not equal Squats.

Anyway, both the Nicassaur and Demiurg don't have homeworlds and don't seem to be the worse for it.

But it's not because they were forced to "evacuate".

With the Nicassar, they are "driven by an insatiable curiosity to explore and travel, becoming semi-nomadic and most content only when traveling." which makes it seem more like they gave up having a homeworld in favor of going out amongst the stars to explore and travel. Going from a planetary based race to a race which favors space-based culture does not necessarily require a cataclysmic event.

The Demiurg...we don't have too much about to go off of. It might be that they gave up their homeworlds, again, in favor of becoming spacefaring wanderers. Given the generally beneficent nature of the Demiurg I can see them doing such a thing, so that they can go from sector to sector aiding races that they feel need it.

**Kroothawk**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:They would do the same if a big hive fleet approaches. So whether or not they win the fight, the race would survive easily.

Easily? What if the rest of the Tau worlds were consumed as well? Where would they run to? How long would they last without a manufacturing base?

If the Tyranids eat the whole galaxy, then obviously all races in the galaxy have a problem. Otherwise there are habitable worlds left to emigrate to.

And as the Tau have active knowledge of their technology (unlike the human empire that relies on old templates), they can rebuild manufacturies.

Connor MacLeod wrote:As already noted, the ability of the Tau to evacuate is not contested, assuming they have enough time (EG they don't get attacked by the Nids or otherwise disrupted while they try to evacuate.) Of course we also don't know how big a population it had to begin with - a few million tau are easier to evacuate than billions would be, for example.

And even if they do evacuate this is only a temporary solution at best, since it only delays conflict. And evacuating, again as noted, basically means they give up all the economic and military iinfrastructure they invest on the planet which will have to be replaced down the line - this is NOT trivial for them, and you just end up strengthening the Tyranid force when they consume all the planet's biomass and oceans without them having to expend military forces to take it.

As far as going "nomadic" goes - if they have the capability to exist purely in space-based form without any degradation to their empire or capability, why do they even bother with planets to begin with? Taking a planet simply gives your enemies a target to attack. I also question whether we know enough about the Demiurg or the Nicassar (the bulk of the information on either coming from BFG as I recall) to speculate on their actual societies.

1.) Dal’yth is a home planet, not a small colony. So Tau are able to evacuate a bigger population.
2.) Tau don't evacuate for fun. They evacuate to save the civil population. Nothing won if Tyranids consume the whole population as well. Better rebuild the infrastructure elsewhere than die. Remember: Tau don't think territorial.
3.) That said, of course the Tau fleet will fight back. They might win if the Hive fleet is small enough.

**Kanluwen**

You can't rebuild anything if there's no atmosphere to build within.

The Tau technology base seemingly isn't good enough to terraform their homeworlds, much less the barren and airless rocks that are left after the Tyranids get through with a world.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

agnosto wrote:I dunno, ask the Demiurg maybe since that's what happened to them and they still exist and even have a high tech capacity since they provided the Tau with Ion-Cannon tech.

We have no idea as to what happened to them.

Kroothawk wrote:
If the Tyranids eat the whole galaxy, then obviously all races in the galaxy have a problem. Otherwise there are habitable worlds left to emigrate to.

Which they'll probably have to fight over and they'll be in a terrible rush to do so. Losing all current planets isn't a minor thing. How would the Tau supply themselves with sufficient food? They'd have to take a fair number of worlds to be able to sustain themselves, and that's assuming that there are sufficient inhabitable and fertile planets nearby (and if there are, why wouldn't they already be colonised by the Tau?)

And as the Tau have active knowledge of their technology (unlike the human empire that relies on old templates), they can rebuild manufacturies.

If they have the time and the materials on whatever world they get to.

**Connor MacLeod**

Kroothawk wrote:
1.) Dal’yth is a home planet, not a small colony. So Tau are able to evacuate a bigger population.

So how big is it's population? I've heard of Tau planets having several billion (apocalypse I think) but I've also heard of them being far smaller than double digit billion hive worlds (Kill Team.) Saying "its a major population" doesnt tell me how many people it actually has.

2.) Tau don't evacuate for fun. They evacuate to save the civil population. Nothing won if Tyranids consume the whole population as well. Better rebuild the infrastructure elsewhere than die. Remember: Tau don't think territorial.

They don't think territorially? Then why do they even bother inhabiting planets to begin with? By your logic they should be staying entirely space bound, in mobile habitats. They shouldn't be going on planets, building factories, etc. And yet, they do.

