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TrollPie wrote:
Where did I say anything about the rules? I said that BL authors massively exaggerate their power. I never made any comparisons to the rules.

Then what basis are you using for saying they are "nowhere near as powerful as BL novels and the like say they are"?

I'm pretty certain you have no portal which allows you to hopscotch between our world and the 40k, so I'm going to reliably assume that you are in fact not taking Titans out for a spin to see their power yourself.

You're either referring to the rules (which are purposely toned down for gameplay balance purposes) or the background, which is used as the 'framework' which the rules are extracted from.

Kanluwen wrote:

You're either referring to the rules (which are purposely toned down for gameplay balance purposes) or the background, which is used as the 'framework' which the rules are extracted from.

I'm referring to the FW pieces describing their size and power. They're the most solid figures GW have ever put out concerning Titans, since they actually include numbers.

TrollPie wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

You're either referring to the rules (which are purposely toned down for gameplay balance purposes) or the background, which is used as the 'framework' which the rules are extracted from.

I'm referring to the FW pieces describing their size and power. They're the most solid figures GW have ever put out concerning Titans, since they actually include numbers.

And the FW pieces describing their size and power are in line with the Black Library pieces.

So either you're reading the most absolutely incorrect Black Library pieces or you're getting the 'wrong' sense from the FW pieces.

Kanluwen wrote:They lost one research station, part of a Sept world, and what amounted to a sectoral fleet.

I'd also like to point out that if a delayed Imperial Guard/Navy contingent hadn't arrived they likely would have lost the Sept world.

Doesn't that specific codex entry make it rather obvious that the Imperial forces only helped the Tau mop up the remaining tyranids? They didn't do any of the heavy fighting themselves

Retribution wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:They lost one research station, part of a Sept world, and what amounted to a sectoral fleet.

I'd also like to point out that if a delayed Imperial Guard/Navy contingent hadn't arrived they likely would have lost the Sept world.

Doesn't that specific codex entry make it rather obvious that the Imperial forces only helped the Tau mop up the remaining tyranids? They didn't do any of the heavy fighting themselves

Nope, it says the opposite.

"Acting in concert, the Imperial and Tau fleets cut deep into Hive Fleet Gorgon. Casualties are heavy, but almost all the bio-vessels are destroyed."

You are right, however, in that the Imperial forces helped them "mop up" the remaining Tyranids...if "mopping up" means "purge the Tyranids from the planet" and "combined with the disparate nature of weaponry and tactics employed by the Tau and Imperial Guard, prevents the rapid adaptation that plagued the Tau in earlier battles".

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

nomotog wrote:Tau do have the ability to make drones easy. I base this on the fact that everyone gets a drone. Everyone. Form diplomats to battle suits to farmers. The tau have drones coming out of the wazoo. I doubt they can drive tanks though, or they would have them out driveing tanks.

Oh sure, they can make a lot of them and easily. Just not as easily as suggested, otherwise the Tau would simply be undergoing continual and quick expansion without pause. They will not be able to create enough to out-fight a Tyranid Hive Fleet in attrition.

They also still need Tau operators around, otherwise they'd just send in entire armies of Drones.

Drone production has nothing to do with slow space travel limiting Tau expansion...not to mention the fact that the tau prefer not to fight

TrollPie wrote:
That's probably a Hydrophant you're thinking of. They're the Tyranid equivalent of a Warlod titan. However I don't think any Tyranid beast can single-handedly take down a Titan legion, so it's probably a case of poor writing.

Maybe. It was in the Tyranid Codex. Something along the lines of the Titan Legion keeping the Tyranids at bay, and then the fella coming along, destroying the Titans, and even while being taken down by the basilica guns' tearing massive rents in the walls. I can only assume that the Titan Legion had Warlord Titans due to the fact that it was such an important Forgeworld, although that may not be correct. The Tyranid Codex has a fair amount of bad background in my opinion.