And why the heck are you dismissing rebuilding infrastructure as trivial? Did the Tau magically gain the ability to create wraithbone at some point or something? I kind of doubt that, since they bled and died (including the death of an Ethereal - a being they will willingly fight and die in droves to protect, I might add.) to take Taros, and that was not exactly a trivial engagement for them.

**nomotog**

The big thing about the tau just running that there section of space thy have now is a very good section. Lots of habitual worlds in a very small space. It's unlikely that they could find anyplace nearly as good.

**Soladrin**

Or outrun an army that posses FTL travel.

**nomotog**

Soladrin wrote:Or outrun an army that posses FTL travel.

The tau do have FTL. You can't actually be a space empire without it. The nids have FTL too right?

**TrollPie**

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
1.) Dal’yth is a home planet, not a small colony. So Tau are able to evacuate a bigger population.

So how big is it's population? I've heard of Tau planets having several billion (apocalypse I think) but I've also heard of them being far smaller than double digit billion hive worlds (Kill Team.) Saying "its a major population" doesnt tell me how many people it actually has.

GW has never published any solid figures on pretty much anything. Dal'yth could be a tiny moon with farms taking up half the space or a world twice the size of Terra with cities underwater and in the sky.

2.) Tau don't evacuate for fun. They evacuate to save the civil population. Nothing won if Tyranids consume the whole population as well. Better rebuild the infrastructure elsewhere than die. Remember: Tau don't think territorial.

They don't think territorially? Then why do they even bother inhabiting planets to begin with? By your logic they should be staying entirely space bound, in mobile habitats. They shouldn't be going on planets, building factories, etc. And yet, they do.

Tau value lives more than territory. They'd prefer to kill a million Xenos than take their planet with no casualties to the Xenos, and save a million Tau than save Tau territory. But obviously they value territory as important.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
Soladrin wrote:Or outrun an army that posses FTL travel.

The tau do have FTL. You can't actually be a space empire without it. The nids have FTL too right?

Nids have a form of FTL where they shut of the gravitational pull of the universe behind them and are then pulled forwards by the universe ahead of them. How they manage to bypass the speed of light when doing this is beyond me.

**nomotog**

TrollPie wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
1.) Dal’yth is a home planet, not a small colony. So Tau are able to evacuate a bigger population.

So how big is it's population? I've heard of Tau planets having several billion (apocalypse I think) but I've also heard of them being far smaller than double digit billion hive worlds (Kill Team.) Saying "its a major population" doesnt tell me how many people it actually has.

GW has never published any solid figures on pretty much anything. Dal'yth could be a tiny moon with farms taking up half the space or a world twice the size of Terra with cities underwater and in the sky.

2.) Tau don't evacuate for fun. They evacuate to save the civil population. Nothing won if Tyranids consume the whole population as well. Better rebuild the infrastructure elsewhere than die. Remember: Tau don't think territorial.

They don't think territorially? Then why do they even bother inhabiting planets to begin with? By your logic they should be staying entirely space bound, in mobile habitats. They shouldn't be going on planets, building factories, etc. And yet, they do.
Tau value lives more than territory. They'd prefer to kill a million Xenos than take their planet with no casualties to the Xenos, and save a million Tau than save Tau territory. But obviously they value territory as important.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
Soladrin wrote:Or outrun an army that posses FTL travel.

The tau do have FTL. You can't actually be a space empire without it. The nids have FTL too right?

Nids have a form of FTL where they shut of the gravitational pull of the universe behind them and are then pulled forwards by the universe ahead of them. How they manage to bypass the speed of light when doing this is beyond me.

Dal'yth is a merchant and trading planet with lots of alien visitors. cosmopolitan. Picture big and buzzing with people and trade.

So do the nids move faster or slower then the tau? I don't know if any hard speeds have been posted about them.

**Connor MacLeod**

If we're talking about the Narvhal style transit ability (rather than warp style they used to have - I'll let other people argue about whether they still have that or not, especially for their scouting elements) it seems to be some magic gravity fold-space type drive between point A and point B, which has all sorts of unpleasant consequneces for the surroundings.

FTL wise I'd guess it's no better or worse than other forms of attack. Given that Tyranids have been encountered in various places across the galaxy in a matter of a few years or decades in contrast to their initial penetration on the Eastern Fringe (nevrmind navigating around to come at the galaxy from below) I'm guessing they must be capble of at least matching non-Navigator warp speeds, if not touch onto the low end of the Navigator warp speeds (EG across the galaxy in years.)

**Kroothawk**

Kanluwen wrote:You can't rebuild anything if there's no atmosphere to build within.

Maybe I wasn't suggesting, they should chose a barren rock in space or a sun to start a new colony

BTW Kroot Warspheres can warp-travel only to inhabitable planets (no explanation given), so finding these planets or even traveling to these through the warp is possible.

Connor MacLeod wrote:They don't think territorially? Then why do they even bother inhabiting planets to begin with? By your logic they should be staying entirely space bound, in mobile habitats. They shouldn't be going on planets, building factories, etc. And yet, they do.

As said above, Tau value life more than territory. Staying at home with all the infrastructure is pragmatic, as long as you don't face a hive fleet. Then it is pragmatic to evacuate the civilian population than to face certain death. The military will try to fight the enemy off. But whatever the outcome, the Tau will survive.

BTW, the Air caste live in Orbital stations, but they are adapted to low gravity.

**-Loki-**

TrollPie wrote:Nids have a form of FTL where they shut of the gravitational pull of the universe behind them and are then pulled forwards by the universe ahead of them. How they manage to bypass the speed of light when doing this is beyond me.

It works by using the target planetary systems gravitational field to kind of collapse space. It makes no sense, but that's how it works. It also really feths up the arget planet by causing massive tectonic upheaval from the gravitational forces unleashed on the planet.

The difference is Tyranids don't have or want a galctic 'Empire'. They eat a planet and move on, leaving basically a huge rock in its wake.

**Kanluwen**

Kroothawk wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You can't rebuild anything if there's no atmosphere to build within.

Maybe I wasn't suggesting, they should chose a barren rock in space or a sun to start a new colony
BTW Kroot Warspheres can warp-travel only to inhabitable planets (no explanation given), so finding these planets or even traveling to these through the warp is possible.

So your solution is that they only go to inhabitable planets(which usually are inhabited)?

I understand you weren't saying that "they should choose a barren rock in space or a sun to start a new colony". The problem is that the Tau are going to run out of inhabitable planets because of the Tyranids leaving dead and lifeless worlds in their wake.

Interestingly enough, the Tyranids also go only for "inhabitable planets", so that poses a problem.

**agnosto**

So the Vespid are safe. Sounds great, they can all just go live with them.

"Hey cousin Ickit, we're moving in!"

**nomotog**

-Loki- wrote:
TrollPie wrote:Nids have a form of FTL where they shut of the gravitational pull of the universe behind them and are then pulled forwards by the universe ahead of them. How they manage to bypass the speed of light when doing this is beyond me.

It works by using the target planetary systems gravitational field to kind of collapse space. It makes no sense, but that's how it works. It also really feths up the arget planet by causing massive tectonic upheaval from the gravitational forces unleashed on the planet.

The difference is Tyranids don't have or want a galctic 'Empire'. They eat a planet and move on, leaving basically a huge rock in its wake.

Dose this mean that the nids are only able to travel to planets?

**-Loki-**

nomotog wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
TrollPie wrote:Nids have a form of FTL where they shut of the gravitational pull of the universe behind them and are then pulled forwards by the universe ahead of them. How they manage to bypass the speed of light when doing this is beyond me.

It works by using the target planetary systems gravitational field to kind of collapse space. It makes no sense, but that's how it works. It also really feths up the arget planet by causing massive tectonic upheaval from the gravitational forces unleashed on the planet.

The difference is Tyranids don't have or want a galctic 'Empire'. They eat a planet and move on, leaving basically a huge rock in its wake.

Dose this mean that the nids are only able to travel to planets?

Planetary systems. When they get close enough, they drop into sublight speed and crawl their way. If they can't use the Narvhal to get there, they go into hibernation and crawl their way.

The Narvhal also makes no mention of extra-galactic travel. It needs to be able to see the target to do this, so I'd guess they'd have to crawl at sublight speed a great distance before they see a galaxy they like.

**CpatTom**

Kanluwen wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You can't rebuild anything if there's no atmosphere to build within.

Maybe I wasn't suggesting, they should chose a barren rock in space or a sun to start a new colony
BTW Kroot Warspheres can warp-travel only to inhabitable planets (no explanation given), so finding these planets or even traveling to these through the warp is possible.