Retribution wrote:Drone production has nothing to do with slow space travel limiting Tau expansion...not to mention the fact that the tau prefer not to fight

Slow Warp travel hasn't been much of a concern to the Tau thus far, as they aren't large enough. The Tau prefer not to fight mainly because they don't want the losses and like to rule over more species'. If Drones are as potent as posited, they'd simply be an ever-expanding ripple. They aren't. They have to pick and choose their battles, and they have a lot of living forces doing the fighting.

Pretty sure no single military force can withstand the full might of a full on Tyranid Hive Fleet except for perhaps Orkz and the "New Necrons"

Mostly cuz Boyz never stop growing and something like a World Engine sounds like it could break Terra's defenses.


As for previous victories, pretty much all are thanks to multiple races fighting on multiple fronts. So no, the Tau would certainly not stand a chance alone.

I've never felt happier to see BeefCakeSoup in a Tau thread.

Well-played sir. Well-played.

They can survive splinter fleets (like gorgon).

But a full blown hive fleet? They'll put up a fight but eventually lose.

TrollPie wrote:
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nomotog wrote:

It probably not very biomass effective. Locking up all your biomass into one giant creature is a risky move that could stall your biomass economy. Imagine if they kill your hierophants; all that biomass down the drain.

Actually, unless the carcass is burned, the nids just eat the corpse and get all their biomass back.

Actually that brings up a question. Do nids lose any biomass to food costs, or is it always more more more? Can they starve if they don't find anything to eat?

Kanluwen wrote:I've never felt happier to see BeefCakeSoup in a Tau thread.

Well-played sir. Well-played.

Even Fanboy Tau Trolls know the limits.

I'd assume so. Every one of their ships is a living creature. Whilst the Tyranids on the ground are just there to kill, the vast Hive Ships and attack vessels have to survive from engagement to engagement, and all of their movements require resources. They can go into stasis, but since their entire existence is driven by a need to continue the species they have to attack. It all requires energy, which is found in biomass. So yes, they do need it to survive.

Kanluwen wrote:

TrollPie wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

You're either referring to the rules (which are purposely toned down for gameplay balance purposes) or the background, which is used as the 'framework' which the rules are extracted from.

I'm referring to the FW pieces describing their size and power. They're the most solid figures GW have ever put out concerning Titans, since they actually include numbers.

And the FW pieces describing their size and power are in line with the Black Library pieces.

So either you're reading the most absolutely incorrect Black Library pieces or you're getting the 'wrong' sense from the FW pieces.

BL books often seem to present them as over 100 metres high and capable of destroying entire cities.


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Oh God, the biggest Tau fanboi on the sight thinks the Tau wouldn't stand a chance.

I think it might be time to reconsider my position.
...Is it just me, or is this the first time in internet history that someone has changed their mind after a discussion?

iproxtaco wrote:I'd assume so. Every one of their ships is a living creature. Whilst the Tyranids on the ground are just there to kill, the vast Hive Ships and attack vessels have to survive from engagement to engagement, and all of their movements require resources. They can go into stasis, but since their entire existence is driven by a need to continue the species they have to attack. It all requires energy, which is found in biomass. So yes, they do need it to survive.

Then that would be another reason for them to use small creatures over big ones. Large creatures use more energy to move about.


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TrollPie wrote:
Oh God, the biggest Tau fanboi on the sight thinks the Tau wouldn't stand a chance.

I think it might be time to reconsider my position.
...Is it just me, or is this the first time in internet history that someone has changed their mind after a discussion?

Yes. Yes it is.

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I'd assume so. Every one of their ships is a living creature. Whilst the Tyranids on the ground are just there to kill, the vast Hive Ships and attack vessels have to survive from engagement to engagement, and all of their movements require resources. They can go into stasis, but since their entire existence is driven by a need to continue the species they have to attack. It all requires energy, which is found in biomass. So yes, they do need it to survive.

Then that would be another reason for them to use small creatures over big ones. Large creatures use more energy to move about.