So your solution is that they only go to inhabitable planets(which usually are inhabited)?

I understand you weren't saying that "they should choose a barren rock in space or a sun to start a new colony". The problem is that the Tau are going to run out of inhabitable planets because of the Tyranids leaving dead and lifeless worlds in their wake.

Interestingly enough, the Tyranids also go only for "inhabitable planets", so that poses a problem.

Tau leaders would figure some way to get the IoM involved in fending off the hive fleet. Given that a Hive fleet the size posed in the problem above would, as the Emperor's Faithful on Dakka have pointed out, either eat through the Tau Empire and threaten the eastern fringe of Man, or chase the Tau into the Imperium, where all the tasty alternatives to blue men are.

So, Tau pick up. Stop by to say high to the Ultramarines, and then make a bee line to another fringe of the Galaxy that the IoM will have to leave undefended to turn back the tide of Tyranid approaching from the east.

The Tau take the long game.

**nomotog**

Well it seems clear that the tau couldn't stop or force back a hive fleet, but could they weather one. You know batten down the hatches and keep an eye out for gene stealer cults. Present such a hard target that the fleet flows around them.

**-Loki-**

CpatTom wrote:Tau leaders would figure some way to get the IoM involved in fending off the hive fleet. Given that a Hive fleet the size posed in the problem above would, as the Emperor's Faithful on Dakka have pointed out, either eat through the Tau Empire and threaten the eastern fringe of Man, or chase the Tau into the Imperium, where all the tasty alternatives to blue men are.

They already threaten the Imperium on the Eastern Fringe. That's where the majority of the fleets are arriving. The reason the Imperium stepped in against Gorgon was because they were already there, and they were threatened as well as the Tau. It was sensible to ally with the Tau. If the Imperium is not there fighting already, there's little chance they're going to go save an enemy. They'd probably see it as beneficial, as the Tyranids would wipe out a thorn in their side for them. They've already consumed Tau and fought them, so there's little more adaptions they can get anyway, and the Tau might just deplete some biomass in their demise.

**ChiliPowderKeg**

How 'bout we ask Mr. Hoare?

900'th post!

**CpatTom**

-Loki- wrote:
CpatTom wrote:Tau leaders would figure some way to get the IoM involved in fending off the hive fleet. Given that a Hive fleet the size posed in the problem above would, as the Emperor's Faithful on Dakka have pointed out, either eat through the Tau Empire and threaten the eastern fringe of Man, or chase the Tau into the Imperium, where all the tasty alternatives to blue men are.

They already threaten the Imperium on the Eastern Fringe. That's where the majority of the fleets are arriving. The reason the Imperium stepped in against Gorgon was because they were already there, and they were threatened as well as the Tau. It was sensible to ally with the Tau. If the Imperium is not there fighting already, there's little chance they're going to go save an enemy. They'd probably see it as beneficial, as the Tyranids would wipe out a thorn in their side for them. They've already consumed Tau and fought them, so there's little more adaptions they can get anyway, and the Tau might just deplete some biomass in their demise.

I was not clear enough. Man is not coming to the Tau's aid. The Tau are packing up shop and running. The Tau only have to skip into IoM space long enough to leave.

Any Nid threat large enough to displace the Tau Empire, would require Military resources to be drawn away from somewhere. The Tau go there instead.

**-Loki-**

Another point - can the Tau run? Aren't they restricted to where they are due to a combination of their slow FTL travel and their relatively short lifespan?

Also, military forces being drawn away from somewhere else... Yeah, it doesn't work like that. The PDF and sector Navy are still there. They're not drawn to go fight elsewhere, because that would be stupid.

**CpatTom**

They are quite efficient at evacuation, what with there all being orderly and what not, so they shouldn't be suprised (at least no the entire Empire, maybe the Eastern most worlds get nom'd, but they hold the line for the rest to get up and out). Again, they dont have to be faster than the Nids very long. Just long enough to be the delicious bio treat that is farther away than the IoM.

The Demuirig (SP) are ship bound. The Tau adapted others tech before.

No real source info on a Tau Bio Ships, Habidomes, whatever. I'd have to cede the argument to someone with a lil more know how.

Edit: The PDF wouldnt, but certainly a portion of the Navy would. Even if they didnt, The entire Tau Empire (Not just the Tau themselves, but the whole bunch of Xenos) would be attacking. Not a pirate raiding party.