And yet larger creatures are better for specific roles. A Hive Tyrant or a Carnifex can rip Tanks apart, the former controls vast areas of the swarm. They won't have a fantastic chance at taking down Imperial Titans if they use nothing but Termaguants, a Bio-titan however can go one-to-one and win. It's simple resource allocation. The larger ones are more expensive and more effective, so there are less needed to fulfil tasks, the smaller ones are less expensive and more are needed to fulfil tasks.

Large creatures like Carnifex and biotitans and the like ARE held in reserve for specific purposes. They're the last, heaviest strike the 'Nids will deliver if there is resistance.

The first wave is all the smallest, most numerous, and most expendable assets - gaunts and the like. THey are used both to weaken the enemy as well as to probe and test his defenses and to gauge where resistance is strongest. This is supplemented by use of forces like Lictors and other scouting troops to do recon, assassination, and sabotage. Then they unleash another wave (or more) which will incorporate heavier Tyranid troop types (you might get more Stealers, WArriors, etc.) to start a serious assault and crush opposition. And if things still stand up, then they unleash the Carnifexes and other heavy troops to try and break resistance.

All the while this is going on, the Nids are doing various things. They'll be setting up the stuff to tyranoform the planet - spore chimneys and the little digestion vats. They'll probably be sucking up any available biomatter "behind" their lines (including corposes) to contine fabricating new troops to throw into the battle (if need be.) They'll be unleashing all manner of spores (from microscopic biowarfare nastiness to large high explosive spore mines, which could even rank up to potential thermonuclear ones of the type used in space combat.) They will use burrowing troops. They'll use Zoanthropes and the other 'Thrope" types to fething around with things. The'll be bombarding the planet (with more mycetic spores at least, but asteroids, pyro acidic bombardments, kinetic strikes etc. Hell if you go back into earlier fluff they're even using particle beams and warp blasts.) They may use genestealer broods, or already-laid hormagaunt broods (who nest, reproduce on planet, and multiply in preparation for an assault as further insurrection elements.)

And if the 'Nids win, any remaining organic troops, Tyranid or otherwise, will be killed and their biomatter devoured, tossed into the digestion pools, and sucked up into the waiting hive ships. They will suck off the atmosphere and oceans (you want to know how impressive that is? Earth's oceans are something like 1/100th the mass of the planet) They strip various minerals and materials from the surface of the planet (I rmemeber the GW website having an article on tyranoforming where they mentioned the Tyranids strip off layers of the crust for their purposes. Tyranid chitin is at least partily sillicate in nature, after all.)

And then they use those ressources to rebuil dand replenish their forces, perhaps even expandin gthem if they can build more hive ships, and then go on to the new assault. They are a force purpose built for human wave, attrition warfare style of combat, and that is not a trivial thing to consider. Losses do not matter to the tyranids, because they will have just had to kill off those troops later anyhow.

TrollPie wrote:
BL books often seem to present them as over 100 metres high and capable of destroying entire cities.

Very rarely do they actually out and out state exactly what kind of Titan it is.

And Titans, if left unchecked, are capable of destroying entire cities.

It won't be in a single shot for a Warhound or a Reaver, most likely, but it can be done in the course of an afternoon.

Tau evacuated their home planet Dal’yth when the Imperial fleet approached for an attack (Savage Scars novel). They would do the same if a big hive fleet approaches. So whether or not they win the fight, the race would survive easily. Only stupid humans would run into close combat with a carnifex and let their people die.

Kroothawk wrote:They would do the same if a big hive fleet approaches. So whether or not they win the fight, the race would survive easily.

Easily? What if the rest of the Tau worlds were consumed as well? Where would they run to? How long would they last without a manufacturing base?

TrollPie wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:.

TrollPie wrote:Heirophants are only roughly as powerful as Warhound titans. At about 15 metres (7 stories approx.) tall they're vulnerable to massed fire from anything of HB size or bigger. Titans in general are nowhere near as powerful as BL novels and the like say they are.

I don't think I'm talking about Heirophants. If I recall correctly it was the creature used on Gryphonne IV and seemed to single-handedly take down a Titan Legion and breach the basilica since only the mighty guns of the basilica were capable of killing it.

That's probably a Hydrophant you're thinking of. They're the Tyranid equivalent of a Warlod titan. However I don't think any Tyranid beast can single-handedly take down a Titan legion, so it's probably a case of poor writing.

It was a Viragon. Not called that by name, obviously, but it fits the description. A large, snake like organism resembling a Trygon, but the size of a Reaver titan. Larger than a Viragon was, but basically the same thing, a huge Trygon. A Hydraphant resembles a huge Heirophant, which is definitely not like a Trygon.

Whether you think it could or not, or even if it was a case of poor writing, makes absolutely no difference. Fluffwise, now, that creature, presumeably a Viragon, destroyed Legio Annihilator in studio source material.

Harrower wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:The Imperial navy sacrificed a massive number of ships to take down one Custodian, solo. This would be over the size of a standard battlefleet as this was a full crusade.

What is the source on this?

I know a Custodian (the A'Rho) was killed by a very small Imperial Fleet at Taros, killing only a cruiser and 3 Firestorm Frigates down before dying.
And the Firestar was wrecked facing Hivefleet Gorgon, so clearly not a major problem for the nids.

Based on the Description of the Custodian in the Forge World site, as well as a Black Library novel. (I don't remember which one)

It was the A'Rho, but it had been maimed in massive combat with the crusade fleet before being ambushed as it fled to make field repairs.


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I realise I am not using the best sources.

Or using the info from the sources right. In neither does it say an entire Crusade Fleet was nearly destroyed to take down one Custodian.

Quite the opposite. All evidence points to a Custodian being noticebaly less lethal than an Imperial battleship, both in the fluff and game stats 9which aren't that useful I grant except as a supportive source).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:They would do the same if a big hive fleet approaches. So whether or not they win the fight, the race would survive easily.

Easily? What if the rest of the Tau worlds were consumed as well? Where would they run to? How long would they last without a manufacturing base?

I dunno, ask the Demiurg maybe since that's what happened to them and they still exist and even have a high tech capacity since they provided the Tau with Ion-Cannon tech.

Since when did the Demiurg have their worlds consumed by Tyranids?

Since people have started saying that the Demiurg = Squat, which is unbased nonsense.

iproxtaco wrote:Since when did the Demiurg have their worlds consumed by Tyranids?

It's one of the theories as to why they don't have a homeworld. I may have that confused with how the squats ended though. meh. Anyway, both the Nicassaur and Demiurg don't have homeworlds and don't seem to be the worse for it.

agnosto wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Since when did the Demiurg have their worlds consumed by Tyranids?

It's one of the theories as to why they don't have a homeworld. I may have that confused with how the squats ended though. meh. Anyway, both the Nicassaur and Demiurg don't have homeworlds and don't seem to be the worse for it.

Which is a good point, but I thought you may have been confusing them with GW past attempt at making Space Dwarves, which we know were all of a sudden killed by Tyranids. The Demiurg and Nissacar would be able to at least stop them from becoming extinct.

As already noted, the ability of the Tau to evacuate is not contested, assuming they have enough time (EG they don't get attacked by the Nids or otherwise disrupted while they try to evacuate.) Of course we also don't know how big a population it had to begin with - a few million tau are easier to evacuate than billions would be, for example.

And even if they do evacuate this is only a temporary solution at best, since it only delays conflict. And evacuating, again as noted, basically means they give up all the economic and military iinfrastructure they invest on the planet which will have to be replaced down the line - this is NOT trivial for them, and you just end up strengthening the Tyranid force when they consume all the planet's biomass and oceans without them having to expend military forces to take it.

As far as going "nomadic" goes - if they have the capability to exist purely in space-based form without any degradation to their empire or capability, why do they even bother with planets to begin with? Taking a planet simply gives your enemies a target to attack. I also question whether we know enough about the Demiurg or the Nicassar (the bulk of the information on either coming from BFG as I recall) to speculate on their actual societies.