**-Loki-**

This still dances around the question in the OP - could they withstand a hive fleet? Running isn't doing that. Running is retreating.

**CpatTom**

That is the way Man would think about it. Must stand and die. No retreat, no alternatives! And its exactly that thinking that the Tau are counting on. Its a tactical withdrawal until an alternative strategy with a greater chance at success can be developed. And it works because the IoM are going to stand and hold the line with their masses in a war of attrition depleting the surrounding systems military garrisons. Leaving perfectly habitable worlds open to "Negotiation".

**nomotog**

CpatTom wrote:That is the way Man would think about it. Must stand and die. No retreat, no alternatives! And its exactly that thinking that the Tau are counting on. Its a tactical withdrawal until an alternative strategy with a greater chance at success can be developed. And it works because the IoM are going to stand and hold the line with their masses in a war of attrition depleting the surrounding systems military garrisons. Leaving perfectly habitable worlds open to "Negotiation".

I could see that. It would be much better to lose a world to the tau then to lose it to the nids, but can that overcome the IoMs crazy irrational hate. "The Grater good is coming at you from my bolter!"

**-Loki-**

CpatTom wrote:That is the way Man would think about it. Must stand and die. No retreat, no alternatives! And its exactly that thinking that the Tau are counting on. Its a tactical withdrawal until an alternative strategy with a greater chance at success can be developed. And it works because the IoM are going to stand and hold the line with their masses in a war of attrition depleting the surrounding systems military garrisons. Leaving perfectly habitable worlds open to "Negotiation".

That' is still not withstanding a hive fleets assault. it's running and settling somewhere else just to survive. There actually is a difference. Withstanding the assault doesn't mean dying, it means fighting them off and surviving.

Are you admitting the Tau could not do that, and would just die unless they ran?

**CpatTom**

nomotog wrote:
CpatTom wrote:That is the way Man would think about it. Must stand and die. No retreat, no alternatives! And its exactly that thinking that the Tau are counting on. Its a tactical withdrawal until an alternative strategy with a greater chance at success can be developed. And it works because the IoM are going to stand and hold the line with their masses in a war of attrition depleting the surrounding systems military garrisons. Leaving perfectly habitable worlds open to "Negotiation".

I could see that. It would be much better to lose a world to the tau then to lose it to the nids, but can that overcome the IoMs crazy irrational hate. "The Grater good is coming at you from my bolter!"

Fringe worlds have a way of appreciating the Tech that comes along with a healthy trading relationship with the Tau. There is a great amount of hatred and fear directed at Xenos (Tau included); however, For the Emperor shows a wonderful example of a world that slowly adopts a lax outlook towards the Tau presence due to the slow cultural melding the Tau (water caste especially) do so well. You convert the youth of a population, and one day you have converted the entirety of the population.

Edit: Loki wrote: "Are you admitting the Tau could not do that, and would just die unless they ran?"
I'm admitting that the argument is irrelevant. If it was less than likely they would be able to fend the attack they would fall back and regroup. The best weapon the Tau have in this case to with stand the assault would be the IoM.

**nomotog**

CpatTom wrote:
nomotog wrote:
CpatTom wrote:That is the way Man would think about it. Must stand and die. No retreat, no alternatives! And its exactly that thinking that the Tau are counting on. Its a tactical withdrawal until an alternative strategy with a greater chance at success can be developed. And it works because the IoM are going to stand and hold the line with their masses in a war of attrition depleting the surrounding systems military garrisons. Leaving perfectly habitable worlds open to "Negotiation".

I could see that. It would be much better to lose a world to the tau then to lose it to the nids, but can that overcome the IoMs crazy irrational hate. "The Grater good is coming at you from my bolter!"

Fringe worlds have a way of appreciating the Tech that comes along with a healthy trading relationship with the Tau. There is a great amount of hatred and fear directed at Xenos (Tau included); however, For the Emperor shows a wonderful example of a world that slowly adopts a lax outlook towards the Tau presence due to the slow cultural melding the Tau (water caste especially) do so well. You convert the youth of a population, and one day you have converted the entirety of the population.

Well that's the worlds themselves. Worlds that almost go rouge just by talking with the tau. Talking with the IoM it's self, it's SMs, it's IG, its IN. That is where things get hard. Some times they can work things out temporary. Some times... Well there is a reason that tau diplomats wear shields.

Really I think we can define withstanding as: After the fleet is gone, the tau are living on the tau home world. If they can manage that, that should count as withstanding.